A Question for Sandy Larsen Regarding "Big Girl" / Gloria Calvery

[Thomas Graves]

Sandy,

If you and I are correct that the headscarf-wearing "Big Girl" was Gloria Jean Calvery, and that Calvery can be seen talking to Billy Lovelady on the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell, then which of Shelley's and Lovelady's statements, testimonies, etc, are the least deceptive, and how do they jibe with what Vicki Adams and her sidekick, Sandra Styles, said, bearing in mind that Adams allegedly told author Barry Ernest that her FBI statement had been altered?

Thanks,.

--  Tommy

http://garyrevel.com/jfk/girlonstairs.html

Edited March 6, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

For our convenience:

Testimony Sources

Victoria Adams

     FBI Report, 11/24/63
          http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd_hsca/wcd_hsca_0005a.gif
     DPD Report, 2/17/64
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Report-typed-by-J.-R.-Leavelle-1.jpg
          (This is a re-interview supposedly done because the 11/24/63 interview by the FBI was
          destroyed in a fire. Which is not true.)
     FBI Report, 3/23/64
          http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          (See page 2.)
     WC Deposition, 4/7/64
          http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm
          https://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol6/page387.php
 

Marrion Baker

     DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63
          [need link. search text: "I saw a man walking away from the stairway"]
     FBI Report, 11/24/63
          [need link. search text: "who observed lee harvey oswald in the company snack bar"]
     FBI Report, 11/29/63
          [need link. search text: "observed lee harvey oswald on the second floor of the building"]
     WC Deposition, 3/25/64
          [need link. search text: "I caught a glimpse of him and I ran over there and opened that door"]
     Voluntary Statement to the FBI, 9/23/64
          [need link. search text: "I had entered the building in an effort to determine if the shots might"]
 

Billy Lovelady

     DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63
          http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0470-001.gif
     FBI Report, 11/22/63
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/FBI-Report-BNL-Nov-23-1963.jpg
     SS Report, 12/7/63
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Commission-Document-87-Secret-Service-report-of-08-Jan-1964-re-Oswald-1.jpg
     FBI Statement, 3/19/64
          http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          (See page 62.)
     WC Deposition, 4/7/64
          http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm
          https://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol6/page336.php
 

Lee Harvey Oswald

     Interrogations
          http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/app11.htm
 

Bill Shelley

     DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63
          http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0492-001.gif
     FBI  Report, 11/23/63
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/FBI-Report-Nov-23-1963.jpg
     SS Report, 12/7/63
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Commission-Document-87-Secret-Service-report-of-08-Jan-1964-re-Oswald.png
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Commission-Document-87-Secret-Service-report-of-08-Jan-1964-re-Oswald-2.png
     FBI Statement, 3/18/64
          http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          (See page 84.)
     WC Deposition, 4/7/64
          http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm
          https://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol6/page327.php
    WC Deposition, 5/14/64
          https://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol7/page390.php

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

Tommy,

Here is what we have from their first-day statements:

Bill Lovelady, 11/22/63 DPD Affidavit:

"After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building."

Bill Lovelady, 11/22/63 FBI Report:

“[Lovelady] said immediately after hearing the shots he and SHELLY started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass. He and SHELLY then returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building."

Bill Shelley, 11/22/63 DPD Affidavit:

"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the president had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is a employee of this same building. I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened."

I will now retell the story, based upon information in the affidavits and what we see in the Couch/Darnell film. We don't know when Shelley and Lovelady exited the stairway, BEFORE or AFTER the Couch/Darnell film. So I will write the story for each possible case.
 

1. Exit & Return Before Couch/Darnell:

After the shooting, Shelley and Lovelady immediately ran across the street to the concrete island. They met Calvery there and she told them the president had been shot. They then returned to the TSBD. Lovelady returned to the place on the steps where he'd been standing earlier. Shelley went inside and called his wife to tell her what had happened. (Baker then crossed the street.)
 

