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"I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him".

Although I very much liked John Kennedy, I have NEVER shared the "sheer adulation" that so many on this and other forums seem to display.

To listen to many of you, you often speak of the "double assassination" of JFK. The second being by those of you who seem to feel that some of the unsavory truths about JFK, RFK, and Joe Sr. should be "unmentionables". Often when I post something that is true, though unflattering about the Kennedy's, I feel that there is an attempt by

some/many for me to wash my mouth out and "run, not walk" to confession!

"Lancer" was not a Holy Knight chosen by the almighty to be THE shining example of male American virtue. To the best of my knowledge, neither were any of the Kennedy's, including Rose .

My purpose on these forums is not to "in any way",

exalt any of the Kennedy family. When I say something which I feel true, tho uncomplimentary, I have never insinuated that similar behavior was not undertaken by others of their social and financial class. And yes, I do attribute much of Kennedy success to their privileged position and the pressure and drive of Joseph SR. Do any of you feel that the Kennedy brothers fought their way up "thru the ranks"? Do ANY of you feel that RFK "earned" the position of Attorney General? There can be much said that without the forceful guidance and prodding and the introduction and support of some large sums of money from Joe Sr., that perhaps none of the "Kennedy Boys" would have reached their lofty levels.

I personally feel that unless you are able to personally disregard the truthful tho less complimentary aspects of the Kennedy's, you are labeled a Kennedy Basher.

I feel that this is a quite immature approach, and a forced reluctance to accept what is quite visible to most. I feel that Jack Kennedy brought a great deal of "Pride and Hope" to this nation during a time of crisis and severe struggle, and I personally felt quite proud for him to be my President and Commander in Chief. And for one to have great respect for The President and the office of The President, does not require that the person holding that office be elevated to "Sainthood".

The Kennedy Bothers were fine young men, as were many in this country, who shared the same strengths and weaknesses as other young men, engaged in some acts that brought pride to their families, and other acts which did not.

They were fortunate to be of a privileged family, and I feel that perhaps it will be said in the final chapter, this "privilege" endowed them with a spirit too reckless and independent, for their own welfare, and that of those whom they served.

I really don't understand why, as a result of certain recent posts by other members, that I should have responded in this manner.

This was initially about the attempted preservation of Kennedy family secrets which they have the right in most cases, to do, as do we all. Whether secrets pertaining to the President's health should be included in this, I cannot judge. I feel that some "little lies" like this had some serious and long lasting effects which influenced decisions as important and damning as JFK's autopsy.

I feel that I have nothing that I would like to retract in my obvious lack of adulation of the Kennedy Family. I never hinted that any of them should have been "fault free", but I feel that privileged position gave them a false sense of security and power, which perhaps was their undoing.

Charlie Black

********************************************************

"I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him".

"Friends, Romans, and Countrymen, lend me your ears. I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him."

My purpose on these forums is not to "in any way," exalt any of the Kennedy family. When I say something which I feel true, tho uncomplimentary, I have never insinuated that similar behavior was not undertaken by others of their social and financial class. And yes, I do attribute much of Kennedy success to their privileged position and the pressure and drive of Joseph SR. Do any of you feel that the Kennedy brothers fought their way up "through the ranks"? Do ANY of you feel that RFK "earned" the position of Attorney General? There can be much said that without the forceful guidance and prodding and the introduction and support of some large sums of money from Joe Sr., that perhaps none of the "Kennedy Boys" would have reached their lofty levels.

It's unfortunate if you weren't around in the summer of 1955, when the Senate's "Rackets" Investigation Committee was in session and being televised, to have been able to have observed the two brothers in action. Especially, RFK's interrogation of these mob figures, at the time. I was only 10 years old, but got a lesson in what the "Fifth Amendment" meant. I became what you might describe as "transfixed" by these two brothers, and looked forward to 1:00 in the afternoon, just so I could watch this guy, who looked like a teenager, hammer away at these tough guys, who would pronounce the word, "incriminate" as "incrimidate." Bobby would say, "Have you, at any time, been involved with...?" And, the suspect would answer, "I refuse to answer on the grounds that the it may tend to incrimidate me." Then, JFK would say, "Let me rephrase the question for you, Sir." And, it went on like that for days.

I began to understand that you might be able to get the answer you wanted, or more importantly, get your point across, by the questions you posed to a person. And, regardless of whether they answered you, or plead "the Fifth," the body language, or lack of, was enough to lead you to draw your own conclusions. And, this was long before body language was even considered, outside of a poker game.

So, even though I was only 10, at the time, I learned a great deal about the judicial system, and the methodology used in cross-examination and inquiry on the gov. level, that I might not have had the chance to be exposed to until I got to high school. And, it was a great opportunity to have had the time, with school out of session, to observe these proceedings "live," and in action. And, even as a child of 10, I became acutely aware of this brother named "Bobby" who won me over at such a young and tender age. I was actually sad, when the proceedings ended. The same feeling you get after finishing a great book.

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"I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him".

Although I very much liked John Kennedy, I have NEVER shared the "sheer adulation" that so many on this and other forums seem to display.

To listen to many of you, you often speak of the "double assassination" of JFK. The second being by those of you who seem to feel that some of the unsavory truths about JFK, RFK, and Joe Sr. should be "unmentionables". Often when I post something that is true, though unflattering about the Kennedy's, I feel that there is an attempt by

some/many for me to wash my mouth out and "run, not walk" to confession!

"Lancer" was not a Holy Knight chosen by the almighty to be THE shining example of male American virtue. To the best of my knowledge, neither were any of the Kennedy's, including Rose .

My purpose on these forums is not to "in any way",

exalt any of the Kennedy family. When I say something which I feel true, tho uncomplimentary, I have never insinuated that similar behavior was not undertaken by others of their social and financial class. And yes, I do attribute much of Kennedy success to their privileged position and the pressure and drive of Joseph SR. Do any of you feel that the Kennedy brothers fought their way up "thru the ranks"? Do ANY of you feel that RFK "earned" the position of Attorney General? There can be much said that without the forceful guidance and prodding and the introduction and support of some large sums of money from Joe Sr., that perhaps none of the "Kennedy Boys" would have reached their lofty levels.

