The Southern Half of Dealey Plaza

[John Dolva]

"

" ... Is this where the steps are (were?) ...".

You are very close. the forked tree shadow needs to be moved closer to the steps (east about two inches. as pictured in photo) to establish proper distance and perspective from steps. ( we were standing approx 3 perhaps 5 feet west of steps) The distance from the steps to the tree shadow is not right. (keep in mind this is a hill and the steps lead down to the sidewalk.., thus 'sidewalk steps" or "steps down to the sidewalk near curb". Also note on your left clearer photo the steps appear to curve while in facts they are stright and have about two flat landings before you get down to the side walk. I do not know if this was changed (the cruve) or if its just photography. However you can see that there is not a curve in the overhead picture of 1963 previously posted on this thread. "

steps red

lampost green

sign blue

possible figure checked for scale by car aquamarine and black border

tree and tree shadow yellow

??

Edited June 20, 2006 by John Dolva

[Jack White]

Tosh stated, mostly inaccurately:

At that time we (they) did not have a good photo negative or print nor a good copy of the photo to work with. Peter, with hard work and in time, got the best picture available and sent them to Wilson.---(and I think also to Jack) I was under the impression, at that time, that Jack White was also going to work on the photo, but was told later he did not have the time and he did not think anything was there. I talked to Jack about this some years later and was told it could not be prove. From his manner and attitude, I felt he did not want to be involved in the photo work because he did not believe I was being truthful with my story.

[John Dolva]

presumably the activities in this photo will enable dating it?

there appears to be no rail here at this resolution. Is a better copy available?

____

possibly an experiment worth making is driving a similar car pref blue with shiny chrome and clean windows slowly past at same time and filming from same as cancellare in order to see if the chrome strips, triangular rear window or other reflective car surface will reflect the sun on to the knoll that looks like a line like the rail?

[William Plumlee]

presumably the activities in this photo will enable dating it?

there appears to be no rail here at this resolution. Is a better copy available?

____

possibly an experiment worth making is driving a similar car pref blue with shiny chrome and clean windows slowly past at same time and filming from same as cancellare in order to see if the chrome strips, triangular rear window or other reflective car surface will reflect the sun on to the knoll that looks like a line like the rail?

I agree. As I said I do not think a railing was there. I can't remember one.

[William Plumlee]

Tosh stated, mostly inaccurately:

At that time we (they) did not have a good photo negative or print nor a good copy of the photo to work with. Peter, with hard work and in time, got the best picture available and sent them to Wilson.---(and I think also to Jack) I was under the impression, at that time, that Jack White was also going to work on the photo, but was told later he did not have the time and he did not think anything was there. I talked to Jack about this some years later and was told it could not be prove. From his manner and attitude, I felt he did not want to be involved in the photo work because he did not believe I was being truthful with my story.

Did not mean to offend you. The above was from my POV and what I was told. That is what I was told by others when I ask them (after a long delay of nothing being said about the photo) if you were working on it. I was also told you at first thought someone was standing there. When I called you some years later and asked you what you thought about two people beimg there I was left with the impression you did not believe anyone was there.., it could not be proven, and you did not believe I was being truthful. I never bothered you again. Nor do I intend to bother you now.

"... its time to put it to rest and move on with life. As they say: 'Frankly, my dear I don't give a damn'. ...".

Edited June 20, 2006 by William Plumlee

[John Dolva]

??

[William Plumlee]

"... Notice the wing outs on the banisters of the underpass on the east side. (north and south) They are not on the west side at each end/ If a shoter was at that location southeast end of underpass, then he would not be seen by anyone north of this location (toward the north knoll northeast part of underpass) if anyone was on the underpass. This person could have came from the south parking lot, shot from behind the winged section of the underpass and been gone by the time Sergio and I got to that location.... just food for thought. Again I speculate. ...". (Blue/black line= Plumlee and Sergio; red line= aledged shooter)

??

Edited June 21, 2006 by William Plumlee

[John Dolva]

To be successful and to escape, you'd need a diversion of some kind.Something noisy and smoky perhaps, to get everyone looking the other way?

[William Plumlee]

??

John: note height of triple underpass 14'6'' plus addition 6 feet to rail road bed and tracts. The down grade into the underpass is approx 4 feet from fatal shot. the shooter would be approx ten feet plus above the limo... easy shot from that distance over the windshild into the back seat (which is approx 4 feet from front dashboard left of driver (between both men from shooters point of view)

Is that someone on the underpass rail road tracts? If so he would be east of the west banister (10 feet or so) on the rail road tracts. I speculate.... shooter or abort members? I do not think Sergio and I could have been at that location because of the limo's position. Where the limo is in your picture I would think is about the time Cancellara was taking the picture of the south knowl.

