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Gil Jesus

Delivery Receipts for the "Hidell" weapons -- where are they ?

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Postal regulation 846.53a indicated that delivery receipts had to be filled out for firearms shipped through the mail. It also indicated that shippers were required to fill out statements describing the weapons shipped and to whom. This regulation required that those records be maintained by the US Post Office for a period of 4 years.

http://i55.tinypic.com/vpujp3.jpg

Does anyone know where the forms are for the "Hidell" purchases of the rifle and handgun ?

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Gil - could one of the reasons these items are not available is that they were used/siezed as part of Dodd's investigation?

Or they were conveniently "lost" since someone else must have picked up the rifle?

I've read about this before and will search the forum for more info... how realistic is Oswald working via the FBI on this type of investigation?

DJ

Dodd was elected as a Democrat to the House of Representatives in 1952, and served two terms. He lost a Senate election in 1956 to Prescott S. Bush, but was elected in 1958 to Connecticut's other Senate seat and then re-elected in 1964.

Before becoming a U.S. senator, Dodd was hired to lobby for Guatemala in the United States for $50,000 a year by dictator Carlos Castillo Armas.[16] According to the North American Congress on Latin America, Dodd "had perhaps the coziest relationship with the Castillo Armas government."[17] After a short trip to Guatemala in 1955, Dodd urged the House of Representatives to increase aid to the Central American country. Dodd's amendment passed and Guatemala received $15 million of US aid in 1956.[18]

In 1961, Dodd visited the Congo to investigate the civil war caused by the secession of the province of Katanga. In his memoirs, the United Nations Representative in the Congo, Brian Urquhart, described Dodd as a "vain and silly man" who "knew nothing of Africa."[19]

As chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency, Dodd worked to restrict the purchase of mail order handguns, and later shotguns and rifles. These efforts culminated in the Gun Control Act of 1968, which Dodd introduced.[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_J._Dodd

http://www.famoustexans.com/leeharveyoswald.htm

"In 1963, as head of the Senate's Juvenile Delinquency Subcommittee, Senator Thomas Dodd of Connecticut was experimenting with ordering arms from mail order houses in an attempt to gather information allowing Congress to stem unregulated traffic. Senator Dodd instituted the program on behalf of Colt and other small firearms producers in Connecticut who complained of foreign imports. Oswald might have participated in this program. Dodd, a former FBI agent and long-time J. Edgar Hoover loyalist, was also a leading member of the Cuba Lobby (which grew out of the right-wing, red-hunting, China Lobby) through which he was in touch with some of the same Cuban-exile mercenaries as Oswald. He was also investigating the FPCC in which Oswald may have been an infiltrator.

According to a standard textbook by criminologist Charles O'Hara, we can see how Oswald, working in a legitimate undercover capacity for Dodd, could have easily been manipulated into simultaneous conspiracies involving a Mannlicher-Carcano." link

Far-fetched you say? Read on.

"Two of the gun mail-order houses Dodd's subcommittee was investigating were the ones from which Oswald allegedly ordered his Smith and Wesson .38 revolver (Seaport Traders of Los Angeles) and his Mannlicher-Carcano carbine (Klein's of Chicago). Oswald ordered his pistol two days before Dodd's subcommittee began hearings on the matter on January 29, 1963. The subcommittee's sample statistics later showed a purchase in Texas made from Seaport Traders. One of the groups being investigated for firearm purchases was one whose members Oswald had in his address book, the American Nazi Party. One of the investigators looking into interstate firearms sales at this time was Manuel Pena, the Los Angeles police lieutenant who was later one of the pivotal officers investigating Robert Kennedy's assassination. It was Pena who traced Oswald's telescopic sight to a California gun shop. And one of the primary culprits, robbing domestic manufacturers of profits, was the Mannlicher-Carcano.

On the day Kennedy was assassinated, Dodd considered the tragedy a personal victory, bragging about his friendship with the "new" administration, grieving only over 'the damage he [Kennedy] did to us in three years.' " (same source as above. See"link".)

Thomas Dodd was censored by the Senate in 1967. Thomas was caught embezzeling campaign money.

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Good info, David.

This makes Dodd's son (and also Senator) Christopher's longtime friendship with Ted Kennedy all the more ironic.

When they were out carousing together, was Chris keeping an eye on his good "friend?"

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Does anyone know where the forms are for the "Hidell" purchases of the rifle and handgun?

Another day at the office for the Anybody But Oswald conspiracy theorists, I see.

