The Crash of the U-2 on November 20, 1963

[William Kelly]

By 11 a.m., the pilot completed the zig-zag flight plan over hostile territory taking classified pictures of areas assigned his mission and was approaching Key West, with the coast of Florida becoming larger and larger in the mid-morning sun. Earlier in the mission, in a required radio position report back to the SAC command post, the pilot indicated that his autopilot had failed.

By Joe Hyde

January 24, 2010

On November 20, 1963, from Barksdale Air Force Base, near Shreveport, Louisiana, a USAF U-2C took off on a reconnaissance sortie just after 6 a.m. to take photographs of the Island of Cuba.

One year and one month after the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis, Strategic Air Command (SAC) U-2s from the famed 4080th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing were tasked with continued Cuba overflights to ensure that the Soviet Union would not redeploy its offensive, medium-range nuclear missiles only 90 miles from Florida. Barksdale AFB was the location of temporary duty for the U-2s performing the Cuban missions at that time.

The pilot wasn't new to the Cuba mission. He had been flying the U-2 mission for over three years. Nor were sorties over Cuba just routine....\

Was it just a coincidence that Special Agent in Charge of the New Orleans office of the Secret Service John W. Rice was at the office of Special Investigations at Barksdale AFB at the time of the assassination?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...t=0#entry167223

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=14270

What was the special, non-routine mission of this U2 and what was John W. Rice doing at Barksdale at the time of the assassination?

BK

Okay,

So the U2 flew out of Barksdale. Just add it to the Shreveport file pile.

If indeed the downing of a U2 two days before the assassination had anything to do with what happened in Dallas, then it should become apparent.

BK

[Len Colby]

Just my opinion, but I think when he said "...Nor were sorties over Cuba just routine..." I believe the author was referring to the fact that the missions themselves were hazardous due to the threat from the SA-2, and not saying that the mission itself was unusual.

So then what was the mission?

BK

kay,

So the U2 flew out of Barksdale. Just add it to the Shreveport file pile.

If indeed the downing of a U2 two days before the assassination had anything to do with what happened in Dallas, then it should become apparent.

BK

Indeed Hyde III wrote

“One year and one month after the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis, Strategic Air Command (SAC) U-2s from the famed 4080th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing were tasked with continued Cuba overflights to ensure that the Soviet Union would not redeploy its offensive, medium-range nuclear missiles only 90 miles from Florida.”

AND

"Nor were sorties over Cuba just routine. At the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Soviet Union had removed their medium range nuclear missiles trained on the U.S. homeland, but they left Cuban President Fidel Castro with a gift of brand new SA-2 surface-to-air missiles (the NATO designation is “Guideline” missiles”) that were successful in downing a U-2 pilot named Francis “Frank” Gary Powers over Moscow in 1960. Castro was also given a squadron of state-of-the-art MiG 21 fighter aircraft that were clumsy at high altitude, but considered a formidable threat still."

"he was about to pin on his 5th Oak Leaf Cluster to an Air Medal, meaning it was his sixth Air Medal. Even by today’s standards with frequent deployments to two war zones, in Iraq and Afghanistan, earning six Air Medals within three years is the exception, not the rule. "

AND

"The U-2C the pilot was flying that day was a former “Agency Bird,”...Agency birds, because of their origin in the clandestine world, were modified on occasion to improve mission effectiveness, sometimes at the expense of safety."

Thus he obviously meant as Evan indicated that the flights were common but dangerous and thus not routine. As I indicated previously if you what greater detail you can e-mail Hyde III. Pay attention Bill!

I fail to how what USSS SAIC NO John W. Rice was doing at the Office of Special Investigations at Barksdale AFB a few hours after the assassination is at all relevant to the crash or assassination. My best guess is that it was related to counterfeiting/forgery or suspected counterfeiting/forgery involving the base and/or its personnel/residents or information turned up by one agency that would be of interest to the other

If indeed the downing of a U2 two days before the assassination had anything to do with what happened in Dallas, then it should become apparent.

Robert Howard,Greg Parker, Edward Chanter aka (Cod$#!t) and Trowbridge H. Ford have utterly failed to produce any evidence there was any connection.