I personally feel that unless you are able to personally disregard the truthful tho less complimentary aspects of the Kennedy's, you are labeled a Kennedy Basher.

I feel that this is a quite immature approach, and a forced reluctance to accept what is quite visible to most. I feel that Jack Kennedy brought a great deal of "Pride and Hope" to this nation during a time of crisis and severe struggle, and I personally felt quite proud for him to be my President and Commander in Chief. And for one to have great respect for The President and the office of The President, does not require that the person holding that office be elevated to "Sainthood".

The Kennedy Bothers were fine young men, as were many in this country, who shared the same strengths and weaknesses as other young men, engaged in some acts that brought pride to their families, and other acts which did not.

They were fortunate to be of a privileged family, and I feel that perhaps it will be said in the final chapter, this "privilege" endowed them with a spirit too reckless and independent, for their own welfare, and that of those whom they served.

I really don't understand why, as a result of certain recent posts by other members, that I should have responded in this manner.

This was initially about the attempted preservation of Kennedy family secrets which they have the right in most cases, to do, as do we all. Whether secrets pertaining to the President's health should be included in this, I cannot judge. I feel that some "little lies" like this had some serious and long lasting effects which influenced decisions as important and damning as JFK's autopsy.

I feel that I have nothing that I would like to retract in my obvious lack of adulation of the Kennedy Family. I never hinted that any of them should have been "fault free", but I feel that privileged position gave them a false sense of security and power, which perhaps was their undoing.

Charlie Black

********************************************************

"I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him".

"Friends, Romans, and Countrymen, lend me your ears. I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him."

My purpose on these forums is not to "in any way," exalt any of the Kennedy family. When I say something which I feel true, tho uncomplimentary, I have never insinuated that similar behavior was not undertaken by others of their social and financial class. And yes, I do attribute much of Kennedy success to their privileged position and the pressure and drive of Joseph SR. Do any of you feel that the Kennedy brothers fought their way up "through the ranks"? Do ANY of you feel that RFK "earned" the position of Attorney General? There can be much said that without the forceful guidance and prodding and the introduction and support of some large sums of money from Joe Sr., that perhaps none of the "Kennedy Boys" would have reached their lofty levels.

It's unfortunate if you weren't around in the summer of 1955, when the Senate's "Rackets" Investigation Committee was in session and being televised, to have been able to have observed the two brothers in action. Especially, RFK's interrogation of these mob figures, at the time. I was only 10 years old, but got a lesson in what the "Fifth Amendment" meant. I became what you might describe as "transfixed" by these two brothers, and looked forward to 1:00 in the afternoon, just so I could watch this guy, who looked like a teenager, hammer away at these tough guys, who would pronounce the word, "incriminate" as "incrimidate." Bobby would say, "Have you, at any time, been involved with...?" And, the suspect would answer, "I refuse to answer on the grounds that the it may tend to incrimidate me." Then, JFK would say, "Let me rephrase the question for you, Sir." And, it went on like that for days.

I began to understand that you might be able to get the answer you wanted, or more importantly, get your point across, by the questions you posed to a person. And, regardless of whether they answered you, or plead "the Fifth," the body language, or lack of, was enough to lead you to draw your own conclusions. And, this was long before body language was even considered, outside of a poker game.

So, even though I was only 10, at the time, I learned a great deal about the judicial system, and the methodology used in cross-examination and inquiry on the gov. level, that I might not have had the chance to be exposed to until I got to high school. And, it was a great opportunity to have had the time, with school out of session, to observe these proceedings "live," and in action. And, even as a child of 10, I became acutely aware of this brother named "Bobby" who won me over at such a young and tender age. I was actually sad, when the proceedings ended. The same feeling you get after finishing a great book.

I have seen clips of Bobby Kennedy grilling Sam Giancana. When Bobby said to him, (paraphrase) "Are you going to answer my questions, or are you going to sit there and giggle? I thought only little girls giggled." I always thought that was the first bullet shot in Dealey Plaza. And to me, it looked like John Kennedy wished he was anywhere but there as these hearings went on. Also, there was a mobster who, for some reason, the camera could not show his face. But the body language of the man's hands told a lot. You would know better than I who that was. I don't think I was even born yet.

I loved Bobby Kennedy. My brother and I were so happy he was running. And then the inevitable (in retrospect) assassination. I couldn't talk about him for years. It was the thing we couldn't acknowledge. Until Mailer's book came out, Marilyn, which suggested she was intimate with Bobby. I don't know -- it was like a balm. And it was all right to talk about him again.

Ask Sigmund Freud...

Kathy

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"I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him".

Although I very much liked John Kennedy, I have NEVER shared the "sheer adulation" that so many on this and other forums seem to display.

To listen to many of you, you often speak of the "double assassination" of JFK. The second being by those of you who seem to feel that some of the unsavory truths about JFK, RFK, and Joe Sr. should be "unmentionables". Often when I post something that is true, though unflattering about the Kennedy's, I feel that there is an attempt by

some/many for me to wash my mouth out and "run, not walk" to confession!

"Lancer" was not a Holy Knight chosen by the almighty to be THE shining example of male American virtue. To the best of my knowledge, neither were any of the Kennedy's, including Rose .

My purpose on these forums is not to "in any way",

exalt any of the Kennedy family. When I say something which I feel true, tho uncomplimentary, I have never insinuated that similar behavior was not undertaken by others of their social and financial class. And yes, I do attribute much of Kennedy success to their privileged position and the pressure and drive of Joseph SR. Do any of you feel that the Kennedy brothers fought their way up "thru the ranks"? Do ANY of you feel that RFK "earned" the position of Attorney General? There can be much said that without the forceful guidance and prodding and the introduction and support of some large sums of money from Joe Sr., that perhaps none of the "Kennedy Boys" would have reached their lofty levels.

