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Hi Terry,

Very interesting, Thanks

In 1854 Ohio country, Mrs. Walker, the wife of a preacher upon the forced movement of Indians from that area wrote;

"Go, fated Indian, to the farthest verge

Of earth's remotest shore;

There let the night-bird sing thy dirge,

When thy weary wandering's o'er.

Go sit upon the ocean's brink,

And in its solemn moan,

Fit music for thy broken heart,

Forget thy distant home.

But the white man's foot is on thy track,

As the blood hound seeks the hare;

Then arise,and scale some barren rock,

For the white man will not spare.

Go dwell upon some craggy peak,

Where the eagle makes her nest,

And eternal snows are drifting down-

There thy weary foot may rest.

Away from where your kindred sleep,

Beneath a fridged sky;

Where the wintery blast will freeze thy tears

There lay thee down and die.

Cast not a look to thy native land,

But to that blissful shore,

Where oppression's sigh is never heared,

And thou shall weep no more."

Thought you would like it.

Harry

********************************************************************

Thank you, Harry, I do. I find this part to be particularly poignant.

Go sit upon the ocean's brink,

And in its solemn moan,

Fit music for thy broken heart,

Forget thy distant home.

But the white man's foot is on thy track,

As the blood hound seeks the hare;

Then arise,and scale some barren rock,

For the white man will not spare.

I only wish I could find it in my heart to understand why the white man had to have the attitude that this land belonged to him regardless of how many centuries the Native Americans had been cultivating, gathering, hunting, and all without the waste of one piece of bone or skin. They utilized everything they found, and took only what they needed, and when they needed it. The settlers came across the plains like a plague of locusts, and being "civilized", lacked the sense to read the signs along the way. The subtle hints of what should have been recognized as occupied territory. But they were ill-equipped as trackers, hunters, or skilled in the nuances required as communicators with the people whose land they were literally taking over. The only white men who were fairly adept at the Native American languages were the trappers who traded with them. The Five Civilized Tribes and the Iroquois Nation weren't savages. They had productive communities.

I find it increasingly sad the older I get, because it becomes more apparent to me with each national holiday that passes, just how unevolved we are as humans. And, I don't mean intellectually, either. There are many folks out there with high I.Q.'s and MBA's and Doctorates, that's book learning. What I'm talking about is what's in our hearts and minds. How we raise our children. What kind of ethics we teach them. What kind of social skills we pass down to them, by way of example. The kind of respect and tolerance we teach them to have for the variety of colors, cultures, races of mankind, who are all from the same race known as the Human Beings.

Therefore, when a holiday such as this past one, is made out to be something so marvelous, and miraculous, and touted to be the epitome of honor, greatness, bravery, generosity, and brotherhood, I just feel I need to remember, and possibly remind those who are so caught up in America's "greatness", of what actually transpired. How all the fine intentions set down in The Declaration of Independence and The United States Constitution, almost left our sisters and brothers, who may have been a shade or two darker than those of the paler Europeans hitting the shores of the Eastern Woodlands, those taking it upon themselves to create their Manifest Destiny, how it almost left those who were already here for centuries, out of the loop, almost to the point of extinction, through extermination and assimilation.

So, for those of you who would say, "But the Native Americans at their peak only totalled 8 million, equivalent to the population of New York City, today." I ask you, "Humans were designed to be stacked upon one another in cubicles like hamsters in cages?" And, for those of you who would counter, "But look at how far we've come, look at what we've made, look at what we've got. Would you rather go back to living with outhouses, or no running water?" I can only respond that I feel I've been fortunate enough, in my life, to have been there and done that, and if need be, would not have a problem re-adjusting.

But right now, with the world locked into this phase of greed-at-all-cost, oil-at-all-cost, and the mindset it encourages, well it feels as if we're choking the daylights out of each other with our narrow scope of vision. An unnatural vision, born out of materialistic, non-biodegradable substitutes for all that we should have been learning to do and create with our hands, mind, and heart. I'm not saying there aren't people out there who do, there are. There just aren't enough of them left out there with a desire to learn, or to pass it down anymore, that's all.

I think we've hit critical mass, as a "civilized" society, anyway.

So, for those of you who might have flown across this continent, and marveled at the expanse of land below you, remember, it already belongs to a developer who's subdivided it, planning on paving it, filling it with tract houses, high-density apartment buildings, and malls. But, that's just my humble observance.

Thank you, John for your kind words.

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Hi, Terry

As you likely know the greatest push against the Indian was begun in earnest

during the Revolutionary war, and moreso during the war of 1812. Simply

because most tribes aided England and British Canada against the American

colonys and states.

Thanks.

Harry

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In response to everyones comments, I am sorry, I was in a bad mood when i posted that comment,  :( . I have tried putting a pic of myself, but it obviously didn't work, so I will try that again. It is a good poem though.  :)

Thank you, Adam, for having the sensitivity to explain yourself to us. You have no idea how much respect I now have for you since displaying this humble side of your personality. It speaks volumes for your good character, and upbringing.