[William Kelly]

Just my opinion, but I think when he said "...Nor were sorties over Cuba just routine..." I believe the author was referring to the fact that the missions themselves were hazardous due to the threat from the SA-2, and not saying that the mission itself was unusual.

So then what was the mission?

BK

kay,

So the U2 flew out of Barksdale. Just add it to the Shreveport file pile.

If indeed the downing of a U2 two days before the assassination had anything to do with what happened in Dallas, then it should become apparent.

BK

Indeed Hyde III wrote

"One year and one month after the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis, Strategic Air Command (SAC) U-2s from the famed 4080th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing were tasked with continued Cuba overflights to ensure that the Soviet Union would not redeploy its offensive, medium-range nuclear missiles only 90 miles from Florida."

AND

"Nor were sorties over Cuba just routine. At the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Soviet Union had removed their medium range nuclear missiles trained on the U.S. homeland, but they left Cuban President Fidel Castro with a gift of brand new SA-2 surface-to-air missiles (the NATO designation is "Guideline" missiles") that were successful in downing a U-2 pilot named Francis "Frank" Gary Powers over Moscow in 1960. Castro was also given a squadron of state-of-the-art MiG 21 fighter aircraft that were clumsy at high altitude, but considered a formidable threat still."

"he was about to pin on his 5th Oak Leaf Cluster to an Air Medal, meaning it was his sixth Air Medal. Even by today's standards with frequent deployments to two war zones, in Iraq and Afghanistan, earning six Air Medals within three years is the exception, not the rule. "

AND

"The U-2C the pilot was flying that day was a former "Agency Bird,"...Agency birds, because of their origin in the clandestine world, were modified on occasion to improve mission effectiveness, sometimes at the expense of safety."

Thus he obviously meant as Evan indicated that the flights were common but dangerous and thus not routine. As I indicated previously if you what greater detail you can e-mail Hyde III. Pay attention Bill!

I fail to how what USSS SAIC NO John W. Rice was doing at the Office of Special Investigations at Barksdale AFB a few hours after the assassination is at all relevant to the crash or assassination. My best guess is that it was related to counterfeiting/forgery or suspected counterfeiting/forgery involving the base and/or its personnel/residents or information turned up by one agency that would be of interest to the other

If indeed the downing of a U2 two days before the assassination had anything to do with what happened in Dallas, then it should become apparent.

Robert Howard,Greg Parker, Edward Chanter aka (Cod$#!t) and Trowbridge H. Ford have utterly failed to produce any evidence there was any connection.

Len,

You don't have to see any connection what so ever.

So why don't you just be resigned to the fact that there is no connection, and leave it alone, and let those of us who want to pursue these leads to do so without your interuption?

Thanks,

Bill Kelly

[Len Colby]

You sound like one of the emperor’s ministers insisting that his boss really is wearing a beautiful suit of clothes and complaining that I (the little boy) am "interrupting" all those who wish to "ooh" and "aww" over his new threads . One only needs to skim this thread to see that despite the best efforts of several to show otherwise, the crash bore little resemblance to Northwoods scenarios and there is no evidence it was a hoax, attempted false flag or in anyway tied the assassination. As for Rice being at Barksdale shortly after the assassination unless you propose a feasible scenario in which this was sinisterly tied the crash and/or assassination you’ll just have to “chalk it up to coincidence”.

[William Kelly]

You sound like one of the emperor's ministers insisting that his boss really is wearing a beautiful suit of clothes and complaining that I (the little boy) am "interrupting" all those who wish to "ooh" and "aww" over his new threads . One only needs to skim this thread to see that despite the best efforts of several to show otherwise, the crash bore little resemblance to Northwoods scenarios and there is no evidence it was a hoax, attempted false flag or in anyway tied the assassination. As for Rice being at Barksdale shortly after the assassination unless you propose a feasible scenario in which this was sinisterly tied the crash and/or assassination you'll just have to "chalk it up to coincidence".

