Shooting From Behind The Fence With A Revolver?

[Donald Willis]

On 7/25/2024 at 9:16 AM, Greg Doudna said:

I disagree on no innocent explanation for Hill. The innocent explanation is he blundered on the "automatic" initial report claim (easy mistake to make based on ejected hulls found near where the gun was fired, except for the detail the hulls were not exactly at where the gun was fired; also, Callaway viewing the killer from across the street on Patton holding the gun in a certain way assumed the killer was reloading an automatic but clearly wrongly); then Hill distanced himself from the blunder by denying he made the radio transmission.

Contrary to some others, I don't see any cause to suppose Hill was a liar in a wilful or premeditated sense that day. 

 

Perhaps another example of Hill's "dissembling" will make it clearer that he was not so innocent.

At 1:23pm, on 11/22/63, Sgt. Owens & Sgt. Hill arrive at 10th St. & Patton  [CE 1974 p59:  Owens radios dispatcher, "Out at destination"/also see With Malice p385]

At 1:27, Hill radios, "I'm at 12th & Beckley now.  Have a man in the car with me that can ID the suspect."  [CE [1974 p63]

At 1:28, Owens radios from "here at the service station..." [CE 1974 p64]

So, it's documented that, within 3 or 4 minutes, both Owens and Hill left the scene of the shooting, going their separate ways.

Curiously, Hill testifies otherwise:  "I took the keys to Poe's car,,,, I went around and met Owens .  I whipped around the block.  I went down to the first intersection east of the block, where all this incident occurred, and made a right turn, and traveled one block, and came back up on Jefferson.  And met Owens in front of two large  vacant houses..." [v7p48]

12th & Beckley is some 6 blocks from 10th & Patton.  Hill didn't go to Beckley to meet Owens.  Beckley is 3 blocks from Crawford, where the vacant houses were, where Owens was. 

Hill must have felt pretty safe testifying falsely here.  The hapless Commission was using the Sawyer Exhibit A transcription (page 396) of the police radio logs, which identified "Westbrook-Batchelor", not Hill, as the source for Hill's 1:27 transmission.  

"Whipped around the block" he did.  Not.  How crucial was Hill's fabricated story?  We can't know unless we know the identity of his 1:27 witness, whom Hill's testimony essentially atomized.  Dale Myers took a guess: Harold Russell: but Russell had no information (that we know of) which would have required such blatantly false testimony from Hill.

[Greg Doudna]

 

Donald Willis, I’m afraid I don’t quite follow your argument that Gerald Hill must have been willfully perjuring in saying he went to where Owens was at the Texaco, which would be before he went to 12th and Jefferson. He goes to where Owens is at the Texaco at ca 1:26, then 1:27 Hill radios from 12th and Jefferson, then 1:28 Owens radios from the Texaco. What is the problem exactly that you see requiring Hill to be willfully majorly fabricating saying he went to the Texaco where Owens was (where he would have picked up Russell to look for the fleeing suspect, and then radioed from 12th and Beckley)?

Just because Owens radios at 1:28 from the Texaco does not prove he arrived at the Texaco at 1:28. And also I think you will agree these minute times on the radio calls could be a minute or possibly even two minutes wiggle room off. So why go from those ambiguities to the draconian conclusion that Hill was certainly willfully lying and covering up something sinister on his WC testimony? I don’t see proof of such in what you cite. 

Edited July 30 by Greg Doudna

[Kevin Balch]

If there was a pre-planned scheme to pin the Tippit shooting on Oswald, why didn’t they know he had a revolver. Some have argued that the cops planted the revolver during the struggle in the theater. While cops have been known to plant physical evidence, all the cases I know of have them doing so at the scene of the crime or on/near a dead person.

[Donald Willis]

On 7/26/2024 at 7:17 PM, Greg Doudna said:

Donald Willis, I’m afraid I don’t quite follow your argument that Gerald Hill must have been willfully perjuring in saying he went to where Owens was at the Texaco, which would be before he went to 12th and Jefferson. He goes to where Owens is at the Texaco at ca 1:26, then 1:27 Hill radios from 12th and Jefferson, then 1:28 Owens radios from the Texaco. What is the problem exactly that you see requiring Hill to be willfully majorly fabricating saying he went to the Texaco where Owens was (where he would have picked up Russell to look for the fleeing suspect, and then radioed from 12th and Beckley)?

