Oak Cliff Time Trials

[Michael Kalin]

11 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Markham's reference to the "1:15 bus" is for the bus that was scheduled to arrive at 1:12. IMO, it makes no sense to call a bus arriving at any other time, the "1:15 bus". It does make sense, however, to refer to a bus arriving at 1:12 and leaving the bus stop at 1:15 to be called the 1:15 bus. Again, that's my opinion based on the evidence.

Markham knew damned well that the shooting occurred before 1:15 and testified to that fact.

MR BALL. You think it was a little after 1 ?

MRS MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet that it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.

MR BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you ?

MRS MARKHAM. 1:15.

MR BALL. So it was BEFORE 1:15 ?

MRS MARKHAM. Yes it was. ( 3 H 306 )

Markham wasn't the only witness who put the time of the shooting before 1:15. Multiple witnesses put the time of the shooting bewteen 1:06 and 1:10. The permit for autopsy shows that Tippit arrived at Methodist Hospital DOA at 1:15. ( Dallas Police Box 3, pg. 307 ) The Davenport/Bardin report says that Tippit was pronounced dead at 1:15. ( Dallas Police Box 1, pg. 80 )

IMO, the evidence says that the shooting occurred before 1:15. This means that 5 minutes has been added to the official record in order to make it possible for Oswald to have been the shooter. Without that extra 5 minutes, it was physically impossible for Oswald to be at the scene of the murder while travelling on foot.

And to quote Rhett Butler in Gone With the Wind, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" what Dale Myers says. Or for that matter, what some witness' relative says who wasn't even there. It may be interesting, but it's still hearsay and there's no way to corroborate it.

I'm interested in the evidence.

The Dallas Police produced call sheets for every phone call received. They were cards that were stamped by a timeclock. ( 13 H 91-92 )

Why did the Commission fail to produce the Dallas Police call sheets for the phone calls made by Mary Wright and someone at Ted Callaway's car lot ? In all the confusion, both their addresses were broadcast as locations for the shooting, ( 501 E Tenth and 501 East Jefferson ) proof that those calls were received.

Because the call sheets would have been stamped with the time the calls were received. They would have narrowed down the time of the shooting. Are they the "information from Dallas" referred to by the FBI that showed the shooting occurred prior to 1:13 ? Where are those call sheets ? I've never seen them.

Keep in mind that if the case against Oswald was legitimate and the evidence was authentic:

1. There would be no conflicts in the evidence.

2. There would be no problems with the chain of custody.

3. People not connected with the case, like Dean Rusk, would never be called to testify.

4. Authorities would never have altered witness statements and affidavits, threatened and harrassed witnesses and ignored tests results that disproved the Commission's conclusions.

5. Evidence would not be missing.

6. Witnesses would not have been ignored.

7. Ted Callaway would have never asked Benavides which way the shooter went.

8. The bullets removed from Tippit's body would have matched the shells found at the scene.

9. There would have been proof Oswald received the rifle.

10. The rifle found on the sixth floor would have been 36 inches.

11. The paper gunsack would have been in the crime scene photos.

12. Jack Ruby's mother's dental records would never have been an exhibit.

This was not a criminal investigation. This was a joke. This was a gathering of evidence against one suspect and I feel sorry for those who can't or won't see it for what it was.

Excellent wrap up, Gil. Not much to add. However, my take on the 1:15 bus time is different. It's SA Barrett's invention, interpolated into his 3/17/64 report as an indirect quote, same date as his bus report that stated the scheduled time was 1:12PM.  Why didn't he bring this discrepancy to Markham's attention? Simple, he fabricated the 1:15PM time. The bus report also contains the ridiculous information that it took 2 1/2 minutes to walk the 400 foot distance from the Washateria to 10th Street. Barrett was in retardation mode. Ball (who also failed to mention the 1:12PM time of the bus schedule) and the WC suborners followed through during her testimony.

The notion that the radio tapes show that Bowley's call occurred at 1:18 has already been comprehensively refuted. No need to go through it again. 

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Michael Kalin said:

The notion that the radio tapes show that Bowley's call occurred at 1:18 has already been comprehensively refuted. No need to go through it again. 

