Secret Service Behavior

[Peter McGuire]

I have a hard time buying the idea that Kellerman and Greer were accomplices. Given the amount of bullets flying in to the car from all directions, it was a fluke that neither were hit.

I'd have to agree here....they would have to have unusually strong nerves and almost unlimited trust in the ability of the snipers if they were 'in on it'. While I don't rule out that some SS men might have been in cahoots, I doubt the two in the car with JFK would have been or could have been. They would have worn hardhats and bulletproof vests....and been drinking while driving. Their statements on their accounts of the number and timing of bullets adds a bit to my feeling on this also. If they were told there would be a 'hit' the only way would have been to tell them it was to be at a completely different location when they were not to be so close....as some speculate about JC.

WHOA!

The slow turn, the braking, the failure to even coast at the cruising speed of a limo downhill,

the failure to secure overpasses, windows, fences, the RYBKA stand down, the POTUS in the lead car,

the braking and stopping/near stopping in the fire zone, the slow cruise after the initial throat shot to

Kennedy, the failure to etc...........

Shanet:

This is what I am getting at. There is too much denial regarding the Agent's behavior. You have outlined just a fraction of the Secret Service's unusual behavior which is written off as "mistakes" or excuses using a theory about "human behavior".

At the very least these folks should have been fired for their incompetence. Their stories made no sense and some were even promoted in later years. (bad things happened to a few)

Vince Palamara goes into this in great detail but I will address a few of Shanet's points.

1) The slow turn. Car should not go below 44 miles per hour, if so , protection needs to be "poored on"

( Prouty)

2) Greer's BRAKING , not even coasting. An automatic vehicle , like the limo, would coast downhill 20 miles an hour or more depending upon the idling speed. Whatever, it wouldn't be zero miles an hour. ( if you want to split hairs and come up with another figure! )

3) The lack of protection in the killing zone. Basic security was not present that afternoon. It was called off to enable the shooters to do their job. Protecting the President is what the Secret Service does. To suggest they did not realize something was up is ridiculous. Greer had 6 or 7 seconds to get out of there. He did not. Instead , he braked the car. Take a look at Reagan's assassination attempt. That is protection. That is what happens when shots are fired. NO ONE MOVED when the shots rang out in Dallas.

[John Kennedy White]

I have a hard time buying the idea that Kellerman and Greer were accomplices. Given the amount of bullets flying in to the car from all directions, it was a fluke that neither were hit.

I'd have to agree here....they would have to have unusually strong nerves and almost unlimited trust in the ability of the snipers if they were 'in on it'. While I don't rule out that some SS men might have been in cahoots, I doubt the two in the car with JFK would have been or could have been. They would have worn hardhats and bulletproof vests....and been drinking while driving. Their statements on their accounts of the number and timing of bullets adds a bit to my feeling on this also. If they were told there would be a 'hit' the only way would have been to tell them it was to be at a completely different location when they were not to be so close....as some speculate about JC.

WHOA!

The slow turn, the braking, the failure to even coast at the cruising speed of a limo downhill,

the failure to secure overpasses, windows, fences, the RYBKA stand down, the POTUS in the lead car,

the braking and stopping/near stopping in the fire zone, the slow cruise after the initial throat shot to

Kennedy, the failure to etc...........

Shanet:

This is what I am getting at. There is too much denial regarding the Agent's behavior. You have outlined just a fraction of the Secret Service's unusual behavior which is written off as "mistakes" or excuses using a theory about "human behavior".

At the very least these folks should have been fired for their incompetence. Their stories made no sense and some were even promoted in later years. (bad things happened to a few)

Vince Palamara goes into this in great detail but I will address a few of Shanet's points.

1) The slow turn. Car should not go below 44 miles per hour, if so , protection needs to be "poored on"

( Prouty)

2) Greer's BRAKING , not even coasting. An automatic vehicle , like the limo, would coast downhill 20 miles an hour or more depending upon the idling speed. Whatever, it wouldn't be zero miles an hour. ( if you want to split hairs and come up with another figure! )

3) The lack of protection in the killing zone. Basic security was not present that afternoon. It was called off to enable the shooters to do their job. Protecting the President is what the Secret Service does. To suggest they did not realize something was up is ridiculous. Greer had 6 or 7 seconds to get out of there. He did not. Instead , he braked the car. Take a look at Reagan's assassination attempt. That is protection. That is what happens when shots are fired. NO ONE MOVED when the shots rang out in Dallas.

I agree that there was mass incompetence exhibited by the SS, but there is a difference between that and active conspiracy.

Were the SS commanders in on the conspiracy? Maybe... but I think the footsoldiers were unwitting dupes...

[Paul Rigby]

I have a hard time buying the idea that Kellerman and Greer were accomplices. Given the amount of bullets flying in to the car from all directions, it was a fluke that neither were hit.

I'd have to agree here....they would have to have unusually strong nerves and almost unlimited trust in the ability of the snipers if they were 'in on it'. While I don't rule out that some SS men might have been in cahoots, I doubt the two in the car with JFK would have been or could have been. They would have worn hardhats and bulletproof vests....and been drinking while driving. Their statements on their accounts of the number and timing of bullets adds a bit to my feeling on this also. If they were told there would be a 'hit' the only way would have been to tell them it was to be at a completely different location when they were not to be so close....as some speculate about JC.

WHOA!

The slow turn, the braking, the failure to even coast at the cruising speed of a limo downhill,

the failure to secure overpasses, windows, fences, the RYBKA stand down, the POTUS in the lead car,

the braking and stopping/near stopping in the fire zone, the slow cruise after the initial throat shot to

Kennedy, the failure to etc...........

