1:22pm DPD radio message translates as The Jacket Was Planted, Folks--and that ain't all

[Donald Willis]

5 minutes ago, Donald Willis said:

I've always been puzzled/intrigued by a seemingly slight contradiction between Callaway & Guinyard.  Callaway has the suspect/vigilante crossing Patton before he gets to Jefferson.  As I recall, Guinyard has him going all the way down Patton on the south side of the street, to Jefferson, almost bumping into him at one point.  Did they see two different suspects??

OR--did they see the SAME man on the EAST (not "south", as I erred, above) side of the street (the Guinyard version), so close, in which case, in fact, that Callaway's "explanation" of the "automatic" on the DPD radio would just not fly.  That is--if such were the case--then, he actually did see an automatic, up close, no ambiguity.  Just a thought... To be clear, I'm not a bear about the weapon's being an automatic. but it is SO tempting to go with Guinyard here...

Sorry, but a THIRD possibility occurs to me... it was actually Guinyard who was the "automatic" witness... But this way lies madness...

[Alan Ford]

3 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

I've always been puzzled/intrigued by a seemingly slight contradiction between Callaway & Guinyard.  Callaway has the suspect/vigilante crossing Patton before he gets to Jefferson.  As I recall, Guinyard has him going all the way down Patton on the south side of the street, to Jefferson, almost bumping into him at one point.  Did they see two different suspects??

I think they saw the same man, but Mr. Callaway embellished in order to explain away the first man (whom he either saw or heard about).

[Michael Kalin]

22 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

OR--did they see the SAME man on the EAST (not "south", as I erred, above) side of the street (the Guinyard version), so close, in which case, in fact, that Callaway's "explanation" of the "automatic" on the DPD radio would just not fly.  That is--if such were the case--then, he actually did see an automatic, up close, no ambiguity.  Just a thought... To be clear, I'm not a bear about the weapon's being an automatic. but it is SO tempting to go with Guinyard here...

Sorry, but a THIRD possibility occurs to me... it was actually Guinyard who was the "automatic" witness... But this way lies madness...

Patterson in his second FBI report (8/26/64) backed Guinyard ("running south down the east side of Patton Avenue between East Tenth Street and East Jefferson Boulevard"). This report also omits accompanying Reynolds along Jefferson toward Ballew's Texaco and visiting the murder scene. The former appears in his 1/23/64 FBI report. The latter does not.

Russell's 1/22/64 FBI report says Patterson did both while Lewis' 1/22/64 FBI report conforms to Patterson's original version of events (nothing about Patterson going to the murder scene).

SAs Kesler & Mitchem who filed these January reports were guilty of some dubious work. Patterson's report has:

Quote

As the individual reached Ballew's Texaco Service Station located in the 600 Block of Jefferson, the individual made a turn in a northerly direction and proceeded behind Ballew's Texaco Service Station where the individual discarded a jacket which was later recovered by the Dallas Police Department. The aforementioned individual was not observed again by either he, PATTERSON, or WARREN REYNOLDS.

The block is wrong and the interpolated "where the individual discarded a jacket which was later recovered by the Dallas Police Department" is so obviously injected surplusage, implying that Patterson actually witnessed the event, that only those blinded by an agenda would not see through the charade.

Russell was interviewed by the FBI a second time on 2/23/63. The report says nothing about Patterson accompanying him to the murder scene. The result is no source exists for the information obtained by the Brocks (and Reynolds) at the Texaco station that the fugitive was the individual who shot Tippit.

Kesler & Mitchem had been very busy for a few days in January 64, and almost constructed a coherent narrative for the flight path leading to the throwdown jacket, but a gaping hole sank the plot. A modern scenarist would deftly overcome this continuity defect with a simple text message, but 1963 events were stuck deep in the analog era, with recourse to few devices save pay phones, telepathy, hallucination & imaginary sequences. Take your pick.

All reports can be found at National Archives' JFK Key Persons.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Michael Kalin
corrected spelling of Kesler

[Alan Ford]

2 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

The block is wrong and the interpolated "where the individual discarded a jacket which was later recovered by the Dallas Police Department" is so obviously injected surplusage, implying that Patterson actually witnessed the event, that only those blinded by an agenda would not see through the charade.

Exactly-----the reader is manipulated into 'reading' "where [he saw] the individual discarded a jacket which was later recovered by the Dallas Police Department"

[Evan Marshall]

Well, I did a tour in CSI and two tours in Homicide both in Detroit PD and I don't see anything revealing in these "clues".

