There Was No Bullet Wound in John F. Kennedy's Throat

[Tim Gratz]

Pat, maybe it was Greer who stabbed him. We know he did not SHOOT him. (Paul would be pleased.)

Of course I am skeptical as well. Didn't Jackie stay with JFK (or his body if you will) at all times? Like you, I await Mr. Gray's theory,

As you know, I like your scenario re the bullet trajectory which I think answers a lot of questions. It makes sense that if a bullet entered at a downward angle near the EOP it might well have exited the throat. Tom's theory has some logic as well but does not explain JC's wounds.

What do you know about holes in the tie?

Edited October 24, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Charles Drago]

Were toxicology screens part of JFK's autopsy?

If so, were the results released?

If not, why not?

Charles

[Michael Hogan]

Were toxicology screens part of JFK's autopsy? If so, were the results released?

If not, why not?

Maybe because as Harold Weisberg termed it, President Kennedy's autopsy was "unworthy of a Bowery bum."

(Whitewash 1966, page 110)

[Mark Stapleton]

I'm suggesting the possibility that a device similar to the piercing needle I pictured above could have been employed, and in very short order indeed. I am suggesting that if some similar device had been used—either during the removal of the clothing, or even before it was removed, by sliding such a device between the shirt plackets under the tie—it would have produced a wound consistent with descriptions by all eyewitnesses.

I believe that if such a device had in fact been used, it most likely would have been employed to administer a large quantity of some kind of toxin that would have been completely unsuspected, yet known to be fatal, and for which there was no existing test for detection in a human.

You could be right. Having a backup contingency like this is logical because the planners could not be certain that a kill shot would be made.

Assuming toxin was administered, then the SS would be my chief suspect.

Possibly. In the realm of speculative thinking, I don't know how any such backup contingency could have been in place, though, no matter who was designated to administer a toxin, absent the certainty of almost immediate irradication of the puncture wound evidence by electively-placed tracheostomy—something that could not be accomplished by any Secret Service personnel.

On the subject of toxins, though, I have these pesky timeline entries that I've been needing to do something with, so I think I'll put them here. This first one has a personal note from me italicized, and I have added some bold emphasis:

Friday, 3 August 1962

Louis Jolyon West, of the Depatment of Psychiatry, Neurology, and Behavioral Sciences, University of Oklahoma School of Medicine, shoots an elephant named Tusko, at the Lincoln Park Zoo in Oklahoma City, with a massive dose of LSD, equivalent to approximately 0.1 milligrams per killogram of weight.

[For what reason, nobody ever has been able to make the slightest sense of. —A.G.]

After about three minutes

of trumpeting and running around the pen,

the elephant collapsed

"heavily onto his right side, defecated, and went into status epilepticus. The limbs on the left side were hyperextended and held stiffly out from the body; the limbs on the right side were drawn up in partial flexion; there were tremors throughout. The eyes were closed and showed a spasm of the orbicularis occuli; the eyeballs were turned sharply to the left, with markedly dilated pupils. The mouth was open, but

breathing was extremely labored and stertorous, giving the impression of high respiratory obstruction due to laryngeal spasm.

The tongue, which had been bitten, was cyanotic. The picture was that of a tonic left-sided seizure in which mild clonic movements were present."

Within one hour and 40 minutes of the LSD injectin, Tusko was dead.

I'll point out in passing that this bizarre and murderous test by CIA's favorite lunatic psychiatrist was only a year and three months before the Kennedy assassination. (I probably shouldn't even mention in passing here that dear old "Jolly" West also later turns up connected to CIA's Remote Viewing program, which of course is heavily connected with Watergate, as anyone who has wandered through recent posts in the Watergate forum well knows, but it seems as though I did just mention it in passing anyway.)

Then, just a few months later, there is this equally bizarre event that took place on the first day of the year that Kennedy was assassinated, half a world away:

Tuesday, 1 January 1963

Dr Gilbert Stanley Bogle and his lover Mrs Margaret Olive Chandler née Morphett—each married to other people, and both employees of the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO)—are found murdered in mysterious circumstances on the banks of the Lane Cove River in Sydney, Australia. There is no apparent cause of death. Their murder has never been solved, nor has the cause of death ever been determined with certainty. [NOTE: In 1989 heart tissues from both Bogle and Chandler had been preserved and new forensic techniques were applied to them. These techniques gave evidence of the presence of LSD. These techniques were not claimed as conclusive, but they were presented as evidence that Bogle and Chandler had used LSD and some authorities suggested that they died of an overdose.]