To a CTer, the things we DON'T have in evidence are always much, much more important than the things we DO have in evidence. And, of course, it's always been that way for the ABO conspiracy crowd.

And the things we do have in evidence indicate--beyond all possible doubt--that Lee Oswald ordered, paid for, and was shipped the C2766 rifle from Klein's and the revolver from Seaport Traders.

And it wouldn't make a bit of difference if Forms 2162 & 1508 were in evidence concerning Oswald's gun purchases. Because even if those forms existed, people like Gil Jesus and James DiEugenio would merely be inventing new excuses to consider them ALL FAKE and planted. (Is there ANY doubt at all that this would be the attitude adopted by people like Gilbert and Jim?)

Conspiracists like Gilbert and James do it with EVERY piece of incriminating evidence against Oswald. EVERY piece, without exception.

Why do they do that?

Simple. Because if they don't, they have to admit that their precious patsy was guilty of the two murders he so obviously committed in Dallas.

A great example of this is Waldman Exhibit No. 7. That exhibit--all by itself--shatters the illusions of Gil and Jimbo, because it provides all the information anyone needs to KNOW FOR CERTAIN that Klein's DID receive an order form and a money order in the amount of $21.45 from the purchaser ("A. Hidell", who we all know is really Lee Oswald).

And Waldman 7 also tells us (for all time) that the rifle that Klein's mailed to the customer named Hidell was shipped to a P.O. Box in Dallas that we know was rented by Gil's favorite patsy--L.H. Oswald.

And Waldman 7 also tells us that the rifle Klein's shipped to Hidell/Oswald wasn't just any old rifle -- no, it was Rifle #C2766, which just happens to be the exact rifle that was used to murder President Kennedy. (And if someone wants to resurrect the myth about there being a whole bunch of additional Carcano rifles with the number C2766 on them, they'll get a nice-sized argument from me -- because the fact is: there hasn't been a single additional "C2766" Carcano rifle ever seen by anyone on this planet that we know of. And not only that--I have never even heard of anyone coming forward to say that they have seen ANY TWO Carcanos with the same serial number--regardless of whether it's the number C2766 or ANY OTHER NUMBER they'd care to pick out of a hat. It just hasn't happened. And it never will--because Oswald's C2766 rifle is the only Carcano ever made with that unique number on it. Which is, btw, the whole point of stamping a serial number on an item in the first place--to make it unique.)

So, unless the CTers can prove Waldman #7 is really a phony baloney document, then where does that leave the CTers who continue to want to pretend that Klein's never received payment from Oswald and that Klein's never shipped Rifle C2766 to LHO?

And, of course, nobody has ever come close to proving that Waldman #7 is a fake, and they never will be able to prove such a silly allegation--because Waldman 7 is a real document, with a real "Klein's" logo in the corner, and was verified as such by Klein's Vice President William J. Waldman in his 1964 WC testimony.

WH_Vol21_0364a.jpg

Edited by David Von Pein

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And it wouldn't make a bit of difference if Forms 2162 & 1508 were in evidence concerning Oswald's gun purchases. Because even if those forms existed, people like Gil Jesus and James DiEugenio would merely be inventing new excuses to consider them ALL FAKE and planted. (Is there ANY doubt at all that this would be the attitude adopted by people like Gilbert and Jim?)

Conspiracists like Gilbert and James do it with EVERY piece of incriminating evidence against Oswald. EVERY piece, without exception.

Why do they do that?

Simple. Because if they don't, they have to admit that their precious patsy was guilty of the two murders he so obviously committed in Dallas.

A great example of this is Waldman Exhibit No. 7. That exhibit--all by itself--shatters the illusions of Gil and Jimbo, because it provides all the information anyone needs to KNOW FOR CERTAIN that Klein's DID receive an order form and a money order in the amount of $21.45 from the purchaser ("A. Hidell", who we all know is really Lee Oswald).

And Waldman 7 also tells us (for all time) that the rifle that Klein's mailed to the customer named Hidell was shipped to a P.O. Box in Dallas that we know was rented by Gil's favorite patsy--L.H. Oswald.

And Waldman 7 also tells us that the rifle Klein's shipped to Hidell/Oswald wasn't just any old rifle -- no, it was Rifle #C2766, which just happens to be the exact rifle that was used to murder President Kennedy. (And if someone wants to resurrect the myth about there being a whole bunch of additional Carcano rifles with the number C2766 on them, they'll get a nice-sized argument from me -- because the fact is: there hasn't been a single additional "C2766" Carcano rifle ever seen by anyone on this planet that we know of. And not only that--I have never even heard of anyone coming forward to say that they have seen ANY TWO Carcanos with the same serial number--regardless of whether it's the number C2766 or ANY OTHER NUMBER they'd care to pick out of a hat. It just hasn't happened. And it never will--because Oswald's C2766 rifle is the only Carcano ever made with that unique number on it. Which is, btw, the whole point of stamping a serial number on an item in the first place--to make it unique.)

