Circumstance

[John Dolva]

A chance encounter?

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In this thread I'm trying to draw on known events with a minimum of elaborate assumptions to prop the thoughts up. But with a different interpretation of said events, I think that by separating Lee from the assassination and instead viewing him as a parallel event that intersected in Dallas with the conspirators, a lot of things makes more sense.

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Kennedy is already being targeted. If not Chicago, then Miami. If not Miami, then Dallas. If not Dallas, then... *

The plan in Dallas is for a hit in Dealey Plaza, just before the speech at the Trade Mart to the DCC mambers where Kennedy planned to talk tough on communism.

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Lee meanwhile has a life entirely separate from all this.

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If one combines Lees and Marinas testimonies and assume that they are largely correct.

Lee is an 'independent Marxist' with a loose CIA-FBI connection as a result of events rather than the events being a product of such an involvement.

He went to the USSR while back in the USA events with regards to Cuba were unfolding. He finds the USSR boring and restrictive. However, he manages to inspire a young soviet woman to go back home with him.

Lee probably sees himself as a bit of an adventurer. His adolescent hero is probably something like that of the media portrayal of Morgan.

In the New Orleans Radio interviews he incurred the wrath of parties interested in restoring Cuba to pre-Castro dictatorship purely for economic reasons. This coincides with anti-Kennedy sentiments.

Lee wants to go adventuring in Cuba. He needs to establish credibility within the Castro crowd. He takes a pot shot at Walker, He makes speeches, attempts to join organisations, he poses for some limited circulation publicity shots. (here the question is not one of fakery but of who in 'the loop' saw them).

Meanwhile, of course he has a family to support and a life to live.

In preparation for a time in Cuba, he distances himself from Marina and the girls so that he can see them being taken care of without him being around. Thinking all was proceeding according to plan, getting a job at the TSBD was just a job.

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Here the two threads start to intersect.

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Lee is already known and marked by the anti Castro crowd. The plan is adjusted for Lee to be the patsy. Two birds with one stone. He gets an inkling of what is on the move when in the lunch room. He knows he didn't do it and is relying on witnesses to back him on that. However, he has his own plans for the future and don't want them tainted by this new development. So he walks away. He is followed. He suspects this may be the case. His movements are those of someone seeking to shake a tail.

To ensure an officially sanctioned killing of Lee, he is followed, and Tippit is shot, the shooter/s figuring that a cop killer gets shot at first; asked questions later. However, they underestimate Lee. He momentarily retreats to the theater where he considers how to deal with this startling turn of events. They 'hate' him and what people like him are. So they are blind to the fact that he is a loose cannon with a subtle streetsmart. He is not surprised when the police turn up. He probably figures that the safest place is in custody. It gives him a chance to speak. His prime concern is to set up the platform re representation. He seeks out previously unused avenues to the intelligence community.

However, again, as with so many things in his life he is out of his depth. He is marked for elimination no matter what. But, before he is silenced he has managed to seed doubt with regards to his involvement. He was not to be intimidated. He didn't go on the defensive and make a fool of himself. He took it in his stride and went on the attack.

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He was silenced. Now the task of covering up could no longer rely on pre-assassination plans. It becomes an intially desperate tying up of loose ends. Further murders and intimidations. Seeding of mis-information et.c. which leaves us where we are today.

The agencies realise during the investigation that they could look bad, so to protect future ops their involvement in a coverup overlaps with the conspirators. Possibly the conspirators are counting on this to further muddy the waters.

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Conspirators: Walker & co?

Lees pro-Castro persona marks him. The pot shot at Walker seals his fate. His self reliance and lack of a proper big picture perspective makes him vulnerable to manipulation. He was already engaged on a path outside society that necessarily predisposed him towards deceit. The conspirators merely adopted and used him in their own much more organised and 'powerful' purposes.

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Lee : the Accidental Patsy.

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I like this way of looking at things. It simplifies the picture and doesn't rely on intricate scenarios which are so dependent on everything fitting together.

*(Are there any death threats against Kennedy for the time following Dallas?. What was the very last death threat against Kennedy? Where was Kennedy supposed to go next? If there was official involvement could a sketchy future itinerary indicate this? Was the plans for the coming 2 months as detailed as the plans two months before the assassination?)