I personally feel that unless you are able to personally disregard the truthful tho less complimentary aspects of the Kennedy's, you are labeled a Kennedy Basher.

I feel that this is a quite immature approach, and a forced reluctance to accept what is quite visible to most. I feel that Jack Kennedy brought a great deal of "Pride and Hope" to this nation during a time of crisis and severe struggle, and I personally felt quite proud for him to be my President and Commander in Chief. And for one to have great respect for The President and the office of The President, does not require that the person holding that office be elevated to "Sainthood".

The Kennedy Bothers were fine young men, as were many in this country, who shared the same strengths and weaknesses as other young men, engaged in some acts that brought pride to their families, and other acts which did not.

They were fortunate to be of a privileged family, and I feel that perhaps it will be said in the final chapter, this "privilege" endowed them with a spirit too reckless and independent, for their own welfare, and that of those whom they served.

I really don't understand why, as a result of certain recent posts by other members, that I should have responded in this manner.

This was initially about the attempted preservation of Kennedy family secrets which they have the right in most cases, to do, as do we all. Whether secrets pertaining to the President's health should be included in this, I cannot judge. I feel that some "little lies" like this had some serious and long lasting effects which influenced decisions as important and damning as JFK's autopsy.

I feel that I have nothing that I would like to retract in my obvious lack of adulation of the Kennedy Family. I never hinted that any of them should have been "fault free", but I feel that privileged position gave them a false sense of security and power, which perhaps was their undoing.

Charlie Black

********************************************************

"I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him".

"Friends, Romans, and Countrymen, lend me your ears. I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him."

My purpose on these forums is not to "in any way," exalt any of the Kennedy family. When I say something which I feel true, tho uncomplimentary, I have never insinuated that similar behavior was not undertaken by others of their social and financial class. And yes, I do attribute much of Kennedy success to their privileged position and the pressure and drive of Joseph SR. Do any of you feel that the Kennedy brothers fought their way up "through the ranks"? Do ANY of you feel that RFK "earned" the position of Attorney General? There can be much said that without the forceful guidance and prodding and the introduction and support of some large sums of money from Joe Sr., that perhaps none of the "Kennedy Boys" would have reached their lofty levels.

It's unfortunate if you weren't around in the summer of 1955, when the Senate's "Rackets" Investigation Committee was in session and being televised, to have been able to have observed the two brothers in action. Especially, RFK's interrogation of these mob figures, at the time. I was only 10 years old, but got a lesson in what the "Fifth Amendment" meant. I became what you might describe as "transfixed" by these two brothers, and looked forward to 1:00 in the afternoon, just so I could watch this guy, who looked like a teenager, hammer away at these tough guys, who would pronounce the word, "incriminate" as "incrimidate." Bobby would say, "Have you, at any time, been involved with...?" And, the suspect would answer, "I refuse to answer on the grounds that the it may tend to incrimidate me." Then, JFK would say, "Let me rephrase the question for you, Sir." And, it went on like that for days.

I began to understand that you might be able to get the answer you wanted, or more importantly, get your point across, by the questions you posed to a person. And, regardless of whether they answered you, or plead "the Fifth," the body language, or lack of, was enough to lead you to draw your own conclusions. And, this was long before body language was even considered, outside of a poker game.

So, even though I was only 10, at the time, I learned a great deal about the judicial system, and the methodology used in cross-examination and inquiry on the gov. level, that I might not have had the chance to be exposed to until I got to high school. And, it was a great opportunity to have had the time, with school out of session, to observe these proceedings "live," and in action. And, even as a child of 10, I became acutely aware of this brother named "Bobby" who won me over at such a young and tender age. I was actually sad, when the proceedings ended. The same feeling you get after finishing a great book.

I have seen clips of Bobby Kennedy grilling Sam Giancana. When Bobby said to him, (paraphrase) "Are you going to answer my questions, or are you going to sit there and giggle? I thought only little girls giggled." I always thought that was the first bullet shot in Dealey Plaza. And to me, it looked like John Kennedy wished he was anywhere but there as these hearings went on. Also, there was a mobster who, for some reason, the camera could not show his face. But the body language of the man's hands told a lot. You would know better than I who that was. I don't think I was even born yet.

I loved Bobby Kennedy. My brother and I were so happy he was running. And then the inevitable (in retrospect) assassination. I couldn't talk about him for years. It was the thing we couldn't acknowledge. Until Mailer's book came out, Marilyn, which suggested she was intimate with Bobby. I don't know -- it was like a balm. And it was all right to talk about him again.

Ask Sigmund Freud...

Kathy

*******************************************************

"Ask Sigmund Freud..."

Freud was a fraud. I'd rather ask Carl Jung, the only qualified psych in the history of the field of Psychology, as far as I'm concerned.

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To all

I apologize for my misquote of Marc Antony....it had been years since I had last read it and should have looked it up.

I however firmly believe in my other comments that "I personally feel, quite true".

Not in an attempt to change the views of any of you Robert Kennedy supporters, I felt that his actions before the sub commitee seemed "quite childish" to me....particularly his immature and ridiculous comments to Sam Giancana. I think that his personal behavior may have induced, "more" not less, support for the "bad guys". IMHO, he displayed a childish lack of class.

It was with this performance clearly in mind, that I was more than "shocked" with his appointment as Attorney General. In a great many areas, I feel that "Bobby" and Joe Sr.'s actions had more to do with JFK's assassination than aything that Jack had said or done. I further feel that his often childish "exchanges" with Hoover, and his constant and open critical comments to LBJ went a long way toward being some of the nails in the Presidents coffin.