There is a great deal of controversy-without-evidence concerning whether LSD can be fatal or not. Then again, no human volunteers have been found to try a dosage equal in ratio to the hit that sent Tusko on his one-way trip into psychedelia.

In any case, according to my best information there was no test for LSD in 1963.

Ashton

Interesting. I was unaware that traces of LSD could be detected in human tissue because I read some time ago that the active component of the drug actually exits the body via the pores of the skin before the celebrated hallucinagenic effects begin to occur--which led doctors to speculate that the drug itself is just a trigger which releases a chemical stored within the brain, similar to the way adrenaline is released into the bloodstream by external triggers. I don't know if a high dose of LSD would kill a person--I've never heard of a fatal overdose of this drug, although it would probably induce permanent psychosis. But I'm sorry to hear about poor Tusko.

I still find your scenario to be a plausible one, although I maintain that if a toxin was administerd in the way you describe, the SS, who were in control of the body from DP to Parkland, heads the list of likely suspects. What if the toxin was administered by the SS in the minute or so before JFK was wheeled into the Trauma Room and the doctors were persuaded by the wound (looking similar to a bullet entry wound) to perform the tracheotomy? Perhaps someone in the SS made the suggestion to the doctors. It's ripe for speculation but you passed the biggest hurdle--it's not impossible or implausible. The SBT is.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Mark Stapleton

[Ashton Gray]

I'm suggesting the possibility that a device similar to the piercing needle I pictured above could have been employed, and in very short order indeed. I am suggesting that if some similar device had been used—either during the removal of the clothing, or even before it was removed, by sliding such a device between the shirt plackets under the tie—it would have produced a wound consistent with descriptions by all eyewitnesses.

I believe that if such a device had in fact been used, it most likely would have been employed to administer a large quantity of some kind of toxin that would have been completely unsuspected, yet known to be fatal, and for which there was no existing test for detection in a human.

You could be right. Having a backup contingency like this is logical because the planners could not be certain that a kill shot would be made.

Assuming toxin was administered, then the SS would be my chief suspect.

Possibly. In the realm of speculative thinking, I don't know how any such backup contingency could have been in place, though, no matter who was designated to administer a toxin, absent the certainty of almost immediate irradication of the puncture wound evidence by electively-placed tracheostomy—something that could not be accomplished by any Secret Service personnel.

On the subject of toxins, though, I have these pesky timeline entries that I've been needing to do something with, so I think I'll put them here. This first one has a personal note from me italicized, and I have added some bold emphasis:

Friday, 3 August 1962

Louis Jolyon West, of the Depatment of Psychiatry, Neurology, and Behavioral Sciences, University of Oklahoma School of Medicine, shoots an elephant named Tusko, at the Lincoln Park Zoo in Oklahoma City, with a massive dose of LSD, equivalent to approximately 0.1 milligrams per killogram of weight.

[For what reason, nobody ever has been able to make the slightest sense of. —A.G.]

After about three minutes

of trumpeting and running around the pen,

the elephant collapsed

"heavily onto his right side, defecated, and went into status epilepticus. The limbs on the left side were hyperextended and held stiffly out from the body; the limbs on the right side were drawn up in partial flexion; there were tremors throughout. The eyes were closed and showed a spasm of the orbicularis occuli; the eyeballs were turned sharply to the left, with markedly dilated pupils. The mouth was open, but

breathing was extremely labored and stertorous, giving the impression of high respiratory obstruction due to laryngeal spasm.

The tongue, which had been bitten, was cyanotic. The picture was that of a tonic left-sided seizure in which mild clonic movements were present."

Within one hour and 40 minutes of the LSD injectin, Tusko was dead.

I'll point out in passing that this bizarre and murderous test by CIA's favorite lunatic psychiatrist was only a year and three months before the Kennedy assassination. (I probably shouldn't even mention in passing here that dear old "Jolly" West also later turns up connected to CIA's Remote Viewing program, which of course is heavily connected with Watergate, as anyone who has wandered through recent posts in the Watergate forum well knows, but it seems as though I did just mention it in passing anyway.)

Then, just a few months later, there is this equally bizarre event that took place on the first day of the year that Kennedy was assassinated, half a world away:

Tuesday, 1 January 1963

Dr Gilbert Stanley Bogle and his lover Mrs Margaret Olive Chandler née Morphett—each married to other people, and both employees of the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO)—are found murdered in mysterious circumstances on the banks of the Lane Cove River in Sydney, Australia. There is no apparent cause of death. Their murder has never been solved, nor has the cause of death ever been determined with certainty. [NOTE: In 1989 heart tissues from both Bogle and Chandler had been preserved and new forensic techniques were applied to them. These techniques gave evidence of the presence of LSD. These techniques were not claimed as conclusive, but they were presented as evidence that Bogle and Chandler had used LSD and some authorities suggested that they died of an overdose.]