I know this is called the "JFK Assassination Debate," and that you are always looking for an argument and a fight, but this thread is looking into the crash of the U2 on November 20, 1963 and trying to determine if there is a connection with the assassination.

If you read the early morning edition of the newspapers of September 11th, 2001 you will not find the screaming headlines of the following day, but if you read through the news articles on that quiet Tuesday morning you will find a report on the assassination of the leader of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan. While few people paid any attention to that report, it should have set off alarms, just as the shooting down of Gary Powers U2 did and the shooting down of the U2 during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Few people, even serious JFK assassination researchers knew that a U2 went down after flying over Cuba on November 20th, and the idea that JFK's assassination is somehow connected to Cuban affairs, certainly adds credence to this idea.

Of course the presence of SAIC NO SS John W. Rice at the Barksdale AFB Special Investigations office, where the U2 was stationed, makes one wonder what he was doing there hundreds of miles outside of New Orleans?

You say coincidence, and to pharaprase David Atlee Phillips - "the intelligence profession does not encourage one to accept coincidence as the cause of events."

Since we are not intelligence professionals but students and teachers, we can accept coincidence, though I'm not inclined to believe that in this case.

I think Rice was at Barksdale at the time of the assassination in the course of his Secret Service duties, and it wasn't to catch counterfieters, but possibly to investigate the report of an assassination threat agasints the president that originated with Rose Cheramie, who was found on a road not far from Barksdale.

Determining what the mission of the U2 was could also help in finding a connection to the assassination.

Searching the national news of the day - November 19-21 might also provide a clue, and the searching of the local Schreveport and Northern Louisiana newspapers might provide one as well.

If you read the article you posted about Joe Hyde, the son, his father was the victim of a deliberate sabatage during a training mission, and we suspect Powers' U2 was sabataged, so why would it be unthinkable to consider happening again?

I think Robert's original post is right on target and the information we are gathering is panning out, and whether or now it confirms his hypothesis that the two events may be connected, we are certainly learning some interesting things, aren't we?

And you have it backwards, you are the one who is admiring the emperior's clothes.

BK

[Len Colby]

I know this is called the "JFK Assassination Debate," and that you are always looking for an argument and a fight, but this thread is looking into the crash of the U2 on November 20, 1963 and trying to determine if there is a connection with the assassination.

And after 8 pages here and further discussion elsewhere those proposing there was a connection have failed to produce any evidence in support of their theories.

If you read the early morning edition of the newspapers of September 11th, 2001 you will not find the screaming headlines of the following day, but if you read through the news articles on that quiet Tuesday morning you will find a report on the assassination of the leader of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan. While few people paid any attention to that report, it should have set off alarms,

It’s easy to say after the fact that “it should have set off alarms” but even if it had it would have been unlikelyb to have prevented 9/11. And though there probably was a connection AFAIK one has never been demonstrated. It is believed OBL odered it for a few reasons such as 1) currying favor with the Taliban and weakening the US’s main ally in the country. But this has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

just as the shooting down of Gary Powers U2

and what catastrophic event did that foretell?

and the shooting down of the U2 during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Ditto, Anderson was shotdown near the end of the CMC, it has been speculated the incident pushed the sides towards reconciliation.

Few people, even serious JFK assassination researchers knew that a U2 went down after flying over Cuba on November 20th,

That’s because it was not an especially news worthy event and there is no evidence suggesting the two events were related.

and the idea that JFK's assassination is somehow connected to Cuban affairs, certainly adds credence to this idea.

?????

I have no idea what you were trying to say.

Of course the presence of SAIC NO SS John W. Rice at the Barksdale AFB Special Investigations office, where the U2 was stationed, makes one wonder what he was doing there hundreds of miles outside of New Orleans?

You say coincidence, and to pharaprase David Atlee Phillips - "the intelligence profession does not encourage one to accept coincidence as the cause of events."

To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, “some time a coincidence is just a coincidence” and in this case it seems that’s all that it was. George Winston Bush the CIA who was a watch officer the night after the assassination attended the U of Hawaii the same time as Obama’s parents. I think you should look into this, I mean it can’t be just a coincidence right? Warren Earl Burger succeeded Earl Warren as CJ SCOTUS,that must have been an Illuminati trick. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson both died on July 4,1826, they must have been murdered, etc etc.

