In Lee Harvey Oswald's Room

[David Von Pein]

Question for Michael Hogan:

How many "Oswald Was Guilty Of Killing Tippit Or Fleeing The Murder Scene With A Gun In Hand Immediately After The Killing" witnesses would it take to make you say: Oswald did it?

15? 20? 25? Or 35 witnesses?

There are about 13 already.

Were ALL 13 witnesses re: Tippit's murder coerced?

That's just not a reasonable thing to believe.

And then when you add in the Doughty/Dhority/Davis bullet shells (not even counting the Poe shells)--then Oswald's guilt is fixed in granite.

Or don't you think Oswald had on him in the theater the V510210 gun that deposited those Doughty/Dhority/Davis shells on 10th St.?

If you believe Oswald had V510210 on him in the theater, you cannot possibly set Oswald free for J.D. Tippit's murder. It's really as simple as that, Michael.

Edited August 21, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

David, I really don't enjoy fencing with you about these things.

Then why are you doing it?

[Michael Hogan]

David, I really don't enjoy fencing with you about these things.

Then why are you doing it?

Same reason I go to the dentist for a root canal. I feel better when it's done.

[David Von Pein]

Me too, Michael.

[Dean Hagerman]

David, I really don't enjoy fencing with you about these things.

Then why are you doing it?

Same reason I go to the dentist for a root canal. I feel better when it's done.

People say im crazy but I love getting a root canal

The pain that I feel when my dentist is pulling the roots out for some reason gives me a rush, its almost euphoric

I dont really know how to explain it

[Michael Hogan]

Question for Michael Hogan:

How many "Oswald Was Guilty Of Killing Tippit Or Fleeing The Murder Scene With A Gun In Hand Immediately After The Killing" witnesses would it take to make you say: Oswald did it?

15? 20? 25? Or 35 witnesses?

There are about 13 already.

Were ALL 13 witnesses re: Tippit's murder coerced?

That's just not a reasonable thing to believe.

And then when you add in the Doughty/Dhority/Davis bullet shells (not even counting the Poe shells)--then Oswald's guilt is fixed in granite.

Or don't you think Oswald had on him in the theater the V510210 gun that deposited those Doughty/Dhority/Davis shells on 10th St.?

If you believe Oswald had V510210 on him in the theater, you cannot possibly set Oswald free for J.D. Tippit's murder. It's really as simple as that, Michael.

David, it may be that simple in your mind. My arguments had nothing to do with the shells, or the theater. I have never indicated whether

I believe Oswald did it or not. There can be no doubt that his lone guilt was being established before it was possible to do so.

So I don't know why you insist on changing the subject.

My post was about whether the lineups were conducted fairly or not. If they weren't your repeated statements about the dozen witnesses that identified Oswald

as Tippit's slayer is much less convincing. Particularly when you mistakenly use it as a tool to prove the veracity of the other evidence - just as you are now using the shells

to try and show that all the eyewitness evidence is unimpeachable.

My post had to do with the selectivity of the evidence you offer, the fairness of the lineups, and the reliability of the testimony of each and every witness - things you keep avoiding.

[Dean Hagerman]

Was Jackie's head in the way of Oswald as he walked down Beckley?

[Bernice Moore]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9482

mary bledsoe thread...b

[Bernice Moore]

shirts;

[Bernice Moore]

bledsoe document;

[Dean Hagerman]

Would you agree that all reasonable people know that Oswald couldn't have killed Tippit, Jim?

Yep I sure do.

