Where is that train in the window?

[Jack White]

If Bond could see the train through the windows,

why couldn't Willis?

Jack

[Steve Thomas]

Peter,

Jack, or anyone, the 'hobos' found in the train car - where exactly was it located when stationary and when stopped? Was there ever a report on locations of all train cars and movement that day near DP?

A railroad train carrying three "tramps" began to leave the freight train area west and north of the TSBD at around one o'clock, thirty minutes after the shots. The train was under the tower control of Lee Bowers and was stopped by him. The tramps were arrested.

I don't want to hijack Jack's thread, but here is something I posted back in January:

Some researchers believe that two sets of tramps were arrested based on the timing and location of the arrests. One set was taken off a boxcar in the yards behind the TSBD shortly after the assassination. The three tramps we are familiar with were arrested in a gondola type car 400 - 500 yeards south south of Dealey Plaza.

I believe that the same set of tramps were arrested twice - once by the Dallas County Sheriff's Department, and the second time by the Dallas City Police Department.

From Denis Morissette's site:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat.../Documents.html

William Earl Chambers was interviewed on 3/3/92 by SA Gary Gerszewski of the FBI and Lieutenant Kenneth Lybrand, City of Dallas Police Department.

William Chambers worked for the City of Dallas Police Department from October, 1954 until January, 1992. In approximately 1959, or 1969, he as assigned as a Detective in the Forgery Division

He was assigned to the Trade Mart and went back to City Hall after it was announced that JFK had died.

When Chambers and the other officers arrived back at the forgery division, “Captain Jones assigned Chambers to watch three hobos who were already at the station when Chambers arrived”.

Chambers questioned them together and found their answers confusing and inconsistent.

“their stories as to where they came from and where they were headed differed from individual to individual.

“When questioned regarding the circumstances of their arrest, the three individuals indicated that they were on a freight car sleeping when they were wakened by officers with different colored uniforms than the ones worn by the officers who drove them down to the station.

Question: Sleeping? what time was this? They got out of the Salvation Army and on the way to the freight yards heard that the President had been shot. It couldn’t have been more than an hour lapsed maybe. Different colored uniforms? Driven down to the station?

“They were briefly questioned by those officers who then told them that they better leave town. The three then boarded another boxcar and were shortly thereafter arrested by the City of Dallas Police Department”.

“Chambers believes that the Officers who first interviewed the hobos were members of the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department, who at that time had uniforms of a different color than that of the City of Dallas Police Department. The hobos were then brought down to the station.

During the course of the interview, Grinell came into Captain Jones office for a minute and discussed the possibility of conducting a “gunpowder” test on the hands of the hobos.

Later, Captain Jones came into the office and advised Chambers that they had arrested the individual who had shot Officer Tippit and that he was the one who had also shot the President. Chambers then advised the three individuals, “You’re free to go”. The three then left the office. Chambers never saw them again.

Question: What were they still doing in jail four days later?

Lee Bowers in his testimony before the Warren Commission, vol VI, p. 288:

Between 50 and a hundred policemen came up the slope within 5 minutes. “That’s right. Sealed off the area and I held off the trains until they could be examined, and there were some transients taken on at least one train.”

Contrast this with a passage in the Dallas Police Tapes at 1:57 PM:

1:57 Dallas Police Tapes

1579. 61: 61.

1580. DIS: 61.

1581. 61: We have information from the agent out here at the T&P.

Said that the train is stopped on the overpass, the

Triple Overpass; that there was a person jump in the

ninth box car from the front engine. Said he's hiding in

the car.

1582. DIS: Is the train stopped there now?

1583. 61: I'm in behind the Texas Shool Depository. He has the

train stopped. (voices) He said it is the ninth car from

the engine, a gondola-type car; said he is hankered down

inside.

Steve Thomas

[Jack White]

The story of the tramps is a bit off topic

regarding whether Willis 5 was retouched.

Everyone seems reluctant to address the topic

of Willis retouching.

Jack

Edited August 22, 2006 by Jack White

[Jack White]

The story of the tramps is a bit off topic

regarding whether Willis 5 was retouched.

Everyone seems reluctant to address the topic

of Willis retouching.

Jack

The reason I asked the question was that unless the car seen was moved just after the shooting or the angle is such [though it doesn't seem to be] that it would be hidden then there is something 'rotten in Dallas' to paraphrase a bard......

I wasn't complaining, Peter. But I would like some discussion

on the Willis photo, which nobody seems to want to discuss.

Thanks.

Jack

[Bill Miller]

I wasn't complaining, Peter. But I would like some discussion

on the Willis photo, which nobody seems to want to discuss.

Thanks.

Jack

Jack, this has been addressed many times to you. Can't you see the shelter is rotated between photos, thus the fields of view from the two photographers location would be different from one another. Did you never think to check this out during the many times that you have visited the plaza? Remember - you are supposed to be a master at understanding perspective.

Bill Miller

[Shanet Clark]

Jack

Lee Forman and I discussed the possibility of a shooter behind the Pergola,

possibly inside the shed behind the Pergola. This is a blinded and sheltered space,

an obvious choice for a sniper who wanted to shoot at the motorcade in Dealey.

This photo from the re-creation looks into the Pergola...........and shows a train in position.

The Louvers or windows in the concrete structure have been ignored, except by Lee, you and I.......

Edited August 22, 2006 by Shanet Clark

[Christopher T. George]

Jack, this has been addressed many times to you. Can't you see the shelter is rotated between photos, thus the fields of view from the two photographers location would be different from one another. Did you never think to check this out during the many times that you have visited the plaza? Remember - you are supposed to be a master at understanding perspective.