There is a great deal of controversy-without-evidence concerning whether LSD can be fatal or not. Then again, no human volunteers have been found to try a dosage equal in ratio to the hit that sent Tusko on his one-way trip into psychedelia.

In any case, according to my best information there was no test for LSD in 1963.

Ashton

Interesting. I was unaware that traces of LSD could be detected in human tissue because I read some time ago that the active component of the drug actually exits the body via the pores of the skin before the celebrated hallucinagenic effects begin to occur--which led doctors to speculate that the drug itself is just a trigger which releases a chemical stored within the brain, similar to the way adrenaline is released into the bloodstream by external triggers.

I can't claim any expert knowledge, but one test for ergot alkaloids that's been around for some time is the Van Urk test, which is discussed, e.g., in an article on Forensic Toxicology as a test for LSD. I can't so far determine when it began being used for LSD. It seems that there's a more recent test with the acronym ELISA (Enzyme-Linked Immunosorbant Assay). This is really as far as I've taken pursuit of this question so far.

I don't know if a high dose of LSD would kill a person--I've never heard of a fatal overdose of this drug, although it would probably induce permanent psychosis. But I'm sorry to hear about poor Tusko.

As I acknowledged, nobody's stepped up to volunteer to take the human equivalent of the Tusko dose, but apparently the lethal toxicity level of LSD has been determined to vary significantly amongst mammals, and there are "predictions" of a lethal dose for humans.

Clinical Management of Poisoning and Drug Overdose says on page 459 regarding lethal doses of LSD:

"LD50

[lethal dose in 50% of those who ingest this much]

determinations vary widely with species, begin 46 mg/kg in mice, 16.5 mg/kg in rats, 0.3 mg/kg in rabbits and 0.1 mg/kg in elephants. In monkeys, the LD100 is 5 mg/kg. Death in these animals is the result of respiratory failure, preceded in the rabbit by marked hyperthermia. Human data are manifestly lacking, and predictions of the average lethal dose for humans have ranged from 0.2 mg/kg to more than 1 mg/kg, administered orally."

There is at least one death upon which there seems to be a consensus that it was caused by LSD. The Psychedelics Encyclopedia says on page 70:

"In the only case of death reportedly caused by overdose

(Journal of the Kentucky Medical Association)

, the quantity of LSD in the blood indicated that 320,000 ug had been injected intravenously."

None of this is said here to exclude any other possible toxin. But the eerie case of Tusko, conducted by an infamous CIA psych, and its timing in relation to the assassination is something I find a bit difficult to shake off—particularly given CIA's love affair with and use of LSD reaching all the way back to 1950 and Project Bluebird, continued through Project Artichoke and MK/ULTRA, including the death of CIA's own Frank Olsen and the atrocities of George Hunter White.

That the equally bizarre unsolved murders of Bogle and Chandler occured between the Tusko experiment and the Kennedy assassination, later to have LSD suspected as the agent of those murders, caused me to feel that it deserved mention.

I still find your scenario to be a plausible one, although I maintain that if a toxin was administerd in the way you describe, the SS, who were in control of the body from DP to Parkland, heads the list of likely suspects.

After an incalculable number of hours (not all my own) in study and analysis of the testimony of people present at Parkland, including an heroic effort (not my own) to timeline what is perhaps the most confused half-hour in the history of time itself, my own evaluation of the admittedly incomplete results is that more than a few people had reasonable opportunity to surreptitiously insert such a device as has been discussed in this thread into the throat of John F. Kennedy, and I'll acknowledge that that cannot exclude at least a few of the Secret Service agents.

That said, I believe a full treatment of the question of opportunity likely is going to require its own thread, and I am not prepared at the moment to launch into an exhaustive analysis of the extraordinarily conflicting and contradictory testimony that is relevant. I will, though, mention just a few points here that I believe bear mention:

1. Kennedy's head, throat, and upper torso were covered by his suit coat while he was being wheeled into Parkland, down the corridor, and into Trauma Room One.
   
2. Nurse Diana Bowron, who was one of the personnel wheeling the cart, lied about the throat wound, claiming under oath in Warren Commission testimony that she never saw it until after Kennedy had been pronounced dead (when, of course, it had been obliterated by the tracheostomy), but claiming in a written statement and in an interview with Harrison Livingstone that she saw the throat wound while Kennedy was still in the car (even though he still had on his shirt and tie in the car).
   