So, unless the CTers can prove Waldman #7 is really a phony baloney document, then where does that leave the CTers who continue to want to pretend that Klein's never received payment from Oswald and that Klein's never shipped Rifle C2766 to LHO?

And, of course, nobody has ever come close to proving that Waldman #7 is a fake, and they never will be able to prove such a silly allegation--because Waldman 7 is a real document, with a real "Klein's" logo in the corner, and was verified as such by Klein's Vice President William J. Waldman in his 1964 WC testimony.

WH_Vol21_0364a.jpg

Once again, you've elected to dance around the message, shoot the messengers and then try to change the subject.

Can you or can you not produce the required postal forms from the weapons purchases ? These forms are important in proving that the weapons were shipped and received.

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And it wouldn't make a bit of difference if Forms 2162 & 1508 were in evidence concerning Oswald's gun purchases. Because even if those forms existed, people like Gil Jesus and James DiEugenio would merely be inventing new excuses to consider them ALL FAKE and planted. (Is there ANY doubt at all that this would be the attitude adopted by people like Gilbert and Jim?)

Conspiracists like Gilbert and James do it with EVERY piece of incriminating evidence against Oswald. EVERY piece, without exception.

Why do they do that?

Simple. Because if they don't, they have to admit that their precious patsy was guilty of the two murders he so obviously committed in Dallas.

We do it because EVERY PIECE OF EVIDENCE is questionable. We do it becuase there is evidence of phonied police lineups. We do it because there is evidence of tampering, substitution, omission of evidence. We do it because documentation is missing. Affidavits were altered. Witnesses were coaxed, ignored and even threatened. We do it because evidence is missing. We do it because he have no faith in J.Edgar Hoover. AND WE DO IT BECAUSE WE LOVE OUR COUNTRY.

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of you attacking me every time I ask for evidence. You obviously can't discuss the case on its merits or lack thereof and feel the need to ridicule people who ask for evidence or who have questions.

FROM THE FORUM "RULES OF BEHAVIOUR"

(iv) Members should not make personal attacks on other members. Nor should references be made to their abilities as researchers. Most importantly, the motivations of the poster should not be questioned. At all times members should concentrate on what is being said, rather than who is saying it.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2243

Everybody as a right to their opinion, of course, and you are no exception. But you have NO RIGHT to act like an asshole to other posters. I don't expect you to agree with what I say, but I also don't expect you to disrespect me or anyone else by ridiculing us by lumping us together with "people like" us.

The fact is, you don't know anything about me or "people like" me.

There are SERIOUS deficiencies in the evidence in this case, deficiencies that should not be there. We have a RIGHT to ask questions and to demand answers to those questions, whether you like it or not.

From now on, every time you start ridiculing me, I'm going to report your post to the moderators. I hope others do the same.

Edited by Gil Jesus

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And, of course, nobody has ever come close to proving that Waldman #7 is a fake, and they never will be able to prove such a silly allegation--because Waldman 7 is a real document, with a real "Klein's" logo in the corner, and was verified as such by Klein's Vice President William J. Waldman in his 1964 WC testimony.

Waldman 7 is not a REAL DOCUMENT, it is a COPY from a microfilm copy.

Mr. BELIN. ....Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a copy made from our microfilm reader-printer of Dallas, Tex.

( 7 H 366 )

And of course it's a fake. And it's a fake for the same reason the order blank is a fake:

It's got the wrong catalog number for the 40" rifle.

The idiots who faked them obviously didn't know there was a difference in catalog numbers between the 36" rifle and the 40" rifle.

And having Waldman testify to the documents was a charade. He told the WC that the shipper who handled the shipping and receiving wasn't under his supervision at all, but was under the supervision of another Vice-President, Sam Kasper.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W."

Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And that is who?

Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.

Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was.

Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper.

Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now?

Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here.

Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company.

Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

( 7 H 361-362 )

IOW, the handling of the rifle orders wasn't under his supervision.

In fact, Waldman knew so little about the product his company handled, that he said that the order for 91TS rifles had been changed to "91/38EFF".

