A shot fired through the front of the windshield- To Barb and Jerry

[Jack White]

imo doug and ]all that would be a great source if we could have threads of both tosh's info of the south side of elm thread and this one to contine..there has been much information being released and offered by doug in this thread am i now surprised it has been mucked up..no not in the least it really was going too well, seems that always happens not faultng anyone but that does seem to happen often...please continue tosh if possible.and if you do want your information out there if not it cannot be looked into any further can it..??.tosh thanks for your information it is always of great interest to many others....why pack up your bags so quickly AND LEAVE STAY AND stART A NEW THREAD COPY AND PASTE YOUR INFO AND TEACH THOSE WHO DO WANT TO ACCESS YOUR INFO, or let them down, your call..best b..

Bernice:

I agree about Tosh I just do not want to lose focus on the thread I have going. That is why I opened a new thread to begin with. Plumlee is extremely important! I hope he will watch the you-tube presentation and see what a sniper would have viewed from the south side of the underpass with my video. I do want to get the questions I addressed in my long posting and I believe the dialog and responses will be important.

Take care,

Doug

Bernice...Threads are ALL MUCKED UP on purpose by certain persons who are here not to enlighten but to obfuscate.

I name no names. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Jack

[Bernice Moore]

imo doug and ]all that would be a great source if we could have threads of both tosh's info of the south side of elm thread and this one to contine..there has been much information being released and offered by doug in this thread am i now surprised it has been mucked up..no not in the least it really was going too well, seems that always happens not faultng anyone but that does seem to happen often...please continue tosh if possible.and if you do want your information out there if not it cannot be looked into any further can it..??.tosh thanks for your information it is always of great interest to many others....why pack up your bags so quickly AND LEAVE STAY AND stART A NEW THREAD COPY AND PASTE YOUR INFO AND TEACH THOSE WHO DO WANT TO ACCESS YOUR INFO, or let them down, your call..best b..

Bernice:

I agree about Tosh I just do not want to lose focus on the thread I have going. That is why I opened a new thread to begin with. Plumlee is extremely important! I hope he will watch the you-tube presentation and see what a sniper would have viewed from the south side of the underpass with my video. I do want to get the questions I addressed in my long posting and I believe the dialog and responses will be important.

Take care,

Doug

Bernice...Threads are ALL MUCKED UP on purpose by certain persons who are here not to enlighten but to obfuscate.

I name no names. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Jack

YES JACK I KNOW OF THE MUCKERS CLUB AND THEIR ROTTEN FRUIT...THANKS KATHY FOR GOING TO THE TROUBLE Of ARRANGING A SEPARATE THREAD IMO THAT'S GREAT SO As the separate but similar in some areas of information can be perused.to see what gels and comes together.....b again excuse caps many thanks...

Edited February 19, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

Bullet holes in the limousine and extra bullets in Dealey Plaza (Extended English Version)

B

[Doug Weldon]

We are all "victims" of our experiences and I understand how ourr backgrounds might cause us to have different perspectives on things. Ferguson is an interesting character. His December 18, 1963 memo was supposedly released by misstake to Pamela McElwain Brown. She can discuss those circumstances better than I. What is so odd is that he distoted so many known facts. It appears he actually examined the vehicle. He was actually in charge of the Ford vehicles at the White House garage. He clearly described the damage to the windshield in the wrong place. He said Arlington Glass came in on November 25 when the logs show it was November 26 (there will be something new on that I will share in the future) Later he describes himself driving to Dearborn and Cinncinnati under impossible circumstances and dates that do not match records in Cinncinnati. As you are aware, because of Whitaker, I believe the Ford Motor Company was complicit with the Secret Service in destroying evidence and participating in a cover-up. To my knowledge Ford has never said anything about the Ferguson memo. I tried to find people who knew Ferguson. I found one person who knew him well, Willard Hess, whose company built the limo. He referred to him as "Fergie" and laughed when I told him Ferguson's account. His company's records were given to the HSCA which noted the discrepencies with erguson about the record. There are many problems with his memo even as far as his addressing his cleaning of the vehicle. I believe his memo was designed to cloud the record. Why it was being held and not meant for release I cannot explain. Hess' comment to me was that Ferguson was very much a "Company man."

What do you think of of Vaughn's assertion that Officer B.J. Martin saw the limo at Parkland and stated there was NO damage to the windshield.

Hi Doug,

The whole Ferguson/Whitaker thing sounds bizarre. Ferguson clearly had the date of the windshield replacement by Arlington Glass wrong. But what of the dates being in conflict as regard Whitaker who said the limo was stripped down to bare metal in Dearborn on the 25th? How can that be credible?