3. Nurse Diana Bowron was involved in removing Kennedy's shirt and tie inside Trauma Room One.
   
4. John F. Kennedy's personal physician, Admiral Burkley, was inside Trauma Room One when Malcolm Perry arrived, meaning Burkley was there and had examined Kennedy before the tracheostomy was started by Perry.
   
5. Admiral Burkley supplied the cortisteroids (hydrocortisone—specifically Sol U Cortef a.k.a. Solu Cortef) to be administered intravenously, telling the doctors that Kennedy had Addison's disease.
   
6. Both Dr. Malcolm Perry—who destroyed all evidence of the throat wound—and Dr. Ronald Coy Jones lied about the source of the hydrocortisone, about the source of the information concerning the reason for its introduction, and about who determined that it should be administered, claiming it was Carrico's idea based on "general knowledge" that Kennedy had Addison's, when in fact the information and the Solu Cortef had been supplied in Trauma Room One by Burkley.
   
7. Admiral Burkley supervised the autopsy.
   

To read the Warren Commission testimony, and almost all subsequent testimony by relevant personnel, Burkley is "The Invisible Man" in Trauma Room One. He's hardly mentioned at all, and at times described only as an anonymous "gentleman" with Jackie. The lies about the hydrocortisone seem to have no other purpose but the dual one of masking Burkley's presence in Trauma Room One as much as possible, and, even given any realization of his presence, to introduce as much confusion as possible about the time frame of his having been there.

But he was there before the tracheostomy.

What if the toxin was administered by the SS in the minute or so before JFK was wheeled into the Trauma Room and the doctors were persuaded by the wound (looking similar to a bullet entry wound) to perform the tracheotomy? Perhaps someone in the SS made the suggestion to the doctors.

Without discounting any opportunities that any of the Secret Service agents might have had, there is no evidence I can find that any of them were still in Trauma Room One when Kennedy's shirt and tie came off, or that any of them even claim ever to have seen the throat wound. As far as I can determine at the moment—and I do not suggest by any means that this is conclusive—Kellerman was the last SS agent in Trauma Room One, and he testified that the last time he saw Kennedy before leaving the room, Kennedy's shirt and tie were still on:

SENATOR COOPER:

You are saying this, then, that you did not see, yourself, at any time the mark of any wound in his neck front?

MR. KELLERMAN:

When we took him into the hospital in Dallas; that is right. ...I did not. ...I didn't see it, sir.

SENATOR COOPER:

What you saw yourself?

MR. KELLERMAN:

No; I didn't. ...While he lay on the stretcher in that emergency room his collar and everything is up and I saw nothing in his face to indicate an injury, whether the shot had come through or not. He was clear.

REPRESENTATIVE FORD:

But while he was on the stretcher in the emergency room you saw his face?

MR. KELLERMAN:

That is right.

REPRESENTATIVE FORD:

But he had his tie and his collar still—

MR. KELLERMAN:

Still on.

REPRESENTATIVE FORD:

Still on?

MR. KELLERMAN:

Yes, sir.

REPRESENTATIVE FORD:

You never saw his neck?

MR. KELLERMAN:

No, sir.

...

MR. SPECTER:

Did you observe any blood on the portion of his body in the neck area or anyplace in the front of his body?

MR. KELLERMAN:

I don't recall any.

MR. SPECTER:

Did you observe any hole in the clothing of the President on the front part, in the shirt or tie area?

MR. KELLERMAN:

No, sir.

Malcolm Perry became the doctor in charge as soon as he arrived, and it was Perry's decision in his sole discretion to perform the unusually large tracheostomy directly through the throat wound, which electively-placed slice very thoroughly destroyed the evidence of the throat wound. I believe you'll find the record is consistent on this point.

Ashton

Edited October 25, 2007 by Ashton Gray

[Ashton Gray]

Mark, in the list I posted, in my last post above, of items I thought were worth mentioning relevant to this thread, I omitted some important points. Forgive the oversight, but I think, and hope, you understand there is a great deal of data to sift and categorize, and some of it emerges and takes on proper relationship only after it has been compared to and correlated with other data from many diverse sources.

I'd like to correct the oversight now by amending and extending the list I posted before and adding a bit of discussion to it:

1. Kennedy's head, throat, and upper torso were covered by his suit coat while he was being wheeled into Parkland, down the corridor, and into Trauma Room One.
   