Just because Owens radios at 1:28 from the Texaco does not prove he arrived at the Texaco at 1:28. And also I think you will agree these minute times on the radio calls could be a minute or possibly even two minutes wiggle room off. So why go from those ambiguities to the draconian conclusion that Hill was certainly willfully lying and covering up something sinister on his WC testimony? I don’t see proof of such in what you cite. 

Greg -- Your scenario tallies with neither Hill nor Russell.  Hill testified that he  met Owens at the Texaco/old-house area, then "went back around to the original (Tippit) scene". (p48)   Nothing about going from the Texaco scene to 12th & Beckley.  Nothing about ferrying a witness from either the Texaco or Tippit scene at all.  

In neither his 1/21/64 FBI interview nor his 2/23/64 FBI interview did Russell say that he went to the Texaco/old-house area.  And if , as you posit, Hill picked up Russell there, why would he take a separate car (Poe's)  from 10th & Patton, and not continue travelling in Owens' car?

As I said, Hill's testimony effectively atomized his witness.

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

Greg -- Your scenario tallies with neither Hill nor Russell.  Hill testified that he  met Owens at the Texaco/old-house area, then "went back around to the original (Tippit) scene". (p48)   Nothing about going from the Texaco scene to 12th & Beckley.  Nothing about ferrying a witness from either the Texaco or Tippit scene at all.  

In neither his 1/21/64 FBI interview nor his 2/23/64 FBI interview did Russell say that he went to the Texaco/old-house area.  And if , as you posit, Hill picked up Russell there, why would he take a separate car (Poe's)  from 10th & Patton, and not continue travelling in Owens' car?

As I said, Hill's testimony effectively atomized his witness.

I see your point Donald. Rather than Hill picking up Russell at the Texaco--scratch that--perhaps Hill drove in Poe's car 105 with a witness with him (who could that be?) from 10th and Patton, got as far as Beckley and 12th looking for the fleeing gunman (hoping the witness in the car with him could identify him if they saw him), radioed from Beckley and 12th.

Then there is a radio dispatch alerting to activity at the Texaco area buildings' location and Hill drives there and assists. Then from there Hill returns to Tenth and Patton and returns car 105 to its regular officer Poe.

After Hill says Poe gives him the keys, the questioner (Belin) skips to a question about radio transmissions and Hill in answering "skips" to the point of those radio transmissions. He omitted overtly saying he drove with the witness to Beckley and 12th, even though we know he did that. But he was out somewhere away from 10th and Patton when he got the radio dispatch concerning activity at the Texaco where he went next.

Would that work for you?

If that works, the only anomaly is Hill apparently never volunteered the name of his crime scene witness he carried in his car (and dropped off at the Texaco location?). It would create two minor mysteries: who was it, and why did Hill not make it clearer voluntarily who it was. But neither of those minor mysteries require Hill to have been overtly lying in these testimonies, does it?

 