If you are saying the existing best recordings of the police calls do not have the citizens' calling in on Tippit's radio telling of the fallen officer after 1:16 (i.e. no argument of altered or tampered police tapes), that is just plainly untrue. Here is what I understand is considered the best transcription of the existing police tapes, the Ferrell, Kimbrough, Bonner, Shearer edition: http://www.billdrenas.com/articles/dpd01-00.pdf.

Just check on that transcript, item #816, time check 1:16. Then items #899-919 (after 1:16 pm), the citizens calling in from Tippit's car the first report that Tippit has been shot, and police reacting to that information. 

Therefore, after 1:16 pm. 

Then item #930 has a time check 1:19.

Therefore the Bowley et al radio calls occurred between 1:16 and 1:19.

I think you are substituting bluster for substance in asserting a post-1:16 call time on the existing police recordings, for when those first citizens radioed in Tippit was shot, has "already been comprehensively refuted". 

[Michael Kalin]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Just check on that transcript, item #816, time check 1:16. Then items #899-919 (after 1:16 pm), the citizens calling in from Tippit's car the first report that Tippit has been shot, and police reacting to that information. 

Therefore, after 1:16 pm. 

Then item #930 has a time check 1:19.

Therefore the Bowley et al radio calls occurred between 1:16 and 1:19.

The timestamps are nominal for reasons already described. I'm not going to repeat them.

If you want to make a serious argument based on timestamps you must first establish their validity.

[Greg Doudna]

48 minutes ago, Michael Kalin said:

The timestamps are nominal for reasons already described. I'm not going to repeat them.

If you want to make a serious argument based on timestamps you must first establish their validity.

They were spoken and recorded by the dispatchers in real time Michael, and are on the police tapes. No idea what you mean by calling dispatchers noting times for the record in real time only “nominal”, whatever that is supposed to mean. 

Nobody who listens to those tapes says those dispatchers’ 1:16 and 1:19 recorded times are not there, or that the citizens’ radio calls from the Tippit crime scene are not in between the 1:16 and the 1:19.

[Michael Kalin]

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

They were spoken and recorded by the dispatchers in real time Michael, and are on the police tapes. No idea what you mean by calling dispatchers noting times for the record in real time only “nominal”, whatever that is supposed to mean. 

Nominal, per Google: "Existing in name only; not real."

Nothing on the radio tapes said in "real time" validates the timestamps for reasons given in CE1974.

The timestamps remain merely nominal until it can be demonstrated that they accurately reflect the times when they were made.

My attempt to produce a margin of error is plus or minus three minutes, but this is shaky. I don't know how to assess either the degree of asynchronism or the dispatchers' height factor. How do you handle these issues? (NB ignoring them is a feeble response.)

Asynchronism, per the Free Dictionary:  "Lack of temporal concurrence; absence of synchronism."

[Bill Brown]

On 7/1/2024 at 4:46 PM, Gil Jesus said:

I'm not a worshipper of Dale Myers. All I know is what the evidence says.

Consider this: Helen Markham was on her way to catch her "1:15 bus" that was scheduled to arrive at the corner of East Jefferson and Patton Ave. at 1:12 pm.

If this murder occurred  at 1:17 or 1:18 pm as Mr. Brown suggests, then Helen Markham never saw it. Because she had already caught her bus and was on her way to work.

So either the murder happened before 1:15 and Markham witnessed it, or it happened after 1:15 and Markham never saw it. Since the preponderance of the evidence indicates that Markham was present and witnessed the murder, therefore it had to have occurred BEFORE 1:15.

There is more evidence for a pre-1:15 time of the murder.

In a memo dated 11/28/63, FBI Inspector James R. Malley notified the SAC of the Dallas Office, that the FBI had, "communications from Dallas showing time of death for TIPPETT ( sic ) as 1:13 pm." 

He also warned them to, "make sure our times jibe."

Does "make sure our times jibe" mean altering evidence if necessary ?

The point I'm making is that you can't have Helen Markham on the corner of 10th and Patton and the murder occurring at 1:17 or 1:18. It makes no sense because she's already missed her bus before Tippit was even shot.