[Michael Kalin]

The planted jacket is the only tangible "clue." The rest is words.

[Michael Kalin]

The WFAA broadcast discussed in Don's first comment is a piece of real evidence that has a bearing on these events.

Like it or not, trying to make sense out of what transpired with respect to the jacket is an exercise in reading comprehension.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Michael Kalin]

In keeping with the spirit of vacillation and adding to the confusion surrounding the activities & observations of the several employees of Johnny Reynolds' Used Car Lot, L.J. Lewis also was interviewed twice by the FBI. In the first (1/21/64) he was on the lot with Patterson & Russell when they heard three or four shots and one minute later observed a gunman running south on Patton to Jefferson, thence west on Jefferson. Patterson departed with Reynolds in pursuit of the gunman, Russell headed north on Patton to the scene, and Lewis went inside to call DPD.

According to his affidavit of 8/26/64 Lewis attempted to call DPD before observing the gunman running south on Patton, delaying the ensuing sequence of events several minutes. At 1:18 ambulance assistant Eddie Kinsley saw an Oswald lookalike who "came out from behind that Texaco station...and he was on the median and he run across in front of us."

This observation by Kinsley casts severe doubt on the version of Jefferson Blvd. events detailed in the various FBI reports (Reynolds, Patterson, Russell, Lewis & the Brocks). Also take into account the WFAA footage of Reynolds telling people about a person he saw who entered the back of an old house, providing a sequential link to the ambulance encounter, and the FBI's words go up in suborned smoke.

[Donald Willis]

On 11/22/2023 at 6:00 AM, Jean Ceulemans said:

I don't see how any of these reenactments can conclude something with some certainty.

1 ) someone could have shot from the window within a rather large number of positions, some inches to the left, right, up, down,.... so the beginning of the traject is variable

2)  when we see there is even discussion on where exactly he was hit, that's also variable (to the extend that I have stopped reading the discussions on that topic)  

3) his exact position when hit seems also open for debate.

So, there are a bunch of variables from the beginning to the end and in between, any conclusions on the angle and bullet trajectory, given those variables will be questionable.

IMO at best one can conclude it was possible to hit the President... like we didn't know that, just like we know some things are impossible.

Now, I don't have a problem with amateurs or scientists trying it, but they will never reach a conclusion that will be shared by a majority. 

It will be used to promote a certain POV, but that's it, it will not solve anything.  

It would be different if a number of things were certain, but they simply are not (judging by the many differents opinions on them)

 

 

 

On 11/28/2023 at 9:33 AM, Michael Kalin said:

In keeping with the spirit of vacillation and adding to the confusion surrounding the activities & observations of the several employees of Johnny Reynolds' Used Car Lot, L.J. Lewis also was interviewed twice by the FBI. In the first (1/21/64) he was on the lot with Patterson & Russell when they heard three or four shots and one minute later observed a gunman running south on Patton to Jefferson, thence west on Jefferson. Patterson departed with Reynolds in pursuit of the gunman, Russell headed north on Patton to the scene, and Lewis went inside to call DPD.

According to his affidavit of 8/26/64 Lewis attempted to call DPD before observing the gunman running south on Patton, delaying the ensuing sequence of events several minutes. At 1:18 ambulance assistant Eddie Kinsley saw an Oswald lookalike who "came out from behind that Texaco station...and he was on the median and he run across in front of us."

This observation by Kinsley casts severe doubt on the version of Jefferson Blvd. events detailed in the various FBI reports (Reynolds, Patterson, Russell, Lewis & the Brocks). Also take into account the WFAA footage of Reynolds telling people about a person he saw who entered the back of an old house, providing a sequential link to the ambulance encounter, and the FBI's words go up in suborned smoke.

Still trying to square Kinsley's suspect with Walker's, at 1:22.  (Walker's was still wearing a jacket, so he wouldn't have come out from behind the Texaco.)   Guess there could have been a 2nd suspect running down Jefferson, but I doubt it.  More likely, the 2nd man was Benavides' church guy, running north rather than south.  

[Michael Kalin]

On 12/20/2023 at 5:18 PM, Donald Willis said:

Still trying to square Kinsley's suspect with Walker's, at 1:22.  (Walker's was still wearing a jacket, so he wouldn't have come out from behind the Texaco.)   Guess there could have been a 2nd suspect running down Jefferson, but I doubt it.  More likely, the 2nd man was Benavides' church guy, running north rather than south. 