Mr. BELIN. Now, let me interrupt you here, sergeant. Do you remember the name of the person that gave you the description? 
Mr. HILL. No. I turned him over to Poe, and I didn't even get his name. 
Mr. BELIN. Had anyone at anytime given you any cartridge cases of any kind? 
Mr. HILL. No; they had not. This came much later. 
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead if you would, please. 
Mr. HILL. All right, I took the key to Poe's car. Another person came up, and we also referred him to Poe, that told us the man had run over into the funeral home parking lot. That would be Dudley Hughes' parking lot in the 400 block of East Jefferson--and taken off his jacket. 
Mr. BELIN. You turned this man over to Poe, too? 
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BELIN. I notice in the radio log transcript, which is marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, that at 1:26 p.m., between 1:26 p.m., and 1:32 p.m., there was a call from No. 19 to 531. 531 is your home number, I believe? Your radio home station? 
Mr. HILL. Yes. 
Mr. BELIN. That says, "One of the men here at the service station that saw him seems to think he is in this block, 400 block East Jefferson, behind his service station. Give me some more squads over here." "Several squads check out." Was that you? 
Mr. HILL. That was Owens. 
Mr. BELIN. Were you calling in at all? 
Mr. HILL. No. That is Bud Owens. 
Mr. BELIN. You had left Owens' car at this time? 
Mr. HILL. I left Owens' car and had 105 car at this time. 
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? 
Mr. HILL. At this time, about the time this broadcast came out, I went around and met Owens. I whipped around the block. I went down to the first intersection east of the block where all this incident occurred, and made a right turn, and traveled one block, and came back up on Jefferson. 
Mr. BELIN. All right. 
Mr. HILL. And met Owens in front of two large vacant houses on the north side of Jefferson that are used for the storage of secondhand furniture. 
By then Owens had information also that some citizen had seen the man running towards these houses. 
At this time Sergeant Owens was there; I was there; Bill Alexander was there; it was probably about this time that C. T. Walker, an accident investigator got there; and with Sergeant Owens and Walker and a couple more officers standing outside, Bill Alexander and I entered the front door of the house that would have been to the west--it was the farthest to the west of the two--shook out the lower floor, made sure nobody was there, and made sure that all the entrances from either inside or outside of the building to the second floor were securely locked. 
Then we went back over to the house next door, which would have been the first one east of this one, and made sure it was securely locked, both upstairs and downstairs. There was no particular sign of entry on this building at all. At this point we came back out to the street, and I asked had Owens received any information from the hospital on Tippit. 
And he said they had just told him on channel 2 that he was dead. I got back in 105's car, went back around to the original scene, gave him his car keys back, and left his ear there, and at this point he came up to me with a Winston cigarette package. 
Mr. BELIN. Who was this? 
Mr. HILL. This was Poe. 
Mr. BELIN. You went back to the Tippit scene? 
Mr. HILL. Right. 
Mr. BELIN. You went back to 400 East 10th Street? 
Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in the 

[Donald Willis]

On 7/29/2024 at 8:56 PM, Greg Doudna said:

I see your point Donald. Rather than Hill picking up Russell at the Texaco--scratch that--perhaps Hill drove in Poe's car 105 with a witness with him (who could that be?) from 10th and Patton, got as far as Beckley and 12th looking for the fleeing gunman (hoping the witness in the car with him could identify him if they saw him), radioed from Beckley and 12th.

Then there is a radio dispatch alerting to activity at the Texaco area buildings' location and Hill drives there and assists. Then from there Hill returns to Tenth and Patton and returns car 105 to its regular officer Poe.

After Hill says Poe gives him the keys, the questioner (Belin) skips to a question about radio transmissions and Hill in answering "skips" to the point of those radio transmissions. He omitted overtly saying he drove with the witness to Beckley and 12th, even though we know he did that. But he was out somewhere away from 10th and Patton when he got the radio dispatch concerning activity at the Texaco where he went next.

Would that work for you?

If that works, the only anomaly is Hill apparently never volunteered the name of his crime scene witness he carried in his car (and dropped off at the Texaco location?). It would create two minor mysteries: who was it, and why did Hill not make it clearer voluntarily who it was. But neither of those minor mysteries require Hill to have been overtly lying in these testimonies, does it?

 

 

I'm okay with most of that, until it gets to the subject of the witness.  First, you assume--as most (including me, at one time) do--that it was a "crime scene witness", say, Benavides, Scoggins, or Callaway.  (At that one time, I vacillated between Benavides & Scoggins.)   Second, you assume that his ID is a "minor mystery".  It shouldn't be any kind of mystery now.  Dale Myers interviewed Hill, but apparently did not bring up the subject of his 1:28 witness.  He relies on his choice for that witness, Harold Russell, based only on the latter's FBI interview saying that he went with the cops, at one point.  But Hill never confirmed this, to my knowledge.  Myers apparently blew his chance to solve this problem.  He didn't even acknowledge that there was a problem, that Hill neglected to mention the subject in his WC testimony.

The silence of Hill and Myers re the former's omission at the hearings begins to turn this into a major mystery...