All of this evidence has been shown to Mr. Brown in his previous post on the time of the murder, but he seems determined to ignore it.

 

"Consider this: Helen Markham was on her way to catch her "1:15 bus" that was scheduled to arrive at the corner of East Jefferson and Patton Ave. at 1:12 pm."

 

Nonsense.

There was a 1:12 bus and there was also a 1:22 bus.  You have no idea which bus she was going to be boarding.

 

"If this murder occurred  at 1:17 or 1:18 pm as Mr. Brown suggests, then Helen Markham never saw it. Because she had already caught her bus and was on her way to work."

 

I have never claimed that the Tippit murder occurred as late as 1:17 or 1:18.

 

Edited July 3 by Bill Brown

[Bill Brown]

On 7/1/2024 at 5:12 PM, Michael Kalin said:

Not so foolish as to accept the validity of another unsupported assertion, subject to Hitchens Razor same as before.

Put down your blunderbuss and produce some on-target evidence to back up your statements.

Or pray for an epiphany that you are not Father Time. The whole world will rejoice at your self-revelation.

 

Ted Callaway testified that after hearing the five gun shots, he ran out to the sidewalk on Patton.  This was a little over a half block south of the shooting scene.  Callaway saw a man (who he later identified as Oswald) cutting across Patton as he (Oswald) made his way south on Patton (towards Callaway's position).  Callaway hollered out to the man  as the man continued south on Patton past Callaway's position.  Callaway testified that the man was running and holding a gun.  Callaway saw the man head west on Jefferson (the same direction as the theater).

Once the man turned west onto Jefferson, Callaway ran a "good hard run" up to the corner of Tenth and Patton.  Callaway, noticing the stopped patrol car, went to the car and saw the officer (Tippit) lying dead in the street.  Callaway said the first thing he did was to grab the police car radio and report the shooting.  He said he didn't know if anyone had reported it yet, so he decided to report it himself.

To recap, Callaway hears the shots.  Runs to the sidewalk.  Sees the gunman run south on Patton the entire block from Tenth to Jefferson.  Runs the two-thirds of a block up to the shooting scene.  Goes over to the police car and the first thing he does is grab the radio and report the shooting to the police dispatcher.

How much time do you believe passed from the time Callaway heard the shots to the time he reported the shooting on the police radio?

Let's say two minutes pass from the time Oswald shoots Tippit to the time Oswald turns the corner from Patton onto Jefferson.  This is a little over one block and Oswald was running.

Let's say it takes Callaway one minute when he made the "good hard run" the two-thirds of a block from his location to the patrol car.

If these two time estimates are anywhere close to being correct, then Callaway is at the patrol car roughly three minutes after the shots rang out.  Let's add another full minute for error.  So we have Callaway at the patrol car using the police radio about four minutes after the shots rang out.

Here's the thing... Callaway's report to the dispatcher while using the patrol car radio took place at 1:19/1:20.

Do the math and work it backwards.  At 1:19/1:20, Callaway makes the call.  If four minutes have passed (and that's being generous, in my opinion) since the shots rang out, then the shots rang out around 1:15.

 

[Bill Brown]

On 7/1/2024 at 7:14 PM, Greg Doudna said:

Gil I understand your point but there is another way to look at this. The fact is there was no “1:15” bus yet that is what Helen Markham said. “1:15” could be the time Helen had in mind she should be there, in time for the 1:22 actual bus time. 

Since the time she gave is not any actual bus time, either she was mistaken (which could agree with either 1:12 or 1:22 actual bus times) or she had in mind a time she needed to be there (which would be for the 1:22, not the 1:12).

I realize interpreting her “1:15” as referring to 1:12 is a better fit with the time she says she left her apartment. That would seem to be the real argument for her “1:15” meaning the 1:12 bus. 

Against that however are the other arguments in favor of the ca 1:15 time of the shooting, and the more recent information reported by McMahon from the Markham family that she was at 10th and Patton earlier than normal that day due to being asked by her son (the gang leader) to be present to witness something happening of a meeting of Tippit with gang members. 