2. Nurse Diana Bowron, who was one of the personnel wheeling the cart, lied about the throat wound, claiming under oath in Warren Commission testimony that she never saw it until after Kennedy had been pronounced dead (when, of course, it had been obliterated by the tracheostomy), but claiming in a written statement and in an interview with Harrison Livingstone that she saw the throat wound while Kennedy was still in the car (even though he still had on his shirt and tie in the car).
   
3. Nurse Diana Bowron was involved in removing Kennedy's shirt and tie inside Trauma Room One.
   
4. John F. Kennedy's personal physician, Admiral Burkley, was inside Trauma Room One when Malcolm Perry arrived, meaning Burkley was there and had examined Kennedy before the tracheostomy was started by Perry.
   
5. Prior to and during the tracheostomy, while Burkley was present in the small Trauma Room One, there was a not insignificant amount of discussion amongst the doctors present about the throat wound.
   
6. Admiral Burkley supplied the cortisteroids (hydrocortisone—specifically Sol U Cortef a.k.a. Solu Cortef) to be administered intravenously, telling the doctors that Kennedy had Addison's disease.
   
7. Both Dr. Malcolm Perry—who destroyed all evidence of the throat wound—and Dr. Ronald Coy Jones lied about the source of the hydrocortisone, about the source of the information concerning the reason for its introduction, and about who determined that it should be administered, claiming it was Carrico's idea based on "general knowledge" that Kennedy had Addison's, when in fact the information and the Solu Cortef had been supplied in Trauma Room One by Burkley.
   
8. Almost immediately after destroying the evidence of the throat wound, Malcolm Perry participated in a press conference in which he first planted the idea in the public mind that the throat wound was made by a bullet fired from the front.
   
9. Admiral Burkley supervised the autopsy.
   
10. Admiral Burkley, in supervising the autopsy, did not apprise any of the autopsy personnel of the throat wound that had been sliced through by Malcolm Perry, leaving the autopsy personnel with the impression throughout the autopsy that the damage to the throat was solely attributable to the tracheostomy.
    
11. In stark contrast to the claims by Malcolm Perry and Ronald Coy Jones regarding the hydrocortisone having been administered as a result of "common knowledge" about Kennedy having Addison's disease—a deficiency of the adrenal glands—Burkley, in supervising the autopsy, issued express orders not to include the adrenals in the autopsy, supposedly because of sensitivity for the family, to keep the issue of Kennedy's adrenal condition out of the press and public knowledge.
    

It's clear that Admiral Burkley knew full well of the throat wound, and of it having been destroyed by Perry, which means that Burkley willfully withheld this information throughout the autopsy that he supervised.

It is quite an irony that Burkley's own insistence on keeping the adrenals out of the autopsy completely proves the lie told by Malcolm Perry and Ronald Coy Jones about the hydrocortisone in order to obfuscate Burkley's presence in Trauma Room One at significantly relevant times prior to the tracheostomy.

A question I have not had time even to inquire into is what the adrenals in autopsy might have told about any possible toxicity.

Ashton

[Ashton Gray]

Just as an aside, I'm finding the sudden flood of the forum with red herrings of great and entertaining interest in relation to this thread.

Ashton

Edited October 25, 2007 by Ashton Gray

[Chuck Robbins]

Just as an aside, I'm finding the sudden flood of the forum with red herrings of great and entertaining interest in relation to this thread.

Ashton

Why is it so difficult for some folks to grasp such a simple concept?

Reading many of the responses, it is clear that some effort is being made to steer discussion away from the topic.

You are certainly ruffling someone's feathers Ashton.

[Mark Stapleton]

Mark, in the list I posted, in my last post above, of items I thought were worth mentioning relevant to this thread, I omitted some important points. Forgive the oversight, but I think, and hope, you understand there is a great deal of data to sift and categorize, and some of it emerges and takes on proper relationship only after it has been compared to and correlated with other data from many diverse sources.

I'd like to correct the oversight now by amending and extending the list I posted before and adding a bit of discussion to it:

1. Kennedy's head, throat, and upper torso were covered by his suit coat while he was being wheeled into Parkland, down the corridor, and into Trauma Room One.
   
2. Nurse Diana Bowron, who was one of the personnel wheeling the cart, lied about the throat wound, claiming under oath in Warren Commission testimony that she never saw it until after Kennedy had been pronounced dead (when, of course, it had been obliterated by the tracheostomy), but claiming in a written statement and in an interview with Harrison Livingstone that she saw the throat wound while Kennedy was still in the car (even though he still had on his shirt and tie in the car).
   