[Michael Kalin]

7 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

I'm okay with most of that, until it gets to the subject of the witness.  First, you assume--as most (including me, at one time) do--that it was a "crime scene witness", say, Benavides, Scoggins, or Callaway.  (At that one time, I vacillated between Benavides & Scoggins.)   Second, you assume that his ID is a "minor mystery".  It shouldn't be any kind of mystery now.  Dale Myers interviewed Hill, but apparently did not bring up the subject of his 1:28 witness.  He relies on his choice for that witness, Harold Russell, based only on the latter's FBI interview saying that he went with the cops, at one point.  But Hill never confirmed this, to my knowledge.  Myers apparently blew his chance to solve this problem.  He didn't even acknowledge that there was a problem, that Hill neglected to mention the subject in his WC testimony.

Hi Donald -- last time we took up this topic you argued in favor of Brock as Hill's "man in the car with me that can ID the suspect." See your "1:22pm DPD radio message translates as the jacket was planted and the witness transplanted (revision)" thread.

It still resonates to a degree although I can't say I've completely abandoned my position that Hill was just making noise about a passenger. The critical component of the radio message is the part about his location at 12th & Beckley, the sheriff's substation, at a time when the entire constabulary & others had deployed to the library. Hill put this information on the wire for a purpose, possibly to make sure the sheriff's dispatcher knew he was in position for an intercept if the ambush failed of its purpose.

As it turned out the ambush failed completely. Oswald, after crossing East Jefferson in front of the ambulance and heading toward the library, stopped and went somewhere else by means which can only be surmised. Incidentally, the idea that Oswald detoured to his room at the boarding house to pick up a revolver has little traction. Leaving aside the provenance issue, there was no way to hide a revolver in the cubbyhole he occupied from the prying eyes of his nosy landlady.

A better idea was to pick up his halves of the torn dollar bills discovered by Armstrong at the archives. Oswald needed them for authentication at either the library or the theater. Problem was he had spent the night in Irving, necessitating a stop at his room where they would have been easy to hide.

[Bill Brown]

5 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

Hi Donald -- last time we took up this topic you argued in favor of Brock as Hill's "man in the car with me that can ID the suspect." See your "1:22pm DPD radio message translates as the jacket was planted and the witness transplanted (revision)" thread.

It still resonates to a degree although I can't say I've completely abandoned my position that Hill was just making noise about a passenger. The critical component of the radio message is the part about his location at 12th & Beckley, the sheriff's substation, at a time when the entire constabulary & others had deployed to the library. Hill put this information on the wire for a purpose, possibly to make sure the sheriff's dispatcher knew he was in position for an intercept if the ambush failed of its purpose.

As it turned out the ambush failed completely. Oswald, after crossing East Jefferson in front of the ambulance and heading toward the library, stopped and went somewhere else by means which can only be surmised. Incidentally, the idea that Oswald detoured to his room at the boarding house to pick up a revolver has little traction. Leaving aside the provenance issue, there was no way to hide a revolver in the cubbyhole he occupied from the prying eyes of his nosy landlady.

A better idea was to pick up his halves of the torn dollar bills discovered by Armstrong at the archives. Oswald needed them for authentication at either the library or the theater. Problem was he had spent the night in Irving, necessitating a stop at his room where they would have been easy to hide.

 

"Oswald, after crossing East Jefferson in front of the ambulance and heading toward the library, stopped and went somewhere else by means which can only be surmised."

 

No.  All of the witnesses who watched Oswald state that he turned west onto Jefferson upon reaching the corner of Patton & Jefferson; nothing about momentarily heading east toward the library.

 

"He proceeded to run toward Jefferson, through this front yard right here (pointing to front yard at NW corner of Patton and Jefferson) and proceeded west on Jefferson." -- Ted Callaway (1986 London trial)

 

"OK; our office is up high where I can have a pretty good view of what was going on. I heard the shots and, when I heard the shots, I went out on this front porch which is, like I say, high, and I saw this man coming down the street with the gun in his hand, swinging it just like he was running. He turned the corner of Patton and Jefferson, going west, and put the gun in his pants and took off, walking." -- Warren Reynolds (Warren Commission testimony)

 

"...a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line. Upon reaching the intersection of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Street, the individual stopped running and began walking at a fast pace, heading west on Jefferson." -- 1/22/64 FBI report of interview with Harold Russell

 

"When the individual reached the intersection of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Street, he placed the weapon inside his waistband and began walking west on the north side of Jefferson Street." -- 1/22/64 FBI report of interview with Pat Patterson

 