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. I a date well, I might read everything under the column of description; it says Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; and then cal.--that's for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 mm Italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, then a slash line 38 EFF, and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that date and that description.

Mr. WALDMAN. ....We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962.

( 7 H 362 )

There's no such thing as a 91/38EFF. The "EFF" on the form was short for the word "EFFECTIVE" followed by the date.

http://i56.tinypic.com/25u5mqf.jpg

Waldman wasn't an expert on anything relating to documentation. He didn't even know what the terms on the paperwork meant.

Edited by Gil Jesus

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GIL JESUS SAID:

Waldman 7 is not a REAL DOCUMENT, it is a COPY from a microfilm copy.

DAVID VON PEIN SAYS:

It's a PHOTOGRAPH of a REAL DOCUMENT, Gil. It's as good as having the original document in our hands.

Or would you like to now pretend that the copy of Waldman 7 is a fake and that it does not represent a REAL DOCUMENT at all?

And would you also like to show us proof that Bill Waldman of Klein's is a xxxx when he testified to all kinds of important stuff relating to Exhibit No. 7, including the very important "M.O." marking on that document--which can only indicate one thing: Klein's received a money order for the full amount of $21.45 from "A. Hidell" for the purchase on one Italian carbine.

If you can't do either of the above things, then you've got a problem -- because, as I mentioned previously, Waldman Exhibit 7 is a great document for shooting down all kinds of crazy theories that have been spouted by conspiracy theorists regarding Oswald's 1963 rifle purchase.

GIL JESUS SAID:

And of course it's a fake [Waldman Exhibit No. 7]. And it's a fake for the same reason the order blank is a fake: It's got the wrong catalog number for the 40" rifle.

The idiots who faked them obviously didn't know there was a difference in catalog numbers between the 36" rifle and the 40" rifle.

DVP SAYS:

More nonsense from Gilbert.

You have no proof whatsoever that Waldman 7 is a fake. Nor do you have a speck of proof that the order form that Oswald used to order the weapon is a fake either. To the contrary, the order form has Oswald's own handwriting on it. (Naturally, you think his writing is phony too. Well, go tell that to the handwriting experts who testified for the WC and HSCA.)

The catalog number shown on Waldman #7 is exactly the correct catalog number relating to Oswald's/(Hidell's) March '63 rifle order....so, naturally, that's the exact number that Klein's stamped on the order (probably on March 13, since it was not written in by hand).

When it came time to ship Oswald's 36-inch rifle order seven days after the order form was received by Klein's in Chicago, Klein's undoubtedly realized they were out of stock of the 36-inch rifles, so they shipped him the 40-inch model, which is a model that Klein's had TOTALLY SWITCHED TO by the time of the VERY NEXT Klein's magazine ad.

Gary Mack did some great research on this matter last year (see the direct quote from Gary below), as he dug up copies of all the 1963 Klein's ads that appeared in American Rifleman magazine throughout that calendar year....with Gary discovering that the February ad (which Oswald used to place his order for a 36-inch rifle) was the last ad during the entire year for the 36-inch model carbine. All other ads after February advertised the 40-inch model.

It couldn't be more obvious what happened here: Klein's simply ran out of the 36-inch rifles, so they shipped Oswald the longer 40-inch rifle. I'm guessing that Oswald never even knew the difference.

"I looked up the Klein's ads for 1963 and found that the next issue after February 1963 and all the issues afterward showed the 40" rifle. I don't have my notes here at the house, so the April 1963 issue, which would have mailed in mid-March so the ad had to have been changed prior to that, may be the first with the 40" weapon. So that is exactly what must have happened. Klein's ran out of 36" rifles very quickly and substituted the longer weapon. They may have notified customers ahead of time, but there's no record of that happening." -- Gary Mack; August 17, 2010

-------------------

Gary then wrote me this follow-up e-mail on 8/18/2010:

Date: 8/18/2010 3:28:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time

From: Gary Mack

To: David Von Pein

Dave,

Thanks to The Sixth Floor Museum’s collection, today I examined all

1963 issues of the American Rifleman and here is what I found:

Jan 63 -- p. 61 -- 36” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Feb 63 -- p. 65 -- Same ad as above

Mar 63 -- No ad

Apr 63 -- p. 55 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

May 63 -- Missing pp. 63-66

Jun 63 -- p. 59 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Jul 63 -- p. 67 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.78 -- $19.95 (with scope)

Aug 63 -- p. 79 -- Same ad as above

Sep 63 -- p. 89 -- Same ad as above

Oct 63 -- p. 85 -- Same ad as above

Nov 63 -- No ad

Dec 63 -- No ad

So as I suggested earlier, Oswald ordered the 36” rifle but, probably due to Klein’s running out of stock, he received the 40” model instead. The price remained the same, so Klein’s may have just sent him the newly available model instead. They would certainly accept a return if he didn’t want it.

