Terrorist Attack on London

[John Simkin]

There is perhaps a greater threat to our lives and liberties than the terrorists themselves. This is our apparent willingness to let the police force run out of control. There are worrying signs that increasing numbers of people think we can best protect ourselves in this way.

This is of course the strategy of the terrorists. George Bush (9/11) and Tony Blair (7/7) have both taken the bait.

Here is an interesting letter from David Kerr in today's Guardian:

"In 1965, I was among the sponsors of Sydney Silverman's bill to abolish the death penalty. I did not anticipate that 40 years on, the lawful killing by the state which we believed the act had made unlawful should be restored without prior consideration by parliament. This is made even uglier by the hidden decision-taking involved and the fact that the restoration of responsibility is not to the judiciary, but to the police."

David Kerr

MP for Wandsworth 1964-70

[Graham Davies]

Read what the public says at the Have Your Say section of the BBC site:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4711189.stm

I haven't counted the "fors" and "againsts" re the shoot to kill policy, but it looks like it's around 50-50.

You should hear some of the comments on this issue in my local pub - which is around halfway between a large council estate and several middle-class private estates. I dare not repeat them here. Suffice it to say that most of the views expressed appear to fall to the right of those of the average member of the BNP. I guess it will take some time for reason to prevail - if at all. The times in which we live make us all a bit edgy and unreasonable.

[Guest]

You should hear some of the comments on this issue in my local pub - which is around halfway between a large council estate and several middle-class private estates. I dare not repeat them here.

We can only I suppose blame their teachers for their lack of a political education.

I overheard some bloke in my golf club this morning suggest we should bring back the death penalty for suicide bombers ....... form an orderly queue lads

[Guest Stephen Turner]

You should hear some of the comments on this issue in my local pub - which is around halfway between a large council estate and several middle-class private estates. I dare not repeat them here.

We can only I suppose blame their teachers for their lack of a political education.

I overheard some bloke in my golf club this morning suggest we should bring back the death penalty for suicide bombers ....... form an orderly queue lads

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like Steve Bells comment, a large poster is stuck to a wall in an obviously poor area, the writing says, " Muslems, think before you explode"

[Guest Toby Cope]

But that is a highly racist review.

We can't/shouldn't go around moving away whenever we see a asian with a backpack.

I was on the train today and overheard people talking. One of them said they can't trust any Asians nowadays. The other agreed and went onto saying how they moved carriage when an Asian with a backpack got on the train. The third person, a man I think, then told of how he saw and Asian man with a backpack heading for the door of the carriage so he stood in the way so the asian man couldn't get in!

It is absoutely completely unfair and racist behavior, as much as terroism should not be tolerated, nor should racism as far as i'm concerned.

This is coming from me, a younger persons perspective on all this happening, my Dad is English, my step mum is a muslim and half indian, as is my step-sister.

Edited July 27, 2005 by Toby Cope

[Graham Davies]

Toby makes a good point. We shouldn't target Asians in general, of course, but human beings are irrational and (as I have pointed out before regarding the way the Irish were treated at the height of the troubles) they will move quickly from the particular to the general, blaming the whole community rather than one extremist sector of it.

I am a bit more optimistic now. The Indian family that runs our corner shop don't appear to be suffering abuse as a result of the present situation, nor does my Sikh friend with whom I enjoy a pint at our local pub. And the young Muslim woman in her headscarf at the check-out in Sainsburys where I buy my groceries still greets every customer with a big smile - which they always return.

As a footnote, I witnessed an extraordinary conservation between the Bangladeshi owner of our local take-way and a British-born Afro-Caribbean woman while I was waiting for my order to be completed. A news item on the TV came up, focusing on the new EU member states. The Bangladeshi immediately began talking about the influx of Polish workers into our area and how immigration needed to be controlled. "Some of them can't even speak English", he said, "and they are taking jobs away from local people." The Afro-Caribbean woman agreed with him. I just kept quiet...

[Guest Toby Cope]

It's not that every Asian you see is being abused, because it is obvious to anyone that that is not what is going on. The problem I see is that every coloured person in the United Kingdom is being blamed for the attacks, it is true what you say:

blaming the whole community rather than one extremist sector of it.

And it can hardly be called a sector because it is only a very very small fraction of the people that are extremists.

Edited to correct spelling error of extremists.

Edited July 28, 2005 by Toby Cope

[John Simkin]

I have been concerned for example in the way that people have reacted to the calls by the UK government to curtail our civil liberties since the London bombing. Tony Blair tells the public that we cannot allow the terrorists to change our way of life. Yet he immediately talks about bringing in legislation that will do just that. The majority accept these measures. Not only that, the popularity of Blair since the bombing has gone up. Instead of people thinking that the bombing only took place because of Blair’s policy on Iraq, they embrace his “tough talking” and reward him with high poll ratings.

