Limo fragment question

[Pat Speer]

28 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

 

Pat,

I've studied Dr. Chesser's analysis of the bullet fragments, and find it quite conclusive-- speaking as a physician who has dissected a human skull.

I've also seen patients in ERs with gunshot wounds to the head.  I know what an entry wound to the forehead looks like.

As for the Lone Nut ballistics mythology, can you and Gerry Down kindly show us JFK's facial exit wound here?

A bullet fired from the TSBD and entering JFK's posterior skull would have blown off the right half of his face.

This was demonstrated in ballistics testing on a cadaver with a rifle shot from the TSBD.

I see JFK's right forehead entry wound here, but where's your alleged facial exit wound?

Oh my. You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. I have never claimed a bullet entered the back of JFK's head and exited his face. As stated earlier in this thread, I spent years trying to get the wounds to align and concluded the only trajectory that made sense was a bullet's clipping the top of his head at the supposed exit. Whether from the front or from behind, it doesn't really matter. 

 

[Kevin Balch]

So where WAS the Harper fragment found???

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

The burden of proof is on the EOP single assassin theorists to demonstrate that the trajectories could actually work. 

But don't you think a bullet could change directions (if only slightly) after striking JFK's head at full velocity, thereby creating a trajectory through the President's cranium that certainly would not be a straight one?

Edited August 12 by David Von Pein

[W. Niederhut]

13 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Oh my. You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. I have never claimed a bullet entered the back of JFK's head and exited his face. As stated earlier in this thread, I spent years trying to get the wounds to align and concluded the only trajectory that made sense was a bullet's clipping the top of his head at the supposed exit. Whether from the front or from behind, it doesn't really matter. 

 

Sure thing.

And Newton's Laws of Motion don't matter either, eh?

Now that you have professed yourself a solipsist, it all makes sense, Pat.

There is no such thing as knowledge??

On the other hand, Gerry Down seems to think that the entry wound visible on JFK's forehead (above) is an exit wound.

In the World According to Gerry, the assassin must have been crouching down in the grass across the street from the Grassy Knoll, firing a shot toward the picket fence.

Edited August 12 by W. Niederhut

[Pat Speer]

5 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Sure thing.

And Newton's Laws of Motion don't matter either, eh?

Now that you have professed yourself a solipsist, it all makes sense, Pat.

There is no such thing as knowledge??

On the other hand, Gerry Down seems to think that the entry wound visible on JFK's forehead (above) is an exit wound.

In the World According to Gerry, the assassin must have been crouching down in the grass across the street from the Grassy Knoll, firing a shot toward the picket fence.

Wait. What? There is no entry wound visible on the forehead! No one saw such a thing at Parkland or Bethesda. 

A lot of the acrimony towards me began when I started pointing out how Mantik and Horne have been playing around with this for decades.

To be clear, McClelland was asked where he THOUGHT the bullet entered, and pointed out a location on the forehead, while admitting he never saw such a wound. And Crenshaw did much the same. Neither of them ever claimed to see such a wound.

And Tom Robinson? He said he saw a tiny wound that was not a bullet hole by the temple and then changed this to be two tiny wounds on the cheek. He NEVER said he saw a bullet hole on the forehead. EVER. But Mantik and Horne have long pretended he did. Because this seemed to align with Joe O'Donnell's claim he was shown a photo of a hole in this location by Knudsen. Only...Knudsen made no mention of such a photo when interviewed by the HSCA and O'Donnell was later revealed to be a bit loopy...which Horne KNEW because O'Donnell told him he and Jackie had spent a day together editing the Zapruder film. 

And James Jenkins? He specified numerous times that there was NO such wound. He said he saw some gray on the bone by the right ear that he thought designated an entrance, but specified many times there was NO hole on the forehead.

So how did Horne deal with this?

He flat-out lied and told a massive audience that Jenkins had long claimed there was a bullet hole on the forehead!!! And even pointed out where Jenkins supposedly pointed out this hole. and it was right where Chesser claimed there was a hole.

It's a HOAX. 

[W. Niederhut]

Pat,

     Have you ever seen a dead guy with a gunshot entry wound in his forehead?

     Get out your reading glasses and study this photo more carefully.

     There is no facial exit wound-- which we would expect to see if Oswald had shot JFK from the TSBD-- correct?

     Now.  Look closely.  Do you see the entry wound in the right upper forehead?

     Dr. Chesser's analysis of the bullet fragmentation (in the lateral skull x-rays) proves that the bullet was travelling posteriorly after striking JFK's forehead.