Even though I personally "despise" Hoover and feel that LBJ was a "long time" criminal, I feel that some of the actions of Bobby, whom I refer to "in the early sixties" as a "ridiculous upstart", went far in broadening the gap between these two powerful figures and the President. Someone should have explained to Bobby, the benefits of properly attempted political manipulation. Actually, were he at all qualified, no one would have needed to. I don't feel that it is proper to show a public lack of respect to figures as powerful and prominent as LBJ and JEH. His bother certainly didn't!

I feel that Bobby had progressed "little" at the time of his confrontations with Hoffa. An arrogant lack of respect should be dispayed by "NO PUBLIC FIGURE" ! An Attorney General should behave in a manner deserving his title .....and not as a schoolboy.

I don't claim to be a psychologist, but my layman's view is that Bobby exhibited many of the characteristics of what I personally, not professionally, term "the litle man syndrome".

I certainly feel that there is good reason for Bobby to have entered a state of deep depression following his brother's murder....and considered, I have read, that he felt his (Bobby's) personal conduct may have had a significant role in the plan to murder his brother. If this is true, it may have been his foremost acknowledgement.

I am helpless to offer any comfort to you "Bobby supporters", when I say that his appointment as Attorney General may have been the greatest single political disaster of JFK's Presidency.

No! I don't feel that he was qualified....it was flagrant nepotism.....and I feel that this action had much to do with the formation of a coalition against a possible "24 year Kennedy Dynasty".

I feel that Robert's lack of maturity and sound political behavior, coupled with his deplorable manners and arrogant behavior, contributed more to his brother's downfall than any other single

person.....including the trigger pullers.

These are my personal feelings only and I am unwilling to engage in a multi paged debate regarding these points. You may each believe what you like.

Having held these opinions for almost four decades,

and having given "years" of thought to them.....

the chance of my opinion being changed is virtually non-existant. Yes, you may say that I have a "closed mind" on this issue, and I will agree !

Charlie Black

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Charlie,

I can understand your thoughts and feelings regarding Robert Kennedy. Although, I also believe he was a kid at heart and quite possibly tried to over compensatedby being hardnose, arrogant and ruthless at times. I have also never had much use for Ted Kennedy, but some in his state seems to think a lot of him, since he has been a Senator for many years.

I am thinking this might be somewhat unusal, but I have been doing some essays on the past First Ladies. I have done ten, so far, which is on my private website. This has been a curiosity of mine and I am learning things about the past Presidents and their families, that I never knew before. Below, I have added some information in regard to some things I have discovered. Apparently, money, power and prestige affected some Presidents families differently.

First of all, our Fourth President, John Madison married Dolly Madison. She had a son by a previous marriage named John Payne. As John was growing up, they were both much too lenient with him. He was addicted to gambling and was always needing to be bailed out.. But after John Madison died, John Payne lost all he had and caused Dolly to eventually have to sell the Madison Documents and also Montpelier just to pay off debts he had created.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Our Sixth President was John Quincy Adams who married Louisa. John's father was our 2nd Presisdent John Adams and his wife was Abigal. John and Abigal practically raised two of John Quincy and Louisas sons, so they could be educated in the U.S, John Quincy was a Diplomat and he and Louisa were living in Europe. They took their youngest son with them.

Louisa had a most difficuly life being married to John Quincy. Mostly he regarded her as a non-person. Plus John and Abigal also didn't like her, because she was from England and had French schooling and was cultured. She went through much hardship just to be with her husband in his travels. Her years in the Whitehouse were mostly spent in her own quarters in a state of depression. She had both a son and daughter that died when very young which she couldn't seem to get over.

She did play a harp and sang some and entertained when she was able to. She also raised silkworms, which she would collect the silk and wind into yarn for knitting. Yet, she seems to have been a most tragic person, even though she had previously been a lovely, charning young woman. When she saw her First Lady Portrait, she stated that she only looked half alive. Ironically, Pat Nixon chose Louisa's portrait to hang in he White House. Many years later, Louisa's grandson wrote a book about her and how different she could have been if she had not been married to John Quincy Adams.

John Quincy was sarcastic and hated small talk and I believe cut Louisa down constantly. I also believe he was a womanizer, as were his sons. However, after leaving the White House and in later years, John Quincy mellowed out and he did make peace with Louisa. But here is how their three sons turned out.......

George Washington Adams, the oldest son was a brilliant young man who had graduated from Harvard and studied law with Daniel Webster, George was also a rake. He neglected his law practice, ran up huge debts, impregnated and abandoned a young girl, frequently visited prostitutes, had fits of paranoia, suffered hallucinations, used opium, and was suicidal. When his mom (Louisa) found books of pornography in his room, she feared that the young boy looked upon women as mere objects of sexual pleasure. On a steamer bound for New York, George, aged twenty-eight, accused his fellow passengers of plotting against him. The next day he disappeared and his body washed up on shore six weeks later.

The next eldest son, John Adams II, married in the White House on February 25, 1828, which was one of the brightest moments of her time on the White

House. John Adams II, although more stable, had his share of troubles too. He was expelled from Harvard in his senior year for taking part in a student riot. Later, as his father's private secretary, he engaged in a fistfight with an anti-administration journalist in the Capitol Rotunda, causing a special committee to be convened to investigate the assault. Although his opponent was censured, his mother was terribly embarrased. After John Quincy's defeat by Jackson, John Adams II ran a Washington flourmill owned by the family, but his health failed and he died at age thirty-one, suffering from acute alcoholism.

The youngest son, Charles Francis Adams, who lived to become a distinguished diplomat, public servant, and author, shared with his older brothers a common character trait: it seems that all of the Adams men, including John Quincy Adams, were sexually active with prostitutes as young men and read pornographic literature. Louisa Adams criticized all of her sons directly for their willingness to participate in what she termed "loathsome and disgusting pictures of actions . . . that render them . . . unfit for any society but the lowest and most degraded.

__________________________________

Our Eighth President, Martin Van Buren married Hannah. They were married twelve years and had four sons and she died before he ever became President.