1. When you cannot prove that LHO ordered or picked up the weapon

2. Or that he bought the ammo

3. And when the DPD only sent one bullet to the FBi that did not match

4. And when they then took six days to substitute shells that did match

5. When even after that, the shells do not match the bullets

6. And when clearly, witnesses have been manipulated

7. When automatics were initially reported--and it is impossible for a cop to mistake automatic for revolver shells

8. When Hill's "fast frisk" at the theater revealed no bullets, but then three hours later, miraculously, the cops find five bullets on LHO

9. When the best evidence indicates that LHO would have had to traverse 9/10 of a mile in five minutes--which is a physical impossibility

10. When the FBI deliberately tried to confuse Poe before he testified before the WC

11. When the FBI and WC deliberately avoided witnesses who indicated more than one assassin.

12. When someone plants LHO's mockup of a wallet at the scene

13. When LHO's prints are not on the car

14. When David Belin brings a jacket to a witness which he knows is the wrong one to fake a positive ID since he knows the right jacket would not be Oswald's. (Meagher, p. 275) Why? Because most of the witnesses do not recall that killer wearing that jacket Belin was stuck with. (ibid, 274-276)

15. And when the DPD faked three transcripts to get TIppit to the scene

16. When the DPD deliberately delayed the release of the autopsy so they can get their ballistics story straight

17. And when a witness at first does not ID Oswald leaving the scene, but then gets shot and switches his story

18, And when the best witness Benavides won't ID Oswald at the time

19. And when Markham's ID testimony is ridiculous

20. And when Scoggins ID is exposed by the man at the phony line up with him

Well, yep, when all this happens and more, then I tend to not believe the official story.

Let me close with the words of a professional in the field. A man who brings a breath of fresh air to the subject since he tried felony cases for a living in NYC. He did it every day for years. Bob Tanenbaum told me that there are two things that you have to have established in a felony case, or murder case.

1. The chain of possession of your major exhibits has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. If not, the defense will drive holes of doubt into your case and the jury will begin to question parts of it.

2. Your best witnesses have to be solid and they have to tell a similar story. There can be no indications of coaching after the fact.

And the last thing he said was this: You have to have a solid reason for the police getting to the suspect.

This case is an inverse template of those criteria. The defense would be able to drive not a semi, but a fleet of trucks through the chain of possession issue. The witnesses at the scene who are supposed to ID LHO as the killer actually do not. And the rest of them are highly suspect because of the phony line ups the DPD employed.(Meagher, pgs 256-60)

FInally, as Tanenbaum pointed out, he has never been able to find a good reason for a.) Why Tippit was there and b.) Why he pulled over what was supposed to be Oswald.

In the real world, according to a real DA, this case is a loser for the prosecution. Only in a world where you have estate lawyers like David Belin conducting criminal prosecutions, and where there is no cross examination, and where the defense is not allowed to investigate and mount their own case, can you even begin to take the Tippit case against Oswald seriously. In other words when the accused has no rights and is arraigned before a kangaroo court, only then can crap like this get by.

And even then, only with the likes of DVP and McAdams.

I agree with Lee, very strong stuff Jim

Great job, I cant wait to see how DVP dances around your post like a wild indian

Edited August 22, 2010 by Dean Hagerman

[David Von Pein]

Shall we ignore the fact that the reenactment that resulted in 11 minutes wasn't done in one go. That it was stop and start.

Huh?

Sounds like you're implying that the people who did it in 11 minutes were STOPPING along the way to Tenth. (Am I missing something here?)

They STOPPED, then started again...and still made it in 11 minutes? How does that HURT the bottom-line "11 minute" clocking of the journey, Lee?

Please enlighten me. (And I just took a Helen Markham pill...so please go slowly.)

The fact is the trip could be made to 10th St. in about 11 minutes. You, however, like the longer timelines, as all CTers in the ABO clique do. But what you want to be true couldn't possibly matter less. If it can be done in 11 minutes, it can be done in 11 minutes.

-Mark VII-

You can always still pretend Oswald was being impersonated on Tenth Street. The "impersonation" crappola is always a good "fall back" position for Oswald defenders anyway. Right, Lee F.?

Is this a rhetorical question that you're asking?

So what you're saying is that the overall time won't be affected by stopping, giving the guy a break, and then starting the clock again? How long were his breaks? Do Mack and Perry tell us in the reenactment?