The problem is acute. No way to sort this out that I can see. Summing up very quickly:

1. William Lawrence Smith at East 10th & Denver saw a pedestrian who resembled Oswald walking west toward what will soon be the murder scene.
2. Markham first described the murderer as someone who did not look like Oswald, later changed her story.
3. Clemmons described two men at the scene who did not look like Oswald.
4. Benavides & Scoggins observed a gunman leaving the scene toward the ALT who did not look like Oswald.
5. Standard WR witnesses eventually fingered Oswald fleeing via Patton & Jefferson.
6. Kinsley claimed a man crossing Jefferson then heading east looked like Oswald.
7. Walker reported a suspect last seen on Jefferson "about the 300 E. Jefferson."  

Note: Walker's comment shows up in two versions.

CE705 (p.410): Last seen about the 300 E. Jefferson.
CE1974 (p.861): Last seen about the 300 East Jefferson.
Kimbrough/Shearer (#1005): Last seen about 300 block of East Jefferson.

Any observations missing, anomalous or otherwise?

The channel one location dispatches are all over the area (Kimbrough/Shearer #s):

914 -- Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.
932 -- 501 East Tenth.
937 -- 501 East Tenth.
941 -- We have two locations; 501 East Jefferson and 501 East Tenth.
975 -- 91, have a signal 19 involving a police officer at 400 East Tenth. Suspect last seen running west on Jefferson. No description at this time. (pause) Suspect just passed 401 East Jefferson.
986 -- Suspect just passed 401 East Jefferson.
1024 -- Traveling west on Jefferson, 400 block, last seen -- 401 West Jefferson -- correction: 401 East Jefferson.
1026 -- The suspect last seen running west on Jefferson from 400 East Jefferson. 1:24.
1062 -- Going west on Jefferson from the 300 block.
1098 -- 400 East Jefferson. Report in that vicinity.
1118 -- Are you en route 300 East Jefferson?
1164 -- West in the alley between Jefferson and Tenth.
1212 -- Any unit near Marsalis and Jefferson at the library.
1222 -- Jefferson and Marsalis, 29.
1238 -- Marsalis and Jefferson.
1313 -- 300 East Jefferson.
1355 -- Running north on Patton.
1377 -- We have information that a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson.

The telephone call sheets might have helped make sense out of some of this.

[Greg Doudna]

(See update at end.)

Re the man in the street almost run over by the ambulance of Dudley Funeral Home at ca 1:18 pm.

From the Dudley Funeral Home, start of the ambulance, at the SE corner of Jefferson and Crawford, the route of the ambulance assume as told by Butler, the driver, in 1981: right turn out of the funeral home on to Crawford heading north, north through Jefferson remaining on Crawford to Tenth, right (east) on Tenth 1.3 blocks to the fallen Tippit at the crime scene on Tenth. (Interview quotations here are from Myers, With Malice, 2013 edition, pp 155-156 and associated endnotes.)

Kinsley’s conflicting route description of the ambulance told to Myers in 1986 perhaps is mistaken (as opposed to vice versa). Either because of real error of Kinsley, or error in reporting or misunderstanding of Kinsley.

Both Butler (“pulled out from behind the funeral home onto Crawford”) and Kinsley (“We pulled out the side entrance onto Crawford”) agree on the right turn (north) on to Crawford as the start of the ambulance’s direction. 

Kinsley (as reported) says they next turned right (east) on to Jefferson. But driver Butler said they went straight through on Crawford and turned right on Tenth (not right on Jefferson). 

One has to pick one. Butler’s route may have been the quicker of the two. A single right turn, versus three turns one being a left turn, to get to the same destination after leaving the Dudley Funeral Home would be more efficient and likely quicker from an experienced driver’s instinctive preference, in this ambulance situation where seconds mattered.

Then they encounter the man walking hurriedly in front of the ambulance but not running, almost getting run over, Kinsley yells at him, the man is unfazed, “never looked back…just kept going”, per Kinsley. 

We know the killer went west to go past Brewer’s shoe store on Jefferson farther west and then still farther west into the balcony of the Texas Theatre. 

So when Myers reports Kinsley saying that man headed “east” on Jefferson is that a mistake for “west”? I have seen mistakes in transcription of “east”/“west” in archaeological site descriptions. 