This is the description of their sons!

Abraham Van Buren (1807-1873), the eldest, graduated from West Point and served in the army. He resigned from the army in 1837 to serve as secretary to his father during his single term as President. He rejoined the army during the Mexican War, and was promoted for bravery (they gave promotions rather than medals at that time) at the battles of Contreras and Churubusco.

John Van Buren (1810-1866) was a lawyer. He served as secretary of the American legation in London during his father's stint as minister-designate to Great Britain. He was later elected to the U.S. House of Representatives where he emerged as a leading opponent of slavery. He later allied himself with the Barnburner faction of the New York Democratic Party, which opposed all compromise with the South on the issue of slavery.

Martin Van Buren, Jr. (1812-1855) was a student of political science and history. He served as a political aide to his father throughout his career and compiled the information used by the former President in writing his memoirs.

Smith Thompson Van Buren (1817-1876) also served as a political aide to his father. He drafted many of his father's speeches and, as literary executor of his father's estate, edited the Van Buren Papers. He married a niece of Washington Irving.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Just something a little dfferent in regard to Presidential families. One more thought though. It seems a lot of Presidents have a renegade brother, that they would just as soon keep hidden...:-)

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To all

I apologize for my misquote of Marc Antony....it had been years since I had last read it and should have looked it up.

I however firmly believe in my other comments that "I personally feel, quite true".

Not in an attempt to change the views of any of you Robert Kennedy supporters, I felt that his actions before the sub commitee seemed "quite childish" to me....particularly his immature and ridiculous comments to Sam Giancana. I think that his personal behavior may have induced, "more" not less, support for the "bad guys". IMHO, he displayed a childish lack of class.

It was with this performance clearly in mind, that I was more than "shocked" with his appointment as Attorney General. In a great many areas, I feel that "Bobby" and Joe Sr.'s actions had more to do with JFK's assassination than aything that Jack had said or done. I further feel that his often childish "exchanges" with Hoover, and his constant and open critical comments to LBJ went a long way toward being some of the nails in the Presidents coffin.

Even though I personally "despise" Hoover and feel that LBJ was a "long time" criminal, I feel that some of the actions of Bobby, whom I refer to "in the early sixties" as a "ridiculous upstart", went far in broadening the gap between these two powerful figures and the President. Someone should have explained to Bobby, the benefits of properly attempted political manipulation. Actually, were he at all qualified, no one would have needed to. I don't feel that it is proper to show a public lack of respect to figures as powerful and prominent as LBJ and JEH. His bother certainly didn't!

I feel that Bobby had progressed "little" at the time of his confrontations with Hoffa. An arrogant lack of respect should be dispayed by "NO PUBLIC FIGURE" ! An Attorney General should behave in a manner deserving his title .....and not as a schoolboy.

I don't claim to be a psychologist, but my layman's view is that Bobby exhibited many of the characteristics of what I personally, not professionally, term "the litle man syndrome".

I certainly feel that there is good reason for Bobby to have entered a state of deep depression following his brother's murder....and considered, I have read, that he felt his (Bobby's) personal conduct may have had a significant role in the plan to murder his brother. If this is true, it may have been his foremost acknowledgement.

I am helpless to offer any comfort to you "Bobby supporters", when I say that his appointment as Attorney General may have been the greatest single political disaster of JFK's Presidency.

No! I don't feel that he was qualified....it was flagrant nepotism.....and I feel that this action had much to do with the formation of a coalition against a possible "24 year Kennedy Dynasty".

I feel that Robert's lack of maturity and sound political behavior, coupled with his deplorable manners and arrogant behavior, contributed more to his brother's downfall than any other single

person.....including the trigger pullers.

These are my personal feelings only and I am unwilling to engage in a multi paged debate regarding these points. You may each believe what you like.

Having held these opinions for almost four decades,

and having given "years" of thought to them.....

the chance of my opinion being changed is virtually non-existant. Yes, you may say that I have a "closed mind" on this issue, and I will agree !

Charlie Black

****************************************************************************

"I apologize for my misquote of Marc Antony....it had been years since I had last read it and should have looked it up.

I however firmly believe in my other comments that "I personally feel, quite true"."

You need never apologize for anything, Charles. Your beliefs are yours to express. Isn't that what civil discourse is supposed to be based upon?

"I felt that his actions before the sub-committee seemed "quite childish" to me....particularly his immature and ridiculous comments to Sam Giancana. I think that his personal behavior may have induced, "more" not less, support for the "bad guys". IMHO, he displayed a childish lack of class.

Yes, but I will always be grateful for the education I inadvertently received, while remaining engrossed in these proceedings, as a "child" of 10, in the summer of 1955.

'It was with this performance clearly in mind, that I was more than "shocked" with his appointment as Attorney General. In a great many areas, I feel that "Bobby" and Joe Sr.'s actions had more to do with JFK's assassination than anything that Jack had said or done. I further feel that his often childish "exchanges" with Hoover, and his constant and open critical comments to LBJ went a long way toward being some of the nails in the Presidents coffin."

Be that as it may, regardless of whose actions may have incited the assassination, NO ONE HAS A GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO TAKE ANOTHER MAN'S LIFE, except maybe in self-defense. JFK was sucker-shot, and ambushed at high noon! Whatever actions his siblings or his father may have been guilty of, still did not warrant that act to be perpetrated on JFK, and in front of the whole world. This is one of the reasons I find it hard to accept the theory of "the Cosa Nostra" doing the deed. They may have been known for being "cold-blooded" in the past, when it came to "an eye for an eye" type of vendetta situations, as far as inter-familial, or inter-territorial boundary disputes, were concerned. But, by the time JFK had been in office, the mob had been reasonably assimilated into mainstream corporate, import/export, and transit venues. Even if they had offices on Wall Street, as well. Even if they were "made" into the CIA, as mechanics, captains, or lieutenants. They were considered "legit" by the last half of the 20th Century. If they weren't into merging corporations, they were marrying into families like the Rockwell's of Rockwell International. I know, because I attended just such a wedding back in the early 1970's. 1973, to be exact. In fact, here's a little anecdote from the "groom", regarding the eventual take-over of the waterfronts, airports, and trucking lines. Frank related a story about how the term, "dago" was entered into the English language. He said that, "When the Italians first came to the U.S. at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries, and were given jobs on the docks, the Irish were running the show. So, when the ships would come into the slips at the pier and dock, one of the long shoremen would ask who was going to be assigned to clean out the bilge from the bottom of the ships. The boss would point his finger at the Italians, and say "Dey go." After that, WE took over the waterfront, the docks, the airports, the transit systems, and the truckers, and never gave them up." Oh, and BTW, the term WOP, came from the W.O.P. stamp at Ellis Island that meant, "With-Out-Papers."