By "Vaughan's assertion" I reckon you mean Todd and not Ferguson.<g> I don't have enough information to be able to say much about that, other than that if, as Todd said, and there is certainly no reason to doubt Todd, that Martin claimed zero damage at all to the windshield, then Martin clearly was in error as we know there was damage. As I recall, you and Todd were going to get together so he could give you a copy of the document. Can one of you post a complete cite, in context, of what Martin was asked and his response in that Garrison interview?

Thanks,

Barb :-)

Barb:

Thanks. To address the latter first, Yes, I was referring to Todd . I have not yet seen the interview but will be glad to share info when I do if Todd does not post it. I am not certain what you are suggesting how Whitaker could not be credible? If the vehicle was flown at night to Dearborn on the eve of the 24th you are aware that there is NO ONE being reported to have had contact with the limousine o nthe evening of the 24th and the 25th in Washington D.C. What dates are in conflict in regards to Whitaker?? I dpologize but I don't understand what you mean by that? There is no conflict. A good question might be WHY did they strip the vehicle down to metal? There is a possibility. Were you aware that there were rumors that there was a possibility of a bullet hole in the floorpan of the vehicle? It greatly concerned the FBI and they even issued a memo that they were concerned that U.S.News and World Reports (I believe) was going to publish a story. EVERYTHING fits with Whitaker's account! For more info I might refer people to Doug Hornes observations in Volume 5 p.1549.

How and why did Ferguson get the date wrong (other than to mask the record)? It was an easy date to relate to. It was the day of Kennedy's funeral. Please respond as I am puzzled about what you mean theat dates were in conflict with Whitaker and we can then proceed in small chunks as you desired with the questions raised in my long posting. Again I truly appreciate your willingness to address these issues in a constructive forum in defending the criticisms I have of yours, Jerry's and Thompsons article concluding there was no hole in the windshield and whoaccepted the premises of your article may have their own questions and be willing to raise them here. I hope we can continue to move forward.

My best,

Doug Weldon

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Have either of you changed your opinions about the credibility of Nick Prencipe? If not, what questions do you still have. I have many communications from the late Nick Prencipe and it is likely I can respond to most questions in his own words.

Hi Doug,

I thank you for sending me the audio CD of your first interview with Mr. Prencipe. I have listened to it twice. I do believe whenever Mr. Prencipe's story can be told in his own words it is best, as it makes it quite clear what he says happened ... and when ... and where.

A little chronology ...

March 2000: Pamela McElwain-Brown conducted a phone interview with Prencipe; I do not have the exact date, nor have I heard that interview.

April 16, 2000: You interviewed Prencipe by phone, and that is the interview you recently sent me.

At the time of your interview, Prencipe spoke well of Pamela and did not seem to have any issues with her regarding her interview with him, anything he had told her, etc.

In fact, you referred to Pamela's interview when you were speaking to Prencipe, telling him you had listened it, as I recall. I was surprised that you rather led with what you knew he had told Pamela rather than just asking him to tell you what happened the evening of the assassination. And while the topic of him seeing Greer that evening, having the conversation and then what he says he did at the WH garage later that evening is just a very few minutes of your hour long conversation, he confirmed to you what he had told Pamela about seeing, shaking hands with and speaking to Bill Greer on West Executive Ave the evening of the assassination. Prencipe does refer to it as having happened that evening by saying, "Greer said to me that night." He also repeated that Greer had told that shots had been coming at them from all directions, with a shot even coming through the windshield. Prencipe also confirmed that it was sometime that night .... Nov 22nd ... that he went to the WH garage and looked at the limo windshield.

He told you that when he went to the WHG to see the limo, there were "people milling all around" in there "all over the place"; he said, "As far as I am concerned it was a clean hole." [in the windshield] .... he also said "it was quite possible that there was fragmentation." ... and he said "he only got a glance at it" [ said this several times in your conversation] and something about that being because he had to get that tarp he'd pulled up to see the "hole" back down. He also made these comments:

"I didn't say it was a bullet hole, I said there was a hole in the windshield," and when you questioned him about that, he said, "It looked like a bullet hole." You did elicit a 100% confidence level statement from him that he had seen a perforating hole. When it came to *where* on the windshield he saw that hole .... and he placed it low on the passenger side, "a couple inches above the frame" [from the bottom of the windshield]... I was frankly amazed that instead of repeating the confidence level exercise without infecting him, you instead informed him that other witnesses had placed the hole they saw elsewhere and asked him if he could possibly be in error about the location. Another exchange was when you asked him the size of the hole. He thought for a few seconds and then said that the hole was about the size of his little finger, "like a pencil." And your response was, not a question, but a statement, "A little bigger than a pencil." And he agreed.

I have seen different versions of the garage scene .... nobody there, Greer & Kellerman there, several people there, pulling the tarp up alone vs along with someone else, etc. Which is troubling, but is not the prime problem with his story.

