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Jack White

Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

2,882 posts in this topic

So you raise yourself above many highly qualified professionals? Who say the collapse was a unique and complicated event, involving a huge number of factors? That is awfully conceited - even for you.

So unique it happened 3 times in one day?

You place yourself above the majority of professionals, too?

Anyway, I spoke to some engineers and they said my question was a bit difficult. The higher building I used in the example would have had thicker beams, and so would have been less suscepible to collapse. If they were built exactly the same, the taller one might have been more suscepible, but it's not as clear cut as I imagined.

I'll concede to Jack & yourself that your views are most likely correct with regard to my example.

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So you raise yourself above many highly qualified professionals? Who say the collapse was a unique and complicated event, involving a huge number of factors? That is awfully conceited - even for you.

So unique it happened 3 times in one day?

You place yourself above the majority of professionals, too?

Not necessarily. But I do question 'authority'.

http://leary.com/

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So you raise yourself above many highly qualified professionals? Who say the collapse was a unique and complicated event, involving a huge number of factors? That is awfully conceited - even for you.

So unique it happened 3 times in one day?

Yes.

How many cases can you site of jetliners crashing into center core buildings and the building surviving? The ESB doesn't qualify because the B24 that hit it was much slower and lighter and carried much less fuel than the Boeings that hit the WTC and the older building used traditional construction meathods in which masonry encased columns were placed every 30 feet or so. a 747 crashed into a low rise apt complex near Amsterdam and that section was destroyed

As for 7 WTC it was also a unique case it was one of the closes high-rises to the twin towers and was struck by a significcant portion of the north towers +200,000 tons collapse on it. Fires raged in the building, which had diesel fuel tanks init for about 7 hours, uncombated for several hours because there was no water. The FDNY had been saying all day the building would collapse how do you reconcile that with CD?

Nathaniel wrote:

Len writes:

The Sight and Sound Theater in Pennsylvania(1)

The McCormick Center in Chicago (1)

A Toy factory in Bangkok (2)

A few other small buildings (1)

A highway over pass in Oakland CA (3)

Intending to conflate these in some ways with high skyscrapers. This is far beyone apples and oranges. Combined with these words "or partially collapsed"

we are in the realm of apples and Japanes-constructed street cleaners. Come on Len, we know your swimming downstream, but you could at least kick now and then!

Your post was quite funny Nathaniel

It was funny I didn’t see you making such an objection to Fetzer’s Coleman stove analogy, nor did you later with Cliff’s light-post analogy, The point is that fire can, despite the claims of 9/11 revisionists to the contrary, cause structural steel to fail. If it couldn’t there would be no need for fireproofing. And it seems to be precisely unprotected or poorly protected steel that fails.

It’s also funny that you left out the Windsor tower. The unprotected steel frame of that building failed very quickly and completely but the concrete core and lower portion survived.

You also chose to ignore the Meridian Tower; its construction was roughly similar to the WTC’s and used similar fireproofing which was newer and presumably intact. But a decade before 9/11 the fire department and structural engineers feared it might collapse due to fire.

As for the Sight and Sound Theater and McCormick Center fires no they weren’t skyscrapers but as Jack pointed out “the floors [of the WTC] were lightweight concrete and steel” and were not designed to bear any of the load of the building above, just the load of their own weight and contents. And it is precisely in the thin floor trusses that failure is believed to have initiated. Since the roofs of the other structures were designed to bear the snow load and there was no snow on then at the time they were as well below their rated load, this didn’t prevent their collapse in short order.

The theater is an interesting case because it under went column failure and used the same type of fireproofing as the WTC. The fireproofing was believed to have been damaged before the fire by vibrations from renovation work and props being brushed against it. 9/11 revisionists however claim that Boeings slamming into the towers couldn’t have significantly damaged the WTC’s spray-on fire-proofing. Which doe think is more energetic a theater prop being pushed or carried at about 3 mph or a + 200,000 lbs 767 fly several hundred mph?