3. Nurse Diana Bowron was involved in removing Kennedy's shirt and tie inside Trauma Room One.
   
4. John F. Kennedy's personal physician, Admiral Burkley, was inside Trauma Room One when Malcolm Perry arrived, meaning Burkley was there and had examined Kennedy before the tracheostomy was started by Perry.
   
5. Prior to and during the tracheostomy, while Burkley was present in the small Trauma Room One, there was a not insignificant amount of discussion amongst the doctors present about the throat wound.
   
6. Admiral Burkley supplied the cortisteroids (hydrocortisone—specifically Sol U Cortef a.k.a. Solu Cortef) to be administered intravenously, telling the doctors that Kennedy had Addison's disease.
   
7. Both Dr. Malcolm Perry—who destroyed all evidence of the throat wound—and Dr. Ronald Coy Jones lied about the source of the hydrocortisone, about the source of the information concerning the reason for its introduction, and about who determined that it should be administered, claiming it was Carrico's idea based on "general knowledge" that Kennedy had Addison's, when in fact the information and the Solu Cortef had been supplied in Trauma Room One by Burkley.
   
8. Almost immediately after destroying the evidence of the throat wound, Malcolm Perry participated in a press conference in which he first planted the idea in the public mind that the throat wound was made by a bullet fired from the front.
   
9. Admiral Burkley supervised the autopsy.
   
10. Admiral Burkley, in supervising the autopsy, did not apprise any of the autopsy personnel of the throat wound that had been sliced through by Malcolm Perry, leaving the autopsy personnel with the impression throughout the autopsy that the damage to the throat was solely attributable to the tracheostomy.
    
11. In stark contrast to the claims by Malcolm Perry and Ronald Coy Jones regarding the hydrocortisone having been administered as a result of "common knowledge" about Kennedy having Addison's disease—a deficiency of the adrenal glands—Burkley, in supervising the autopsy, issued express orders not to include the adrenals in the autopsy, supposedly because of sensitivity for the family, to keep the issue of Kennedy's adrenal condition out of the press and public knowledge.
    

It's clear that Admiral Burkley knew full well of the throat wound, and of it having been destroyed by Perry, which means that Burkley willfully withheld this information throughout the autopsy that he supervised.

It is quite an irony that Burkley's own insistence on keeping the adrenals out of the autopsy completely proves the lie told by Malcolm Perry and Ronald Coy Jones about the hydrocortisone in order to obfuscate Burkley's presence in Trauma Room One at significantly relevant times prior to the tracheostomy.

A question I have not had time even to inquire into is what the adrenals in autopsy might have told about any possible toxicity.

Ashton

Ashton, that's an interesting (revised) list of items you posted. Why would Nurse Bowron give conflicting accounts of what she saw? And Burkley's actions concerning the throat wound would seem to indicate a desire to conceal the real nature of the that wound.

Could Admiral Burkley be implicated? Personal doctor for three Presidents. How does that square with his attempts to inform the HSCA that he had information which indicated Oswald did not act alone?

Burkley was also a link in the chain of possession concerning JFK's much discussed missing brain--or what was left of it. I'd like to know what the elder statesmen of the research community (no disrespect intended) think of this argument. Minus personal invective.

[Ashton Gray]

Just as an aside, I'm finding the sudden flood of the forum with red herrings of great and entertaining interest in relation to this thread.

Ashton

Why is it so difficult for some folks to grasp such a simple concept?

Reading many of the responses, it is clear that some effort is being made to steer discussion away from the topic.

You are certainly ruffling someone's feathers Ashton.

And birds of a feather ruffle together.

Ashton

[Jack White]

I agree with Ashton's MAJOR PREMISE (no bullet through necktie knot).

I disagree with his MINOR PREMISES (medical personnel in Dallas were among conspirators

and altered wounds).

Jack

[Ashton Gray]

Mark, in the list I posted, in my last post above, of items I thought were worth mentioning relevant to this thread, I omitted some important points. Forgive the oversight, but I think, and hope, you understand there is a great deal of data to sift and categorize, and some of it emerges and takes on proper relationship only after it has been compared to and correlated with other data from many diverse sources.

I'd like to correct the oversight now by amending and extending the list I posted before and adding a bit of discussion to it:

1. Kennedy's head, throat, and upper torso were covered by his suit coat while he was being wheeled into Parkland, down the corridor, and into Trauma Room One.
   
2. Nurse Diana Bowron, who was one of the personnel wheeling the cart, lied about the throat wound, claiming under oath in Warren Commission testimony that she never saw it until after Kennedy had been pronounced dead (when, of course, it had been obliterated by the tracheostomy), but claiming in a written statement and in an interview with Harrison Livingstone that she saw the throat wound while Kennedy was still in the car (even though he still had on his shirt and tie in the car).
   