Bill Miller

Hi Jack

Bill is right in that the perspective in the two photographs you are trying to compare is different. In the one, we are looking full on at the Pergola. In the other, where you claim to see the train, we are looking sideways at the Pergola. But in fact that can't be a train because the train tracks run perpendicular to Elm Street and the Pergola, so what you think is a train cannot be a train.

Chris

Edited August 22, 2006 by Christopher T. George

[Bill Miller]

This one should be fairly well resolved ater one draws the perspective lines onto a plat of DP from the location and angle of the two photos and guessimation of the size of the train car.....

If only that were true, Peter. The illustration that you speak of has been done and is probably in this forum's archives. Below is one such example ... you will note that the lines pass through the same parts of the colonnade that the borders of the photos show.

Bill Miller

Edited August 22, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Christopher T. George]

Jack, this has been addressed many times to you. Can't you see the shelter is rotated between photos, thus the fields of view from the two photographers location would be different from one another. Did you never think to check this out during the many times that you have visited the plaza? Remember - you are supposed to be a master at understanding perspective.

Bill Miller

Hi Jack

Bill is right in that the perspective in the two photographs you are trying to compare is different. In the one, we are looking full on at the Pergola. In the other, where you claim to see the train, we are looking sideways at the Pergola. But in fact that can't be a train because the train tracks run perpendicular to Elm Street and the Pergola, so what you think is a train cannot be a train.

Chris

...but there is a train caboose (it seems) in the re-enactment photo...and if not a train then what...a large semi? Also, granted the alcove would have been a good location for a shooter except egress without carefull diversion and some players we have not seen or considered...or have we?....

Hi Peter

Yes I agree that in the re-enactment photo the shape looks caboose-ish although I think it is actually the cab of an old-style truck, as in the example below.

Chris

[Bill Miller]

Here is a photo of the tracks showing closest possible train locations.....

See page 350 of "Pictures of the Pain" by Richard Trask. The picture on page 350 was taken the afternoon of the assassination and the RR car is still sitting where it was during the shooting.

Bill Miller

[Jack White]

It was NOT a train, but rather three Pullman cars

on a siding (see movie EXECUTIVE ACTION).

Though parked, I think the Nix film shows them moving.

Jack

PS...the graphic below was done five or six years ago.

Edited August 22, 2006 by Jack White

[Christopher T. George]

Here is a photo of the tracks showing closest possible train locations.....

See page 350 of "Pictures of the Pain" by Richard Trask. The picture on page 350 was taken the afternoon of the assassination and the RR car is still sitting where it was during the shooting.

Bill Miller

Thanks, Bill and Peter. You chaps have the advantage over me in knowing that the railyard actually does (or at least did then in 1963) extend behind the Pergola. I still have to wonder though if what Jack things is a train actually is -- that is, would it appear that big and that tall, given that the rail tracks are some distance of yards behind the Pergola and the shot of the Pergola is taken somewhat from below the rail tracks and the Pergola not level with them.

Jack, yes technically not a train if it was just three Pullman cars, although your topic title does say "Where is that train in the window?" and if they were, as you say, moving, that would be tantamount to a train, wouldn't it???

Chris

Edited August 22, 2006 by Christopher T. George

[Bill Miller]

Jack, yes technically not a train if it was just three Pullman cars, although your topic title does say "Where is that train in the window?" and if they were, as you say, moving, that would be tantamount to a train, wouldn't it???

Chris

Chris, you may need to get use to Jack's way of double talking because one day he will say one thing and then the next time he will unknowingly contradict himself.

The reason for the train looking so large in one camera compared to another is a type of foreshortening effect even though that is probably not the correct term to use. The camera lens magnifies the more distant objects and this is why in the Nix film for instance ... the train looks to be parked right behind the fence despite it actually being across the RR yard.

Bill Miller

[Christopher T. George]

Jack, yes technically not a train if it was just three Pullman cars, although your topic title does say "Where is that train in the window?" and if they were, as you say, moving, that would be tantamount to a train, wouldn't it???

Chris

Chris, you may need to get use to Jack's way of double talking because one day he will say one thing and then the next time he will unknowingly contradict himself.

The reason for the train looking so large in one camera compared to another is a type of foreshortening effect even though that is probably not the correct term to use. The camera lens magnifies the more distant objects and this is why in the Nix film for instance ... the train looks to be parked right behind the fence despite it actually being across the RR yard.

Bill Miller

Thanks, Bill, sure yes I can accept that there may be somewhat of an optical illusion involved. Also I have questioned Jack's picture ideas before so I am used to his arguments.

Chris

[Jack White]

Here is a photo of the tracks showing closest possible train locations.....

See page 350 of "Pictures of the Pain" by Richard Trask. The picture on page 350 was taken the afternoon of the assassination and the RR car is still sitting where it was during the shooting.

Bill Miller

Thanks, Bill and Peter. You chaps have the advantage over me in knowing that the railyard actually does (or at least did then in 1963) extend behind the Pergola. I still have to wonder though if what Jack things is a train actually is -- that is, would it appear that big and that tall, given that the rail tracks are some distance of yards behind the Pergola and the shot of the Pergola is taken somewhat from below the rail tracks and the Pergola not level with them.

Jack, yes technically not a train if it was just three Pullman cars, although your topic title does say "Where is that train in the window?" and if they were, as you say, moving, that would be tantamount to a train, wouldn't it???

Chris

A "train" has a locomotive. It can still be a "train" with the locomotive

disconnected, as these three Pullman cars, but it cannot go anywhere

until reattached to a choo-choo, can it? Splitting hairs over word definitions

is not research, is it? It is like a train without a locomotive. Contribute

something positive, or hop the next freight out of town. But make sure

a locomotive is attached.

Jack