EDIT:: # What I am getting at here is : If one was to study the formulation of Kennedy's itinerary over several months right up to 12.45 on the 22 november 1963 is it possible to see a pattern. One would expect that right up to the moment of his death being known that everything was preceding as normal, as if the 23rd would deal with a President alive, and so on. Therefore to look for is anything unusual in the diaries, itineraries, plans of anyone involved that reveals an expectation that Kennedy would not be around. This would apply re plans etc of anyone outside of the Government, even something as ridiculous as a cancelled subscription, a postponed purchase, a cancelled milk delivery, an altered meeting agenda. A delayed newspaper advertisement. Did anything 'pause', as if in anticipation?

Edited September 22, 2005 by John Dolva

[Jim Root]

John

While I do not agree with your thread as stated the question that you pose at the end is very interesting.

"Therefore (what) to look for is anything unusual in the diaries, itineraries, plans of anyone involved that reveals an expectation that Kennedy would not be around. This would apply re plans etc of anyone outside of the Government, even something as ridiculous as a cancelled subscription, a postponed purchase, a cancelled milk delivery, an altered meeting agenda. A delayed newspaper advertisement. Did anything 'pause', as if in anticipation?"

YES!

John J. McCloy missed an early Warren Commission Meeting because he had to attend the Nuclear Disarmament talks in Geneva. It was at this meeting, I believe, that a Soviet KGB man assigned to the Soviet deligation defected to the US. The defectors name was Yuri Nosenko and he just happened to have a wealth of information about Oswald. Nosenko, of course, had made his first contact with the CIA the same week that Oswald departed for the USA.

One could speculate that McCloy was fully aware of Nosenko and his "mission" and had a pre determined need to miss the Warren Commission Meeting.

What type of conspiracy would this suggest?

Jim Root

[John Dolva]

John

While I do not agree with your thread as stated the question that you pose at the end is very interesting.

"Therefore (what) to look for is anything unusual in the diaries, itineraries, plans of anyone involved that reveals an expectation that Kennedy would not be around. This would apply re plans etc of anyone outside of the Government, even something as ridiculous as a cancelled subscription, a postponed purchase, a cancelled milk delivery, an altered meeting agenda. A delayed newspaper advertisement. Did anything 'pause', as if in anticipation?"

YES!

John J. McCloy missed an early Warren Commission Meeting because he had to attend the Nuclear Disarmament talks in Geneva.  It was at this meeting, I believe, that a Soviet KGB man assigned to the Soviet deligation defected to the US.  The defectors name was Yuri Nosenko and he just happened to have a wealth of information about Oswald.  Nosenko, of course, had made his first contact with the CIA the same week that Oswald departed for the USA.

One could speculate that McCloy was fully aware of Nosenko and his "mission" and had a pre determined need to miss the Warren Commission Meeting.

What type of conspiracy would this suggest?

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jim, possibly again a multilayered opportunistic one.

Lee, as stated in my suggested scenario.

The KGB choosing to use Lees departure as an opportunity to seed a double agent. Many of these schemes were happening and perhaps 11/22 events provided an opportunity to bring this particular one to fruition. Prior to the assassination perhaps an intent was to use a future Oswald move into the Cuba theatre as a reason to come running with arms full of Oswald info? One thing I have difficulties with, as anyone who might have read the stuff I've discussed on Oswald might know, is just how much of a loose cannon he was, particularly now with a family. Very unpredictable person to try to build an important intelligence operation around. He certainly didn;t heve round the clock body guards? Much more likely, in my mind, to see events around him as agencies/interests opportunistically, after the fact, using him.

Some questions with regards to McCloy that need answering are:

When was McCloys travel to Geneva decided and when was it announced?

Was it reasonable for McCloy to expect to have access to Nosenko?

Where was Angleton?

My reading of the Orchid analogy is that it came about as a result of Epstein trying to find out what Nosenko knew. Angleton in response pointedly separated Oswald and Nosenko. If one assumes that the two are connected then it can be read one way. If one assumes not, it can be read differently.

Possibly this could put Angleton (and the CIA?) out of the loop.

Anyway, it seems there are many ways to read these events. I'd be very interested to see how you read them Jim.

(as an aside, offhand , Jim would you know what McNamara was doing while McCloy was in Geneva?)