3. Nurse Diana Bowron was involved in removing Kennedy's shirt and tie inside Trauma Room One.
   
4. John F. Kennedy's personal physician, Admiral Burkley, was inside Trauma Room One when Malcolm Perry arrived, meaning Burkley was there and had examined Kennedy before the tracheostomy was started by Perry.
   
5. Prior to and during the tracheostomy, while Burkley was present in the small Trauma Room One, there was a not insignificant amount of discussion amongst the doctors present about the throat wound.
   
6. Admiral Burkley supplied the cortisteroids (hydrocortisone—specifically Sol U Cortef a.k.a. Solu Cortef) to be administered intravenously, telling the doctors that Kennedy had Addison's disease.
   
7. Both Dr. Malcolm Perry—who destroyed all evidence of the throat wound—and Dr. Ronald Coy Jones lied about the source of the hydrocortisone, about the source of the information concerning the reason for its introduction, and about who determined that it should be administered, claiming it was Carrico's idea based on "general knowledge" that Kennedy had Addison's, when in fact the information and the Solu Cortef had been supplied in Trauma Room One by Burkley.
   
8. Almost immediately after destroying the evidence of the throat wound, Malcolm Perry participated in a press conference in which he first planted the idea in the public mind that the throat wound was made by a bullet fired from the front.
   
9. Admiral Burkley supervised the autopsy.
   
10. Admiral Burkley, in supervising the autopsy, did not apprise any of the autopsy personnel of the throat wound that had been sliced through by Malcolm Perry, leaving the autopsy personnel with the impression throughout the autopsy that the damage to the throat was solely attributable to the tracheostomy.
    
11. In stark contrast to the claims by Malcolm Perry and Ronald Coy Jones regarding the hydrocortisone having been administered as a result of "common knowledge" about Kennedy having Addison's disease—a deficiency of the adrenal glands—Burkley, in supervising the autopsy, issued express orders not to include the adrenals in the autopsy, supposedly because of sensitivity for the family, to keep the issue of Kennedy's adrenal condition out of the press and public knowledge.
    

It's clear that Admiral Burkley knew full well of the throat wound, and of it having been destroyed by Perry, which means that Burkley willfully withheld this information throughout the autopsy that he supervised.

It is quite an irony that Burkley's own insistence on keeping the adrenals out of the autopsy completely proves the lie told by Malcolm Perry and Ronald Coy Jones about the hydrocortisone in order to obfuscate Burkley's presence in Trauma Room One at significantly relevant times prior to the tracheostomy.

A question I have not had time even to inquire into is what the adrenals in autopsy might have told about any possible toxicity.

Ashton

Ashton, that's an interesting (revised) list of items you posted. Why would Nurse Bowron give conflicting accounts of what she saw?

One lesson I've finally learned in life—and I do mean the hard way—is not to try to comprehend the incomprehensible. Of course there is no rational reason why anyone at all would tell a material lie about the most infamous murder in centuries, so I won't be so foolish as to attempt to posit any "reason" for her having lied that clutches at rationality. I will, though, say what I feel rationally can be said about the fact of a lie having been told:

1. Bowron unquestionably lied about having seen the alleged "bullet wound" in Kennedy's throat while he was still in the limo and she was there to get him out of the limo. See, e.g., Kellerman's testimony above about no throat wound being visible with the shirt and tie still on.
   
2. Bowron likely lied also about not having seen the puncture wound in Kennedy's throat while in Trauma Room One after his shirt and tie were removed, which removal she helped with according to her own and others' testimony. Dr. Carrico, ostensibly the first Parkland doctor on the scene (omitting, for the moment, consideration of whether Burkley was already there in Trauma Room One when Carrico arrived), testified: "We opened his shirt and coat and tie and observed a small wound in the anterior lower third of the neck... ."
   
3. If Bowron did, in fact, see the wound in Trauma Room One, and had any knowledge that it was not a bullet wound, she would be complicit, which very well could account for her later having lied about seeing the wound in the limo in order to reinforce the lie that it was a bullet wound.
   
4. If, on the other hand, Bowron told the truth when she said she did not see the throat wound in Trauma Room One, even though she was involved in removing the shirt and tie, then the only possible conclusion is that the wound was administered during some instant after the shirt and tie were removed, but before Perry arrived and sliced through the wound.
   

And Burkley's actions concerning the throat wound would seem to indicate a desire to conceal the real nature of the that wound.