     Ergo, JFK was shot in the forehead by a sniper positioned in front and to the right of the limo.

[David Von Pein]

7 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

     There is no facial exit wound-- which we would expect to see if Oswald had shot JFK from the TSBD-- correct?

Not at all.

Haven't you ever even considered the notion that the bullet changed directions (at least a little bit) after hitting the back of Kennedy's head?

[Johnny Cairns]

20 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Not at all.

Haven't you ever even considered the notion that the bullet changed directions (at least a little bit) after hitting the back of Kennedy's head?

So just to clarify we are currently up-to… 

A magic bullet. 

A delayed reaction. 

A neuromuscular reaction. 

The headshot bullet changing directions. 

What did the Western Cartridge Company put in these things?? 
 

[Pat Speer]

39 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Pat,

     Have you ever seen a dead guy with a gunshot entry wound in his forehead?

     Get out your reading glasses and study this photo more carefully.

     There is no facial exit wound-- which we would expect to see if Oswald had shot JFK from the TSBD-- correct?

     Now.  Look closely.  Do you see the entry wound in the right upper forehead?

     Dr. Chesser's analysis of the bullet fragmentation (in the lateral skull x-rays) proves that the bullet was travelling posteriorly after striking JFK's forehead.

     Ergo, JFK was shot in the forehead by a sniper positioned in front and to the right of the limo.

This photo has been studied by numerous witnesses who saw the body at Parkland and Bethesda. And none of them have said the dark triangle is a bullet hole. Heck, even those pushing there was a hole on the forehead--Mantik, et al--claim the bullet hole was covered by a lock of hair and not observed at Parkland or by most of the witnesses at Bethesda. 

The one exception they would normally cite is Tom Robinson. And Robinson actually said there was a tiny fragment wound or wounds by the temple or cheek, and claimed there was no bullet hole on the front of the head. 

As stated, moreover, James Jenkins said there was a presumed bullet hole by the ear. And Horne turned around and claimed he'd said it was a hole on the forehead. 

Whether it is a deliberate hoax or just really lousy research, the 40 years later claim by researchers there was a bullet hole on the forehead is an embarrassment to the research community, IMO. 

As far as Chesser, I've met Mike and believe him to be nice guy who got swept up in helping Mantik et al in their quest. 

 

Edited August 12 by Pat Speer

[W. Niederhut]

28 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Not at all.

Haven't you ever even considered the notion that the bullet changed directions (at least a little bit) after hitting the back of Kennedy's head?

During ballistic testing, a Carcano shot fired from the TSBD blew off the right half of the cadaver's face.

[W. Niederhut]

I was expecting a response where Pat Speer advised us to ignore the evidence of our own eyes.

And, voila, there it is...

Nothing to see here, folks.  Move along now.

And pay no attention to Dr. Chesser's analysis of the bullet fragmentation proving that the forehead shot came from the front. 🙄

[Kevin Balch]

2 hours ago, Johnny Cairns said:

In my opinion it is beyond any doubt that President Kennedy suffered a fatal and massive exit wound located in the occipital parietal area of his head. We have over 30 witnesses that have attested to this. 
 

His brain was also, virtually destroyed, with pieces of his cerebellum dripping onto the stretcher that raced him to TR1. 
 

At trial the autopsy would have been exposed for what it was, a sham. It was so poor, so inept an autopsy that 60 years after the fact we still don’t know the origins of the wounds suffered by President Kennedy. 

How does this explain the location of the Harper fragment being in front of the limo which no one who believes the rear of the skull exit theory wants to talk about?

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

But don't you think a bullet could change directions (if only slightly) after striking JFK's head at full velocity, thereby creating a trajectory through the President's cranium that certainly would not be a straight one?

See my reply to Jean Paul. I do think a significant deflection is possible, especially for a bullet striking occipital bone. I do not recall ever seeing an attempt to calculate that deflection angle from an EOP entrance though. Do you have anything like that? 

Basically what I’d like to see is some sort of trajectory analysis from the 6th floor to the EOP to the presumed exit to the limo windshield frame.

[David Von Pein]

32 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

I do not recall ever seeing an attempt to calculate that deflection angle from an EOP entrance though. Do you have anything like that? 

No, but since the bullet definitely did not enter at the EOP level (IMO), any deflection angle from that point is rather irrelevant.

 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

During ballistic testing, a Carcano shot fired from the TSBD blew off the right half of the cadaver's face.

Source link for this please. Thank you.