2. Exit Before Couch/Darnell, Return After:

 After the shooting, Shelley immediately ran across the street to the concrete island. He met Calvery there and she told him the president had been shot. She then crossed the street and told Lovelady. Lovelady followed after Shelley several seconds later (after Baker crossed the street) . They later returned to the TSBD and went inside. Once inside, Shelley called his wife to tell her what had happened, and Lovelady took some police officers up to search the building.
 

3. Exit & Return After Couch/Darnell:

After the shooting, Shelley and Lovelady stood on the steps for several seconds (while Baker crossed the street) and  then ran across the street to the concrete island. They met Calvery there and she told them the president had been shot. They then returned to the TSBD and went inside. Once inside, Shelley called his wife to tell her what had happened, and Lovelady took some police officers up to search the building.

Scenarios #1 and #2 are a little awkward, with Lovelady returning to his prior position on the steps in #1, and Lovelady following far behind Shelley in #2. This awkwardness is a direct result of the information from the 11/22/63 FBI report on Lovelady. It's conceivable that that report was altered to have Lovelady cross the street with Shelley, the purpose of the alteration being to prepare for the mass fabrication used to discredit Victoria Adams. But before we discount that report, be aware that Frazier will corroborate it in his WC testimony!

Scenario #3 runs smoothly. But if there is no way Shelley could have been on the steps as Baker crossed the street, then #3 can be removed from consideration.

Now, the thing that started this thread is that it appears that Gloria Calvery is on the steps during the Couch/Darnell film. If that is the case, then Scenario #3 can be eliminated.

I think that what we should do now is look for any other scarf-wearing young lady standing out in front of the TSBD before the shooting, and then look for all of them after the shooting. See if we can determine if the ones at the steps in Couch/Darnell are indeed from Calvery's group.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

Tommy,

There is no further information in the subsequent reports on Lovelady and Shelley regarding their leaving the steps. However, in the March/April 1964 FBI interviews of all the TSBD employees, both Lovelady's and Shelley's affidavits mention -- for the first time -- their walk down Elm St. extension and their entering the TSBD through the door on the west.

[Thomas Graves]

Just now, Sandy Larsen said:

Tommy,

There is no further information in the subsequent reports on Lovelady and Shelley regarding their leaving the steps. However, in the March/April 1964 FBI interviews of all the TSBD employees, both Lovelady's and Shelley's affidavits mention -- for the first time -- their walk down Elm St. extension and their entering the TSBD through the door on the west.

Sandy,

Very nicely done.

After I wake up fully (it could take a few hours), I'll ask you a few questions for clarification.

--  Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/6/2017 at 4:21 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

[...]

Sandy,

I like what you wrote the other night, although you did admit that you were "going from memory" there.

Hypothesis:

Let's assume the story about Shelley and Lovelady entering the west entrance was rehearsed... that is, not true. Going by the first day affidavits, that's a possibility. Here is my hypothesis, going by memory what was said in the affidavits:

The gunshots are heard. Shelley leaves the steps to get a better view (because the limo cannot be seen from the steps, according to Frazier). At the same time Gloria's group are running for cover. That is, to the TSBD. [Shelley and Calvery] encounter each other at the concrete island and Gloria tells Shelley that Kennedy was shot. They all [???]  run back to the steps. Shelley runs inside to call his wife.

Baker arrives. Calvery is talking to Lovelady at the steps as Baker crosses the street. Darnell & Couch film this.

<End Hypothesis>

 

--  Tommy

Note: emphasis and [???] added by me.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

Thanks. On one of these threads I wrote three versions of the story, based on the first-day affidavits and what we see in Darnell/Couch. I remember now that you saw it. I want to look for other women wearing scarves, particularly within the crowd that is standing on the road, in front of TSBD, in a semicircle. (That being my impression of what we see.) Problem is, I don't know the names of the films.There are two such films, but one has the crowd obscured by procession cars.