Because much of the hearsay collected by McMahon from these family members is difficult to believe at face value, it is easy to blow this one off as family urban legend in genre. However there is this: (1) Jimmy Burt, one of the gang associates, told the FBI of a peculiar way he parked his car next to Tippit’s, which independently agrees with credible witness Frank Wright reporting seeing that same car parked the same odd way at the Tippit crime scene there at the time of the killing; and I don’t think (going from memory) McMahon relates or mentions that; and (2) independent argument that Tippit had been lured into an ambush, rather than it being the random accidental stop of a pedestrian that turned out badly of the WC/Myers interpretation.

I believe these two things correlate and explain each other. The ambush was set up for Tippit based on a fixed meeting time for which Tippit appeared. The car of Burt parked the wrong way on the wrong side of the street becomes the helpful signal to Tippit of where to pull over. Tippit pulls over, a man (his killer) appears from the sidewalk gesturing to him, says something through the vent window enough to get Tippit out of his car, then professionally and cold-bloodedly kills Tippit.

Jimmy Burt and William Smith in Burt’s car I believe saw this from only feet away outside Burt’s car, not being party to or having advance knowledge of the murder. They drove off, then both came to deny they and Burt’s car was ever there (except for when Burt told the FBI it was). Not only did Frank Wright see Burt’s car there but a lady in a house across the street also said she witnessed Tippit’s car pull up behind a parked sounding like another witness of Burt’s car there at the time of the killing.

According to McMahon’s article and research (going from memory), according to the Markham family the Markham son’s gang knew Ruby. And separately McMahon found Scoggins’ grandson with his grandfather’s story that a Ruby person asked Scoggins to be where he was at the time he was that day. 

In this reconstruction neither Helen Markham nor Jimmy Burt or Scoggins would know in advance there was to be a murder, but also would be terrified in the aftermath. If they recognized the killer (not necessarily but unknown) there would be motive not to say so, out of fear for their lives. (Recall Ruby stopping by Helen’s workplace at a counter later that day asking for her. Helen wasn’t there at the time but would have been told.) 

Then the fractured echoes of that come through the generations and decades later in the Markham family stories of what Helen privately told of that day. 

If so, this could explain two other minor details: either time, 1:12 or 1:22, seems “early” compared to when her shift began; and her “1:15” not matching any actual bus time possibly could be because that day she was walking earlier than she was used to. 

I also think I have an idea why Tippit was killed in a contract killing that day.  It was because Tippit was a contact or conduit for Oswald to convey something regularly—written, recording, something—to someone with whom Mather at Collins Radio was a courier or contact. Mather enlisted his friend Tippit to be the one actually meeting Oswald or receiving whatever from Oswald, via both being at the Dobbs House in mornings, that being where Tippit was regularly even though out of his district and no obvious reason why he would be a regular there—except it was next to Oswald’s rooming house and Oswald went there for coffee too.

Tippit was killed because of his knowledge of contacts with Oswald. At one of the meetings in which courier Mather had driven in to meet Tippit, the bad people spotted that and borrowed Mather’s license plate off his car without his knowledge, substituting another for it, and used those plates of Mather on Vaganov’s car. Which sounds outlandish except it happened with the changed license plate witnessed. I do not think Vaganov was at the scene of the crime but was set to be a driver for the car-less killer of Tippit, Craford, though that did not happen. 

And I think Tippit, far from being involved in either the assassination or any intention to kill Oswald, following the assassination of JFK, which came as a surprise, tried his level best, frantically but unsuccessfully, to find Oswald and head him off before Oswald went to the Texas Theatre where Tippit may have known Oswald’s life would be in extreme danger. 

 

"Gil I understand your point but there is another way to look at this. The fact is there was no “1:15” bus yet that is what Helen Markham said. “1:15” could be the time Helen had in mind she should be there, in time for the 1:22 actual bus time. 

Since the time she gave is not any actual bus time, either she was mistaken (which could agree with either 1:12 or 1:22 actual bus times) or she had in mind a time she needed to be there (which would be for the 1:22, not the 1:12)."

 

Bingo!

We have a winner.

