Steve Thomas Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) I first posed the question on November 22, 2004 in the Education Forum JFK Assassination Seminars “How did the Police First Learn that Oswald Lived at 1026 N. Beckley?” http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/2331-how-did-the-police-first-learn-of-1026-n-beckley/ At 12:45 PM, a call went out over the Dallas Police Department’s Dispatch Network. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/ “Attention Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male, all squads. Attention all squads. The suspect in the shooting at approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle. Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male about thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches tall, one hundred sixty-five pounds, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time, or information. 12:45.” No one knows where this description came from. At 2:40 PM, W.E. Potts, B.L. Senkel and Lt. E.L. Cunningham were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley. Potts wrote in his after-action report (Box 2, Folder# 9, Item# 32) http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm that after he finished taking some affidavits, Fritz dispatched them to the Beckely St address at 2:40 and they arrived at Beckley at 3:00PM. Detective B.L. Senkel also said in his after action report (Dallas Police Archives Box 3, Folder# 12, Item#1) that they arrived at 1026 N. Beckley at 3:00PM. When they arrived, housekeeper at 1026 N. Beckley, Earlene Roberts told the Warren Commission that when the police arrived they were looking for Harvey Lee Oswald. WC testimony of Earlene Roberts April 8, 1964 http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/robertse.htm Mr. BALL. Do you remember the day the President was shot? Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I remember it---who would forget that? Mr. BALL. And the police officers came out there? Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Do you remember what they said? Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was Will Fritz' men---it was plainclothesmen and I was at the back doing something and Mr. Johnson answered the door and they identified themselves and then he called me. Mr. BALL. What did they say? Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they asked him if there was a Harvey Lee Oswald there. According to Will Fritz, someone, whose name he could not remember gave him Oswald's Beckley address before he began interrogating Oswald: (4H207) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=34#relPageId=215&tab=page Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet. On the evening of 11/22/64, a cable was sent from Washington to Fort Macdill in Florida concerning the FPCC, In part, the cable reads: https://ia601309.us.archive.org/22/items/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/AI%20JFK%2001.pdf 112th IINTELLIGENCE CORPS GROUP SPOT REPORT (REGION II) http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/A%20Disk/Army%20Intelligence%20112th%20INTC%20San%20Antonio/Item%2007.pdf Date Sent: 22 Nov 63 Time Sent: 17:30 hrs INTC, Region II, Dallas, Texas Spot Report No. 417 Subject: Lee Harvey Oswald Reference to Previous Reports: Spot Report No. 415 Time, Date, and Place: 17:15 hrs., 22 Nov, 1963, Dallas Personnel, Organization, or Installation Involved: SUBJECT and Dallas Police Summary: “Assistant Chief, Don Stringfellow, Intelligence Section, Dallas Police Dept., notified Region II that Oswald had confessed to the shooting of President Kennedy and Police Officer Tippitt. The only additional information they obtained from Oswald at this time is that he defected to Cuba in 1959, and that he is a card carrying member of the Communist Party.” My conclusion back in 2004 was that the information concerning Oswald living on Beckley came from some source in military intelligence. Others have come to the same conclusion.http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=8636.0;wap2 On 7/20/2020, in the Education Forum, Mark Stevens published some clippings from the AP Wire Service photos. Clippings from The Bulletin, November 25, 1963. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26529-was-it-really-just-a-mole-hunt-about-oswald/page/39/#comments Included was this paragraph: Dallas Assistant Police Chief, George Lumpkin was the Commandant of the 4150th U.S.Army Reserve Training School in Dallas. TX. https://newspaperarchive.com/tags/george-lumpkin/?pc=24581&psi=94&pci=7&pt=23960&ob=1/ Colonel, B.B. (Boise) Smith. Director, Civil Defense and Disaster Commission. Dallas Police Department, Deputy Chief of Police was also a member of the 4150th’s faculty. https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth782328/m1/2/ Col. B.B. Smith Daily Palmer Rustler October 14, 1954 page 2 (Member of the faculty 4150th U.S.Army Reserve Training School) https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth782328/m1/2/ He Reported directly to Chief Curry. Batchelor Exhibit 5002 https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf When asked how he identified the killer of Patrolman, J.D. Tippit, Sergeant Gerald Hill told the Warren Commission, http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm “We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car. Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a Jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair." Gerald Hill did not identify who this man was that identified the killer. I don't know what this all means for sure. What I am thinking right now is that members of the U.S. Army Reserves had access to a dossier of a blue-eyed, 5'10" 165 lb, wavy brown-hair headed Harvey Lee Oswald that they handed over to the Dallas Police Department, They told the police, "This is the guy you're looking for. His name is Harvey Lee Oswald and he lives over on Beckley" Who was the source for the assassin’s description sent out at 12:45 PM? I think it was the Dallas Police themselves. Steve Thomas Edited July 25, 2020 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stevens Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 Further, how was it decided which description to broadcast? Of the many of the suspect that day, I also have this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jolliffe Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) On 7/23/2020 at 9:27 AM, Steve Thomas said: I first posed the question on November 22, 2004 in the Education Forum JFK Assassination Seminars “How did the Police First Learn that Oswald Lived at 1026 N. Beckley?” http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/2331-how-did-the-police-first-learn-of-1026-n-beckley/ At 12:45 PM, a call went out over the Dallas Police Department’s Dispatch Network. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/ “Attention Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male, all squads. Attention all squads. The suspect in the shooting at approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle. Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male about thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches tall, one hundred sixty-five pounds, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time, or information. 12:45.” No one knows where this description came from. At 2:40 PM, W.E. Potts, B.L. Senkel and Lt. E.L. Cunningham were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley. Potts wrote in his after-action report (Box 2, Folder# 9, Item# 32) http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm that after he finished taking some affidavits, Fritz dispatched them to the Beckely St address at 2:40 and they arrived at Beckley at 3:00PM. Detective B.L. Senkel also said in his after action report (Dallas Police Archives Box 3, Folder# 12, Item#1) that they arrived at 1026 N. Beckley at 3:00PM. When they arrived, housekeeper at 1026 N. Beckley, Earlene Roberts told the Warren Commission that when the police arrived they were looking for Harvey Lee Oswald. WC testimony of Earlene Roberts April 8, 1964 http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/robertse.htm Mr. BALL. Do you remember the day the President was shot? Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I remember it---who would forget that? Mr. BALL. And the police officers came out there? Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Do you remember what they said? Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was Will Fritz' men---it was plainclothesmen and I was at the back doing something and Mr. Johnson answered the door and they identified themselves and then he called me. Mr. BALL. What did they say? Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they asked him if there was a Harvey Lee Oswald there. According to Will Fritz, someone, whose name he could not remember gave him Oswald's Beckley address before he began interrogating Oswald: (4H207) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=34#relPageId=215&tab=page Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet. On the evening of 11/22/64, a cable was sent from Washington to Fort Macdill in Florida concerning the FPCC, In part, the cable reads: https://ia601309.us.archive.org/22/items/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/AI%20JFK%2001.pdf 112th IINTELLIGENCE CORPS GROUP SPOT REPORT (REGION II) http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/A%20Disk/Army%20Intelligence%20112th%20INTC%20San%20Antonio/Item%2007.pdf Date Sent: 22 Nov 63 Time Sent: 17:30 hrs INTC, Region II, Dallas, Texas Spot Report No. 417 Subject: Lee Harvey Oswald Reference to Previous Reports: Spot Report No. 415 Time, Date, and Place: 17:15 hrs., 22 Nov, 1963, Dallas Personnel, Organization, or Installation Involved: SUBJECT and Dallas Police Summary: “Assistant Chief, Don Stringfellow, Intelligence Section, Dallas Police Dept., notified Region II that Oswald had confessed to the shooting of President Kennedy and Police Officer Tippitt. The only additional information they obtained from Oswald at this time is that he defected to Cuba in 1959, and that he is a card carrying member of the Communist Party.” My conclusion back in 2004 was that the information concerning Oswald living on Beckley came from some source in military intelligence. Others have come to the same conclusion.http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=8636.0;wap2 On 7/20/2020, in the Education Forum, Mark Stevens published some clippings from the AP Wire Service photos. Clippings from The Bulletin, November 25, 1963. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26529-was-it-really-just-a-mole-hunt-about-oswald/page/39/#comments Included was this paragraph: Dallas Assistant Police Chief, George Lumpkin was the Commandant of the 4150th U.S.Army Reserve Training School in Dallas. TX. https://newspaperarchive.com/tags/george-lumpkin/?pc=24581&psi=94&pci=7&pt=23960&ob=1/ Colonel, B.B. (Boise) Smith. Director, Civil Defense and Disaster Commission. Dallas Police Department, Deputy Chief of Police was also a member of the 4150th’s faculty. https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth782328/m1/2/ Col. B.B. Smith Daily Palmer Rustler October 14, 1954 page 2 (Member of the faculty 4150th U.S.Army Reserve Training School) https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth782328/m1/2/ He Reported directly to Chief Curry. Batchelor Exhibit 5002 https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf When asked how he identified the killer of Patrolman, J.D. Tippit, Sergeant Gerald Hill told the Warren Commission, http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm “We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car. Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a Jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair." Gerald Hill did not identify who this man was that identified the killer. I don't know what this all means for sure. What I am thinking right now is that members of the U.S. Army Reserves had access to a dossier of a blue-eyed, 5'10" 165 lb, wavy brown-hair headed Harvey Lee Oswald that they handed over to the Dallas Police Department, They told the police, "This is the guy you're looking for. His name is Harvey Lee Oswald and he lives over on Beckley" Who was the source for the assassin’s description sent out at 12:45 PM? I think it was the Dallas Police themselves. Steve Thomas Steve, Hmm. I wonder. J. Herbert Sawyer of the DPD said that an unknown Dallas Sheriff's Deputy was collecting statements from witnesses. And, this unknown deputy (somehow) knew that Charles Givens had (supposedly) witnessed the shooter, yet Givens was nowhere to be found. Further, Sawyer remembered calling in a description of Givens to the Dallas PD Dispatcher, yet that call was not in any of the transcripts before Sawyer when he testified to Belin in April of 1964. Sawyer hinted that the transcripts had been altered or edited! Mr. BELIN. I then notice on this radio log---I don't see anything more under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone as far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir?Mr. SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that department.Mr. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that depository?Mr. SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there.Mr. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy?Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description on him.Mr. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that?Mr. SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing from the building.He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some information about the man that did the shooting.Mr. BELIN. When you say about the man who did the shooting, did you know at that time who did the shooting?Mr. SAWYER. No.Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what time in the afternoon this was?Mr. SAWYER. Somewhere along in here; let's see if we can't find it.Mr. BELIN. This doesn't go past 1:53 p.m.Mr. SAWYER. What about your other transcript?Mr. BELIN. I have a transcript of another one here, at least I did have Steve, you and I agree that officially, of course, it was Sawyer's bland physical suspect description at 12/43 that was the reason for the 12:45 DPD Dispatch announcement. And we all know that the Warren Commission did NOT try to pin down the source of that description. Sawyer was no help at all: Mr. SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man?Mr. BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, that shows you at 12:43.Mr. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there.Mr. BELIN. Do you know this person's name?Mr. SAWYER. I do not.Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing?Mr. SAWYER. Except that he was--I don't remember what he was wearing. I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember about him.Mr. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young?Mr. SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could be a few years either way.Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you remember anything about him?Mr. SAWYER. I can't remember that much about him. I was real hazy about that.Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw the person with the rifle?Mr. SAWYER. I didn't go into detail with him except that from the best of my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him. But there were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. I got the description and sent him on over to the Sheriff's Office.Mr. BELIN. Inspector, do you remember anything else about this person who you say gave you the primary description?Mr. SAWYER. No, I do not, except that I did send him with an escort to the Sheriff's Office to give fuller or more complete detail.Mr. BELIN. Do you know if he was taken there to see a lineup at the police station?Mr. SAWYER. No.Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again?Mr. SAWYER. Not to my knowledge. So, we have Sawyer's sworn testimony that he received two different pieces of information: 1. The first - a description of the shooter from an unknown 35 year old male. Sawyer heard this man briefly and then sent him to the "Sheriff's Office." 