You might enjoy this video

Oh and speaking of the towers fireproofing due to environmental regulations different types were used on the upper and lower floors. The inventor of the older type said “If a fire breaks out above the 64th floor, that building will fall down,”

http://web.archive.org/web/20021217185358/.../i_b0121101.htm

Jack wrote:

This shows an ignorance of engineering principles. LOAD is not transferred to other FLOORS. LOAD IS TRANSFERRED BY STEEL STRUCTURES TO BEDROCK. No floor would have a load any greater than any other floor.

Actually Jack is right, well sort of because he misses the point. Evan was closer to the truth. While the floors thems all bore essentially the same load, the lower down the building the greater the load that section of the columns had to bear. The columns however were proportionally stronger the meet those greater loads. Thus Even’s question was valid. A smaller building might not be more likely to collapse because though its frame would be weaker it would have less load to bear.

Cliff wrote

Please demonstrate how the massive vertical steel tri-cores pancake

collapsed in free-fall speed into their own footprint.

Uuuuh what exactly do you mean by “tri-core”

The columns didn’t “collapse in free-fall speed” nor did they “collapse…into their own footprints”. Why did they collapse? Did you even bother to read the NIST report? Obviously not, you know much more about it than all those dumb engineers don’t you, so why bother? To make a long story short they weren’t designed to be free-standing structures nor to have the buildings they were part of violently collapse around them.

This is like claiming that a lamp-post out on the street could pancake

collapse into its own footprint!

Except that the structure of the cores wasn’t at all like that of a lamp-post.

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There is a magazine which is the trade publication for those who blow up buildings for a living. They published an article on the WTC towers. Perhaps those who seek the truth will read the article.

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%...209-8-06%20.pdf

http://www.implosionworld.com/

Erick

Erick

That excellent paper has already been brought up here but it was worth bring up again. I think the only truther on this forum who looked at it was Ron.

Can we assume your views on 9/11 differ from your wife's?

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There is a magazine which is the trade publication for those who blow up buildings for a living. They published an article on the WTC towers. Perhaps those who seek the truth will read the article.

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%...209-8-06%20.pdf

http://www.implosionworld.com/

Erick

Erick

That excellent paper has already been brought up here but it was worth bring up again. I think the only truther on this forum who looked at it was Ron.

Can we assume your views on 9/11 differ from your wife's?

Len,

The way I look at 9-11 is that there are three points of view. One POV is that the government did it. Another POV is that the government didn’t do it but obscenely exploited it. Another POV is that the government didn’t do it, and all the actions the government took in reaction to it were appropriate.

My POV is that the government didn’t do it but obscenely exploited it, which is exactly how I would expect politicians to act. I am not an idealist with regards to government; I am a cynic.

Erick

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There is a magazine which is the trade publication for those who blow up buildings for a living. They published an article on the WTC towers. Perhaps those who seek the truth will read the article.

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%...209-8-06%20.pdf

http://www.implosionworld.com/

Erick

Erick

That excellent paper has already been brought up here but it was worth bring up again. I think the only truther on this forum who looked at it was Ron.

Can we assume your views on 9/11 differ from your wife's?

Len,

The way I look at 9-11 is that there are three points of view. One POV is that the government did it. Another POV is that the government didn’t do it but obscenely exploited it. Another POV is that the government didn’t do it, and all the actions the government took in reaction to it were appropriate.

My POV is that the government didn’t do it but obscenely exploited it, which is exactly how I would expect politicians to act. I am not an idealist with regards to government; I am a cynic.

Erick

That is precisely my own view - and also that any coverups are to protect individuals who failed to perform their duties, probably through incompetence.

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Colby prevaricated:

"How many cases can you site of jetliners crashing into center core buildings and the building surviving? The ESB doesn't qualify because the B24 that hit it was much slower and lighter and carried much less fuel than the Boeings that hit the WTC and the older building used traditional construction meathods in which masonry encased columns were placed every 30 feet or so. a 747 crashed into a low rise apt complex near Amsterdam and that section was destroyed

As for 7 WTC it was also a unique case it was one of the closes high-rises to the twin towers and was struck by a significcant portion of the north towers +200,000 tons collapse on it. Fires raged in the building, which had diesel fuel tanks init for about 7 hours,"

No B-24 hit the Empire State Building. It was a B-26.