I thought something Prencipe said right at the end of your conversation was interesting. He said something about how could anybody think Greer drove the body from Andrews to Bethesda since we know that the body was flown by helicopter to Walter Reed and a motorcade later went from there. This tells me a couple of things ....

- perhaps Pamela had already mentioned a time conflict to him involving Greer

- he thought it was not a problem because he clearly believed he knew the body had gone by helicopter

- he may have made this last minute comment/quasi question to see what you would say about that, but you sort of yeah-yeahed him and said nothing about Greer driving the ambulance from Andrews to Bethesda on national television. I don't know that you were even aware of that at the time.

July 2000: Prencipe is not happy with Pamela any longer, expresses frustration to her in emails, on which you were bcc'd ... which were given to Bernice at some point in time and posted here on the Ed Forum in July 2008.

Those emails are important ... and give us the exact details of what he first claimed ... and show us that when he realized there was some sort of a timing problem with Greer, the details of his story began to grow a bit vague and change.

From: NPRINCE9@juno.com

To: pamel

Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 07:18:41 -0400

Subject: Re: QUESTION

Message-ID: <20000703.072039.-3702699.0.NPRINCE9@juno.com>

Pam

I will answer this in several parts

First of all --If I had not been on duty--you can bet that I would have

been on my way home.

I was at the command post all evening and was in contact with my excort

men at Andrews AFB--I was aware of every thing that was taking

place--from that distance--it was only in ref to what my boys were doing.

During the period that I was there--and this was not too long after the

plane had brought the family back, I noticed Bill standing in the

street--west executive ave--only about 50-60 feet or so from me. I went

to him and we shook hands and thats when he made his statement to me.

I resumed my activity and I heard the transmissions re the escort of the

limo to the garage. Later--and I cant pin it down to any specific

minute, I went to the garage--it was not that far away. There were still

some people around and I just walked in--nobody stopped me or paid any

attention to me--all those guys in the SS and State dept. etc knew me and

were used to me being in many places at many times.

From the best of my rec. there was someone else interested in seeing that

w shield and we saw it together and

there WAS a hole in it..................

Nick

From: NPRINCE9@juno.com

To: pamelam@xxxxxxxxx

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:06:01 -0400

Subject: Re: reply

Message-ID: <20000707.080612.-3697521.1.NPRINCE9@juno.com>

Pam

I try to be as helpful as I can, but I am a bit upset at some of the

choice of words I note from time to time. When you state that you will

follow up and see what makes sense, I dont follow this line of thinking.

I knew the limo when I saw it, I sure saw it many times and even sat in

it. There was someone else in the process of lifing the tarp from its

partially lifted position, as I recall. And I did see a bullet hole, so

if there was a bullet hole, or damage to another one of the cars, there

is a new track to follow.

I do not remember what time I got home that night, or the next morning, I

have no idea what time it was.

My interest in ALL available facts in this are similar to others, I weigh

whatever I see, hear or read for my own judgements, something I have been

doing for the most part of my 84 years.

I was not aware that you were writing a book on this. so I can wait for

some the queries I made.

Regards

NICK

Excerpt from an e-mail from Rich DellaRosa, posted on the yahoo discussion group by Fetzer, April 8, 2009:

In this matter, I refer to Nick Principe, a DC police captain assigned

to the White House since the days of FDR until his retirement. This

was a man who had an office on West Executive Dr and who had more or

less free access to the White House and the White House garage. It

was Nick who drove the lead car in JFK's funeral procession.

In my many exchanges I found Nick to be an honest, upstanding guy who

wished to tell us what he knew and proceeded to do so. He was brought

to our attention by Irv Heineman who was a forum member for years. I

exchanged emails with Nick right up until about a week before his

death. Nick also assisted Doug Weldon in his research.

Nick went to the White House garage when the limo was returned from

Dallas. He reported that the car was pretty shot up. He noted a

through and through hole in the windshield, the dent in the chrome

strip on the dash board, etc. Nick assured me that the windshield had

a hole large enough to pass a pencil through it. (I seem to recall

that he actually did so, but I no longer have that email due to a disk

crash years ago). Nick also indicated that from the beveling in the

laminated windshield he knew whatever made the hole was traveling from

the outside in.

Nick was on friendly terms with many of the SS White House detail. As

he viewed the limo, he asked Greer and Kellerman what had happened in

Dallas. It was Kellerman who replied "Nick, they were shooting at us

from all directions!" And further "That it was like a damned shooting

gallery in Dallas." Greer agreed.

This last is hearsay from Rich DellaRosa, who says Nick related this info to him, and that

they spoke just a week before Prencipe passed away. But the first two, above, were written

by Prencipe himself. I think you posted an e or comment from Prencipe where he noted that

up to midnight would be that evening to him. Unfortunately, up til midnight does not fit within

the time box he himself set out in the first email, above, nor would it resolve the time conflict

his story has with Greer.