Harry has been extremely generous in coming forth with many aspects of his life, of which he's obviously had to come to terms with over the years. He didn't have to volunteer his help, and could have just as easily kept everything to himself. I consider people such as Harry to be truly genuine, which is rare among those of his profession who've chosen to contribute, their time and knowledge of the events that happened, to this on-going investigation. He's never sent us on a wild goose chase nor been a distributor of misinfo/disinfo. I only have the utmost respect for our friend and teacher, here.

So, again let me extend my hand in friendship, and thanks for your response.

"I have tried putting a pic of myself, but it obviously didn't work, so I will try that again. It is a good poem though. ;)"

When I had trouble putting up my bio, and had absolutely no idea of how to scan my picture into an icon, I sent it to John in an e-mail and he was able to set it up for me. All you have to do is ask, him. :)

Thankyou Terry, and again i apologise to Harry and others.

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In response to everyones comments, I am sorry, I was in a bad mood when i posted that comment,  :( . I have tried putting a pic of myself, but it obviously didn't work, so I will try that again. It is a good poem though.  :)

Thank you, Adam, for having the sensitivity to explain yourself to us. You have no idea how much respect I now have for you since displaying this humble side of your personality. It speaks volumes for your good character, and upbringing.

Harry has been extremely generous in coming forth with many aspects of his life, of which he's obviously had to come to terms with over the years. He didn't have to volunteer his help, and could have just as easily kept everything to himself. I consider people such as Harry to be truly genuine, which is rare among those of his profession who've chosen to contribute, their time and knowledge of the events that happened, to this on-going investigation. He's never sent us on a wild goose chase nor been a distributor of misinfo/disinfo. I only have the utmost respect for our friend and teacher, here.

So, again let me extend my hand in friendship, and thanks for your response.

"I have tried putting a pic of myself, but it obviously didn't work, so I will try that again. It is a good poem though. ;)"

When I had trouble putting up my bio, and had absolutely no idea of how to scan my picture into an icon, I sent it to John in an e-mail and he was able to set it up for me. All you have to do is ask, him. :)

Thankyou Terry, and again i apologise to Harry and others.

Hi, Adam

Don't sweat it dude all is well, welcome aboard the Forum.

Harry

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As an American who was educated in the '60's and '70's in the public school system [and one who attempts to continue his education by reading, both print and electronic media], I recall being taught the principle of "Manifest Destiny" in US History classes. Simply said, it was a policy of unfettered expansion of the American frontier based upon the premise that American domination of the continent was preordained, that it was America's destiny, that this land was meant to be ours for the taking.

In the 20th century, the geographical expansion of America effectively ended; but in the 1960's there arose another group who put forward yet another doctrine of "Manifest Destiny," this time focused upon America's domination of space exploration and travel as our inherited right. I believe that JFK tapped into this national claim of a "right" to dominate space as he aimed NASA toward the moon.

Now, no longer could it be said "the sky's the limit;" there WAS no limit to the worlds that "manifest destiny" would propel us toward. But fate had other ideas, and America's "manifest destiny" in the sky began to fade as more earthly problems took over the national consciousness. The Challenger disaster in 1986 brought home the perils of space flight, and the Columbia tragedy another 15 or so years hence brought the space program, effectively, to a halt.

Americans realized that the "manifest destiny" doctrine didn't work in space; then they began to question its application on good ol' Planet Earth. September 11, 2001 made many Americans question whether the heavenly protections and guidance they'd assumed for America was no longer in effect...and others questioned whether it ever was. For once, the American myth was exposed as such...and many weren't prepared to accept that. Particularly those who occupied offices in the Executive Branch of US government, some who don't yet understand that fundamentally good men CAN and DO make fundamentally BAD decisions that have fundamentally bad CONSEQUENCES with worldwide repercussions.

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As an American who was educated in the '60's and '70's in the public school system [and one who attempts to continue his education by reading, both print and electronic media], I recall being taught the principle of "Manifest Destiny" in US History classes. Simply said, it was a policy of unfettered expansion of the American frontier based upon the premise that American domination of the continent was preordained, that it was America's destiny, that this land was meant to be ours for the taking.

In the 20th century, the geographical expansion of America effectively ended; but in the 1960's there arose another group who put forward yet another doctrine of "Manifest Destiny," this time focused upon America's domination of space exploration and travel as our inherited right. I believe that JFK tapped into this national claim of a "right" to dominate space as he aimed NASA toward the moon.

Now, no longer could it be said "the sky's the limit;" there WAS no limit to the worlds that "manifest destiny" would propel us toward. But fate had other ideas, and America's "manifest destiny" in the sky began to fade as more earthly problems took over the national consciousness. The Challenger disaster in 1986 brought home the perils of space flight, and the Columbia tragedy another 15 or so years hence brought the space program, effectively, to a halt.

Americans realized that the "manifest destiny" doctrine didn't work in space; then they began to question its application on good ol' Planet Earth. September 11, 2001 made many Americans question whether the heavenly protections and guidance they'd assumed for America was no longer in effect...and others questioned whether it ever was. For once, the American myth was exposed as such...and many weren't prepared to accept that. Particularly those who occupied offices in the Executive Branch of US government, some who don't yet understand that fundamentally good men CAN and DO make fundamentally BAD decisions that have fundamentally bad CONSEQUENCES with worldwide repercussions.