2. The second - a Dallas Sheriff's deputy (unnamed and apparently unknown to Sawyer) had learned (somehow) that Charles Givens had information about the shooter, yet Givens was not around! Steve, I believe that if Sawyer was actually trying to conceal that the DPD itself was the source of the 12:45 description, he would not have named the Dallas Sheriff's department as his second source. Had Belin or the FBI wanted to track that deputy down, they could have done so easily. They did not because they had no interest in discovering from whom the Dallas Sheriff's deputy learned about Givens. (That person was a conspirator and would lead away from "Oswald". Therefore that person had to remain un-investigated.) In other words, if Sawyer was lying about the Dallas Sheriff's deputy, any FBI investigation would have revealed the lie, and therefore, I think Sawyer told the truth - the 12:45 description came from an unknown man, outside of the DPD. Further, I strongly suspect that this same unknown man was also very probably the source for the Dallas Sheriff's Office belief that Charles Givens had information about the shooter, even though the Sheriff's Office itself had not yet located or interviewed Givens! Steve, you've guessed that an unknown member of U.S. Army Reserves around 1: 25 pm may have told Gerald Hill at the Tippit scene about the "5'10" 165 lb. bushy brown haired" suspect. I would add the high probability that this same man - with a similar description of the suspect - was earlier in the TSBD around 12:43 pm and talked to both J. Herbert Sawyer of the DPD and then someone from the Dallas Sheriff's Office a few moments later. Edited July 25, 2020 by Paul Jolliffe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted July 25, 2020 Author Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said: Steve, you've guessed that an unknown member of U.S. Army Reserves around 1: 25 pm may have told Gerald Hill at the Tippit scene about the "5'10" 165 lb. bushy brown haired" suspect. Paul. No, I don't believe that there was any "unidentified man" who gave Gerald Hill a description of Tippit's killer. I believe Hill had that description in hand went out to the shooting scene. The idea that an eyewitness to a shooting (especially of a police officer) would walk up to a police investigator and tell him that he was an eyewitness to the shooting and that investigator would allow that witness to simply walk away and would not get that witness's name and address for use in a later trial simply defies all logic and common sense. The Harvey Lee Oswald dossier was a part part of the frame. Steve Thomas Edited July 25, 2020 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jolliffe Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said: Paul. No, I don't believe that there was any "unidentified man" who gave Gerald Hill a description of Tippit's killer. I believe Hill had that description in hand went out to the shooting scene. The idea that an eyewitness to a shooting (especially of a police officer) would walk up to a police investigator and tell him that he was an eyewitness to the shooting and that investigator would allow that witness to simply walk away and would not get that witness's name and address for use in a later trial simply defies all logic and common sense. Steve Thomas Intriguing. If so, then wouldn't Hill be a witting conspirator to Tippit's murder? After all, he arrived very shortly after the murder (within just a very few minutes) yet he already knew for whom to suspect? Hill must have been tipped off about the murder before it happened, right? I don't trust Sgt. Hill - he may well have been in on the framing of our "Oswald"after the fact. Yet his infamous call about the bullet casings found at the scene in which he identified the gun as an "automatic" (rather than the .38 later allegedly taken from "Oswald") would seem to indicate some naivety about what was to happen, exactly. (The Tippit shooter should have left shells behind that could be easily linked to "Oswald's" gun. But they weren't - the ballistics remained a mess.) What do you think about the mystery man in the TSBD with whom (very probably) both Sawyer and the unnamed Sheriff's deputy spoke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stevens Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 I'm quite certain this is the description attributed to Brennan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted July 25, 2020 Author Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said: Intriguing. If so, then wouldn't Hill be a witting conspirator to Tippit's murder? After all, he arrived very shortly after the murder (within just a very few minutes) yet he already knew for whom to suspect? Hill must have been tipped off about the murder before it happened, right? What do you think about the mystery man in the TSBD with whom (very probably) both Sawyer and the unnamed Sheriff's deputy spoke? Paul, I don't have any opinion on this TSBD mystery man. There were just too many people floating in and out of this crime scene. As far as Gerald Hill goes, I don't know when he got there, but from the Dispatch tapes: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm 1:19 Dispatch: No physical description Dispatch to 91(Ptm. Wentzel: 91, have a signal 19 west on Jefferson. No description at this time. (Pause) Suspect just passed 401 E Jefferson. 1:22 Dispatch: We have a description on this suspect over here on Jefferson. Last seen about 300 block of East Jefferson. He's a white male, about thirty, five eight, (siren) black hair, slender, wearing white jacket, a white shirt and dark slacks. (Sirens) The first time we hear from Gerald Hill was at 1:26PM - four minutes after Dispatch has broadcast a description of an entirely different man. 1:26 from 91: What was the description besides the white jacket? 1:26 Dispatch: White male, thirty, five feet eight, black hair, slender build, white shirt, black trousers. Going west on Jefferson from the 300 block. 