Greer, Kellerman, Jackie and the casket were all on AF-1 which arrived at Andrews at

6pm (going with round numbers here).

The C-130 carrying the limo arrived at Andrews at 8pm. By 9pm the limo had already been

escorted to the WH garage, had been parked in a bay and covered with a tarp.

So Prencipe himself says he saw Greer on West Executive Ave sometime after 6 pm, but before 9pm,

more likely before 8 pm as Prencipe said he listened to the transmissions about

having the limo escorted back to the WH garage after he spoke to Greer.

Greer's whereabouts are known for that entire time period and beyond that night. For much of Prencipe's critical

time period, Greer was on national television helping unload the casket from the plane, helping load it into the

ambulance, and then driving that ambulance in a well televised procession to Bethesda. Then helping unload the casket at the morgue loading dock at 8pm and being present at the autopsy, not just by his own account but by others as well, all night. He then drove JFK to the WH for the last time in the wee hours, after 0330, on 11-23.

Are you familiar with the report/interview introduced during Greer's WC testimony ... an interview of Greer and Kellerman conducted by S & O on 11-22 ... S & O took advantage of having the 2 SS agents from the limo there at Bethesda that night and interviewed them during that time.

You had a very congenial conversation with Prencipe. He clearly enjoyed telling war stories from his days on the park police, which is fine. You both seemed to enjoy exchanging ideas on the assassination ... and Prencipe clearly had done some reading on assorted theories. But no matter how sincere someone sounds, alarm bells have to go off when their story just flat out conflicts with known facts. This was the first time you had interviewed Prencipe, yet, at the end of the conversation, you told him you found him credible ... did you not know the evidence about what Greer was doing that night, and without knowing that info, how could you conclude Prencipe's story was credible? Prencipe made Greer a central point in his story.

Have I changed my position on Prencipe's credibility? No, I have not. His story, as he himself framed it, is in direct conflict with the documented whereabouts and activities of Greer that night. I don't see any wiggle room for anyone to be able to consider his story, as he himself told it, as that of a credible witness.

By the way, did you ever follow up on the death of Greer's wife? Prencipe told you he and Greer would talk, about how Greer's wife had cancer, and how Greer had told him when she had died. You were clearly taken aback by that, noting that Greer had preceded his wife in death. When were you able to confirm Ethel Greer died?

Bests regards, sorry it took me so long to respond to the Prencipe question ...

Barb :-)

[Jack White]

Tom Wilson FOUND TWO HOLES in the windshield...the second one on the passenger side, if I recall correctly.

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Barb:

Thanks. To address the latter first, Yes, I was referring to Todd . I have not yet seen the interview but will be glad to share info when I do if Todd does not post it. I am not certain what you are suggesting how Whitaker could not be credible? If the vehicle was flown at night to Dearborn on the eve of the 24th you are aware that there is NO ONE being reported to have had contact with the limousine o nthe evening of the 24th and the 25th in Washington D.C. What dates are in conflict in regards to Whitaker?? I dpologize but I don't understand what you mean by that? There is no conflict. A good question might be WHY did they strip the vehicle down to metal? There is a possibility. Were you aware that there were rumors that there was a possibility of a bullet hole in the floorpan of the vehicle? It greatly concerned the FBI and they even issued a memo that they were concerned that U.S.News and World Reports (I believe) was going to publish a story. EVERYTHING fits with Whitaker's account! For more info I might refer people to Doug Hornes observations in Volume 5 p.1549.

How and why did Ferguson get the date wrong (other than to mask the record)? It was an easy date to relate to. It was the day of Kennedy's funeral. Please respond as I am puzzled about what you mean theat dates were in conflict with Whitaker and we can then proceed in small chunks as you desired with the questions raised in my long posting. Again I truly appreciate your willingness to address these issues in a constructive forum in defending the criticisms I have of yours, Jerry's and Thompsons article concluding there was no hole in the windshield and whoaccepted the premises of your article may have their own questions and be willing to raise them here. I hope we can continue to move forward.

My best,

Doug Weldon

Yes, I am aware of no activity on the 25th .... it was funeral day and declared a National Day of Mourning. The conflict is between the limo being stripped down to bare metal in Dearborn, MI on the 25th (Ford was operating that day?) and Arlington Glass and Ferguson being at the WHG and replacing the windshield in that limo on the 26th. I do see that as a conflict.

I am aware of rumors of a bullet hole in the car. I know Frazier etal searched for bullet holes when they examined the car, and, as I recall, Canning wanted the trunk and behind the seat area searched for possible bullet holes.