WTC7 was not hit by any debris from the twin towers. Fires did not rage in the building. There was

no diesel fire; diesel burns at a very low temperature anyway.

Jack

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To the Moderators. I'd like Mr. Burtons blah, blah and more so the bullocks quotes removed as cursing, as intent, rather than the word has been repeatedly demonstrated as what makes it offensive or not.

Peter, I did have to change the second word as cursing. That was done some time ago; apparently you didn't notice.

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No B-24 hit the Empire State Building. It was a B-26.

Actually, you are both wrong. It was a B-25.

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WTC7 was not hit by any debris from the twin towers. Fires did not rage in the building. There was no diesel fire.

As usual, ignore the facts when they are inconvenient.

1. The major concern at that time was number Seven, building number Seven, which had taken a big hit from the north tower. When it fell, it ripped steel out from between the third and sixth floors across the facade on Vesey Street. We were concerned that the fires on several floors and the missing steel would result in the building collapsing. –FDNY Chief Frank Fellini

2. At that time, other firefighters started showing up, Deputy Battalion Chief Paul Ferran of the 41 Battalion, and James Savastano of the First Division assigned to the Second Battalion showed up and we attempted to search and extinguish, at the time which was small pockets of fire in 7 World Trade Center. We were unaware of the damage in the front of 7, because we were entering from the northeast entrance. We weren't aware of the magnitude of the damage in the front of the building. – FDNY Captain Anthony Varriale http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110313.PDF

3. [shortly after the tower collapses] I don’t know how long this was going on, but I remember standing there looking over at building 7 and realizing that a big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side. I looked up at the building and I saw smoke in it, but I really didn't see any fire at that time. Deputy ––Chief Nick Visconti http://tinyurl.com/paqux

4. A few minutes after that a police officer came up to me and told me that the façade in front of Seven World Trade Center was gone and they thought there was an imminent collapse of Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Lieutenant William Melarango http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110045.PDF

5. I think they said they had seven to ten floors that were freestanding and they weren't going to send anyone in. –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110055.PDF

6. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a hose line operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too.

Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandeis came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.

Firehouse Magazine: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered through there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. – Capt. Chris Boyle http://tinyurl.com/e7bzp

7. After the initial blast, Housing Authority worker Barry Jennings, 46, reported to a command center on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center. He was with Michael Hess, the city's corporation counsel, when they felt and heard another explosion [the collapse of the north tower]. First calling for help, they scrambled downstairs to the lobby, or what was left of it. "I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked like hell," Jennings said. http://www.record-eagle.com/2001/sep/11scene.htm

8. Anyway, I was looking at WTC7 and I noticed that it wasn’t looking like it was straight. It was really weird. The closest corner to me (the SE corner) was kind of out of whack with the SW corner. It was impossible to tell whether that corner (the SW) was leaning over more or even if it was leaning the other way. With all of the smoke and the debris pile, I couldn’t exactly tell what was going on, but I sure could see the building was leaning over in a way it certainly should not be. I asked another guy looking with me and he said “That building is going to come down, we better get out of here.” So we did. –M.J., Employed at 45 Broadway, in a letter to me.

9. So we left 7 World Trade Center, back down to the street, where I ran into Chief Coloe from the 1st Division, Captain Varriale, Engine 24, and Captain Varriale told Chief Coloe and myself that 7 World Trade Center was badly damaged on the south side and definitely in danger of collapse. Chief Coloe said we were going to evacuate the collapse zone around 7 World Trade Center, which we did. – FDNY Lieutenant Rudolph Weindler http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110462.PDF

10. Just moments before the south tower collapsed and, you know, when it happened we didn't know it was the south tower. We thought it was the north tower. There was a reporter of some sort, female with blond hair and her cameraman, an oriental fellow. They were setting up outside 7 World Trade Center, just east of the pedestrian bridge. I told them it would probably be better off to be set up under the bridge. At least it was protected. I was just about to enter a dialogue with her when I heard a sound I never heard before. I looked up and saw this huge cloud. I told him run. I grabbed the female, I threw her through the revolving doors of number 7.