 

[Bill Brown]

22 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Markham's reference to the "1:15 bus" is for the bus that was scheduled to arrive at 1:12. IMO, it makes no sense to call a bus arriving at any other time, the "1:15 bus". It does make sense, however, to refer to a bus arriving at 1:12 and leaving the bus stop at 1:15 to be called the 1:15 bus. Again, that's my opinion based on the evidence.

Markham knew damned well that the shooting occurred before 1:15 and testified to that fact.

MR BALL. You think it was a little after 1 ?

MRS MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet that it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.

MR BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you ?

MRS MARKHAM. 1:15.

MR BALL. So it was BEFORE 1:15 ?

MRS MARKHAM. Yes it was. ( 3 H 306 )

Markham wasn't the only witness who put the time of the shooting before 1:15. Multiple witnesses put the time of the shooting bewteen 1:06 and 1:10. The permit for autopsy shows that Tippit arrived at Methodist Hospital DOA at 1:15. ( Dallas Police Box 3, pg. 307 ) The Davenport/Bardin report says that Tippit was pronounced dead at 1:15. ( Dallas Police Box 1, pg. 80 )

IMO, the evidence says that the shooting occurred before 1:15. This means that 5 minutes has been added to the official record in order to make it possible for Oswald to have been the shooter. Without that extra 5 minutes, it was physically impossible for Oswald to be at the scene of the murder while travelling on foot.

And to quote Rhett Butler in Gone With the Wind, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" what Dale Myers says. Or for that matter, what some witness' relative says who wasn't even there. It may be interesting, but it's still hearsay and there's no way to corroborate it.

I'm interested in the evidence.

The Dallas Police produced call sheets for every phone call received. They were cards that were stamped by a timeclock. ( 13 H 91-92 )

Why did the Commission fail to produce the Dallas Police call sheets for the phone calls made by Mary Wright and someone at Ted Callaway's car lot ? In all the confusion, both their addresses were broadcast as locations for the shooting, ( 501 E Tenth and 501 East Jefferson ) proof that those calls were received.

Because the call sheets would have been stamped with the time the calls were received. They would have narrowed down the time of the shooting. Are they the "information from Dallas" referred to by the FBI that showed the shooting occurred prior to 1:13 ? Where are those call sheets ? I've never seen them.

Keep in mind that if the case against Oswald was legitimate and the evidence was authentic:

1. There would be no conflicts in the evidence.

2. There would be no problems with the chain of custody.

3. People not connected with the case, like Dean Rusk, would never be called to testify.

4. Authorities would never have altered witness statements and affidavits, threatened and harrassed witnesses and ignored tests results that disproved the Commission's conclusions.

5. Evidence would not be missing.

6. Witnesses would not have been ignored.

7. Ted Callaway would have never asked Benavides which way the shooter went.

8. The bullets removed from Tippit's body would have matched the shells found at the scene.

9. There would have been proof Oswald received the rifle.

10. The rifle found on the sixth floor would have been 36 inches.

11. The paper gunsack would have been in the crime scene photos.

12. Jack Ruby's mother's dental records would never have been an exhibit.

This was not a criminal investigation. This was a joke. This was a gathering of evidence against one suspect and I feel sorry for those who can't or won't see it for what it was.

 

"I'm interested in the evidence.

The Dallas Police produced call sheets for every phone call received. They were cards that were stamped by a timeclock. ( 13 H 91-92 )

Why did the Commission fail to produce the Dallas Police call sheets for the phone calls made by Mary Wright and someone at Ted Callaway's car lot ? In all the confusion, both their addresses were broadcast as locations for the shooting, ( 501 E Tenth and 501 East Jefferson ) proof that those calls were received."

 

If you're really interested in the evidence, then why not learn it?

The "someone" you're referring to who called the police was L.J. Lewis and he certainly was NOT at Callaway's car lot.  Lewis was across the street from Callaway's lot at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company (as was Warren Reynolds, Pat Patterson and Harold Russell).

By the way, since I have your attention, if you're interested in the evidence as you claim, then please support your (mistaken) statement that William Scoggins didn't see the killer's face because he (Scoggins) was lying in the street.