Since we are not intelligence professionals but students and teachers, we can accept coincidence, though I'm not inclined to believe that in this case.

When you have evidence rather than just a gut feeling let me know

I think Rice was at Barksdale at the time of the assassination in the course of his Secret Service duties, and it wasn't to catch counterfieters, but possibly to investigate the report of an assassination threat agasints the president that originated with Rose Cheramie, who was found on a road not far from Barksdale.

LOL, look at the map, she was picked up “on Highway 190 near Eunice” (A) and by the 22nd was in a mental hospital in Jackson (

Determining what the mission of the U2 was could also help in finding a connection to the assassination.

You’ve been told “what the mission of the U2 was” 3 times already, should I put it in extra large underlined and bolded blue type for you? Hyde flew over Cuba to photograph suspected/potential missile sites. And let me guess, you haven’t bothered to ask Hyde’s son or the Cold War Museum if they could provide further detail.

"Searching the national news of the day - November 19-21 might also provide a clue, and the searching of the local Schreveport and Northern Louisiana newspapers might provide one as well. "

If I by a lottery ticket I ‘might’ win millions.

"If you read the article you posted about Joe Hyde, the son, his father was the victim of a deliberate sabatage during a training mission,"

?????

Reread the article he said nothing of the sort.

"...and we suspect Powers' U2 was sabataged, so why would it be unthinkable to consider happening again?"

Do you have any evidence to support your suspicion? Or are you using baseless speculation in one case to prop up baseless speculation in another?

"I think Robert's original post is right on target"

If you think that then you have been paying attention. He wrote:

Ponder for a moment the fact that when the U-2 was shot down before the diffusing of the Cuban Mussile Crisis in October 1962, the story was common knowledge, while the downing of Hyde's U-2 recieved markedly less coverage

While there has not been, to my knowledge, any clarification on the part of our Government as to the circumstances which led to the U-2 crash on Nov. 20, 1963and it's aftermath; the point that should be rasied is, why did a very similar scenario to the one detailed in the historical record of October of 1962 garner only three wire-service reports and then vanish as a news story, to the degree that it was practically, as if it never happened?

The question is a valid one, and the answers invariably enter into that very unpopular realm known as "conspiracy theory."

But I demonstrated that based on number of articles currently available online coverage the Hyde crash was similar to that of other U2 crashes and that despite being a much less newsworthy event and occurring just 2 days before the assassination got almost as much coverage as the Anderson shoot down. He started off with 2 false premises 1) the two crashes should have gotten similar amounts of coverage and 2) the 1963 incident got much less. As for the government not providing “clarification” they don’t normally due so in military crashes especially those whose technical details they want to remain secret.

He further speculated:

Their is a body of thought which asserts in relation to the U-2 crash near Key West that the reason the story was buried, [for the most part] was that "it" was a stand-by event, in which, if the linking of the assassination of JFK was made with the connivance of the Castro government then the "downing" of Capt. Hyde's U-2 could have been added on to the "flow of news stories" emaniating in the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination, which could have helped present a de facto causus belli for the annihilation of the Castro Regime, either by invasion or massive retaliatory air-strikes.

In the revelation that the new-President "did not warm" to either idea, presented in the last paraagraph. So the question beg's to be asked.....Was the burying of the news surrounding the loss of the U-2, part of the abandoning of the "plan to invade and/or unleash a massive air to ground assault on Cuba, once it was apparent that LBJ was not going to do anything rash?"

However I demonstrated that even when Kennedy was still alive the Pentagon was saying the crash was NOT due to enemy fire and there was no evidence they ever attempted to implicate Cuba for the crash (or the assassination), all news stories even those after the wreckage was found said it was presumed to have crashed due to mechanical failure. A story that appear in some newspapers (seemingly less that half) the day after the crash stated “the U-2 pilot did not radio any indication of trouble before the crash and the plane presumably went down due to mechanical trouble. However they said the crash could have been the result of a Cuban attack.”

