Lee Harvey Oswald's two jackets and why the Tippit killer's jacket was not one of them

[Bill Brown]

1 minute ago, Greg Doudna said:

No, “lighter colored” is not clear or known, not my language or description of Oswald’s gray jacket, which is simply “gray” and “lightweight”. I already said that above, maybe you missed it. 

The Minsk photo of Oswald wearing a lightweight jacket I am saying was his lightweight gray jacket. I cannot tell from that black-and-white photo whether that Minsk jacket is lighter or darker in tone of color than CE 163’s tone of blue. What do you think?

In any case my description of his gray jacket is “gray” and “lightweight” without claim to lighter or darker than CE 163 (unless you can show cause why that is established without circular invocation of 162). 

 

Point being, the jacket/coat Oswald is wearing in the Minsk photo is too much of a heavier weight jacket/coat than one that could be confused for CE-162.

[Greg Doudna]

29 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Point being, the jacket/coat Oswald is wearing in the Minsk photo is too much of a heavier weight jacket/coat than one that could be confused for CE-162.

I agree. Apart from the Marina questionable identification, no one did.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Bill Brown]

37 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

I agree. Apart from the Marina questionable identification, no one did.

So then, of Oswald's two jackets, you have him leaving the Depository in the one which is more lightweight.  Right?

[Greg Doudna]

1 minute ago, Bill Brown said:

So then, of Oswald's two jackets, you have him leaving the Depository in the one which is more lightweight.  Right?

Yes, between those two (his gray and his blue). And your point … ?

 

 

[Ron Ege]

17 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

Thanks Ron Ege. Your analysis of the three options on the CE 162 pretty well summarizes it.

One detail needs to be corrected however: a claim that has long circulated that the "M" medium size is incompatible with Oswald; not so. That claim came about from Marina said she thought Oswald always wore "S", put together with no known clothes of Oswald reported as other than "S". However that is no longer the case. Oswald's maroon shirt CE 151 in the NARA color photo obtained by Pat Speer in 2016 and posted on his website can be seen showing a label in the collar reading "Briarloom Traditionals by Enro. An original design. All fine cotton. M 15-15 1/2." (See the closeup of the label in Pat’s color photo about halfway down—scroll lower than the color photos of the full shirt to below those for the closeup of the collar with label, at https://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence.) No prior photo of CE 151 showed that with sufficient clarity to be read. So Oswald wore size "M" as well as size "S". 

But hundreds of dry cleaning establishments contacted in Dallas and New Orleans by the FBI, and not one could identify the dry cleaning ticket stapled on the inside of that Tippit killer's jacket as the kind of ticket used in their establishment. Either that stapled dry cleaning ticket still remained there years later after Oswald was in the military in California ... or it was someone else's jacket.

Some have noted that Curtis Craford, the mid-October recent hire by Oswald's killer Ruby, the one living at the Carousel Club paid off-the-books (i.e. not formally employed with taxes withheld)--who was mistaken in physical identification for Oswald by other witnesses; of similar build and height and weight (and who left Dallas precipitously with no advance notice within hours after the Tippit killing)—(the one who later said he had been a hitman for a California mobster before he came to Dallas and linked up with Oswald's killer)--was photographed by the FBI, after they tracked him down in Michigan six days later on Nov 28, in color photos wearing a jacket of similar appearance as CE 162 of exactly the same color. 

It is regrettable that the FBI did not find out how recently that jacket of Craford had been purchased and where, and then interviewed the seller of that jacket, as that might or might not have shed light on the true owner of CE 162 (i.e. was that the killer of Tippit buying a second similar jacket of identical color worn as an alibi?).  

Greg, the ticket, exactly. 

And thanks for the Information about Oswald able to wear an "M" size shirt.  And maybe, he even had more than one.  But maybe he bought the Enro shirt when he was heavier.  And maybe the shirt was a gift.  I dunno.

At 5' 9'/145 lbs, my shirt size preference is "M" for fit/comfort.  However, I have received "M" size shirts as gifts, and I have tried on "M" size shirts in stores, and in many of those instances over the years, for whatever reason, the shirts were undersized from the factory and fit me as would a "S" (small). 

I imagine, more telling, among all of Oswald known shirts and jackets is -  what size was typical/usual for him.

Based on your outstanding presentation (and others who've addressed the issue before), I'm just of the mind that the preponderance of everything we know about Oswald's known coats/jackets is - that the "third jacket" did not belong to him.

Craford's?  Unlikely, that we will ever know.  The FBI could've expanded its search for the laundries/dry cleaners, too.  Maybe, just maybe, it could've found which establishments were responsible for the "marks".  Oh, that's right . . . . .

[Bill Brown]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Yes, between those two (his gray and his blue). And your point … ?

 

 

 

I'm getting there.

 

Now, you have Mary Bledsoe seeing Oswald on the bus in the more lightweight jacket of the two owned by Oswald.  Right?

 

[Greg Doudna]

13 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

I'm getting there.

Now, you have Mary Bledsoe seeing Oswald on the bus in the more lightweight jacket of the two owned by Oswald.  Right?

Yep.

[Ron Ege]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I agree. Apart from the Marina questionable identification, no one did.

Greg, thanks.  I think you've pretty much "tied up any loose ends" - and more than once.