The Museum’s copy of the May 1963 issue is missing four pages and, since Klein’s ads normally ran in the back half of the magazine, it was likely on one of those pages. But as you can see, the ad for the months before and after May showed the exact same 40” rifle.

I don’t know when the American Rifleman normally went to press, but I would think they’d want the new issue to appear on the newsstands and in subscriber’s mailboxes at or shortly before the beginning of each month. That would mean all ad copy must be ready and in the hands of the publisher at least 30 days ahead of time, maybe more.

If Klein’s ran out of 36” rifles in January, they might not even have enough time to get a corrected ad in by the March deadline. Maybe that’s why there was no ad in the March issue? Perhaps Klein’s sold out of the Carcano and other weapons and just couldn’t update their new ad before the deadline?

Gary Mack

--------------------------------------------

POST-SCRIPT:

BTW, speaking of e-mails from Gary Mack and the subject of Oswald's rifle purchase, I received the following two e-mails from Gary within the last few days:

Subject: RE: Buying the Money Order

Date: 3/12/2011 11:01:42 AM Eastern Standard Time

From: Gary Mack

To: David Von Pein

Dave,

Oswald could have left JCS at any time between 8am and 10:30 IF there was no work for him to do. Oswald was given simple tasks as they came in, so if no orders were waiting, all he could do was sit and wait.....and get paid for doing so.

I assume he'd have to check with his supervisor about taking a few minutes to go to the post office, but his time card certainly does not confirm that he was on the job every single minute. It merely shows that he was at the office and "on the clock" all day.

And maybe, just maybe, he went over there on JCS business? Or perhaps a co-worker - his supervisor? - also needed something from the PO so Oswald went and took advantage of the opportunity? In short, there are many reasons Oswald's PO visit was entirely legitimate.

It would not surprise me to learn that the Main Post Office opened at 7am, but I don't know that to be the case. I'd have to check the 1963 directories, but I sort of remember doing that years ago. Anyway, I can take a look when I get back to the office on Monday.

Gary

--------------------------------------------------

Subject: Main Post Office hours

Date: 3/17/2011 5:28:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time

From: Gary Mack

To: David Von Pein

Hi Dave,

None of the directories at the Museum show the hours at the main post office in Dallas in 1963. However, the USPS online search service shows the main distribution center today opens at 7am (it’s location #4):

http://usps.whitepages.com/post_office/75202

But that building wasn’t there in 1963. The main post office, and presumably the distribution center, was at 400 N. Ervay (location #1) in 1963 and it would likely have had the early business hours. The Ervay PO is the one that was just a few blocks from J-C-S which was located at 522 Browder. According to Google maps, the two are only 8 blocks, or ½ mile, apart [Gary linked to a map here].

Oswald could have walked or run, or probably ridden the bus, since Ervay was a main north-south street. For that matter, he could have bummed a ride from a co-worker.

In short, I don’t see anything that prevents Oswald from getting to the post office, then buying and sending his money order to Klein’s. As to why the envelope is postmarked in a different zone, I have no clue, but there’s no evidence such a practice was out of the ordinary.

Gary

Edited by David Von Pein

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GIL JESUS SAID:

Waldman 7 is not a REAL DOCUMENT, it is a COPY from a microfilm copy.

DAVID VON PEIN SAYS:

It's a PHOTOGRAPH of a REAL DOCUMENT, Gil. It's as good as having the original document in our hands.

Nonsense, it's copy of a copy. Unless you have SEEN the original document, you can't say that Waldman 7 is a REAL document.

Didn't we just go through this about copies vs. original documents regarding the handwriting ?

Yes we did.

Could the FBI have gone to Klein's and asked them to make up shipping papers for examination ? Could they have asked them to write it up as they did normally and to LEAVE OUT the serial number and control number ?

Didn't they supply the FBI with a REPLICA rifle ? Didn't the FBI use replicas for examinations, like they did with the "paper gun sack" ?

Why the hell didn't the WC have ANYONE from the shipping dept testify about those documents ? The best they could do was a Vice President WHO WASN'T EVEN IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND ?

You people make me laugh.