We were proceeding inside. She fell to the ground. I helped her out, I pushed her towards the direction of where we were all in the south corner and there was a little doorway behind that desk which led into the loading bays. Everybody started to run through that. Never made it to that door. The next thing that I remember was that I was covered in some glass and some debris. Everything came crashing through the front of number 7. It was totally pitch black.

Q. Were you injured?

A. Yes, I saw some stuff had fallen on me. I didn't believe that I was injured at that time. I discovered later on I was injured. I had some shards of glass impaled in my head, but once I was able to get all this debris and rubble off of me and cover my face with my jacket so that I could breathe, it was very thick dust, you couldn't see. We heard some sounds. We reached out and felt our way around. I managed to find some other people in this lower lobby. We crawled over towards the direction where we thought the door was and as we approached it the door cracked open a little, so we had the lights from the loading bay. We made our way over there. The loading bay doors were 3-fourths of the way shut when this happened, so they took a lot of dust in there, but everyone in those bays was safe and secure. We had face to face contact with Chief Maggio and Captain Nahmod. They told me – I said do whatever you need to do, get these people out of here. Go, go towards the water. –EMS Division Chief Jon Peruggia

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110160.PDF

11. You could see the damage at 7 World Trade Center, the damage into the AT&T building.

–FDNY Firefighter Vincent Palmieri http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110258.PDF

12. At this point, 7, which is right there on Vesey, the whole corner of the building was missing. I was thinking to myself we are in a bad place, because it was the corner facing us. –Fred Marsilla, FDNY

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110399.PDF

13. The way we got into the loading dock [of WTC 7] was not the way we were getting out. It was obstructed.

Q. The door was blocked?

A. Yeah, and we found our way -- we walked across the loading dock area, and we found there was another door. We went in that door, and from there we were directed to -- I really guess it was like a basement area of the building, but we were directed to an opposite door. –Dr. Michael Guttenberg , NYC Office of Medical Affairs http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110005.PDF

14. We eventually ended up meeting after the second explosion, three of us met up here, but I didn't see a lot of the people that were with me until two, three days later. I got word that they were okay. For instance, Dr. Guttenberg and Dr. Asaeda, who were at 7 World Trade Center, they got trapped in there and had to like climb in and out and get out because that building also became very damaged supposedly and they were there. We thought they were dead. I guess he was in an area where Commissioner Tierney might have been, I believe. I think she was in 7 also. –Paramedic Manuel Delgado http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110004.PDF

(After collapse of south tower)

15. The decision was either to go left or right and we ended up going right, between the two buildings, in the alleyway on the north, which turned out to be the right direction because apparently there was a lot of debris and part of 7 down already. Also, I did notice as I was making my exit the sound of the firefighters' alarms indicating that they were down. I did remember that as well but just could not see anything. –Dr. Glenn Asaeda http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives...pts/9110062.PDF

16. I saw the firefighter. There were people screaming out of one of these two buildings over here saying they couldn't get out, and my partner took one straggler fireman, the one that we had with us, and was trying to break the door because the door obviously had shifted or something. They couldn't get the door open.

Q: That was 7 World Trade Center?

A: I believe it was 7. Maybe it was 5. It was at the back end of it because I do remember the telephone company [which is next to building 7]. So I think it was the back end of 7, I think right over here at that point, and they couldn't get out. Then I had ran down the block and I flagged a ladder company and they brought the ladder, which they had like a vestibule that you couldn't like really reach the people because the ladder wouldn't reach. So they went and got other resources, they went inside the building, and I told my partner that it wasn't safe and that we need to go because everything around us was like falling apart. –EMT Nicole Ferrell http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110304.PDF

17. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower. – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)

18. At that point, they said that Seven World Trade had no face and it was ready to collapse. – EMT Mercedes Rivera: (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 29)

19. You see the white smoke, you see the thing leaning like this? It's definitely going. There's no way to stop it. 'Cause you have to go up in there to put it out, and it's already, the structural integrity is not there. –Unidentified firefighter in this video.

