Dark clouds over Camelot.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

I first posted some of this on Lancer. With thanks to Tim, and Daniel Wayne Dunne.

"The Military are mad" JFK to an aid.

CURTIS LEMAY.. It was LeMay who constantly pushed the supposed missile gap, he insisted that large numbers of Soviet ICBMs could be located in unseen areas, not overflown by the U2. This therefore he argued required a massive upgrading by the military in responce. During the 1960 election JFK echoed these charges, and during his presidency oversaw an escalation of Missiles, but was always far more cautious than the JCS wanted. Kennedy and McNamara knew these charges were baseless, and during the summer of 1960 had been briefed by Dulles in regard to the true situation. Kennedy's public position remained one of reduction's though tough negotiation with the Soviets.

VIOLENTLY DISAGREEING WITH JFKs CRISIS TEAM, OCT 19TH 1962.

:quote on:" This blockade, and political action I see leading into war. This is almost as bad as the appeasment at Munich. I just dont see any other solution than direct military action now." :Quote off:

After the meeting General Shoup and Leay stayed behind, not realising he was being taped Shoup said to LeMay.. You pulled the rug right out from under him, somebody's got to stop them from doing the Goddam thing peicemeal, thats our problem, do the son-of-a bitch, and do it right."

LeMay was essentially forced into retirement in Feb 1965, He was later selected as the Vice Presidential candidate on Geo Wallace's Ind party ticket, where he continued his sabre rattling about first strike use of ICBMs. LeMay was a cold war lunatic, in aplan drawn up in late 1949 he proposed dropping the entire US stockpile of 133 Atomic bombs on 70 Eastern Block cities within 30days. Under his leadership the SAC was on constant red alert, during the Cuban missile crisis he recomended that JFK send the Navy, and SAC to Cuba and if need be "Fry it", when the crisis ended peacefully LeMay called it, "The greatest defeat in our history."

LYMAN L LEMNITZER...In April 1961 General E Walker was fired from his post by President Kennedy. He was accused of encouraging far right wing elements(facist in all but name) within his command, and distributing JBS/KKK propoganda to troups under his command. He was at this time a self confessed member of both these racist organizations. Senators investigating the matter suspected that Chief of Staff Lemnitzer was also involved in helping to spread Walkers extremist views.

Lemnitzer was a secret operations expert, who had been heavily involved with the Allies "Stay behind" networkIts job was to recruit ex Nazi agents to help fight against the Soviets. It basically helped known war criminals escape justice by arranging flights to, and bolt holes in Latin America, later to enter the US by the back door. Recently published corespondance by Lemnitzer showed that he and other high ranking officers were conspiring against Kennedy's policies, in particular his refusal to in volve the US army in Cuba following the BOP fiasco, they thought Kennedy a coward for refusing air strike support for the anti Castro Cubans. It was as a direct consequence of this thinking that Operation Northwoods was concieved, this mad plan(part of the wider operation Mongoose) was of course rejected root and branch by McNamara, which, to put it mildly displeased Lemnitzer, and the plans main architect General William H Craig(blackest of black ops men) This provoked a six month stand off between the Administration, and the JCS, after which Lemnitzer was dispatched, with all due haste to Europe as head of American forces. Before leaving he ordered all copies of Northwoods destroyed, but unknown to him Mcnamarahad kept his copy of the secret report, which only surfaced decades later.

From "President Kennedy" by Richard Reeves, on the annual presentation of SIOP plans.

" Lemnitzer did the briefing himself, setting up easles with flip charts of target and deployment maps..after a Presidential on standby authorisation was given, Lemnitzer said:The JCS will designate E hour, and the appropriate execution order:..Ending his presentation Lemnitzer demonstrated the rigidity Kennedy most hated about the Military, It must, Lemnitzer said :Clearly be understood that any decision to execute only a portion of the entire plan, would involve acceptance of certain grave risk's...Kennedy was gripping the arms of his chair so tightly that his knuckles showed white. As he walked out of the room with Dean rusk he said "And we call ourselves the Human race."

John F Kennedy opposed Generals Walker, LeMay and Lemnitzer and their powerful business cheerleaders, and refused to involve America in a covert war against Communism in Cuba, Laos and Vietnam.

President Gerald Ford asked Lemnitzer to serve on two committee's after his retirement, one, the Committee on the present danger was created by then CIA Director George Bush (Sen) Ford also promoted Craig to Major General.....

[Guest Stephen Turner]

."

...In April 1961 General E Walker was fired from his post by President Kennedy. He was accused of encouraging far right wing elements(facist in all but name) within his command, and distributing JBS/KKK propoganda to troups under his command. He was at this time a self confessed member of both these racist organizations. Senators investigating the matter suspected that Chief of Staff Lemnitzer was also involved in helping to spread Walkers extremist views.

Just how close was Gen Edwin Walker to the far right wing, anti Communist, heavily armed Minutemen?

FBI File HQ 62-107261, is a summary of an interview with ATF Agent Frank Elsworth, it states.."An organisation known as the Minutemen is the right wing group in Dallas most likely to be associated with any effort to assassinate the President. They are closely tied to General walker, and HL Hunt.

This file was withheld from the W/C, despite a request from J Lee Rankin. I would like to know whether any active member of the Minutemen ever served under Walker.

[John Dolva]

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...|3|1|1|1|11834|

enter minute men in folder search, this doc may help in some way

[Guest Stephen Turner]

For those interested in all things LeMay, Lemnitzer JCS. an old thread of mine.

[Tim Gratz]

Stephen, I thought you a better student of history than this:

John F Kennedy opposed Generals Walker, LeMay and Lemnitzer and their powerful business cheerleaders, and refused to involve America in a covert war against Communism in Cuba, Laos and Vietnam.

Maybe you mistake the word "covert" for "overt". JFK and RFK initiated a covert (secret) war against Cuba called Operation Mongoose. The acts committed in Mongoose were clearly acts of war, a war not congressionally authorized. Richard Nixon would have been impeached had he done such a thing, and you know it.

Read the transcript of the Kennedy tapes re the CMC. JFK knew that a blockade was an act of war, just as an invasion was. That is why he called it a "quarantine". Well at least JFK informed Congress of THAT act of War. What he did NOT tell them was that the missiles were installed in Cuba most likely so the Soviets could stop the JFK "secret war" against Cuba. So while, as I have said, the CMC was JFK's finest thirteen days, and his judgment proved superior to that of the JCS, there is at least some merit in the argument of some historians who say that without Mongoose there may have been no CMC.

Historians may debate whether JFK was going to pull out of Vietnam, but it was under JFK that the military advisers INCREASED in Vietnam and it was that awful coup that started us down the road to tragedy in Vietnam.

Edited August 17, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Myra Bronstein]

For those interested in all things LeMay, Lemnitzer JCS. an old thread of mine.

Where is the old thread?