Edited by Gil Jesus

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Easy, Jimbo. You should be saving some of those anti-Mack and anti-Von Pein histrionics for your next laughfest on Anybody But Oswald Radio. Don't you agree?

The fact is, of course, that every single thing Gary Mack said here makes perfect sense. Naturally, Jim "ABO" DiEugenio has to spit on everything uttered by Mr. Mack and drag Gary through the mud--which is just exactly what I knew Delusional DiEugenio would do before he ever did it above.

If somebody were to dig hard enough, I'd be willing to bet that a postal zone mark on an envelope could be found that could be proven to have been different from the zone where the letter had been physically mailed.

And, btw, this is just another (of the hundreds) of examples of DiEugenio's "Let's Frame Oswald" plotters doing things that only a total retard would want to do -- i.e., they are framing Oswald, per the conspiracy mongers, with a fake money order that was supposedly purchased at the main post office in Dallas.

So what do these brainless morons do this time to clog the works? They decide to have the envelope stamped with a different postal zone from the one where the money order was purchased.

Brilliant!

The plotters could just as easily have stamped the "fake" envelope with the "fake" Oswald writing with the CORRECT ZONE, right Jimbo? But, instead, they apparently wanted to leave conspiracy-hungry goofs like DiEugenio a whole bunch of bread crumbs throughout their LFO [Let's Frame Oswald] plan, by deliberately stamping the wrong zone on the envelope containing the money order.

And then the retard plotters compound their idiocy by also deciding to make the money order arrive in Chicago at an impossibly early time (in 24 hours), per the CTers like Jimbo D.

The fact that anomalies and discrepancies like this exist AT ALL is probably better proof of NO CONSPIRACY than they are of CONSPIRACY.

Why?

Because in a plot where EVERYTHING is fake and totally controlled by the evil plotters (which is certainly what DiEugenio believes--he thinks EVERYTHING connected with Oswald is phony), then NONE of these types of goofy anomalies would exist in the first place. (Unless, as I mentioned, the plotters were, literally, ALL retarded.)

Continuing on.....

And then the plotters also decided to frame Oswald by creating ADDITIONAL fake backyard photos, even though we know there were several other copies of the backyard photos that the plotters could not possibly have controlled that depicted THE EXACT SAME THING in the pictures (Oswald in the Neely St. yard holding guns) -- like the one found in DeMohrenschildt's possession in 1977. Was that "planted" and "fake" too, Jimbo? And the picture that Marina and Marguerite destroyed in their hotel room shortly after the assassination. Was that one a fake picture of Oswald holding a rifle too?

And the retard plotters decided to frame Oswald by killing Kennedy FROM THE GRASSY KNOLL, per almost all CTers on the Internet. This is the silliest goof of all, of course. But CTers want to believe those two things can realistically co-exist (the patsy frame-up AND a Grassy Knoll gunman), so the conspiracists decide to throw all common sense out the nearest window.

And on and on to retard infinity with these goofball frame-up idiots that people like DiEugenio think were out to get Oswald.

In short, Jim DiEugenio doesn't have a clue.

And the fact he's still a Garrison supporter in this day and age only further supports my last sentence.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Guest Tom Scully

WOW!!!! Why did Armstrong even bother, if this is the reaction to the body of research done on the origin of "the rifle", by Mr. von Pein and Mr. Mack? Mr. Mack has an opportunity to distance himself from remarks attributed to him by Mr. von Pein, but von Pein has no such option.

Disclaimer: If you take seriously in this instance, the opinion of von Pein, and the alleged opinion of Mr. Mack, none of the following can be considered, it has to all just disappear! Longer rifles must now weigh the same as shorter rifles, is that correct, Mr. von Pein?

Tom...I finally located an early copy of John's H&L manuscript

on my HD which I used in helping proofread. This is not necessarily

the final draft, but is close. Following is part of John's chapter on

Klein's, from about 5 years ago.

Jack

...........................................

March 12, 1963-Oswald's alleged purchase of a rifle

....NOTE: Neither the FBI nor the Warren Commission determined if Crescent Firearms was Klein's only supplier of Mannlicher-Carcano's from 1958 thru January, 1962.

Klein's orders 400 Model 91TS rifles on January 15, 1962

A single Klein's purchase order form provided several columns, which allowed for multiple orders of guns, from the same supplier, on the same form. As Klein's was selling out of their 40 inch rifles, they placed an order for 400 Model 91TS Mannlicher-Carcano's from Crescent on January 15, 1962, at a cost of $7.50 each. Klein's assigned this 36 inch carbine catalog number C20-T749, which appeared on both their purchase order form (Klein's order #1222) and their advertisements in the American Rifleman from March, 1962, through February, 1963. A handwritten notation on Klein's purchase order indicates these 400 rifles were received on January 22, 1962.