"Approximately one minute later he observed a white male, approximately thirty years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying either an automatic pistol or a revolver in his hands, and while running was either attempting to reload same or conceal the weapon in his belt line.  Upon reaching the intersection of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, the individual then proceeded west on Jefferson..." -- 1/22/64 FBI report of interview with L.J. Lewis

 

[Greg Doudna]

21 hours ago, Donald Willis said:

I'm okay with most of that, until it gets to the subject of the witness.  First, you assume--as most (including me, at one time) do--that it was a "crime scene witness", say, Benavides, Scoggins, or Callaway.  (At that one time, I vacillated between Benavides & Scoggins.)   Second, you assume that his ID is a "minor mystery".  It shouldn't be any kind of mystery now.  Dale Myers interviewed Hill, but apparently did not bring up the subject of his 1:28 witness.  He relies on his choice for that witness, Harold Russell, based only on the latter's FBI interview saying that he went with the cops, at one point.  But Hill never confirmed this, to my knowledge.  Myers apparently blew his chance to solve this problem.  He didn't even acknowledge that there was a problem, that Hill neglected to mention the subject in his WC testimony.

The silence of Hill and Myers re the former's omission at the hearings begins to turn this into a major mystery...

OK Donald, in checking Harold Russell's FBI interview report of 2/25/64 I think the Myers' suggestion of Harold Russell is the obvious correct solution to Hill's witness in the patrol car with him, no minor mystery any more on that. Russell saw the fleeing gunman come south on Patton and turn west on Jefferson, with the gun, "jammed it in his pants under his belt and disappeared down Jefferson Boulevard. Russell stated he continued up Patton and came to the scene of the shooting and later discovered this was the shooting of Officer Tippit of the Dallas Police Department."

"Russell stated while at the scene some police officers asked him if he had seen who had done this or if he knew anything about the shooting, as he told them about seeing  the man running down the street with the pistol. He stated the officers, whose names he did not know, put him in a patrol car and had him point out the area where he had last seen the man with the pistol. Russell stated at this point he left the officers and then went in a nearby drug store and then went about his business..." (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=233515#relPageId=7

The timing is exactly right for the witness Hill carried, it matches. There is no other police conveyance of Harold Russell known. Russell was Hill's witness in the car of Hill. No more mystery. Problem solved. 

Hill didn't purposely neglect to mention this in his Warren Commission testimony. He wasn't asked, and he answered what he was asked. If he had been asked, it would have been told, no reason why it wouldn't.

Yes it would have been nice for Myers to have asked Hill and gotten confirmation from HIll on the identification, but that Myers didn't is neither here nor there as to the factual solution of the matter.

Its a simple, uncomplicated, straightforward identification solution that accounts for the facts and has no known objection or counterindication. What not to like?

 

[Donald Willis]

15 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

Hi Donald -- last time we took up this topic you argued in favor of Brock as Hill's "man in the car with me that can ID the suspect." See your "1:22pm DPD radio message translates as the jacket was planted and the witness transplanted (revision)" thread.

It still resonates to a degree although I can't say I've completely abandoned my position that Hill was just making noise about a passenger. The critical component of the radio message is the part about his location at 12th & Beckley, the sheriff's substation, at a time when the entire constabulary & others had deployed to the library. Hill put this information on the wire for a purpose, possibly to make sure the sheriff's dispatcher knew he was in position for an intercept if the ambush failed of its purpose.

As it turned out the ambush failed completely. Oswald, after crossing East Jefferson in front of the ambulance and heading toward the library, stopped and went somewhere else by means which can only be surmised. Incidentally, the idea that Oswald detoured to his room at the boarding house to pick up a revolver has little traction. Leaving aside the provenance issue, there was no way to hide a revolver in the cubbyhole he occupied from the prying eyes of his nosy landlady.

A better idea was to pick up his halves of the torn dollar bills discovered by Armstrong at the archives. Oswald needed them for authentication at either the library or the theater. Problem was he had spent the night in Irving, necessitating a stop at his room where they would have been easy to hide.

I have occasionally wondered about that revolver.  At one point, I think I maintained that he had it on him when he left the depository.