The westward direction of the man might be supported by the description that the man passed in front of the ambulance in the street. If he was actually going east then he would not be crossing Crawford from the Ballew’s Texaco area in front of the ambulance heading north on Crawford.

Kinsley says after he shouted at the man, the man did not look back but just kept going. “We had the lights and siren on” (Kinsley) though they were not yet moving fast says Kinsley. As they start to pick up speed going through the Jefferson intersection north on Crawford, they see this man crossing the street in front of them (this would be crossing from the east to the west side) and almost have to hit the brakes to avoid running him over. 

The man ignores Kinsley’s shouting at him and Kinsley sees the back of the man’s head because he says the man never looked back. This could fit a picture of a man crossing Crawford westward in front of them.

Therefore the man almost run over by the ambulance may have been the gunman heading west. If it really was someone heading east on Jefferson—if the Kinsley route was correct and Butler’s the one in error—then it would be someone other than the gunman. 

Either way, this was not a sighting of the gunman heading east—or if anyone thought it was it would have been a mistaken report. The gunman did not head east on Jefferson, but headed west from around Ballew’s Texaco going to the Texas Theatre. 

Update: the suggestion outlined above is probably incorrect. Kinsley's route for the ambulance may be correct after all and Butler's incorrect.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Michael Kalin]

Greg, it's a mistake to base an analysis on anything written by Myers without at least making an effort to locate a rebuttal. In this matter his nonsense was pre-rebutted by Kinsley's earlier interviews, reported by Bill Drenas in "Tippit After the Murder." Kinsley said, "the fool we'd like to hit...was heading for the library."

The library was east of Crawford, so speculation that "east" was a mistake for "west" is erroneous.

Butler's recollection of the route is the dubious item. He also got both the location of the murder site & the call number of his ambulance wrong.

Myers keeps grinding his ax, going so far as to claim that Kinsley actually saw Reynolds crossing in front of the bus instead of Oswald. I think Markham bore more resemblance to Oswald than Reynolds.

You're much too astute to ape Myers' bilious falderal. A strident toady belabors this forum with repetitious lunkheaded expostulations. Best to avoid a similar mental rut.

[Greg Doudna]

Michael K., I see in the earlier Bill Drenas article Kinsley is quoted earlier, "He was heading for the library". That plus Kinsley saying the man was on the median divider on Jefferson, and the Myers' quote of Kinsley saying the ambulance turned "onto Jefferson heading east", OK, I concede you are right the man was heading east, in the direction of the library, and it seems Kinsley's route for the ambulance was correct and Butler's incorrect.

The gunman ended up passing Brewer's store and into the balcony of the Texas Theatre ca. 1:35 pm which is about 15 minutes later. There are some minutes unexplained time gap in that; it doesn't take 15 minutes for the gunman to get there. Hypothetically it could be possible for the gunman to have been seen by Kinsley going east on Jefferson, doubling back in the same direction he originally came from, then somehow out of the ambulance's sight he doubled back again to make his way heading west again to the Texas Theatre. But it is difficult to imagine why and it makes no sense. If Warren Reynolds is excluded as a mismatch to the man because of Kinsley's thinking the man looked like Oswald, maybe it was Patterson (do you know of a photo of Patterson?) or someone else.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Michael Kalin]

I've never seen a photo of Patterson.

Tracking down potential Oswald doubles is fraught with peril. We know they existed but it's much too easy to fall into the trap of declaring their presence at will.

Check out the "LHO was in Mexico City" thread for an example of impenetrable complexity involving doubles, who do not preclude the presence of Oswald despite the repudiation of all evidence indicative of this presence. Aside -- Oswald boarding the Marsalis bus does not receive the same consideration.

Another example -- no connection has been established between any fugitive from the Tippit murder scene and the Texas Theater. The closest he comes on the radio tapes is the 300 block of East Jefferson, but we do not know the source of this information. The man Brewer claimed he observed in the shoe store window could easily have left the TT and returned after witnessing the police activity in the area. Meanwhile there was a double in the TT sitting in the balcony soon to be bundled out the back door....

Long ago I gave up on kiting doubles around Oak Cliff to satisfy various hypotheses while accounting for the majority of reported observations.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Alan Ford]

8 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

The man Brewer claimed he observed in the shoe store window could easily have left the TT and returned after witnessing the police activity in the area.

Yes, and he could have been Mr. Oswald himself