In March, 1962, Klein's began offering a 4 power scope with their 36 inch carbine, catalog number CT-T750, for $19.95.

On April 13, 1962, Klein's placed a second order, on the same purchase order (order #1243) for 200 Model 91/38 rifles, at a cost of $8.50 each.

On April 13, 1962, Klein's placed a third order, on the same purchase order (order #1243) for 100 Model 91/38 rifles, at a cost of $8.50 each.

From March thru June, 1962, Klein's offered only a 36 inch carbine, catalog number C20-T749, for $11.88. In August, they changed the catalog number to C20-T1196 and raised the price of their 36 inch rifle to $12.88, which they continued to sell thru March, 1963.

We have determined that Klein's stocked and sold only 36 inch Mannlicher-Carcano rifles through their mail order division from March, 1962 thru February, 1963. Klein's allegedly shipped a 40 inch rifle to "A. Hidell," yet we know from advertisements in American Rifleman this model was not available until April, 1963. Where and when did Klein's begin purchasing 40 inch Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, and in particular C2766?

Mannlicher-Carcano-C2766, is sold to Klein's on June 18, 1962

As Klein's was placing and receiving orders for 36 inch rifles during 1962, the 520 cartons of Mannlicher-Carcano's from the Elletra Fassio were still in storage at the Harborside Terminal warehouse in New Jersey. Among those rifles was a Mannlicher-Carcano, serial number C2766, in carton number 3376.

Beginning in November, 1960, the Harborside Terminal billed Crescent Firearms a fee for storage based upon the number cubic feet used during a particular month. The number of cubic feet was calculated by measuring the length (3'5"), width (1'2") and heighth (11") of the 520 cartons and appears on Harborside Terminal's billing statement, originally dated November 9, 1960. A cardboard carton which measured 41 inches long would have contained 40.2 inch Mannlicher-Carcano rifles.

Crescent's president, Louis Feldsott, told the FBI that his company stored the 520 cartons of imported Mannlicher-Carcano rifles at the Harborside Terminal warehouse until such time that they received a sufficient number of orders from retail customers. After receiving an order, Crescent would arrange for delivery of the rifles and immediately send an invoice to their customer.

On June 18, 1962, Crescent sold and arranged for a shipment of rifles to Klein's Sporting Goods. Included in this shipment was a 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, serial number C2766. FBI agents Martin and Francis Grealy interviewed Crescent president Louis Feldsott on the evening of November 22, 1963, in New York. SA Grealy wrote in his report of that interview, "He (Feldsott) also made available 10 shipping slips reflecting the carton number and the rifle numbers in each carton." One of the shipping slips Feldsott gave to SA Grealy was Crescent's shipping form number 3620. This was a copy of the shipping form, filled out by a Crescent agent in Italy in the presence of Italian authorities, that was affixed to carton number 3376, which contained C2766.

These 10 shipping slips with the serial numbers of 10 rifles on each slip tell us that at least 100, and perhaps all of 5200 rifles aboard the Elletro Fascio, were 40 inch 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano's.

NOTE: Louis Feldsott provided an affidavit to the Warren Commission (Vol XI, p 205 ) in which he stated, "On November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted me that asked if Crescent Firearms, Inc., had any records concerning the sale of an Italian made 6.5 mm rifle with serial number C2766. I was able to find a record of the sale of this rifle which indicated that the weapon had been sold to Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., Chicago, Illinois on June 18, 1962. Further records involving the purchase, sale, and transportation of the weapon have been turned over to the FBI."

Crescent's records relating to the purchase, sale and transportation of C2766 to Klein's on June 18, 1962, have never been made public. The Warren Commission never acknowledged or sought to explain the existence of C2766 on June 18, 1962, even though they published Feldsott's affidavit.

The last shipment of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles to arrive in the US from Italy were those aboard the Elletro Fassio. When Klein's began receiving 40 inch Mannlicher-Carcano's from Crescent in June, 1962, they probably placed these rifle in storage as they were currently advertising and selling only 36 inch Mannlicher-Carcano's. After selling out of the 36 inch rifles, Klein's began advertising and selling their 40 inch Mannlicher-Carcano's in April, 1964. C2766 was shipped to "A. Hidell" between April and November, 1963.