1:26 550/2 (Gerald Hill) I'm at Twelfth and Beckley now. Have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets him. What was he doing at 12th and Beckley, which is way south of the shooting? Who was this mystery man he had in the car with him? As far as I can tell, he never told Dispatch the description he was given at the scene. Steve Thomas Edited July 25, 2020 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stevens Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said: I would add the high probability that this same man - with a similar description of the suspect - was earlier in the TSBD around 12:43 pm and talked to both J. Herbert Sawyer of the DPD and then someone from the Dallas Sheriff's Office a few moments later. 23 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said: Paul, I don't have any opinion on this TSBD mystery man. There were just too many people floating in and out of this crime scene. The person you all are referring to here is Howard Brennan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jolliffe Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mark Stevens said: I'm quite certain this is the description attributed to Brennan. Mark, Yes the Warren Commission wrote that Sawyer's description "probably" originated with Howard Brennan. However, the problems with Brennan's 'identification" of "Oswald" are myriad and have been well-documented for over 55 years. In a nutshell, the criticisms fall into a couple of basic categories: Brennan simply could not have seen that to which he later testified. 1.It was impossible for anyone on the ground outside the TSBD to estimate the height and weight of an only partly visible man on the sixth floor who was crouching on boxes while firing a rifle out a window only one foot from the floor! Yet Brennan testified that the shooter was standing up! His eyesight was never good, but the Warren Commission dared not get into that topic. 2. The top of the window when fully open, was only 26" from the floor. So if Brennan saw a man standing and firing, the shooter was firing through the glass. 3. The DPD failed to take his name at the time of the description, and so had there been a trial of our "Oswald", then the prosecution would have been forced to admit that the police had no idea from whom their information came. 4. Brennan, when he did later talk with the DPD, gave a clothing description, but said nothing about the weapon used. Brennan did not know nor guess what weapon was used. Yet paradoxically, the 12:45 broadcast DID have a weapon description, but OMITTED the clothing description! 5. Brennan was seated on the concrete wall across from the TSBD, BUT HE WAS FACING EAST, NOT NORTH! He claimed to have dived behind the wall at the sound of the last shot he heard ("positively two. I do not recall a second shot . . ." wtf?) which, if true, completely undermines his statement that the shooter stepped back from the window to admire his work. 6. Brennan claimed to have spoken first with a Secret Service man, and in fact, he did talk to Forrest Sorrels. Yet Sorrels did not return to Dealey Plaza until 12:55, more than ten minutes after Sawyer got his description from the mystery man. 7. Sawyer told the DPD dispatcher at 12:43 "It's unknown whether he (the shooter) is still in the building or not known whether HE WAS THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE." But if Brennan were the source of Sawyer's description, then Sawyer would know that the shooter HAD been in the TSBD! 8. There is no evidence at all that Brennan ever was present at an ID lineup later, and no evidence that he identified "Oswald.." WC Exhibit 2003, page 293 does not list Brennan and Will Fritz did not remember him there. No, if (as Gerald Ford would later write in his book "Portrait of an Assassin") Howard Brennan was the best witness the WC had, then they had absolutely nothing. Edited July 25, 2020 by Paul Jolliffe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jolliffe Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 As a quick follow up, i argued in another post a year ago that there was good evidence that the DPD officer whom Brennan accosted and demanded to be taken to a Secret Service agent, was Marion Baker. Roy Truly said so in a fascinating interview in the spring of 1964, and I think he was (inadvertently) destroying the 2nd Floor Lunchroom encounter between Baker and our "Oswald." But that's a different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted July 25, 2020 Author Share Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mark Stevens said: The person you all are referring to here is Howard Brennan. Mark, Brenan failed to identify Oswald in a lineup at police headquarters later that day. It's hard to see how he could describe him, yet fail to identify him. For more info on this lineup, see, Brennan's Lineup Unfortunately, the DPD Archives has been taken down, and all the records were transferred to the Portal to Texas History. https://texashistory.unt.edu/explore/collections/JFKAM/browse/?start=0 Steve Thomas Edited July 25, 2020 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stevens Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said: Mark, Yes the Warren Commission wrote that Sawyer's description "probably" originated with Howard Brennan. However, the problems with Brennan's 'identification" of "Oswald" are myriad and have been well-documented for over 55 years. I'm aware of the issues with Brennan. I guess I didn't realize Steve meant "if we disregard Brennan as a source" no one knows where the description came from. What I have trouble understanding is how why the newspaper reports attributed to Brennan (until after publication of his WC testimony) was that the man he saw was a "slender, nice looking man." This doesn't mesh with the detailed description said to be given to the police. I doubt any reporter would leave out the details of Brennan watching the man fire. If though Brennan was truly afraid as he later claimed, he may not have mentioned this fact to reporters and only to police. 