Kathleen Collins Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 I heard a story once that one of the Tramps had killed his parents. I thought it was Sturgis. It turned out to be Charles Frederick Rogers, who was wanted in Austin, TX. He is also called "Frenchy." Some people believe he is the first Tramp. As for myself, I don't know who is the first Tramp. I believe Charles Harrelson is the second and E. Howard Hunt is the third. It is mentioned here, but there are no details, about Charles Rogers killing his parents. I will continue to look for more. www.assassinationscience.com/Verb.html Kathy C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 I heard a story once that one of the Tramps had killed his parents. I thought it was Sturgis. It turned out to be Charles Frederick Rogers, who was wanted in Austin, TX. He is also called "Frenchy." Some people believe he is the first Tramp.As for myself, I don't know who is the first Tramp. I believe Charles Harrelson is the second and E. Howard Hunt is the third. It is mentioned here, but there are no details, about Charles Rogers killing his parents. I will continue to look for more. www.assassinationscience.com/Verb.html Kathy C Kathy, Rogers allegedly murdered his parents in 1965. The press dubbed the killings as 'The Ice Box Murders'. In 1975, Charles Frederick Rogers was ruled as being legally dead by Judge Arthur C. Lesher. He is not one of the three tramps arrested in Dallas. That aside, Rogers is a very interesting character who according to witnesses may have interacted with Oswald in the weeks leading up to the assassination. The photograph below is Charles Rogers circa late 1950's. The clipping is concerning the murders. FWIW. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Simkin Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 You will find out more about Charles Rogers here: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKrogersC.htm Charles Rogers was born in 1921. He studied nuclear physics at the University of Houston and during the Second World War served with the Organization of Naval Intelligence. After the war he worked as a seismologist with Shell Oil. While a member of the Civil Air Patrol he became a close friend of David Ferrie. In 1956 Rogers joined the Central Intelligence Agency. An associate of Carlos Marcello, Rogers was accused of being involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy. The forensic artist, Louis Gibson, claimed that Rogers was "Frenchy", one of the three tramps (along with W and Chauncey Holt) arrested in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November, 1963. After his release Rogers left the country in a CIA plane to South America. In the 1992 book The Man on the Grassy Knoll, John R. Craig and Philip A. Rogers claimed that Rogers was the Lee Harvey Oswald imposter who traveled to Mexico City the month before the assassination. The authors claim that Rogers and Charles Harrelson, were the two gunman behind the picket fence on the Grassy Knoll. On 23rd June, 1965, his parents, Fred and Edwina Rogers, were found murdered in Houston, Texas. Officer Charles Bullock later reported:"We opened up the refrigerator and seen nothing but meat stacked in it. My partner standing next to me made the comment that it looked like somebody had butchered a hog. We didn't now it was a body until we got ready to close the refrigerator and we could see the (human) head down in the bottom of the vegetable bin. Charles Rogers was the chief suspect but he disappeared and has never been seen since. The private detective, John R. Craig, claims that Rogers continued to work for the CIA in South America and was part of the Iran-Contra program. Another report says he was murdered in in Honduras. In October, 1991, Chauncey Holt confessed to John Craig, Phillip Rogers and Gary Shaw about his role in the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Holt's story was undermined in 1992 when the Dallas Police Department revealed that the three tramps were Gus Abrams, John F. Gedney and Harold Doyle. Ray and Mary LaFontaine carried out their own research into this claim. They traced Doyle and Gedley who confirmed they were two of the tramps in the photograph. Gus Abrams was dead but his sister identified him as the third tramp in the photograph. Another photograph of Rogers below: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Bailey Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 John, The forensic artist's correct name is Lois Gibson. All of her claims about the three tramps identities were to direct the public away from the real identities of the three hobos. During the time I lived in Houston, I read a few of her stories published in the Houston Chronicle about her work. To me, her work is to provide disinformation about the tramps identities!! How can Gibson determine if it was Rogers if she only had the photos that we have today of Rogers? Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Kathy,Rogers allegedly murdered his parents in 1965. The press dubbed the killings as 'The Ice Box Murders'. In 1975, Charles Frederick Rogers was ruled as being legally dead by Judge Arthur C. Lesher. He is not one of the three tramps arrested in Dallas. (emphasis added by Thomas Graves) That aside, Rogers is a very interesting character who according to witnesses may have interacted with Oswald in the weeks leading up to the assassination. The photograph below is Charles Rogers circa late 1950's. The clipping is concerning the murders. FWIW. James _____________________________________________________ Hi James, You know I highly respect your research and beliefs regarding the assassination. Any thoughts on who the first tramp was? Thanks, --Thomas _____________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Hi Thomas, I must admit the whole tramps thing has me completely confused. I don't buy the official Doyle, Gedney and Abrams identifications but do give serious consideration to Charles Harrelson being the Tall Tramp. 