But later stories from before the assassination said things like

"The Defense Department and Strategic Air Command said the reconnaissance plane probably crashed because of mechanical failure. When it went down, it was out of Cuban antiaircraft gun range, and the radar screen on which it was being traced apparently showed no other aircraft." (AP)

AND

“THE Strategic Air Command said the plane apparently developed mechanical failure and crashed.”(UPI)

"and the information we are gathering is panning out,"

Oh really care to give any examples?

"...and whether or now it confirms his hypothesis that the two events may be connected, we are certainly learning some interesting things, aren't we?"

Congratulations you did get one thing right!

"And you have it backwards, you are the one who is admiring the emperior's clothes."

LOL you are the one whose claims have repeatedly shown to be false.

[William Kelly]

QUOTE BK: and the idea that JFK's assassination is somehow connected to Cuban affairs, certainly adds credence to this idea.

LC: ?????

LC: I have no idea what you were trying to say.

BK: On reading anything about JFK, Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby, you must be struck by the Cuban aspects of their bios, and how the Cuban Connections to the assassination hold the key to understanding what happened at Dealey Plaza. Of course the assassination doesn't make any sense if you take it out of the Cuban context, and then you can believe anything you want.

BK: You say coincidence, and to pharaprase David Atlee Phillips - "the intelligence profession does not encourage one to accept coincidence as the cause of events."

LC: To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, "some time a coincidence is just a coincidence" and in this case it seems that's all that it was. George Winston Bush the CIA who was a watch officer the night after the assassination attended the U of Hawaii the same time as Obama's parents. I think you should look into this, I mean it can't be just a coincidence right? Warren Earl Burger succeeded Earl Warren as CJ SCOTUS,that must have been an Illuminati trick. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson both died on July 4,1826, they must have been murdered, etc etc.

BK: You can go chase those coincidences if you want to.

BK: "If you read the article you posted about Joe Hyde, the son, his father was the victim of a deliberate sabatage during a training mission,"

LC: ?????

LC: Reread the article he said nothing of the sort.

BK: "...and we suspect Powers' U2 was sabataged, so why would it be unthinkable to consider happening again?"

LC: Do you have any evidence to support your suspicion? Or are you using baseless speculation in one case to prop up baseless speculation in another?

Hyde: One story relayed to me about my father was of a check ride he endured in the T-33 upon arrival at Laughlin. On short final to Laughlin AFB's Runway 13 for final landing, the evaluator pilot deliberately shut off the fuel switches causing the engine to flame out just before touchdown. My father landed safely and allowed the aircraft to coast to a stop. After both pilots egressed the aircraft, the evaluator smiled and admitted that he had deliberately shut off the fuel in order to evaluate how my father would handle it. Not amused by his illegal and dangerous act, my dad, who had arms of steel forged from years of football, cold cocked the evaluator pilot.

How would Colby handle it?

Ah, shucks, it wasn't sabatoge, it was just a test, a practical joke, that's what it was, or was it just a coincidence?

Edited April 3, 2010 by William Kelly

[Evan Burton]

Bill,

Here is my input into the discussion.

The differences between a T-33 on short final and a U-2 at altitude are vast. It has been documented that the U-2 at altitude required a skilled hand in order to keep it within the envelope. Straying outside the envelope lead to major problems.

It was a known weakness of the U-2 design and accepted as such, and all pilots were aware of it. There are examples of skilled pilots inadvertently straying outside the envelope and getting themselves into trouble.

There were also documented examples of U-2 pilots suffering hypoxia problems; this alone offers a reasonable explanation for the Hyde loss (and was hypothesized by some) although not supported by the accident investigation board.

The hypothesis put forward by the AIB was that it was most likely a "mach tuck" situation, where the pilot exceeded limits and found themselves in an uncomfortable situation.

Is it possible that sabotage or foul play of some description occurred? Most certainly... but my limited examination has not produced any evidence to support that conclusion.

[John Dolva]

Evan, could you state the max achievable altitude of the early sixties U2, please?

[William Kelly]

Bill,

Here is my input into the discussion.