5 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said: As a quick follow up, i argued in another post a year ago that there was good evidence that the DPD officer whom Brennan accosted and demanded to be taken to a Secret Service agent, was Marion Baker. Roy Truly said so in a fascinating interview in the spring of 1964, and I think he was (inadvertently) destroying the 2nd Floor Lunchroom encounter between Baker and our "Oswald." But that's a different thread. I have this article if you would like. I don't buy Truly's statement though as it doesn't match the video evidence of Baker sprinting into the building. If he did yell it out to Baker and Truly, Baker never stopped to acknowledge it. I also don't buy the scenario because this is the description Baker gave of Oswald in his affidavit. If all of this is true, then Baker knew the person who he stopped on the 2nd floor matched the description and let him go just because he worked in the building. Was he under the assumption someone other than an employee was responsible? 5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said: Mark, Brenan failed to identify Oswald in a lineup at police headquarters later that day. It's hard to see how he could describe him, yet fail to identify him. For more info on this lineup, see, Brennan's Lineup Unfortunately, the DPD Archives has been taken down, and all the records were transferred to the Portal to Texas History. https://texashistory.unt.edu/explore/collections/JFKAM/browse/?start=0 Steve Thomas Brennan did later state he feared for his life due to belief in others involvement so he kept quiet about what he knew about Oswald. Whether one believes it or not is up to them, but it would at least explain why he didn't identify him in a lineup. Edited July 26, 2020 by Mark Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Mark Stevens said: I'm aware of the issues with Brennan. I guess I didn't realize Steve meant "if we disregard Brennan as a source" no one knows where the description came from. Mark, J. Edgar Hoover wrote a letter to J. Lee Rankin on January 14, 1964 that the Dallas Police Department had provided this description of the assailant based on the description provided by an unknown citizen, of a man seen running from the Texas School Book Depository immediately after the assassination. This unknown man had never reported to the Sheriff’s office as instructed. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=109 On November 2, 1964 ( two months after the Warren Report was published) Rankin again asked Hoover to find out where that description came from. Hoover responded with a letter on November 12, 1963 that, according to the Dallas police the information came from an ‘unidentified citizen’.” http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=72 - The description had nothing to do with Brennan. Steve Thomas Edited July 26, 2020 by Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stevens Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said: Mark, J. Edgar Hoover wrote a letter to J. Lee Rankin on January 14, 1964 that the Dallas Police Department had provided this description of the assailant based on the description provided by an unknown citizen, of a man seen running from the Texas School Book Depository immediately after the assassination. This unknown man had never reported to the Sheriff’s office as instructed. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=109 On November 2, 1964 ( two months after the Warren Report was published) Rankin again asked Hoover to find out where that description came from. Hoover responded with a letter on November 12, 1963 that, according to the Dallas police the information came from an ‘unidentified citizen’.” http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=72 - The description had nothing to do with Brennan. Steve Thomas Steve, Your first link isn't working. Maybe I wasn't all that clear, but I don't believe Brennan really saw what he claims he saw. I haven't ruled out the possibility the description did come from Brennan though. A good number off witnesses gave information which later made it into reports but the witnesses never actually came in and gave official statements and it could have also been any number of them as well. I also don't believe the initial description was of "Oswald" versus "possible shooter." The description really doesn't match Oswald for it to be a legitimate description of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Mark Stevens said: Steve, Your first link isn't working. Mark, Sorry. The correct link is: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57753&relPageId=109 Rankin had asked Hoover to find the source for the description of the shooter broadcast by the police at 12:45 pm on the 22nd of Nov. Hoover wrote him back and said that according to the police, the source was from an "unidentified citizen". By January of 64, Brennan had certainly been identified. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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