[Donald Willis]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

OK Donald, in checking Harold Russell's FBI interview report of 2/25/64 I think the Myers' suggestion of Harold Russell is the obvious correct solution to Hill's witness in the patrol car with him, no minor mystery any more on that. Russell saw the fleeing gunman come south on Patton and turn west on Jefferson, with the gun, "jammed it in his pants under his belt and disappeared down Jefferson Boulevard. Russell stated he continued up Patton and came to the scene of the shooting and later discovered this was the shooting of Officer Tippit of the Dallas Police Department."

"Russell stated while at the scene some police officers asked him if he had seen who had done this or if he knew anything about the shooting, as he told them about seeing  the man running down the street with the pistol. He stated the officers, whose names he did not know, put him in a patrol car and had him point out the area where he had last seen the man with the pistol. Russell stated at this point he left the officers and then went in a nearby drug store and then went about his business..." (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=233515#relPageId=7

The timing is exactly right for the witness Hill carried, it matches. There is no other police conveyance of Harold Russell known. Russell was Hill's witness in the car of Hill. No more mystery. Problem solved. 

Hill didn't purposely neglect to mention this in his Warren Commission testimony. He wasn't asked, and he answered what he was asked. If he had been asked, it would have been told, no reason why it wouldn't.

 

You forget that he was asked about the "auto 38" transmission, and that he palmed that off on Stringer:  "That probably is R.D. Stringer" (v7p57)  In other words, he's passing on his embarrassing error to Stringer.  Sweet guy, Hill. 

As Michael Kalin noted, above, I've argued for one of the Brocks as Hill's mobile witness, and still would--insert a Brock here as saying he or she last saw the perp heading up (or down) Jefferson, and you've got problems galore with the jacket story.  There already were problems with the Reynolds end of it--his WC testimony was undercut by the same-day WFAA-TV film footage of Reynolds telling the cops that he last saw the supposed jacket man heading into an abandoned house.  And the Brocks went with the Reynolds/parking lot fiction...  

[Greg Doudna]

34 minutes ago, Donald Willis said:

You forget that he was asked about the "auto 38" transmission, and that he palmed that off on Stringer:  "That probably is R.D. Stringer" (v7p57)  In other words, he's passing on his embarrassing error to Stringer.  Sweet guy, Hill. 

As Michael Kalin noted, above, I've argued for one of the Brocks as Hill's mobile witness, and still would--insert a Brock here as saying he or she last saw the perp heading up (or down) Jefferson, and you've got problems galore with the jacket story.  There already were problems with the Reynolds end of it--his WC testimony was undercut by the same-day WFAA-TV film footage of Reynolds telling the cops that he last saw the supposed jacket man heading into an abandoned house.  And the Brocks went with the Reynolds/parking lot fiction...  

But Brock was at the Texaco, not at the Tippit crime scene from where Hill took Poe's car. The reason Hill would take Poe's car in the first place would be because he had that witness right there at the crime scene who said he could recognize the gunman if he saw him. That fits Harold Russell who was at the crime scene, at exactly the time in agreement with when Hill left from there, Russell saying he left with police, and then Hill radioing in that he has a witness in his car.

You don't offer a single reason opposed to this obvious and logical identification, but instead want to suggest Brock who is not even at the crime scene was apparently picked up by Hill at the Texaco. Where does Brock say anything about going in a police car away from the Texaco? How would Hill know Brock was a witness to go to the Texaco to pick him up?

What do you have against the Harold Russell identification? 

Is it because if its Brock then there are more complications and contradictions, hence that is the appeal? 🙂

On your first paragraph, you may be right that Hill knew better on that one, sort of looks that way. 

[Michael Kalin]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

But Brock was at the Texaco, not at the Tippit crime scene from where Hill took Poe's car. The reason Hill would take Poe's car in the first place would be because he had that witness right there at the crime scene who said he could recognize the gunman if he saw him. That fits Harold Russell who was at the crime scene, at exactly the time in agreement with when Hill left from there, Russell saying he left with police, and then Hill radioing in that he has a witness in his car.

Per your quote of Russell's 2/25/64 FBI report he remained in the "area where he had last seen the man with the pistol...at this point he left the officers and then went in a nearby drug store." This was Skillern's & Sons on Crawford.

The sheriff's substation at 12th & Beckley was distant. Not sure why there is resistance to reckoning with the implications of Hill's presence at this location. Why did he wait there for a suspect?