Do you believe there was some urgency to squirrel the limo away to Dearborn secretly to search for some bullet hole ... by Ford factory workers rather than by the FBI or SS in the WHG???

By the way, I forgot to ask you in my response about not being surprised to see "no perforaation" reported on the windshield. Do you still find that as some odd, perhaps even sinister, notation?

Bests,

Barb :-)

[William Plumlee]

EXCELLENT, Doug. I am with you! There WAS a hole. It very likely came from the south knoll.

The government hid the hole and tried to produce windshields with cracks but no hole.

I agree with ALL of your research, but am not 100 percent sure that the windshield bullet was

the throat bullet, because there is no evidence to support a bullet in the throat...since none

(that we know of) was found.

Jack

Jack:

I do not disagree with you but I believe there was an entrance wound to Kennedy's throat LIKELY caused by the shot through the windshield. Mantik speculates that a glass fragment caused by the bullet from the windshield may have caused that entrance wound. It is a reasonable hypothethiis.

Best,

Doug

Hi Doug

Quick question. Where would the bullet have ended up theoretically if it did miss according to Mantik's hypo? Would it have wound up entering some structure within the limousine or missed all occupants and limo altogether and flew off behind the motorcade?

Cheers

Lee

Lee:

Thank you. Mantik would have to answer that. I believe there are many potential possibilites including that a bullet did enter the throat and exited the back. Robert Groden had told me that he always believed that the back wound was an exit wound. However, I do not have a definitive answer and have always stated that I believed that I could prove that a bullet was fired through the front of the windshield with the "likely" result that it caused the wound to the throat. It is interesting to note Nick Prencipe's account of Wiliam Greer's statement to Nick that night, "Nick ,you should have been there. Shots were coming from everywhere and one came through the windshield and almost hit me." With making one assumption, that is that the person was trying to hit Kennedy, and if Greer was correct, the hole would have been in the vicinity of Altgen's 6 and would have had to have been fired from the vicinity of the south side of the overpass. Josiah, yes, I believe that Frazier and the FBI did describe the area correctly, but unlike Taylor of the Secret Service, not only omitted the mention of the hole but took the most unusual step of describing the negative and mentioning that there was no hole. In thirty one years of viewing police reports I have never seen one mention something that was not there. As can be seen in my youtube presentation from 1999 the negative could have been described ad infinitum, i.e., there were no crayon marks, grass stains, etc. found.

Best,

Doug Weldon

Doug for what its worth. Some years ago Jay harrison mentioned that he had documentation that a shot did indeed hit the windshield and he also stated he had proof that another shot was fired from the south parking lot which missed and ended up in the grass on the N/E side of the north knoll. As a result of those conversations Jim Marrs meet with me in the Plaza where I scanned with a metal detector looking for the bullet allegedly fired from the south parking lot. Perhaps you might like to ask Jim Marrs about that day and the safe house apartment building behind the Beckley rooming house, which we also visited that day. Jim and Jay met, sometime later in Austin, at Harrison's place where Jay told me he showed Marrs the documentation which proved the windshield shot and the south parking lot missed shot. Jay was very proud of this find and told me he wanted to share this find with Marrs. Jim and I met at Jay's place in Austin where Jay had all his research files of which he went over with Jim. Also Jay had just met with Nigel Turner in Dallas and again in Austin. I am not sure if the south shot documentation was told or shown to Nigel. This date was shortly after Mary Ferrel had past away.

[Doug Weldon]

Barb:

Thanks. To address the latter first, Yes, I was referring to Todd . I have not yet seen the interview but will be glad to share info when I do if Todd does not post it. I am not certain what you are suggesting how Whitaker could not be credible? If the vehicle was flown at night to Dearborn on the eve of the 24th you are aware that there is NO ONE being reported to have had contact with the limousine o nthe evening of the 24th and the 25th in Washington D.C. What dates are in conflict in regards to Whitaker?? I dpologize but I don't understand what you mean by that? There is no conflict. A good question might be WHY did they strip the vehicle down to metal? There is a possibility. Were you aware that there were rumors that there was a possibility of a bullet hole in the floorpan of the vehicle? It greatly concerned the FBI and they even issued a memo that they were concerned that U.S.News and World Reports (I believe) was going to publish a story. EVERYTHING fits with Whitaker's account! For more info I might refer people to Doug Hornes observations in Volume 5 p.1549.

How and why did Ferguson get the date wrong (other than to mask the record)? It was an easy date to relate to. It was the day of Kennedy's funeral. Please respond as I am puzzled about what you mean theat dates were in conflict with Whitaker and we can then proceed in small chunks as you desired with the questions raised in my long posting. Again I truly appreciate your willingness to address these issues in a constructive forum in defending the criticisms I have of yours, Jerry's and Thompsons article concluding there was no hole in the windshield and whoaccepted the premises of your article may have their own questions and be willing to raise them here. I hope we can continue to move forward.