I recall being taught the principle of "Manifest Destiny" in US History classes. Simply said, it was a policy of unfettered expansion of the American frontier based upon the premise that American domination of the continent was preordained, that it was America's destiny, that this land was meant to be ours for the taking.

I remember reading about it that way, too. I always wondered who told them it was O.K. to take something that didn't belong to them. The whole system reminded me of a bunch of penal colony squatters. I know there were renegade Native Americans who allowed themselves to become coerced by the Dutch, Spanish, and the British, but for the most part the majority of them suffered subjugation, and brutal treatment, especially under Father Junipera Serra who beat them and drove them like a herd of beasts of burden. And, there was the formidable Trail of Tears that managed to catch part of my mother's people up into it, all the way to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, where she and my Grandfather would end up going to visit, after taking their cotton and crops to market down in New Orleans via the TVA, and on their way back, swinging off to the Arkansas River and on to Oklahoma. Alot of the Cherokees ended up literally heading for the hills of the Carolinas in an effort to hide out from Andrew Jackson's forced march to the "Indian Territories", as the state of Oklahoma was originally founded for. And, although they say, "one rotten apple can spoil the whole bunch", I have a hard time believing that. I would think that it was more a matter of greed, hautiness, and arrogance fueled of ignorance. Because, when you actually think about who ended up populating the continent, it seemed more like the dregs of Europe, rather than the established nobility, or upper classes. Hey, maybe that's the reason why we score such a low average of the mean in intellect in the U.S. today compared to even South America.

Of course, that's pure speculation on my part, though.

But, somewhere along the line I've become out-numbered here, so I'll just add that knowing all of this doesn't make me feel any better, but I'll deal with it. :)

So thanks again, guys. It's been great trading ideas with you, and I'm always ready to find new ways of viewing our accomplishments, as well as our foibles.

I promise to keep an open mind as much as I can regarding my ancestors.

1/4 Cherokee and 1/4 Creek - Maternal side. Time for me to wrap it up for the night. Back again tomorrow.

Ter

Edited by Terry Mauro
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Hi, Terry

As you likely know the greatest push against the Indian was begun in earnest

during the Revolutionary war, and moreso during the war of 1812. Simply

because most tribes aided England and British Canada against the American

colonys and states.

Thanks.

Harry

Hi Harry

You don't think that the movement to eradicate or move aside the Indians would have occurred anyway, whether or not the Indians sided with the British? The Indians who fought for the U.S. side during the War of 1812 were treated no better than the ones who fought for the British. The simple truth is that "Manifest Destiny" meant that the Red Man was in the way.

All my best

Chris

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Hi, Terry

As you likely know the greatest push against the Indian was begun in earnest

during the Revolutionary war, and moreso during the war of 1812. Simply

because most tribes aided England and British Canada against the American

colonys and states.

Thanks.

Harry

Hi Harry

You don't think that the movement to eradicate or move aside the Indians would have occurred anyway, whether or not the Indians sided with the British? The Indians who fought for the U.S. side during the War of 1812 were treated no better than the ones who fought for the British. The simple truth is that "Manifest Destiny" meant that the Red Man was in the way.

All my best

Chris

Hi, Chris

I am sure you are correct. Also, because The American Indian could not be enslaved like the Negro, was a consideration to reduce them.

Harry

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Hi, Terry

As you likely know the greatest push against the Indian was begun in earnest

during the Revolutionary war, and moreso during the war of 1812. Simply

because most tribes aided England and British Canada against the American

colonys and states.

Thanks.

Harry

Hi Harry

You don't think that the movement to eradicate or move aside the Indians would have occurred anyway, whether or not the Indians sided with the British? The Indians who fought for the U.S. side during the War of 1812 were treated no better than the ones who fought for the British. The simple truth is that "Manifest Destiny" meant that the Red Man was in the way.

All my best

Chris

Hi, Chris

I am sure you are correct. Also, because The American Indian could not be enslaved like the Negro, was a consideration to reduce them.

Harry

Hi Harry

Yes I believe you have nailed it with that statement, Harry.

Chris

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This is the JFK debate forum, not for poems about America that have little educational value. Maybe you accidently posted your poem in the wrong forum.

This has been placed in the wrong thread but the points made by Harry and Terry are worth discussing.

As an outsider I have long seen America as a flawed democracy. However, our media, portrays America very differently. The impression is given that the American people are not aware of what is happening to their country. This has been reinforced by the re-election of George Bush.

Since starting the JFK Assassination of Forum I have been given new insights into American politics. I know you are not typical but your understanding of the American political process has amazed me. However, your postings have also disturbed me. In the UK we have similar problems with our flawed democratic system as you do. Yet, most of us still feel we can do something about it. Whereas American posters seem resigned to their fate. I thought it might be worth discussing this issue on another thread. Please add your comments to this link in the political section of the Forum:

Is America a democracy? If not, can it become a democracy?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4347

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