I don't know how else they could be interpreted. It is impossible for Burkley to have been ignorant of the throat wound. It is impossible for Burkley to have been ignorant of the tracheostomy. Burkley supervised the autopsy at Bethesda, and withheld the fact of the throat wound throughout the entire procedure.

But then it gets even stranger: Hume, who performed the autopsy, later called Perry purportedly to ask Perry if a tracheostomy had been done, and only then learned, from Perry, that the tracheostomy incision had been placed directly through a small round wound. Now, it really takes a great deal of furrowed-brow thought to think through the enormous number of utterly raving illogics in that single sentence:

1. Hume had performed the autopsy at Bethesda, Maryland, under Burkley's supervision, without any confirmed knowledge that a tracheostomy had been done at Parkland, even though Burkley had been in Trauma Room One at Parkland before and throughout the tracheostomy.
   
2. Hume—who was in Bethesda, Maryland, with Burkley there—had to call Perry in Dallas the next morning (Saturday morning) even to get confirmed his assumption that a tracheostomy had been done.
   
3. Only during the call by Hume to Perry, supposedly to "confirm" the obvious—that a tracheostomy had been done, which Burkley could have told Hume without the call to Perry—did Hume purportedly learn from Perry of the prior existence of a wound in the throat that had been destroyed by the tracheostomy.
   

It just is to make one's head spin around on the shoulders like a draydl. Burkley could have told Hume about both the throat wound and the tracheostomy, but did not tell Hume about either. And who is at the center of this absolutely spinning madness? Burkley and Perry. Burkley and Perry. Burkley and Perry. And a throat wound that could not have been caused by any projectile going in any direction.

Could Admiral Burkley be implicated?

Oh, perish the thought.

How does that square with his attempts to inform the HSCA that he had information which indicated Oswald did not act alone?

Yeah? Where is it? See my sig.

Burkley was also a link in the chain of possession concerning JFK's much discussed missing brain--or what was left of it.

Wasn't he, though.

I'd like to know what the elder statesmen of the research community (no disrespect intended) think of this argument.

No disrepect taken. I'd like to hear from them, too.

Damned quiet in here, innit?

Ashton

Edited October 29, 2007 by Ashton Gray

[Jack White]

I agree with Ashton's logic, but not necessarily the conclusions drawn therefrom.

I cannot accept a planned scenario which in advance included Burkley and Perry

and Bowron as co-conspirators.

I suggest a yet unknown theory may be available to account for the activities

of Bowron, Burkley and Perry.

I agree that some of them may be lying...but lying is not always synonymous with

guilt. There may be OTHER reasons for their lies.

I think Ashton is onto something, but is latching onto an obvious conclusion without

considering other unknown possibilities.

Jack

[Kathleen Collins]

This thread is wandering all over the place in a manner unresponsive to

Ashton's initial proposition:

THE NECKTIE WAS IN THE PATH OF ANY BULLET FROM THE FRONT.

All messages which do not address that proposition are off-topic in my

opinion.

I am still looking for the slide I showed the HSCA in 1978 illustrating

this same thing, and will send it to Ashton when I find it, and he

may post it as a comparison to his illustration.

There is NO POSSIBILITY that a frontal bullet pierced the collar.

There is a very slight possibility that a glass sliver penetrated the

collar causing a "slit" in the fabric...but very slight.

I suggest that all responses to Ashton stick to the proposition that

a bullet did not penetrate the necktie.

Jack

*********

From Jack.....

B...

I protest that the image I asked Bernice to post has been

deleted. On my screen, the only thing below Bernice's message

is a large white square with nothing in it. It was the two slides

I showed the HSCA regarding NO HOLE IN THE TIE KNOT, in

response to Ashton's thread. I can conceive of no reason to

censor this image.

Jack

Jack, I am sorry you're having trouble with your computer or whatever. Often I can't see pictures others post too.

But I want to ask you. If Kennedy wasn't shot behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, why are his elbows unnaturally up in the air and his hands clasped, trying to remove his tie? Think of Altgen's photo.

Kathy

[Mark Stapleton]

I agree with Ashton's logic, but not necessarily the conclusions drawn therefrom.

I cannot accept a planned scenario which in advance included Burkley and Perry

and Bowron as co-conspirators.

I suggest a yet unknown theory may be available to account for the activities

of Bowron, Burkley and Perry.

I agree that some of them may be lying...but lying is not always synonymous with

guilt. There may be OTHER reasons for their lies.

I think Ashton is onto something, but is latching onto an obvious conclusion without

considering other unknown possibilities.

Jack

Please see following post.

Edited October 30, 2007 by Mark Stapleton