'Frenchy' bears a striking resemblance to a Cuban exile mixed up with Operation Tilt but then again, 'Frenchy' looks somewhat like Michael Paine. I don't think the Old Tramp was Chauncey Holt and while we are all guessing at identities, let's not forget that Fletcher Prouty and Victor Krulak identified the man passing the three men under police escort as being Edward Lansdale. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Hi Thomas,I must admit the whole tramps thing has me completely confused. I don't buy the official Doyle, Gedney and Abrams identifications but do give serious consideration to Charles Harrelson being the Tall Tramp. 'Frenchy' bears a striking resemblance to a Cuban exile mixed up with Operation Tilt but then again, 'Frenchy' looks somewhat like Michael Paine. I don't think the Old Tramp was Chauncey Holt and while we are all guessing at identities, let's not forget that Fletcher Prouty and Victor Krulak identified the man passing the three men under police escort as being Edward Lansdale. James _____________________________________________ James, Great post. As we all know, Ron Ecker thinks the dude walking past the tramps might be Gen. Maxwell Taylor.... (My dad keeps saying that someday he's going to introduce me to his buddy Krulak whom he met during the Korean War. He actually called Krulak a few weeks ago to see if it was OK for us to come by to visit him at his house, but unfortunately "Brute" had another social engagement that particular day. Bummer.) Are you at liberty to divulge the name of the Cuban guy you think might have been the first tramp? Thanks, --Thomas _____________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Hi James, Are you aware that according to Charles Rogers' neighbours, he knew Charles Harrelson, and that both Charles Harrelson and Lee Harvey Oswald visited their house in september 1963, awaiting Charles Rogers who was late for their meeting? It's a rather unknown, but fascinating story. If you accept it, there is known link that the three knew each other well. Wim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 (edited) Photo of Michael Paine: Edit: I guess "png" images don't work. Edited July 14, 2008 by Ron Ecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Photo of Michael Paine: Edit: I guess "png" images don't work. PNG images can be imported into another graphics program and easily converted to JPG. In tough cases, a screenshot can be made and saved as JPG. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Thomas, I don't think the Tramp was Michael Paine but here's a comparison that shows some definte similarities. The Cuban's name is Ernesto y el Esposo de Socorro. Wim, Yes I was aware of that alleged connection which is the one I alluded to in my initial post. Cheers, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Thomas,I don't think the Tramp was Michael Paine but here's a comparison that shows some definte similarities. The Cuban's name is Ernesto y el Esposo de Socorro. Wim, Yes I was aware of that alleged connection which is the one I alluded to in my initial post. Cheers, James Is this your only photo of Ernesto? Not very close to me. There are certain feature not the same. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 James, Thanks, that's the picture of Paine that I tried to post. That guy's not Frenchy, but I wouldn't buy a used car from him. What I would like to see is a picture of Jerry Hoy. According to Cutler's memo, "Gary Shaw showed picture of Frenchy around General Dynamics (Dallas?) everyone said that's Jerry Hoy." Come up with a photo of Hoy, James, and I'll be convinced that you're a magician. Is Gary Shaw still around? Anyone in touch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 (edited) Thomas,I don't think the Tramp was Michael Paine but here's a comparison that shows some definte similarities. The Cuban's name is Ernesto y el Esposo de Socorro. Wim, Yes I was aware of that alleged connection which is the one I alluded to in my initial post. Cheers, James _________________________________________________________ James, Jack, Ron, Peter, et al In the photos that James posted in post #12, it's interesting to note that the collar of Michael Paine is turned up, as is the collar of "Frenchy." Hmmm. Since it was around 73 degrees Fahrenheit in "Big D" when the "Tramps" were paraded through Dealy Plaza around 2 o'clock that afternoon, one can only wonder why "Frenchy" had his collar turned up. Because he was cold? (LOL) Because he wanted to make a "fashion statement?" (LOL) Because, like Michael Paine, he was in the habit of turning his collar up? Hmmm......... Was "Frenchy" Michael Paine? Was "Frenchy" someone who was masquerading as Michael Paine. Or....?? Hmmmm............ FWIW, --Thomas _________________________________________________________ Edited July 15, 2008 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 Thomas,I don't think the Tramp was Michael Paine but here's a comparison that shows some definte similarities. The Cuban's name is Ernesto y el Esposo de Socorro. Wim, Yes I was aware of that alleged connection which is the one I alluded to in my initial post. Cheers, James _________________________________________________________ James, Jack, Ron, Peter, et al In the photos that James posted in post #12, it's interesting to note that the collar of Michael Paine is turned up, as is the collar of "Frenchy." Hmmm. Since it was around 73 degrees Fahrenheit in "Big D" when the "Tramps" were paraded through Dealy Plaza around 2 o'clock that afternoon, one can only wonder why "Frenchy" had his collar turned up. Because he was cold? (LOL) Because he wanted to make a "fashion statement?" (LOL) Because, like Michael Paine, he was in the habit of turning his collar up? Hmmm......... Was "Frenchy" Michael Paine? Was "Frenchy" someone who was masquerading as Michael Paine. Or....?? Hmmmm............ FWIW, --Thomas _________________________________________________________ All Frenchy tramp candidates must pass the vertical wrinkle test. All photos of him show a deep VERTICAL "squint" wrinkle of the supraorbital ridge between the eyebrows. I notice such wrinkles because I have one, caused by "squinting" in bright sunlight. See attached, done long ago. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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