20. As far as I was concerned, we were still trapped. I was hopeful. things were looking a whole lot better now than they were just a few minutes earlier, but we were a long way from safe and sound. Five World Trade Center was fully involved, Six World Trade Center was roaring pretty good, and behind them Seven World Trade Center was teetering on collapse.

The buildings just behind him and to his left were looking like they too might collapse at any time, and there were whole chunks of concrete falling to both sides. Flames dancing everywhere. The small-arms detonations were kicking up a notch or two, and it sounded like this poor guy was being fired at, by snipers or unseen terrorists, at close range. (Last Man Down by Richard Picciotto, FDNY Battalion Commander Penguin Books, 2002. page 191)

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/accountsofwtc7damage

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WTC7 Fires:

Once the fires developed, according to witness accounts and photo evidence gathered in the NIST investigation, there were confirmed fires on at least 16 floors: 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 19, 21, 22, 29, and 30.

"The building was fully involved in fire." – Photographer Steve Spak

"I had a clear view down Washington Street of Building Seven, which was on the north edge of the site. All forty-seven stories were on fire. It was wild. The MPs said the building was going to collapse. I said, "Nah, I don't know." And then all of a sudden I watched the building shake like an earthquake hit it, and the building came down." –Ground Zero Superintendant Charlie Vitchers (Glenn Stout, Charles Vitchers, and Robert Gray. Nine Months at Ground Zero. Scribner, 2006 15-16) Note: Vitchers may have only seen the building from the north side. There may not have been visible fires on most floors there. His quote is included to show how impressive the scene was.

First responder accounts

Unless otherwise noted, accounts are from the FDNY oral history transcripts.

1. We walked over by number Seven World Trade Center as it was burning and saw this 40-plus story building with fire on nearly all floors. –FDNY Lieutenant Robert LaRocca

2. ...Just when you thought it was over, you're walking by this building and you're hearing this building creak and fully involved in flames. It's like, is it coming down next? Sure enough, about a half an hour later it came down. –FDNY Lieutenant James McGlynn

3. I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank [Cruthers]. He said, we’re moving the command post over this way, that building’s coming down. At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy fire and smoke that really wasn’t bothering us when we were searching because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at the intersection, and we were trying to back them up – and here goes 7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run. –FDNY Deputy Chief Nick Visconti http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag...z/visconti.html

4. All morning I was watching 7 World Trade burn, which we couldn't do anything about because it was so much chaos looking for missing members. –Firefighter Marcel Klaes

5. When the building came down it was completely involved in fire, all forty-seven stories.

–FDNY Assistant Chief Harry Myers (Smith, Dennis, 2002. Report From Ground Zero: The Heroic Story of the Rescuers at the World Trade Center. New York: Penguin Putnam. p. 160)

6. The concern there again, it was later in the afternoon, 2, 2:30, like I said. The fear then was Seven. Seven was free burning. Search had been made of 7 already from what they said so they had us back up to that point where we were waiting for 7 to come down to operate from the north back down. –Captain Robert Sohmer http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110472.PDF

7. Then we had to move because the Duane Reade, they said, wasn't safe because building 7 was really roaring. –FDNY Chief Medical Officer Kerry Kelly.

8. At this point Seven World Trade was going heavy, and they weren't letting anybody get too close. Everybody was expecting that to come down. –Firefighter Vincent Massa

9. Chief Cruthers told me that they had formed another command post up on Chambers Street. At this point there were a couple of floors burning on Seven World Trade Center. Chief McNally wanted to try and put that fire out, and he was trying to coordinate with the command post up on Chambers Street. This is after searching for a while. He had me running back and forth trying to get companies to go into Seven World Trade Center. His radio didn't seem to be working right either because he had me relaying information back and forth and Chief Cruthers had me --

Q. So everything was face-to-face? Nothing was by radio?

A. Yeah, and it was really in disarray. It really was in complete disarray. We never really got an operation going at Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Captain Michael Donovan

10. Building #7 was still actively burning and at that time we were advised by a NYFD Chief that building #7 was burning out of control and imminent collapse was probable. –PAPD P.O. Edward McQuade http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports02.pdf page 48.