What Mack and Perry presented is NOT a reenactment. For it to be a reenactment you would film it continuously and see what condition the guy was in at the end. Jesus Dave, if they timed marathons like this I may consider entering one. Anyone could do it if you keep stopping the clock for a "breather."

I didn't fully understand what you were saying about "stopping & starting" previously.

So, you are now implying that the CLOCK was stopped in the middle of a journey that encompassed a mere 0.85 of a mile?? That's ridiculous.

Why on Earth would anyone who wasn't in an iron lung need to stop and take a break on such a short trip? Where on Earth did you get such a silly idea? Who told you the 11-minute trip included BREAKS (plural?!); he needed more than ONE break on his across-the-desert trip of a whopping 0.85 of a mile, is that what you're saying? That's stupid. It's utter nonsense. It never happened.

I'll admit its a short journey but you're the one who has to have him walking it as quick as is humanly possible. Once again, why (as in the GM/DP [Gary Mack/Dave Perry] "reenactment") would Oswald be walking so fast? Because you need him to?

And I wouldn't trust Gary Mack or Dave Perry as far as I could throw my own head. So their so-called "reenactment" is certainly not something I'd use to prove or disprove anything. Was Jackie's head in the way of Oswald as he walked down Beckley?

Date: 8/21/2010 3:16:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time

From: Gary Mack

To: David Von Pein

-----------------------

FYI.....

Lee [Farley],

You've been misinformed (or you weren't paying attention if you actually watched the show). The re-creation of Oswald's route to the Tippit scene Dave and I did WAS done continuously but not filmed that way. Dave and I rode in front of "Oswald" in a golf cart and the cameraman raced from point to point.

The entire walk was timed without any stops or slowdowns, and the total time was the same as what several other conspiracy researchers have found over the years. The shortest route gave Oswald plenty of time, whereas the longest route was too long. The other one or two routes would have resulted in intermediate times.

If you doubt me, walk it yourself or ask someone else to do it!

Gary Mack

[Michael Hogan]

I also think it's quite possible that Oswald just simply forgot his revolver when he left for work on Thursday, the 21st. His plan to murder JFK was, indeed, slipshod and half-assed in some ways. And it certainly reeks of being "last minute" (or nearly so, relatively-speaking).

But, hey, it's hard to argue with success, isn't it? He achieved his primary goal of killing the President, despite a slipshod getaway plan.

Former Dallas Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander told Anthony Summers:

"One of the questions that I would like answered is why Oswald was where he was when he shot Tippit.

I would like to know how much farther to the south and east he had been....

I feel like if we could ever find out for sure why he was there, then maybe some of the other mysteries

would be solved. For instance, was he supposed to meet someone? Was he trying to make a getaway?

Did he miss a connection? Was there a connection?

If you look at Oswald's behavior he made very few non-purposeful motions, very seldom did he do

anything that did not serve a purpose for him. People who have studied his behavior feel there

was a purpose in his being where he was. And I for one would like to know what that was."

from With Malice, Page 358

[John Dolva]

Basically, David, nothing you have presented is counter conspiracy. I'm with Kathy, Dean and others that see Oswald as part of a conspiracy. I think the real issue is what form that took.

[David Von Pein]

Jim "Anybody But Oz" DiEugenio will, as usual, ignore the tests that have been done that PROVE that the "timelines" for various things that Lee Oswald is alleged to have done are DOABLE. They CAN be done....and the Beckley-to-Tenth trip is one of those DOABLE treks.

I'll bet Jim DiEugenio still believes that it was impossible for Oswald to have gone from the sixth floor's Sniper's Nest to the second-floor lunchroom in less than 90 seconds too. Right, Jim?

That journey from the 6th to the 2nd floor, of course, was re-created in 74 seconds by the SS for the WC. But that FACT never stops the conspiracy nuts from bellowing "It can't be done!"

Pathetic.

And Jim's attempt to discredit Gary Mack's test to Tenth St. is pathetic as well. But, as usual, it's always open season on Mack at a JFK forum. Par for the CT Monger course.

Edited August 22, 2010 by David Von Pein