My best,

Doug Weldon

Yes, I am aware of no activity on the 25th .... it was funeral day and declared a National Day of Mourning. The conflict is between the limo being stripped down to bare metal in Dearborn, MI on the 25th (Ford was operating that day?) and Arlington Glass and Ferguson being at the WHG and replacing the windshield in that limo on the 26th. I do see that as a conflict.

I am aware of rumors of a bullet hole in the car. I know Frazier etal searched for bullet holes when they examined the car, and, as I recall, Canning wanted the trunk and behind the seat area searched for possible bullet holes.

Do you believe there was some urgency to squirrel the limo away to Dearborn secretly to search for some bullet hole ... by Ford factory workers rather than by the FBI or SS in the WHG???

By the way, I forgot to ask you in my response about not being surprised to see "no perforaation" reported on the windshield. Do you still find that as some odd, perhaps even sinister, notation?

Bests,

Barb :-)

Barb:

Yes, I find "no perforation" to be highly unusual. I have never seen anything like it. Unless someone raised the issue of a hole being there, which they knew was happening at Parkland, it is beyond belief that they would do that. Charles Taylor Jr. was obviously not part of the "reindeer games" that night and somehow with all the rush in the coverup his report slipped through. Both the FBI and Ferguson, a layman did the same thing. If Ferguson was just going off the FBI report why did he not use the same terminology " Hole" and why did he describe the location of the damage in a different place? Yes, it is highly surprising but the Ford Motor Company was operating On November 25, 1963 when virtually the whole country and the other automobile companies were closed. They were closed for two hours in the afternoon which would have been a great opportunity to truck the limo out of there. I have NO doubt that the limo was there. Please understand that I am only speculating why the vehicle was stripped to bare metal. The response from Whitaker was "That's what they did." I definitely think the limo was in Dearborn to change the windshield. Don't forget that Ferguson tried to claim that Arlington glass was there on the 25th. Absent the garage logs there woud have been no documentation to contradict Ferguson's false account. Do you believe Ferguson drove 520 miles on Dec. 20, 1963 in a vehicle that got maybe

6-7 mpg in the most recognized vehicle in the world when Hess and Eisenhardt said the vehicle was in Cinncinati on December 13. When other questions are answered I am going to tell you some things that are phony about Arlington Glass on November 26 that I have never discussed. I have only speculated about Ford searching and repairing a hole in the floor pan to explain why the limo may have been "stripped" but I do know that the FBI was in a panic about a magazine publishing something about it. After all the information you have examined have you started to see something amiss? When more questions are answered I will come back to Arlington Glass. Certainly, there must be people on this forum who supported your article. I welcome any supporters of the article's position to contribute to this thread and will answer any questions as long as they agree to respond to any statements and questions I raise. I understand you are going to take this in small chunks but I continue to hope you will address all of the questions I raised in the long post of this thread. Let's get to truth.

Best,

Doug

[William Plumlee]

imo doug and ]all that would be a great source if we could have threads of both tosh's info of the south side of elm thread and this one to contine..there has been much information being released and offered by doug in this thread am i now surprised it has been mucked up..no not in the least it really was going too well, seems that always happens not faultng anyone but that does seem to happen often...please continue tosh if possible.and if you do want your information out there if not it cannot be looked into any further can it..??.tosh thanks for your information it is always of great interest to many others....why pack up your bags so quickly AND LEAVE STAY AND stART A NEW THREAD COPY AND PASTE YOUR INFO AND TEACH THOSE WHO DO WANT TO ACCESS YOUR INFO, or let them down, your call..best b..

In your picture: Notice the upper slight curve in Elm Street. The Limo had turned slightly to the left with the street, putting it a few degrees to the south.., not due west as some have claimed. The Limo was pointing directly toward the south side of the underpass. Where was JFK facing at that moment? If he had also turned his head slightly to his left this would line up with the alleged south side kill shot and the windshield hole.

Bernice:

I agree about Tosh I just do not want to lose focus on the thread I have going. That is why I opened a new thread to begin with. Plumlee is extremely important! I hope he will watch the you-tube presentation and see what a sniper would have viewed from the south side of the underpass with my video. I do want to get the questions I addressed in my long posting and I believe the dialog and responses will be important.

Take care,

Doug

Bernice...Threads are ALL MUCKED UP on purpose by certain persons who are here not to enlighten but to obfuscate.

I name no names. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Jack

YES JACK I KNOW OF THE MUCKERS CLUB AND THEIR ROTTEN FRUIT...THANKS KATHY FOR GOING TO THE TROUBLE Of ARRANGING A SEPARATE THREAD IMO THAT'S GREAT SO As the separate but similar in some areas of information can be perused.to see what gels and comes together.....b again excuse caps many thanks...