Edited August 1 by Michael Kalin

[Greg Doudna]

Officer/car 550/2, on the police radio transcript, CE1974, is identified as Gerald Hill in that transcript. That is the officer transmission saying a witness is in the car radioing from 12th and Beckley. There are several other transmissions from 550/2.

How is it known that 550/2 is Gerald Hill?

Can someone explain this? Thanks.

 

[Donald Willis]

22 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

But Brock was at the Texaco, not at the Tippit crime scene from where Hill took Poe's car. The reason Hill would take Poe's car in the first place would be because he had that witness right there at the crime scene who said he could recognize the gunman if he saw him. That fits Harold Russell who was at the crime scene, at exactly the time in agreement with when Hill left from there, Russell saying he left with police, and then Hill radioing in that he has a witness in his car.

You don't offer a single reason opposed to this obvious and logical identification, but instead want to suggest Brock who is not even at the crime scene was apparently picked up by Hill at the Texaco. Where does Brock say anything about going in a police car away from the Texaco? How would Hill know Brock was a witness to go to the Texaco to pick him up?

What do you have against the Harold Russell identification? 

Is it because if its Brock then there are more complications and contradictions, hence that is the appeal? 🙂

On your first paragraph, you may be right that Hill knew better on that one, sort of looks that way. 

You say that Brock was not at the Tippit scene.  Here's an excerpt from my earlier "1:22pm DPD radio message...":

"Fourth (getting somewhere) clue:  Dale Myers insists that Walker met and talked to Warren Reynolds at the murder scene:  "Reynolds returned to 10th & Patton at about [1:20], despite Reynolds' testimony to the contrary" (p112).  True, in 1983, Walker told Myers that he did meet Reynolds, about 1:22.  However, he adds, "One of the used car lot operators saw the incident... Warren Reynolds" (p114).  The latter never said that he saw the shooting--Walker's memory fails him here.

And Reynolds would hardly have been the one to tell Walker, "Last seen about 300 block of E. Jefferson".  Ruinously for him, Walker told Myers that it was "Reynolds [who] gave me the description of the gunman" (p114).  Walker was apparently unaware that TV film footage has turned up showing Reynolds telling police at the scene that he last saw a suspicious man going into the back of an old house near the Texaco station (WM p131).  Reynolds, then, could not have been Walker's "300 block of E. Jefferson" witness.  (Reynolds' suspicious man may not have been the gunman at all, but a vigilante trailing the gunman.)  Myers, then, with one hand, was simply extending Walker's witness-identity deception, despite his own text and frame grabs which, with the other hand, expose said deception!  Myers giveth and Myers taketh away.

Fifth (gathering steam) clue:  Myers then "buttresses" the invented Walker/Reynolds confab with yet another out-of-thin-air incident, based on the word of... no one at all:  "Warren Reynolds, who had come with [Sgt. Bud Owens & Assistant DA Bill Alexander] from 10th & Patton, pointed to an old house near the Texaco station..." (p120)  Alexander did not testify to the Warren Commission, and Owens, in his Commission testimony, did not mention bringing along a witness to the Texaco area.  None of the principals, then--Reynolds, Walker, Alexander, Owens--can support Myers' two little vignettes re Reynolds going to and leaving the scene of the crime circa 1:20 and 1:22.  Thin air.

Sixth (Eureka!) clue:  Relocation, relocation, relocation.  Why would Walker and Myers go to so much trouble to falsely identify and relocate a witness?  Well, what other witness or witnesses were "over here on Jefferson"?  (Pat Patterson was with Reynolds, so he was most probably an old-house witness, too.)

Robert and Mary Brock were, in effect the gatekeepers of the parking-lot suspect.  Mary Brock was the only witness who clearly stated that she "last observed [the suspect] in the parking lot directly behind" the service station. (WM p551)  They may have seen the suspect, but not in the parking lot, and certainly not doffing his jacket.  Because at 1:22, he was reported "seen about 300 block of E. Jefferson", still wearing his "white jacket".  Certainly worth Walker's false identification of his witness, and Myers' subsequent, false relocation of him elsewhere.  Two wrongs and no right.
  
And the first transmission--at 1:21--re the Texaco location was the dispatcher's "Subject just passed 401 E. Jefferson" (CE 705p21), the last address, going west, before the 300 block.  One of the Brocks must have been its source, as well as the source for "300 block of E. Jefferson".