1. There is credible evidence that Oswald owned just the two known jackets.

2.  No one has ever produced any photographs or credible evidence of his buying/wearing the "third jacket". 

3.  That jacket, from entirely noncredible provenance, is serendipitously "found" by corrupt/compromised authorities, they quickly and pretty much inexplicably - determining that it belonged to Oswald, he allegedly shedding it on his route from killing Tippit to the TT.

 1 and 2 - am taking to the bank.  3 - don't think so.

 

 

[Bill Brown]

59 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Yep.

 

Okay.  Progress.

 

And you also have Oswald in the Minsk photo in this more lightweight jacket of the two owned by Oswald.  Right?  The one which you claim has a hole in the elbow.  Right?

 

[Greg Doudna]

27 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

Okay.  Progress.

And you also have Oswald in the Minsk photo in this more lightweight jacket of the two owned by Oswald.  Right?  The one which you claim has a hole in the elbow.  Right?

Been saying so all along, yep. Waiting for De Point Bill. 

[Bill Brown]

11 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Been saying so all along, yep. Waiting for De Point Bill. 

 

My point is...

 

You are trying to pass off the jacket/coat that Oswald is wearing in the Minsk photo as one that could possibly be mistaken for (or is similar to) the jacket that Tippit's killer was wearing.  What Oswald is wearing in the Minsk photo is clearly a more heavy-duty type of jacket/coat than one along the lines of CE-162 as well as Oswald's more lightweight jacket.

 

You have to have Oswald (in the Minsk photo) wearing his  more lightweight jacket (of the two he owned) for your entire theory to fit.  This is because you have Oswald on the bus in the more lightweight jacket (of the two he owned) supposedly with a hole in the elbow.

 

The Minsk jacket/coat is NOT a lightweight jacket which could be mistaken for 162.

The Minsk jacket/coat is not a lightweight jacket similar to the one worn by Tippit's killer.

Your point (that Bledsoe saw Oswald on the bus in the lightweight jacket and it had a hole in the elbow) is simply invalid.

Your point that Oswald left the Depository building in the lightweight jacket is invalid.

 

Not to mention, Earlene Roberts has Oswald entering the rooming house with no jacket/coat at all.  William Whaley, on the 23rd, described what Oswald was wearing in his cab and made no mention of any jacket/coat; even going as far as describing the shirt Oswald was wearing.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Bill Brown

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

My point is...

You are trying to pass off the jacket/coat that Oswald is wearing in the Minsk photo as one that could possibly be mistaken for (or is similar to) the jacket that Tippit's killer was wearing.  

No.

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

The Minsk jacket/coat is not a lightweight jacket similar to the one worn by Tippit's killer.

Yes. Now you’re catching on. 

[Greg Doudna]

Bill apart from the questionable identification of Marina, where are you getting this idea that anybody else ever confused the Tippit killer’s light tan CE 162 with the gray jacket of Oswald which Buell Frazier described as gray and flannel or woolen like?

Why this fixation on they must look similar? Says who? Why are you assuming or saying that?

 

[Bill Brown]

18 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Bill apart from the questionable identification of Marina, where are you getting this idea that anybody else ever confused the Tippit killer’s light tan CE 162 with the gray jacket of Oswald which Buell Frazier described as gray and flannel or woolen like?

Why this fixation on they must look similar? Says who? Why are you assuming or saying that?

 

 

I get your point.  However...

 

Marina's identification isn't questionable.  She was directly asked if 162 belonged to Lee and she said that it did.  But, even if she was wrong and 162 wasn't Lee's, it resembled a jacket closely enough that Marina was able to mistake it for one of Lee's.  Therefore, Lee, whether it was 162 or not, owned a lightweight jacket.

 

Putting that aside, do you seriously believe that Lee would own just two jackets/coats and neither of them would be a lightweight jacket?  I mean, you're trying to tell me that Lee owned just two and both were of the more medium-duty to heavy-duty type?  Come on, Greg.  Oswald owned a lightweight jacket.

 

I want to add (again)...

 

William Whaley, on the day after the assassination, described Oswald's shirt in detail and made no mention of any jacket/coat worn by Oswald in the cab ride over to Beckley.

 

Earlene Roberts, who you rely on heavily to support your idea that Oswald left the rooming house in a coat instead of a jacket, has Oswald arriving at the house in only his shirt.  She specifically stated that he wasn't wearing a coat/jacket when he arrived, that he was in his "shirt sleeves" (meaning shirt only, no jacket/coat).

 

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

Putting that aside, do you seriously believe that Lee would own just two jackets/coats and neither of them would be a lightweight jacket?  I mean, you're trying to tell me that Lee owned just two and both were of the more medium-duty to heavy-duty type?  Come on, Greg.  Oswald owned a lightweight jacket.

I think Oswald's gray jacket, the jacket in the Minsk photo, is a lightweight jacket, within reasonable range of usual and customary meaning of native English-speakers' use of "light" (in weight) jacket as opposed to a "heavy" jacket or coat. If you are denying the jacket in that photo is reasonably called a "light jacket" by actual speakers, as distinguished from only yourself, we just disagree. I am open to second or third opinions on this however if someone else wishes to chime in. I cannot post the Minsk photo for technical reasons but it can easily be found on Google Images (just search "Oswald Minsk", will bring it right up).

Edited June 12, 2023 by Greg Doudna