The differences between a T-33 on short final and a U-2 at altitude are vast. It has been documented that the U-2 at altitude required a skilled hand in order to keep it within the envelope. Straying outside the envelope lead to major problems.

It was a known weakness of the U-2 design and accepted as such, and all pilots were aware of it. There are examples of skilled pilots inadvertently straying outside the envelope and getting themselves into trouble.

There were also documented examples of U-2 pilots suffering hypoxia problems; this alone offers a reasonable explanation for the Hyde loss (and was hypothesized by some) although not supported by the accident investigation board.

The hypothesis put forward by the AIB was that it was most likely a "mach tuck" situation, where the pilot exceeded limits and found themselves in an uncomfortable situation.

Is it possible that sabotage or foul play of some description occurred? Most certainly... but my limited examination has not produced any evidence to support that conclusion.

Thanks Evan,

I understand the differences between the T-33 trainer, the U2 and the Navy F-8 Crusader, that did the low level recon during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

But the point being made is that it doesn't matter what kind of plane you are flying if someone intentionally sabatoged it. Hyde's plane was previously intentionally sabatoged, so the suggestion that it was sabatoged again is not that absurd, as Colby would have you believe.

And the answer to John Dolva's question is 70,000 feet.

BK

[Evan Burton]

Evan, could you state the max achievable altitude of the early sixties U2, please?

John,

The operational limitations are not disclosed as the aircraft is still in service, but it is known that the U-2C could loiter at 70,000 feet.

[Evan Burton]

Bill,

What intentional sabotage do you refer to? The T-33 incident?

[William Kelly]

Bill,

What intentional sabotage do you refer to? The T-33 incident?

How does it matter what kind of plane he was flying when it was intentionally sabataged?

If somebody puts a bomb in your car, does it matter if it's a Ford or a Chevy?

Hyde: One story relayed to me about my father was of a check ride he endured in the T-33 upon arrival at Laughlin. On short final to Laughlin AFB's Runway 13 for final landing, the evaluator pilot deliberately shut off the fuel switches causing the engine to flame out just before touchdown. My father landed safely and allowed the aircraft to coast to a stop. After both pilots egressed the aircraft, the evaluator smiled and admitted that he had deliberately shut off the fuel in order to evaluate how my father would handle it. Not amused by his illegal and dangerous act, my dad, who had arms of steel forged from years of football, cold cocked the evaluator pilot.

Edited April 4, 2010 by William Kelly

[Evan Burton]

Bill, the reason I ask because what you have highlighted above is NOT sabotage in my opinion. It is an incredibly stupid move by a check pilot but it is not sabotage in the mainstream meaning of the word. Unfortunately, this type of stupidity still turns up even today. Cases in point: a few years ago, the RAAF had a B707 crash because they practiced engine out asymmetric handling in flight, rather than in the simulator. It seems a similar situation was responsible for a crash recently in Darwin.

[William Kelly]

Bill, the reason I ask because what you have highlighted above is NOT sabotage in my opinion. It is an incredibly stupid move by a check pilot but it is not sabotage in the mainstream meaning of the word. Unfortunately, this type of stupidity still turns up even today. Cases in point: a few years ago, the RAAF had a B707 crash because they practiced engine out asymmetric handling in flight, rather than in the simulator. It seems a similar situation was responsible for a crash recently in Darwin.

So then, that IS an option in the determining of what became of Hyde's U2, that went down within days of President Kennedy's assassination, and was based at the SAC base in La. where SAIC John W. Rice was at the time of the assassination, and like Power's U2 downing that spoiled Eisenhower's detante with the USSR, and the U2 shot down during the Cuban Missile Crisis, which LeMay wanted to use as an excuse to exercise "rules of engagement" and retaliate by knocking out the missile site, thus sparking WWIII, it appears that the downing of a U2 during a major international crisis is not a coincidence but should be the subject of special attention.

Yea Evan, it wasn't sabatoge by an enemy combatant, it was just a practical joke by one of his ground crew.

You can be certain that if it was me on a mission, I wouldn't accept you as a wingman.

BK