11. At Vesey St. and West St., I could see that 7 WTC was ablaze and damaged, along with other buildings. –M. DeFilippis, PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports03.pdf page 49

[Note: the fires in 7 were probably not mainly due to damage from the south tower, but from the north.]

12. So yeah then we just stayed on Vesey until building Seven came down. There was nothing we could do. The flames were coming out of every window of that building from the explosion of the south tower. So then building Seven came down. When that started coming down you heard that pancaking sound again everyone jumped up and starts.

Q: Why was building Seven on fire? Was that flaming debris from tower two, from tower two that fell onto that building and lit it on fire?

A: Correct. Because it really got going, that building Seven, saw it late in the day and like the first Seven floors were on fire. It looked like heavy fire on seven floors. It was fully engulfed, that whole building. There were pieces of tower two [sic: he probably means tower one] in building Seven and the corners of the building missing and what-not. But just looking up at it from ground level however many stories -- it was 40 some odd -- you could see the flames going straight through from one side of the building to the other, that’s an entire block. –Firefighter Tiernach Cassidy

13. "We were down about a block from the base of the World Trade Center towers about an hour ago. And there was a great deal of concern at that time, the firemen said building number 7 was going to collapse, building number five was in danger of collapsing. And there's so little they can do to try to fight the fires in these buildings, because the fires are so massive. And so much of the buildings continues to fall into the street. When you're down there, Dan, you hear smaller secondary explosions going off every 15 or 20 minutes, and so it's an extremely dangerous place to be."

–CBS-TV News Reporter Vince DeMentri http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.....explosions.wmv

14. Well, they said that's (7) fully involved at this time. This was a fully involved building. I said, all right, they're not coming for us for a while. Now you're trapped in this rubble, and you're trying to get a grasp of an idea of what's going on there. I heard on the handy talky that we are now fighting a 40-story building fully involved.

Now you're trapped in the rubble and the guys who are there are fighting the worst high-rise fire in the history of New York or history of the world, probably, I don't know, 40, story building fully involved, I guess that was probably the worst.

I was, needless to say, scared to death that something else was going to fall on us, that this building was going to come down and we were all going to die, after surviving the worst of it. [Note: I deleted the link this account, and searching the net for the text doesn’t turn up anything. This sounds like an account from north tower stairwell B survivor. Anyone who knows for sure, let me know.]

15. And 7 World Trade was burning up at the time. We could see it. ... the fire at 7 World Trade was working its way from the front of the building northbound to the back of the building. There was no way there could be water put on it, because there was no water in the area. –Firefighter Eugene Kelty Jr.

16. The time was approximately 11a.m. Both of the WTC towers were collapsed and the streets were covered with debris. Building #7 was still standing but burning. ...We spoke to with a FDNY Chief who has his men holed up in the US Post Office building. He informed us that the fires in building 7 were uncontrollable and that its collapse was imminent. There were no fires inside the loading dock (of 7) at this time but we could hear explosions deep inside. –PAPD P.O. William Connors http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports04.pdf page 69

17. "There's number Seven World Trade. That's the OEM bunker." We had a snicker about that. We looked over, and it's engulfed in flames and starting to collapse.

We're kind of caught in traffic and people and things, and everything's going on. We hear over the fire portable, "Everybody evacuate the site. It's going to collapse." Mark Steffens starts yelling, "Get out of here! Get out of here! Get out of here! We've got to go! We've got to go! It's going to collapse." I turned around, and I piped up real loud and said, "Stay in the frigging car. Roll the windows up. It's pancake collapsing. We'll be fine. The debris will quit and the cloud will come through. Just stay in the car." We pulled the car over, turned around and just watched it pancake. We had a dust cloud but nothing like it was before. –Paramedic Louis Cook

(Building 7 fire makes rescuer of NT stairwell victim’s route impassable, just before collapse):

I remember it was bad and I'm going to get to a point where we came back that way on the way up. We couldn't even go that way, that's how bad the fire was, but by the time I was coming back it was rolling, more than a couple of floors, just fully involved, rolling.