[Christopher T. George]

I have been concerned for example in the way that people have reacted to the calls by the UK government to curtail our civil liberties since the London bombing. Tony Blair tells the public that we cannot allow the terrorists to change our way of life. Yet he immediately talks about bringing in legislation that will do just that. The majority accept these measures. Not only that, the popularity of Blair since the bombing has gone up. Instead of people thinking that the bombing only took place because of Blair’s policy on Iraq, they embrace his “tough talking” and reward him with high poll ratings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi John, Graham, Toby, et al.

Here in the United States, Blair is reaping praise particularly from the right wing for his "Churchillian" stance, and indeed it probably is likely that he would reap the benefits of talking and looking tough, just as George W. Bush did with the American populace after 9/11.

In regard to attitudes toward immigrants, the things that are being said about Muslim newcomers are much the same as those said in other periods about other newcomers, e.g., against the Jews fleeing the Russian pogroms of the late nineteenth century, they're not like us, they dress differently, they stick together. History repeats itself endlessly. I do think it is important to distinguish the minority radical Jihadist Muslims from the majority law-abiding Muslims. The Muslim immigrants are here to stay in Western democracies, and we must amicably live side by side with them.

All my best

Chris George

Edited July 29, 2005 by Christopher T. George

[Guest Toby Cope]

'All four' July 21 suspects held

SUSPECTED BOMBERS ARRESTED

1: Yasin Hassan Omar, 24, wanted over bomb attempt on Tube near Warren Street.

2: Muktar Said Ibrahim, 27, suspected of attempting to bomb a No 26 bus in Shoreditch

3: Third man, unnamed, wanted over failed attempt to bomb a Tube near Oval

4: Osman Hussain, arrested in Rome over Shepherd's Bush bomb attempt

Two London arrests are believed to be the men wanted for the 21 July Oval Tube and No 26 bus attacks. A third bomb suspect was already being held.

The fourth suspect, wanted for the attempted Shepherd's Bush Tube attack, has been arrested in Rome and named as Somali-born UK citizen Osman Hussain.

Police arrested three people in raids in Notting Hill and north Kensington.

Officers have also arrested two women at Liverpool Street station.

So, they've got all 4 of the 'suspects' they wanted and its all happened pretty quickly. Since the 1st suspect was arrested in Birmingham on Wednesday they've managed to catch the other 3, so I suspect (excuse the pun there!) it was something to do with intelligence he gave the Police.

But is this all going to turn into a case like the Great fire of London? Society wanting someone to blame, so someone gets blamed!

[John Simkin]

Am I the only one that thinks our Tony is doing a good job? I fully support his tough policies on terrorists and I don't feel in any way threatened by the new legislation that is proposed.

Would you think that if you had a son who looked non-European and had to travel around London with a bag?

Don't you think that Blair is acting in the exact same way as the terrorists want him to behave? Is he not making the same mistakes as George Bush after 9/11?

Did the "get tough" tactics with the IRA in the 1970s (internment, etc.) work or did it make the situation worse. Did Blair bring an end to IRA bombings by passing tougher laws against them? In fact, he did what he is now saying he will never do against the Muslim terrorists. Blair's popularity will soon go when people realize that his "tough talking" does not work. Do you really think these proposed measures will bring an end to terrorism? Why do we need new laws? Isn't it already against the law to incite murder?

[Adam Wilkinson]

Good point, there is really no way to stop terrorism, no matter what new laws are introduced, they will continue to kill. The only way violence against other people will cease, is the day that the last man on earth dies. It will never end. Racism is not the answer, it will incite others to rise against the west further. A way needs to be found to negotiate and tolerate, but with the people we have in power at the moment, this will be difficult.

[Graham Davies]

John writes:

Would you think that if you had a son who looked non-European and had to travel around London with a bag?

Yes.

John writes:

Don't you think that Blair is acting in the exact same way as the terrorists want him to behave? Is he not making the same mistakes as George Bush after 9/11?

No.

John writes:

Did the "get tough" tactics with the IRA in the 1970s (internment, etc.) work or did it make the situation worse.

It made it worse to begin with, and then it got better.

John writes:

Did Blair bring an end to IRA bombings by passing tougher laws against them?

There's no simple answer. I think the communities on both sides of the divide just got fed up with all the bloodshed. The Shankill Road bomb in 1993 was the turning point.

John writes:

Blair's popularity will soon go when people realize that his "tough talking" does not work. Do you really think these proposed measures will bring an end to terrorism?

Maybe it will work, maybe not. Who knows? Let's wait and see.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

But that is a highly racist review.

No, Toby, it was not a racist comment, it was a highly ironic take on how cetain groups in this country now view muslims. In 1977 I spent a month on the picket lines at Grunwick. The strike was to help Asian Women belong to a trade union. Please be very careful before you use the term Racist.

[Tim Gratz]

Andy wrote:

I overheard some bloke in my golf club this morning suggest we should bring back the death penalty for suicide bombers

Andy, this is truly a marvelous idea.

In America, in most states, suicide is against the law. To enforce this, I have advocated making attempted suicide a capital offense.

Such a law would mean that whoever attempts suicide must be darn serious about it. If he or she fails in the attempt, the state will finalize it, but only after a lengthy period spent in prison while the appeals continue.

Edited August 1, 2005 by Tim Gratz