Edited February 20, 2010 by William Plumlee

[Bernice Moore]

In your picture: Notice the upper slight curve in Elm Street. The Limo had turned slightly to the left with the street, putting it a few degrees to the south.., not due west as some have claimed. The Limo was pointing directly toward the south side of the underpass. Where was JFK facing at that moment? If he had also turned his head slightly to his left this would line up with the alleged south side kill shot and the windshield hole.

would that not be at the altgens...see below altgens then and now and there's the curve tosh...and martin hindrich's coloured..version...b

Edited February 20, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

186) Mortician Thomas Evan Robinson: re throat wound..

a) HSCA taped interview conducted by Andy Purdy and Jim Conzelman 1/12/77 [RIF#189-10089-10178; drawing: 180-10089-10179---see also "Killing Kennedy" by H.E.L., p. 345 , "Bloody Treason" by Noel Twyman, p. 240, and "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor, p. 34]---Purdy: "Approximately where was this wound located?" "Directly behind the back of his head." Purdy: "Approximately between the ears or higher up?" "No, I would say pretty much between them.": Robinson’s drawing depicts a defect directly in the central, lower rear portion of the skull. Purdy: "Could you tell how large the opening had been caused by the bullets?" "A good bit of the bone had been blown away. There was nothing there to piece together, so I would say probably about [the size of] a small orange." Purdy: "Could you give us an estimate of inches and the nature of the shape?" "Three." Purdy: "And the shape?" "Circular." Purdy: "Was it fairly smooth or fairly ragged?" "Ragged."; "I remember the bones of the skull and face badly shattered." Purdy: "Where on the face were they shattered, which of the bones?" "You cannot see that from the outside. This is looking through the opening that the physicians had made at the back of the skull."; "I can remember the probe. The probe of all this whole area. It was about an eighteen-inch piece of metal that we used." Purdy; "Do you feel they probed the head or they probed the neck?" "It was at the base of the head where most of the damage was done, the things that we had to worry about."; "Somehow I feel like there was some-thing found in the thorax…I think that they found a piece of metal, a piece of bullet."; did not see any small wound of entry in the back of the head; de-scribed a "nasty looking" tracheotomy; He also said there was a little wound, described as a hole of about a quarter-inch in diameter, on the right side of the forehead up near the hairline. Robinson said that he "…probably put a little wax in it."; Purdy: "Were you the one that was responsible for closing these wounds in the head?" "Well, we all worked on it. Once the body was em-balmed arterially and they brought a piece of heavy duty rubber, again to fill this area (area in the back of the head)…" Purdy: "O.K., you had to close the wound in the back of the head using rubber…Were there any other wounds on the head other than the little one in the right temple area, and the big one in the back?" "That's all." [!]; "Putting the head into the pillow of the casket would have hidden everything."; Purdy: "You said later, when you read some things about the assassination or the autopsy, you heard or read some-things [sic] which struck you as incorrect. What would those things be?" "The time the people moved (autopsy). The body was taken…and the body never came…lots of little things like that.";

jfk medical reference part 3 bethesda palamara

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v4n2/v4n2part3.pdf

b

Edited February 20, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

Tosh see # 30 below shards of glass Dr/David Mantik...b

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/fetzerexpandedx.htm

30 Even the mortician observed that the deceased had a massive defect to the back of his head, a small entry wound to the right temple, several small puncture wounds to the face, and a wound to the back about five to six inches below the collar. (See, for example, Fetzer (2003), pp. 8-9.) This information should have been easily available. Even The Warren Report describes the holes in the shirt and jacket he was wearing as "5 3/8 inches below the top of the collar" in the jacket and as "5 3/4 inches below the top of the collar" in the shirt, contradicting its own declared conclusions (Warren 1964, p. 92). David W. Mantik, M.D., Ph.D., believes that the small puncture wounds were caused by shards of glass when the bullet that hit his throat passed through the windshield.

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Yes, I find "no perforation" to be highly unusual. I have never seen anything like it. Unless someone raised the issue of a hole being there, which they knew was happening at Parkland, it is beyond belief that they would do that.

Doug, the *windshield* itself raised the issue of the possibility of a through and through hole possibly being there. The windshield was damaged in a shooting ... it had a stellate cracking pattern. It would have been ridiculous, not to mention incompetent, to *not* look for, and report, whether or not there was a perforation there.