...So now it's us 4 and we are walking towards it and I remember it would have at one point been an easier path to go towards our right, but being building 7 -- that must have been building 7 I'm guessing with that fire, we decided to stay away from that because things were just crackling, falling and whatnot. So as I’m going back, that fire that was on my right is now on my left. I’m backtracking and that fire is really going and on the hike towards there, we put down our masks, which at this point started to realize maybe it would have been good thing if we had this mask on the way back, but then again between the fire and about halfway when I was on the way back, I got a radio call from the guys that we left and it was Johnny Colon the chauffeur of 43, who was effecting a different rescue. He was carrying somebody out.

He had called me and said “Hey Jerry don’t try and get back out the way you went in which was big heads up move because he said that building was rolling on top of the building that we were passing. That building was on fire and likely to collapse more too.

Between Picciotto asking me are you sure we can get out this way because it really didn’t look good with that fire and my guy telling me that you better not because of the area we crawled in was unattainable now too. ...we started going back the other way.

Q: Would that be towards West Street?

A: That would have been back towards what I know is the Winter Garden....[west]

–Firefighter Gerard Suden

18. I remember Chief Hayden saying to me, "We have a six-story building over there, a seven-story building, fully involved." At that time he said, "7 has got fire on several floors." He said, "We've got a ten-story over there, another ten-story over there, a six-story over there, a 13-story over there." He just looked at me and said, "xxxx 'em all. Let 'em burn." He said, "Just tell the guys to keep looking for guys. Just keep looking for the brothers. We've got people trapped. We've got to get them out." –Lieutenant William Ryan

19. I walked around the building to get back to the command post and that's when they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down. ...They had three floors of fire on three separate floors, probably 10, 11 and 15 it looked like, just burning merrily. It was pretty amazing, you know, it's the afternoon in lower Manhattan, a major high-rise is burning, and they said 'we know.' –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy

20. We were champing at the bit," says WCBS-TV reporter Vince DeMentri of his decision to sneak behind police barricades and report from 7 World Trade Center a half-hour before it collapsed. "I knew the story was in there." But after he and his cameraman slipped past officers, they lost all sense of direction. "From outside this zone, you could figure out where everything was," he says. "But inside, it was all destruction and blown-out buildings, and we had no clue. I walked into one building, but I had no idea where I was. The windows were all blown out. Computers, desks, furniture, and people's possessions were strewn all over." He found a picture of a little girl lying in the rubble. Then he realized that No. 7, aflame, was about fifteen to twenty feet ahead of him. "I looked up Barclay Street," he says. "There was nobody out. No bodies, no injured. Nobody. There were mounds of burning debris. It was like opening a broiler." http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/featu...5183/index.html

21. They are worried that number 7 is burning and they are talking about not ceasing operations.

–Deputy Commissioner Frank Gribbon

22. There were hundreds of firefighters waiting to -- they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down as it was on fire. It was too dangerous to go in and fight the fire. –Assistant Commissioner James Drury

23. We assisted some FDNY personnel who were beginning to attempt to fight the fire at 7 WTC. We assisted in dragging hose they needed to bring water into the building. –Kenneth Kohlmann PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transc...e-reports04.pdf page 26

24. My first thoughts when I came down a little further into the site, south of Chambers Street, was, "Where am I?" I didn't recognize it. Obviously, the towers were gone. The only thing that remained standing was a section of the Vista Hotel. Building 7 was on fire. That was ready to come down. –Charlie Vitchers, Ground Zero Superintendent http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/profile...vitchers_t.html

25. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower, and there was fire on every floor." – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)

26. At that point, Seven World Trade had 12 stories of fire in it. They were afraid it was going to collapse on us, so they pulled everybody out. We couldn't do anything. – Firefighter Maureen McArdle-Schulman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 17)