To be successful and to escape, you'd need a diversion of some kind.Something noisy and smoky perhaps, to get everyone looking the other way?

The Presidents head had just been about blown off. That in itself was a diversion, riveting attention from all spectators, focused at that spot. Also everyone was focused on the motorcade before the shots. And after the shots and the echos everyone was just stunded, numb, and confused, including Sergio and I. If I remember right there was other diversions... towed cars, and other distractions east of the kill zone, before the motorcade arrived at Houston and Elm.

[John Dolva]

The person (if that is what it is), would have to be along the yellow line. You and Sergio for some reason choose to cross diagonally, why not the shooter/spotter? The scale and slope of the top of the underpass in relation to the photographer of the mcintyre photo indicates the person is on the western side of the underpass, unless the top of the rails, or a signal box perhaps, raises a person who steps on it higher up.

EDIT:: I wonder what the profile of the rail crossing was like. Some I've experienced have stone bases that have steepish sides that are easier to cross at a diagonal and to drift off target.

Edited June 21, 2006 by John Dolva

[Robin Unger]

John.

This is a crop from a large Scan i did from Trask's POTP.

If you want the full image send me your email address and i will email it to you, it's a large image about 3.5MB

Edited June 21, 2006 by Robin Unger

[William Plumlee]

John: I remember the reason we did not go streight across the tracks was because of the switching rails. (where the tracks come together they make V shapes and are hard to walk over and they are wider). We went between these and tried to cross at the least difficult places, the narrow single tracks. The rail road bed were raised about tthree feet with stone but not each track.., on each side of all tracks... the whole area if I remember right. I have always felt the south knoll shooter came from the parking lot to the winged area and then after the shot went back into the parking lot and escaped. As Sergio and I approached this position we would of not seen him because of the underpass and the hill, and to we were looking toward the kill zone as we walked toward the underpass.

Also following is acopy of an email I sent to another researcher/investigator:

"... Some years later, after we had parted company, I went to the plaza and set off a large firecracker at the south end of the underpass and watched people's reaction. Everyone first looked toward the north knoll, then started to look around..., some up.., some toward Houston St.., some toward the old Dal-Tex..., The firecracker made a strange echo that bounced off the buildings. I was told by an Oliver Stone "Sound Man" that because of the three underpass streets that this would be normal for sound to echo from the tube like tunneled streets. And the sound would be heard coming from different directions depending on where you were standing. I do not know if this is true. I am not a sound man, but I did hear the echo's. Also It sounded like more than one firecracker from my position. ...".

Edited June 21, 2006 by William Plumlee

[John Dolva]

William, perhaps you could look at the forum from time to time and when needed, directly or indirectly, make a comment. Your frustration is understandable. I think the speculative bickering will take care of itself over time, there's no need to stress or involve on that. Instead, if someone asks a simple question for clarification that you feel you can answer to the benefit of the discussion, do so? Otherwise, sit back and enjoy.

_________________________

Bell and Hughes:

Bell could if a better copy is available tell something af what was going on in the southern corner (which BTW a number of people appear to be looking towards at a time when the Limousine has just gone through the underpass).

Hughes, if a good copy with all colors was available, could tell a lot about windows and other things in the south.

Edited June 22, 2006 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

I know what you mean Peter.

The Bell image is a composite of a number of frames piled on top of each other as transparencies, largely to show the area of the south knoll it covers.

In putting it together I noted that a number of the people look towards the south knoll. The rest are trying to get a glimpse of the disappearing limo. There's a group of three, one of whom is just visible at the right edge of the composite. Two men at the lower right corner. A woman at the centre. She's moving a lot, so she and others who move get a bit washed out in the composing. Those who stay still stand out sharper. See the car moving and those standing still.

Harry Holmes reports that one of the very first reports (within minutes) was shots fired from the post office. This was dealt with internally, and only his interview towards the end of his life and a rather obscure set of reports in the archives mention this. The withnesses were inmates of the jail, and of course noone knows who they are. The cancellare itself shows a numgber of people looking in that direction. I think a general drive for a North Knoll shooter, quite simply blinds people (intentionally and otherwise) to noticing these things. So, I wouldn't be surprised if over time, others will emrge.

[John Dolva]

Wiegman::

A handful of frames, not all immediately sequential, but close, interspersed with healvily blurred ones, are of some value. one in particular shows a difference at the pillar in question. Could this be the figure that the McIntyre photo shows?