Seventh clue:  At 1:26, Sgt. Gerald Hill reported from 12th & Beckley, "Have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets... one." (CE 1974 p63)  About 1:23, at the Tippit scene, according to Hill's testimony, "Another person came up [and] told us the man had run over into the funeral home parking lot", which was opposite the Texaco station (v7p48).  Sgt. Bud Owens similarly testified that, at the "scene of the shooting... we were informed by a man whom I do not know that the suspect that shot Officer Tippit had run across a vacant lot toward Jefferson" (v7p79).  Someone, then, from the Texaco area--Hill and Owens both garbled the where of it--had run down to where the police were first congregating.  And Hill, clearly, immediately, took this man near to where the man had last seen the suspect, the 300 block of E. Jefferson.

Eighth clue:  But there must have been a big problem--retrospectively--with this witness.  In fact, there is, in Hill's testimony, an implicit, hapless denial that he even had a witness or that he had even radioed from 12th & Beckley, even though it's on the record.  On the record, Gerald!  Both the FBI transcription (see above) and Myers (p124) acknowledge that Hill sent the 1:26 message.  Hill testified, falsely, that, about 1:25, he left the Tippit scene and "whipped around the block.  I went down to the first intersection east of the block where all this incident occurred and made a right turn and traveled one block and came back up on Jefferson", where he met Owens at the Texaco/old-house site (v7p48).  The harried Warren Commission did not have time to check out every DPD-spun tale. 

Who was Hill's radioactive witness, whom, figuratively, he dare not touch, or acknowledge, let alone name?  Myers apparently knew, hence his totally unsupported relocation of that witness (as well as Officer Walker) from Crawford & Jefferson to 10th & Patton.  This is called throwing the hounds off the scent.  But by fallaciously drawing a witness away from the Crawford area, Myers unintentionally draws attention to that area.  And Hill and Owens suggest, clumsily, but perhaps basically accurately, that a person from Texaco ran down to 10th & Patton.

Reynolds was looking east from Crawford area.  But Hill's witness was looking west, towards Beckley.  Now who could have gotten a pretty good look at the fleeing suspect, good enough to have estimated height, weight, race, and age, and described the man's clothing?  Who could have seen him that closely--seen him as, say, he passed the Texaco station?  Robert and/or Mary Brock, of course.  Walker doesn't indicate the sex or number of his witnesses ("We have a description"), so it could have been either of the Brocks who contacted the dispatcher about the same time as did Walker. 

And, just as the WFAA-TV footage of Reynolds exposes the Walker lie, so it exposes the Brocks' lies.  As noted above, Mrs. Brock stated that she informed Reynolds that "she last observed [the suspect] in the parking lot directly behind Ballew's Texaco Service Station".  Clearly, she did *not* so inform him, not without some strong input from Reynolds, who had his own story to tell and was telling it to the cops, that day, and would have told it to her.  But she failed to give herself and her husband a lifeline out of the Reynolds morass.  A frame-grab is worth a thousand words.  Moral:  Don't hitch your wagon to Warren Reynolds.
    
Despite their apparent proximity to the suspect, neither Brock was invited either to attend a lineup or to testify for the Commission.  It might have been too easy, then, for people to connect the dots: "over here on Jefferson", "300 block of E. Jefferson", the Brocks.  As the witnesses closest to both the 300 block of E. Jefferson and to the parking lot, the Brocks had to be downplayed, had to be weaned off Jefferson and weaned onto the parking lot.  (Sgt. Hill didn't just downplay them--he vaporized them, or one of them.)  More publicity would have meant more scrutiny, prickly questions.  (On that same day--Jan. 21, 1964--Reynolds himself was slipping further into the morass:  For his part, he misleadingly told the FBI then that he "last observed the individual to turn north" by the service station:  "[The Brocks] informed him the individual had gone through the parking lot." [FBI interview report/WMp544]  Naively, he apparently thought that the WFAA footage had been deep-sixed.)

In sum:  The jacket was planted, the Texaco jacket witnesses were transplanted, Oswald was, beyond doubt, being framed for Tippit's murder, and Dale Myers was last seen imploding.