As far as Hoover and LBJ go, they were considered to be "easily pliable" buffoons by the time the elite decided to take out a contract on JFK. Hoover for his own set of "dark secrets" that were increasingly becoming a liability, should certain operators or social acquaintances find themselves compromised into revealing what was really going down in those sordid soirees, of which he was known to partake. And, LBJ was nothing more than a small-time/town operator, who managed to make it to the big time by having his corn-pone Tejas hired-hands, and/or D.C. henchmen take care of any damage control that may have been created along the way, while he was busy clawing his way to the top. I personally don't think LBJ had anything to do with the murder, as far as giving any signal or go ahead to anyone, even if he did happen to make that remark Madeleine Brown attributed to him. He was too busy worrying about his own hide, and most likely was repeating a promise made to him by Hoover, and his merry band of men. He was no fool, mind you, but he knew to whom his Tejas oil buddies were beholden to answer. He definitely had to know who those people were. You could say that LBJ sold his soul to the same "devil-at-the-crossroads" that another man [a black man] named Johnson, is noted for having done. All for the price of fame and glory.

"I don't claim to be a psychologist, but my layman's view is that Bobby exhibited many of the characteristics of what I personally, not professionally, term "the little man syndrome"."

Are you referring to what is known as a "Napoleonic" complex, by any chance?

"I am helpless to offer any comfort to you "Bobby supporters", when I say that his appointment as Attorney General may have been the greatest single political disaster of JFK's Presidency.

No! I don't feel that he was qualified....it was flagrant nepotism.....and I feel that this action had much to do with the formation of a coalition against a possible "24 year Kennedy Dynasty"."

No offers of comfort are needed, Charlie. And, when you think about it, maybe it was JFK who needed the "firebrand" rhetoric of Bobby's personality to go up against that lecherous excuse for a human being, JEH. Bobby was a definite "scrapper," but that was a part of his personality that I admired. He was by far, the "Bones" alter-ego, if you will. An analogy drawn from the early StarTrek series with Captain Kirk's personality sometimes influenced or intertwined with his starship physican's staccato-type personality. On the other hand, JFK's personality was more in tuned with Mr. Spock's and Captain Kirk's relationship dynamic, more stoic and retrospective with regard to decision making and Cold War diplomacy.

"I feel that Robert's lack of maturity and sound political behavior, coupled with his deplorable manners and arrogant behavior, contributed more to his brother's downfall than any other single person.....including the trigger pullers.

These are my personal feelings only and I am unwilling to engage in a multi paged debate regarding these points. You may each believe what you like."

And, trust me Charlie, we're just as unwilling to engage in a multi-page debate, regarding these points, as well. Isn't that the beauty of what free speech is all about? The opportunity to express your opinions, freely. The ability to be able "to agree to disagree?"

"Having held these opinions for almost four decades, and having given "years" of thought to them..... the chance of my opinion being changed is virtually non-existent. Yes, you may say that I have a "closed mind" on this issue, and I will agree!

Charlie Black"

Accepted, Charlie. Your opinion, that is. :)

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Charlie,

I can understand your thoughts and feelings regarding Robert Kennedy. Although, I also believe he was a kid at heart and quite possibly tried to over compensatedby being hardnose, arrogant and ruthless at times. I have also never had much use for Ted Kennedy, but some in his state seems to think a lot of him, since he has been a Senator for many years.

I am thinking this might be somewhat unusal, but I have been doing some essays on the past First Ladies. I have done ten, so far, which is on my private website. This has been a curiosity of mine and I am learning things about the past Presidents and their families, that I never knew before. Below, I have added some information in regard to some things I have discovered. Apparently, money, power and prestige affected some Presidents families differently.

First of all, our Fourth President, John Madison married Dolly Madison. She had a son by a previous marriage named John Payne. As John was growing up, they were both much too lenient with him. He was addicted to gambling and was always needing to be bailed out.. But after John Madison died, John Payne lost all he had and caused Dolly to eventually have to sell the Madison Documents and also Montpelier just to pay off debts he had created.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Our Sixth President was John Quincy Adams who married Louisa. John's father was our 2nd Presisdent John Adams and his wife was Abigal. John and Abigal practically raised two of John Quincy and Louisas sons, so they could be educated in the U.S, John Quincy was a Diplomat and he and Louisa were living in Europe. They took their youngest son with them.

Louisa had a most difficuly life being married to John Quincy. Mostly he regarded her as a non-person. Plus John and Abigal also didn't like her, because she was from England and had French schooling and was cultured. She went through much hardship just to be with her husband in his travels. Her years in the Whitehouse were mostly spent in her own quarters in a state of depression. She had both a son and daughter that died when very young which she couldn't seem to get over.

She did play a harp and sang some and entertained when she was able to. She also raised silkworms, which she would collect the silk and wind into yarn for knitting. Yet, she seems to have been a most tragic person, even though she had previously been a lovely, charning young woman. When she saw her First Lady Portrait, she stated that she only looked half alive. Ironically, Pat Nixon chose Louisa's portrait to hang in he White House. Many years later, Louisa's grandson wrote a book about her and how different she could have been if she had not been married to John Quincy Adams.