Or... you could simply admit that you said something stupid.

 

[Michael Kalin]

2 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

If these two time estimates are anywhere close to being correct, then Callaway is at the patrol car roughly three minutes after the shots rang out.  Let's add another full minute for error.  So we have Callaway at the patrol car using the police radio about four minutes after the shots rang out.

Here's the thing... Callaway's report to the dispatcher while using the patrol car radio took place at 1:19/1:20.

Do the math and work it backwards.  At 1:19/1:20, Callaway makes the call.  If four minutes have passed (and that's being generous, in my opinion) since the shots rang out, then the shots rang out around 1:15.

 

Let's not add "another full minute for error," but stick to the three minutes assertion. The implied precision of your time scheme has no room for fudge:

1. Shots: 1:15
2. Bowley's radio call: 1:17:41
3. Callaway's radio call: 1:18

Your data, result is the absurdity that Callaway queued up at the squad car to wait for Bowley to stop talking and hang up the mike. Alternative scenario: maybe Bowley handed the mike to Callaway while resetting his Timex according to where he parked his car.

Edited July 3 by Michael Kalin

[Bill Brown]

10 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

Let's not add "another full minute for error," but stick to the three minutes assertion. The implied precision of your time scheme has no room for fudge:

1. Shots: 1:15
2. Bowley's radio call: 1:17:41
3. Callaway's radio call: 1:18

Your data, result is the absurdity that Callaway queued up at the squad car to wait for Bowley to stop talking and hang up the mike. Alternative scenario: maybe Bowley handed the mike to Callaway while resetting his Timex according to where he parked his car.

 

You're trying to have the best of both worlds.

Either Bowley's call was at 1:16 and Callaway two and a half minutes later at 1:19...

Or...

Bowley's call was at 1:17 and Callaway's was two and a half minutes later at 1:19/1:20.

Neither scenario has Bowley handing the mic to Callaway.

Let me explain it to you this way (so you don't go on insisting that you're correct while being grossly incorrect like you have done before)... If Bowley's call was at 1:17:41, then Callaway's was not at 1:18.

Your mistake is in believing that the two reports (Bowley's and then Callaway's) were one minute apart.  They weren't.

 

 

[Michael Kalin]

15 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Your mistake is in believing that the two reports (Bowley's and then Callaway's) were one minute apart.  They weren't.

Desperation's death rattle -- a frantic attempt to salvage a bankrupt argument by knocking down a straw man.

You supplied the data that occasions an absurd daisy chain in which Benavides hands off the mike to Bowley who hands off the mike to Callaway.

Your only hope for a chapter 11 reorganization is to jettison the nonsense that Markham witnessed a murder at 1:15.

In lieu thereof immediate liquidation under chapter 7 is exigent.

Submit order.

Edited July 4 by Michael Kalin

[Bill Brown]

8 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

Desperation's death rattle -- a frantic attempt to salvage a bankrupt argument by knocking down a straw man.

You supplied the data that occasions an absurd daisy chain in which Benavides hands off the mike to Bowley who hands off the mike to Callaway.

Your only hope for a chapter 11 reorganization is to jettison the nonsense that Markham witnessed a murder at 1:15.

In lieu thereof immediate liquidation under chapter 7 is exigent.

Submit order.

 

You're not making any sense.  No one has said that Bowley handed off the mic to Callaway.  This is a figment of your overactive imagination and it is not required (at all) in the scenario I've laid out in the OP.

It appears that you don't wish to discuss the case in an honest manner.

The police tapes tell you that Markham was NOT approaching the corner at 1:06.

 

[Michael Kalin]

14 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

It appears that you don't wish to discuss the case in an honest manner.

The police tapes tell you that Markham was NOT approaching the corner at 1:06.

False for reasons specified repeatedly. It appears that it's time to man up to a reading comprehension deficiency. Courses might be available in English as a first language.

[Bill Brown]

13 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

False for reasons specified repeatedly. It appears that it's time to man up to a reading comprehension deficiency. Courses might be available in English as a first language.

 

So then you do believe that Tippit's body was lying in the street for as much as nine minutes before anyone called the police.