Charles Taylor Jr. was obviously not part of the "reindeer games" that night and somehow with all the rush in the coverup his report slipped through. Both the FBI and Ferguson, a layman did the same thing. If Ferguson was just going off the FBI report why did he not use the same terminology " Hole" and why did he describe the location of the damage in a different place? Yes, it is highly surprising but the Ford Motor Company was operating On November 25, 1963 when virtually the whole country and the other automobile companies were closed. They were closed for two hours in the afternoon which would have been a great opportunity to truck the limo out of there. I have NO doubt that the limo was there. Please understand that I am only speculating why the vehicle was stripped to bare metal. The response from Whitaker was "That's what they did." I definitely think the limo was in Dearborn to change the windshield. Don't forget that Ferguson tried to claim that Arlington glass was there on the 25th. Absent the garage logs there woud have been no documentation to contradict Ferguson's false account. Do you believe Ferguson drove 520 miles on Dec. 20, 1963 in a vehicle that got maybe

6-7 mpg in the most recognized vehicle in the world when Hess and Eisenhardt said the vehicle was in Cinncinati on December 13. When other questions are answered I am going to tell you some things that are phony about Arlington Glass on November 26 that I have never discussed. I have only speculated about Ford searching and repairing a hole in the floor pan to explain why the limo may have been "stripped" but I do know that the FBI was in a panic about a magazine publishing something about it. After all the information you have examined have you started to see something amiss? When more questions are answered I will come back to Arlington Glass. Certainly, there must be people on this forum who supported your article. I welcome any supporters of the article's position to contribute to this thread and will answer any questions as long as they agree to respond to any statements and questions I raise. I understand you are going to take this in small chunks but I continue to hope you will address all of the questions I raised in the long post of this thread. Let's get to truth.

Best,

Doug

On Taylor, I don't really have anything to add aside from what we included in our article. What happened and why was covered thoroughly there, imo.

The rest in this post seems to be mostly a jumble of speculation mixed with a few claims and hints of more info to come - but quite short on actual information or even explanation - all on thigs that go beyond the scope of our article. As you quoted us in your initial post in this thread:

Our purpose, as stated in the intro to our article, was to share what had been discussed and learned in a discussion that took place on a yahoo group. We dealt with what had been offered as proofs by Mr. Fetzer who brought others into it, like David Lifton, Rich, White, Healy, etc. We dealt with those issues, those witnesses. And especially given the new documents regarding Taylor we decided to write it all up and share it elsewhere... like on the Ed Forum.

You follow that quote with this comment: "If this was a summarization of the exchange on the group then I have no problem."

Great! Because the article was what we said it was in our intro ... nothing more, nothing less. We didn't go to Dearborn or Ohio ... that whole weird little world didn't come up in the discussions that led to our article at all, from what I recall.

Am I interested? Sure ... I'd like to understand the theory and what supports it. But without knowing that, I can't really comment on it much.

It all seems to come down to this Whitaker vs everyone and everything else. At this point, I have more questions than answers on what you have asked about here, Doug.

Let me ask you this .... what is the basis for this entire scenario about the limo being spirited away to Michigan and a false trail of dummy documents and activities .... with many players ... put in place? What was the genesis of all this .... and .... what actual documentation supports it? I expect that Whitaker is the unnamed mystery witness whose claims were the basis of your Minnesota presentation. Can you give me just a concise, clear rendering of what is the claim, your reasoning for believing it (why does it even make sense to you that this would be done?) ... and list some of the documentation you've been able to find that supports it.

BTW, it does seem a tad odd to me that they would drive the limo to Michigan rather than have it flown there ... but weirder things happen all the time. Was any reason given for the drive vs fly?

Trying to get a handle on your theory, Doug. Willing to answer questions about what I think about it .... but I need some clear info about it before I can begin to do that. Again, this is beyond the scope of our article.

Best,

Barb :-)

[Josiah Thompson]

alt

The most direct evidence we have concerning the windshield is photographic.... the undamaged windshield apparent in Altgens #6 and the windshield damage apparent in Altgens #7. The damage in Altgens #7 matches the location and character of both Frazier's notes and the photo he took of the windshield in the early morning hours of November 23rd. The results of Frazier's examination of the windshield is echoed in various reports from percipient witnesses including Secret Service agents who passed their fingers over the windshield to determine whether there was a perforation. All of this is very direct evidence from Noveber 22nd and 23rd and indicates the windshield was struck a glancing blow from the rear leaving a lead smear on the interior surface of the windshield. Are Altgens' photos to be disbelieved? Have they been altered? What about Frazier's photo? Was it altered or was it just faked up after the fact? Was Frazier and his crime scene search unit all part of some consiracy to hide the fact of a hole in he windshield?

You say a lot about Whitaker but very little about the evidence from November 22nd and 23rd that has the most probative significance. Or does "probative significance" not matter anymore once we are in the hall of mirrors where ever widening conspiracy makes white black and black white?

For starters, how about telling us what you make of Altgens #6?

Josiah Thompson