John Quincy was sarcastic and hated small talk and I believe cut Louisa down constantly. I also believe he was a womanizer, as were his sons. However, after leaving the White House and in later years, John Quincy mellowed out and he did make peace with Louisa. But here is how their three sons turned out.......

George Washington Adams, the oldest son was a brilliant young man who had graduated from Harvard and studied law with Daniel Webster, George was also a rake. He neglected his law practice, ran up huge debts, impregnated and abandoned a young girl, frequently visited prostitutes, had fits of paranoia, suffered hallucinations, used opium, and was suicidal. When his mom (Louisa) found books of pornography in his room, she feared that the young boy looked upon women as mere objects of sexual pleasure. On a steamer bound for New York, George, aged twenty-eight, accused his fellow passengers of plotting against him. The next day he disappeared and his body washed up on shore six weeks later.

The next eldest son, John Adams II, married in the White House on February 25, 1828, which was one of the brightest moments of her time on the White

House. John Adams II, although more stable, had his share of troubles too. He was expelled from Harvard in his senior year for taking part in a student riot. Later, as his father's private secretary, he engaged in a fistfight with an anti-administration journalist in the Capitol Rotunda, causing a special committee to be convened to investigate the assault. Although his opponent was censured, his mother was terribly embarrased. After John Quincy's defeat by Jackson, John Adams II ran a Washington flourmill owned by the family, but his health failed and he died at age thirty-one, suffering from acute alcoholism.

The youngest son, Charles Francis Adams, who lived to become a distinguished diplomat, public servant, and author, shared with his older brothers a common character trait: it seems that all of the Adams men, including John Quincy Adams, were sexually active with prostitutes as young men and read pornographic literature. Louisa Adams criticized all of her sons directly for their willingness to participate in what she termed "loathsome and disgusting pictures of actions . . . that render them . . . unfit for any society but the lowest and most degraded.

__________________________________

Our Eighth President, Martin Van Buren married Hannah. They were married twelve years and had four sons and she died before he ever became President.

This is the description of their sons!

Abraham Van Buren (1807-1873), the eldest, graduated from West Point and served in the army. He resigned from the army in 1837 to serve as secretary to his father during his single term as President. He rejoined the army during the Mexican War, and was promoted for bravery (they gave promotions rather than medals at that time) at the battles of Contreras and Churubusco.

John Van Buren (1810-1866) was a lawyer. He served as secretary of the American legation in London during his father's stint as minister-designate to Great Britain. He was later elected to the U.S. House of Representatives where he emerged as a leading opponent of slavery. He later allied himself with the Barnburner faction of the New York Democratic Party, which opposed all compromise with the South on the issue of slavery.

Martin Van Buren, Jr. (1812-1855) was a student of political science and history. He served as a political aide to his father throughout his career and compiled the information used by the former President in writing his memoirs.

Smith Thompson Van Buren (1817-1876) also served as a political aide to his father. He drafted many of his father's speeches and, as literary executor of his father's estate, edited the Van Buren Papers. He married a niece of Washington Irving.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Just something a little dfferent in regard to Presidential families. One more thought though. It seems a lot of Presidents have a renegade brother, that they would just as soon keep hidden...:-)

**************************************************************

Hey Doo, that's really interesting. I didn't know you were doing profiles on the wives of the presidency.

Sounds like the Adams family were a bunch of drunkards and reprobates. And, poor Louisa! Sounds like J.Q. was a real chauvinistic bastard. Well, what can one expect? Women were considered as nothing more than chattel in those days.

Have you gotten to Mary Todd Lincoln, yet? She was a real piece of work. No wonder old Abe always looked so damned depressed in his pictures.

Keep up the good work, Dix.

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Hi Terry

A great overall reply and I can understand your feelings of Robert during the hearings. I suppose that he could have sounded like a "gallant Knight"

battling ugly dragons.

I do agree with you regarding Mafia participation.

They were certainly not needed and were not controllable, from the true conspirators standpoint.

Just another scapegoat mixed in with both the pro and anti Castro Cubans and lone nut crazed Commies!

Charlie Black

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Hi Terry

A great overall reply and I can understand your feelings of Robert during the hearings. I suppose that he could have sounded like a "gallant Knight" battling ugly dragons.

I do agree with you regarding Mafia participation.

They were certainly not needed and were not controllable, from the true conspirators standpoint.

Just another scapegoat mixed in with both the pro and anti Castro Cubans and lone nut crazed Commies!

Charlie Black

**********************************************************

"I do agree with you regarding Mafia participation.

They were certainly not needed and were not controllable, from the true conspirators standpoint.

Just another scapegoat mixed in with both the pro and anti Castro Cubans and lone nut crazed Commies!"

You got that right, Charlie! And, from what I gather in reading your posts, you know who the real perps are. Just like Myra, and my friend, Steve Gaal, know, and two other pals of mine know, but prefer I didn't go tossing their names around. Follow the cobblestone road... :)

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[quote name='Charles Black' date='Apr 1 2007, 02:46 PM' post='98704']

To all

I feel that Robert's lack of maturity and sound political behavior, coupled with his deplorable manners and arrogant behavior, contributed more to his brother's downfall than any other single

person.....including the trigger pullers.

This is one of the most absurd "blaming the victim" statements I have ever seen on this forum.

Dawn

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Let's see ... The Kennedys were hit because of "lack of maturity, deplorable manners and arrogant behavior" ...

Ladies and gentlemen, the conspirators have been identified!

Miss Manners and Marth Stewart did it!!!

Then they killed Jack and Bobby.

Hey, it makes as much sense as any of this wretched "they got what was coming to them" disinformation.

Charles

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Let's see ... The Kennedys were hit because of "lack of maturity, deplorable manners and arrogant behavior" ...

Ladies and gentlemen, the conspirators have been identified!