I'll look around. Hopefully someone can tell me what name to search for.

[Alistair Briggs]

Weigman

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Weigman

Yep.

Dave Weigman.

[Sandy Larsen]

Okay, thanks!

[Thomas Graves]

27 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Okay, thanks!

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Bump for myself. Look at this tomorrow.

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/6/2017 at 4:41 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Tommy,

There is no further information in the subsequent reports on Lovelady and Shelley regarding their leaving the steps. However, in the March/April 1964 FBI interviews of all the TSBD employees, both Lovelady's and Shelley's affidavits mention -- for the first time -- their walk down Elm St. extension and their entering the TSBD through the door on the west.

Sandy,

Now THAT's interesting.

Thanks.

 

I think this 11/22/63 FBI report is probably the most accurate description of what Lovelady and Shelley really did.  

 

In my words:

 "Upon hearing people screaming after the last shot, Shelley and Lovelady ran across Elm Street Extension as far as the concrete 'Island' to get a better view of the limo as it continued down Elm Street and disappeared through the Triple Underpass.  On the said 'Island' they encountered a running, crying, Gloria Calvery, who told them what she'd seen about 45 yards down Elm Street.  Shelley immediately left them and ran back across Elm Street Extension and inside the TSBD to call his wife, while Calvery and a dressed-in-white colleague accompanied Lovelady back to the TSBD steps where his partially-eaten lunch and soda pop were still waiting for him, and in the Couch-Darnell clip Calvery was "caught" talking to him there as she continued describing to him what she and her dressed-in-white colleague had seen."

--  Tommy

  

Edited April 7, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Bill Miller]

3 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

In my words:

 "Upon hearing the last shot and people screaming, Shelley and Lovelady ran across Elm Street Extension as far as the concrete "Island" to get a better view of the limo as it continued down Elm Street and disappeared through the Triple Underpass.  On the "Island" they encountered a running, crying, Gloria Calvery, who told them what she'd seen about 45 yards down Elm Street.  Shelley immediately left them and ran inside the TSBD to call his wife, while Calvery and a dressed-in-white colleague accompanied Lovelady back to the TSBD steps *where his partially-eaten lunch was still waiting for him) and Calvery continued talking to him there and was "caught" doing so in Couch-Darnell."

--  Tommy

  

So you have Shelley going from the Island and into the TSBD ... so what happened to the 3 - 4 minute excursion to the Island - then to the RR yard - to then entering the back of the TSBD?  Does all that time get scrapped now?? 

Perhaps the statements given to the FBI are just general references and not meant to be a total accounting of an event.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

Now THAT's interesting.

Thanks.

 

I think this 11/22/63 FBI report is probably the most accurate description of what Lovelady and Shelley really did.  

 

In my words:

 "Upon hearing the last shot and people screaming, Shelley and Lovelady ran across Elm Street Extension as far as the concrete "Island" to get a better view of the limo as it continued down Elm Street and disappeared through the Triple Underpass.  On the "Island" they encountered a running, crying, Gloria Calvery, who told them what she'd seen about 45 yards down Elm Street.  Shelley immediately left them and ran inside the TSBD to call his wife, while Calvery and a dressed-in-white colleague accompanied Lovelady back to the TSBD steps (where what might have been his partially-eaten lunch and soda pop were still waiting for him), and Calvery continued talking to him there and was "caught" doing so in Couch-Darnell."

--  Tommy

  

Tommy,

I believe the very same thing.

I'll just note -- for the sake of others reading your post -- that your account of what happened is based on the FBI's first day report of Lovelady's statement (which you posted), Shelley's first-day statement, and evidence we see in the Darnell/Couch clip. (Note that our analysis of that evidence is supported by statements from Gloria Calvery and others, in conjunction with a frame from the Zapruder film. This analysis will be presented in coming days.)