Shanet:

This is what I am getting at. There is too much denial regarding the Agent's behavior. You have outlined just a fraction of the Secret Service's unusual behavior which is written off as "mistakes" or excuses using a theory about "human behavior".

At the very least these folks should have been fired for their incompetence. Their stories made no sense and some were even promoted in later years. (bad things happened to a few)

Vince Palamara goes into this in great detail but I will address a few of Shanet's points.

1) The slow turn. Car should not go below 44 miles per hour, if so , protection needs to be "poored on"

( Prouty)

2) Greer's BRAKING , not even coasting. An automatic vehicle , like the limo, would coast downhill 20 miles an hour or more depending upon the idling speed. Whatever, it wouldn't be zero miles an hour. ( if you want to split hairs and come up with another figure! )

3) The lack of protection in the killing zone. Basic security was not present that afternoon. It was called off to enable the shooters to do their job. Protecting the President is what the Secret Service does. To suggest they did not realize something was up is ridiculous. Greer had 6 or 7 seconds to get out of there. He did not. Instead , he braked the car. Take a look at Reagan's assassination attempt. That is protection. That is what happens when shots are fired. NO ONE MOVED when the shots rang out in Dallas.

I agree that there was mass incompetence exhibited by the SS, but there is a difference between that and active conspiracy.

Were the SS commanders in on the conspiracy? Maybe... but I think the footsoldiers were unwitting dupes...

De Gaulle's driver, Francis Marroux, was loyal, with the consequence his boss survived ambush.

That wasn't going to happen on Elm.

Paul

[Michael Hogan]

I agree that there was mass incompetence exhibited by the SS, but there is a difference between that and active conspiracy.

Were the SS commanders in on the conspiracy? Maybe... but I think the footsoldiers were unwitting dupes...

From Vince Palamara's The Third Alternative: The Secret Service and the JFK Murder:

Greer was a "patsy." He certainly was no angel, as we look at his role in this whole affair, but he was, in the final analysis, a single man--a Secret Service chauffeur--subservient to orders and willing to obey; whether these were

official

orders from an

official

chain of command is another matter entirely. Obviously, Greer was not the one pulling the strings on that fateful day in Dallas--events, official and otherwise, were planned and implemented, orders were selectively followed and obeyed by all the agents involved, and ultimately, the agency to which the driver was employed only carried so much power and authority on its own.

Nevertheless, Greer's retirement was fast approaching, and he had the perfect background to be the target of a set-up. In short, by his witting--or unwitting--participation in a covert plan, such as the one that involved a security-stripping test on JFK that happened to backfire in the worst way, Greer had little to lose, unlike some of the other, younger agents in Dallas. However, that does not mean that he later did not regret what had happened.

and:

While telling the FBI on the night of the murder that JFK said "Get me to a hospital" upon being shot, the agent later told the Warren Commission that JFK said "My God, I've been hit." (Sibert & O'Neil Report, 11/22/1963, 2H 73) In any event, this was impossible--JFK could not have spoken a word after having been shot thru the throat! In addition, Kellerman told the FBI that, during the shooting, "he observed President Kennedy with his left hand in back of him appearing to be reaching to a point on his right shoulder," an action not shown on any films or photographs, nor described by any witnesses to the shooting. (same as above) There can only be two reasons for this strange testimony.

A. Kellerman wanted to give an overt reason for having gone to Parkland Hospital unassisted--a "Presidential directive" and

B. The agent was attempting to show that JFK was only wounded, thus his "reason" for not coming to the President's aid by vaulting into the back of the limousine, a matter the agent was harshly criticized for by the media and the public. (Detroit Free Press 12/27/1963, interview with June Kellerman, 3/2/92)

Conclusion: Kellerman was a "patsy" in his role as the assistant supervisory agent on 11/22/63.

Whether Palamara is correct or not, I have no idea.

Edited August 29, 2006 by Michael Hogan

[Jack White]

WHOA!

The slow turn, the braking, the failure to even coast at the cruising speed of a limo downhill,

the failure to secure overpasses, windows, fences, the RYBKA stand down, the POTUS in the lead car,

the braking and stopping/near stopping in the fire zone, the slow cruise after the initial throat shot to

Kennedy, the failure to etc...........

I fully agree. The SS was acting in every way, as a group, in cahoots with the assassins - from the route, to the open-top, to the driving. Personally, I just find it hard to believe that one could convince a driver to be in a car that was about to sustain a hail of 6+ bullets. Perhaps he was 'set-up' and told for some reason to go especially slow - or there would be a drill and to react this way or that - a reason not described as what we know was about to happen. Kellerman's inaction is the most damning IMO as he did nothing [i'm being kind] to earn his pay that day. Again, I find it hard to believe the conspiritors could find an incentive to get someone to sit in the front of the car when it was to be shot at...and again, if he was told something (or given something to reduce his reaction-time) it was likely not the truth. Even if he were in on the assassination his inaction after the shooting defies comprehension.....but then so many things do that day. I'm not saying the SS was not involved...I think some of them likely were.....in part. I think a lot of people were set-up that day and immediately realized that going along was their only hope of surviving themselves.

Some have speculated that to get unwitting aid from the SS

a story was given them what to do in case a "demonstration"

occurred involving firecrackers or firing of blank ammo.

But given the drinking in the wee morning hours, I think

that at least some of them were witting.

Jack