27. The 7 World Trade Center was roaring. All we could think is we were an Engine Company, we have got to get them some water. We need some water you know. With that, we positioned the rig, I don't know, 3 quarters of a block away maybe. A fire boat was going to relay water to us. I don't know if I have things in the right order, whatever, if we were getting water out of a hydrant first. Jesus Christ --

Q. Captain said you were getting water. You were draining a vacuum?

A. It was draining away from us. Right. We had to be augmented. I think that's when the fire boat came. I think the fire boats supplied us. Of course you don't see that. You just see the (inaudible) way and you know, we are hooking up and we wound up supplying the Tower Ladder there. I just remember feeling like helpless, like everybody there was doomed and there is -- I just felt like there was absolutely nothing we could do. I want to just go back a little bit.–Firefighter Kevin Howe

28. "When I got out and onto a clear pile, I see that 7 World Trade Center and the customs house have serious fire. Almost every window has fire. It is an amazing site. –Captain Jay Jonas, Ladder 6. (Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002. P. 103)

29. Firefighter TJ Mundy: "The other building, #7, was fully involved, and he was worried about the next collapse." (Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002.)

30. 7 World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling fully involved. It was unbelievable. –Firefighter Steve Modica http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag.../gz/modica.html

31. So I attempted to get in through the Barkley Street ramp which is on Barkley (sic) and West Broadway, but I was being held back by the fire department, because 7 World Trade, which is above the ramp, was now fully engulfed.

–PAPD K-9 Sergeant David Lim http://www.911report.com/media/davidlim.pdf

32. We could hear fires crackling. We didn’t know it at the time, but No. 7 World Trade Center and No. 5 World Trade Center were immediately adjacent to us and they were roaring, they were on fire. Those were the sounds that we were hearing. ...At the same time, No. 5 World Trade Center, No. 6 World Trade Center and No. 7 World Trade Center were roaring. They were on fire. And they were right next to us. So we have all that smoke that we’re dealing with.

–FDNY Capt. Jay Jonas http://archive.recordonline.com/adayinseptember/jonas.htm

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/eyewitness...untsofwtc7fires

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There is a magazine which is the trade publication for those who blow up buildings for a living. They published an article on the WTC towers. Perhaps those who seek the truth will read the article.

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%...209-8-06%20.pdf

http://www.implosionworld.com/

Erick

Erick

That excellent paper has already been brought up here but it was worth bring up again. I think the only truther on this forum who looked at it was Ron.

Can we assume your views on 9/11 differ from your wife's?

Yes Len we can assume this. But Erick also knew virtually zero about the JFK assassination when we met , he just does not as John Simkin calls it, "think critically" on these specific matters. But he's a great guy, a wonderful husband and an excellent, in fact brilliant attorney. (And for me he did read at least 10-12 books on JFK assassination and KNOWS that was a conspiracy). However, like most Americans cannot accept that our government would be involved in 9-11. He's simply blocked on the truth. So we simply do not discuss it, as it only leads to an argument.

As for me I do not know how any rational thinking person can see all the evidence and believe the official nonsence. In fact I don't even post on these threads for this reason. Except I will say that there is a lot of disinformation on 9-11 to make those seeking the truth look like idiots. It is what happens in every conspiracy. A tried and true device to confuse: make conspiracy look foolish.

Dawn

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B-25 hits Empire State Building

The B-24 is visually vaguely similar to the B-25, but has 4 engines instead of 2 for the B-25.

b-25_2.jpg

B-25

b24aerial.jpg

B-24

B-26%2042-96142.jpg

B-26

Edited to add image of B-26

Edited by Evan Burton

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....make conspiracy look foolish.

They don't need any help to do that.

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The B25 and B26, as I recall, were visually similar EXCEPT FOR RUDDER CONFIGURATION.

The B25 had twin rudders. The B26 had a single rudder. My remembrance, which could be

wrong since it was so long ago, is that the plane which hit the Empire State Building had a

single rudder. However, Google articles seem to confirm it was a B25

Jack

Edited by Jack White

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