Miss Manners and Marth Stewart did it!!!

Then they killed Jack and Bobby.

Hey, it makes as much sense as any of this wretched "they got what was coming to them" disinformation.

Charles

*********************************************************

"Ladies and gentlemen, the conspirators have been identified!"

That's right, Mr. Drago. And, their names are Rockefeller-Morgan, Harriman, McCloy, Bundy, Cabot, and their lap-dog mouth-pieces: the Dulles brothers of Sullivan and Cromwell Associates, and their subsequent followers. Plus, their P.R.-Media mogols: Paley, Sarnoff, Luce, Graham, and John Train, to name a handful. Their regional operatives in Tejas, Miami, D.C., and Mexico: Demohrenschildt, Phillips, Shakely, and Johannides, to name a few. And, don't forget their little team of mechanics, led by E.L. Hunt, which included Liddy, Sturgis, Barker, and their bottom feeders: GPH, Hall, Morgan, Rodriguez, and their hysterical Cuban aristocratic nationals. And, that's just the tip of the iceberg. I haven't even started to mention the Chiefs of Staff at the D.O.D., or the bonafide members of The Birchers, and the other Right- Wing social clubs.

JFK, RFK, and MLK, and all that they stood for pissed, the above names mentioned, off royally. Where else could the collateral for a contract the size of which would be needed to cover up a coup de etat of this magnitude, come from and continue to be financed into perpetuity? Surely, the cities of Midland, Houston, Austin, and Dallas, TX would've been bankrupt within that first decade following the assassinations. Make no mistake when you mention Martha Stewart's name. She, at least, did time for the crime.

Edited by Terry Mauro
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Let's see ... The Kennedys were hit because of "lack of maturity, deplorable manners and arrogant behavior" ...

Ladies and gentlemen, the conspirators have been identified!

Miss Manners and Marth Stewart did it!!!

Then they killed Jack and Bobby.

Hey, it makes as much sense as any of this wretched "they got what was coming to them" disinformation.

Charles

*********************************************************

"Ladies and gentlemen, the conspirators have been identified!"

That's right, Mr. Drago. And, their names are Rockefeller-Morgan, Harriman, McCloy, Bundy, Cabot, and their lap-dog mouth-pieces: the Dulles brothers of Sullivan and Cromwell Associates, and their subsequent followers. Plus, their P.R.-Media mogols:

Make no mistake when you mention Martha Stewart's name. She, at least, did time for the crime.

My Dear Ms. Mauro,

Our respective, non-satirical identifications of prime sponsors and facilitators run along remarkably parallel tracks, and diverge, I suspect, only as they approach more esoteric territory.

Permit me to suggest that satire (as I offered it in my previous post, for example) remains an effective, indeed indispensable weapon in the arsenal of truth seekers.

Charles

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I however firmly believe in my other comments that "I personally feel, quite true".

Not in an attempt to change the views of any of you Robert Kennedy supporters, I felt that his actions before the sub commitee seemed "quite childish" to me....particularly his immature and ridiculous comments to Sam Giancana. I think that his personal behavior may have induced, "more" not less, support for the "bad guys". IMHO, he displayed a childish lack of class.

It was with this performance clearly in mind, that I was more than "shocked" with his appointment as Attorney General. In a great many areas, I feel that "Bobby" and Joe Sr.'s actions had more to do with JFK's assassination than aything that Jack had said or done. I further feel that his often childish "exchanges" with Hoover, and his constant and open critical comments to LBJ went a long way toward being some of the nails in the Presidents coffin.

Even though I personally "despise" Hoover and feel that LBJ was a "long time" criminal, I feel that some of the actions of Bobby, whom I refer to "in the early sixties" as a "ridiculous upstart", went far in broadening the gap between these two powerful figures and the President. Someone should have explained to Bobby, the benefits of properly attempted political manipulation. Actually, were he at all qualified, no one would have needed to. I don't feel that it is proper to show a public lack of respect to figures as powerful and prominent as LBJ and JEH. His bother certainly didn't!

I feel that Bobby had progressed "little" at the time of his confrontations with Hoffa. An arrogant lack of respect should be dispayed by "NO PUBLIC FIGURE" ! An Attorney General should behave in a manner deserving his title .....and not as a schoolboy.

I don't claim to be a psychologist, but my layman's view is that Bobby exhibited many of the characteristics of what I personally, not professionally, term "the litle man syndrome".

I certainly feel that there is good reason for Bobby to have entered a state of deep depression following his brother's murder....and considered, I have read, that he felt his (Bobby's) personal conduct may have had a significant role in the plan to murder his brother. If this is true, it may have been his foremost acknowledgement.

I am helpless to offer any comfort to you "Bobby supporters", when I say that his appointment as Attorney General may have been the greatest single political disaster of JFK's Presidency.

No! I don't feel that he was qualified....it was flagrant nepotism.....and I feel that this action had much to do with the formation of a coalition against a possible "24 year Kennedy Dynasty".

I feel that Robert's lack of maturity and sound political behavior, coupled with his deplorable manners and arrogant behavior, contributed more to his brother's downfall than any other single

person.....including the trigger pullers.

These are my personal feelings only and I am unwilling to engage in a multi paged debate regarding these points. You may each believe what you like.

Having held these opinions for almost four decades,

and having given "years" of thought to them.....

the chance of my opinion being changed is virtually non-existant. Yes, you may say that I have a "closed mind" on this issue, and I will agree !

Charlie Black

Charlie, sadly, I agree with you. I think he definitely had the little man syndrome or the Napoleon syndrome. Bobby Kennedy, as slight as he was, was on the football team at Harvard! Incredible. But that was his toughness and stubborness. Which could also lead toward danger.

Who else should have been John Kennedy's Attorney General?

I still think Bobby would have made a great President in 1968. He had changed and the country was changing. And the powers that be wouldn't have assassinated him if they didn't think he had a good chance of becoming President.

Kathy

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