June, 1962-Mannlicher-Carcano-2766, is sold to Century Arms

William Sucher, owner of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, of Montreal, told the FBI that his firm purchased hundreds of thousands of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles from the Italian government. He said that since many firms manufactured the same rifle, the same serial number could appear on the same style of rifle. In June, 1962, Empire sold 700 Mannlicher-Carcano rifles to Century Arms, Inc. of St. Albans, Vermont (invoice #1078). James Ouimet, owner of Century, told the FBI a Mannlicher-Carcano, with serial number "2766" (no letter prefix "C"), was included in the shipment from Empire (invoice 1078). Century re-sold and shipped the rifle(s) to Aldens, of Chicago, on July 5, 1962."

NOTE: The .38 caliber Smith & Wesson pistol allegedly used to kill Dallas Police Officer J. D. Tippit and a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, serial number 2766, both came from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods. Curiously, neither the FBI nor Warren Commission investigated, explained, nor addressed the probability that other Mannlicher-Carcano rifles had serial numbers "C2766."

June 18, 1962-Mannlicher-Carcano, C2766, is sold to Klein's

On June 18, 1962, Cescent Firearms sold a Mannlicher-Carcano, C2766, to Klein's Sporting Goods. Crescent's President, Louis Feldsott, provided FBI agents in New York with shipping form #3620 (1 of 10 forms), which showed Crescent's purchase, transportation, and sale of C2766 to Klein's. Crescent's shipping form #3620, which originated in Italy, was affixed to the outside of carton number 3766, which listed the serial number of 10 rifles, including C2766. The FBI used shipping form #3620 and deceived the Warren Commission and the public by claiming C2766 was sold to Klein's on February 7, 1963, INSTEAD OF ON JUNE 18, 1962.

Fred Rupp

Fred Rupp lived and worked on Mink Road in Perkasie, PA, 12 miles north of Philadelphia, and 100 miles from the Harborside Terminal in Jersey City. According to the FBI, Rupp removed the first 170 cartons of rifles from the Harborside Terminal warehouse on August 29, 1962. He probably took the cartons to Perkasie, PA for servicing and repacking. After completing his work, he probably shipped the 170 cartons (1700 rifles) to Crescent's customer. Unfortunately, there are no bills of lading or documentation from Rupp that indicates which cartons or rifles were shipped to which customer.

There are no carton numbers or serial numbers of rifles listed on any of the Harborside Terminal warehouse records for the remaining 350 cartons of rifles. Rupp removed an additional 90 cartons on October 4, 70 cartons on October 16, 64 cartons on October 24 and 40 cartons on October 31.The 40 cartons (400 rifles) removed by Rupp on October 31, 1962, and taken to Perkasie, PA, for servicing, may have filled Klein's order for 400 rifles (#1222), that was originally placed on January 15, 1962. Unfortunately, there is no documentation to establish when or to whom these rifles were shipped. After October 31, 1962, only 86 cartons (860 rifles) remained in storage at the Harborside Terminal warehouse.

Rupp shipped some of these rifles to Klein's in January, 1963. On Klein's original order for 400 rifles, placed on January 15, 1962, there is a handwritten notation "order number 1222," and the date received-1/22/62.

On the same order form, above the order for 200 rifles, there is a handwritten notation "order number 1243," and the date received- 1/24/63. On a carbon copy of the same form, above the quantity "200," there is a handwritten notation "3166 (Crescent's invoice number)," and the date of Crescent's invoice-1/6/63.

On the same order form, above the order for 100 rifles, there is a handwritten notation "order number 1243," and the date received- 1/24/63. On a carbon copy of the same form, above the quantity "100," there is a handwritten notation "3178 (Crescent's invoice number), and the date of Crescent's invoice-2/7/63. According to the the Warren Commission, this was the order that originated with Fred Rupp and contained both carton #3376 and the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, C2766. The Warren Commission and the FBI, however, had no shipping documents or bills of lading to support their claim.

Fred Rupp

The FBI obtained an undated shipping document, allegedly signed by Fred Rupp, which showed that 10 cartons of rifles, weighing 750 pounds, were picked up by North Penn Transfer Company in Pottsville, PA. However, Pottsville is 60 miles northwest of Fred Rupp's hometown of Perkasie.

The FBI next obtained the bill of lading from the North Penn Transfer Company, of Lansdale, PA. This document showed that on February 12, 1963, North Penn picked up 10 cartons of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles (100 total), weighing 750 pounds, from Pottsville. The bill of lading does not list any of the carton numbers, serial numbers of rifles, or have the signature of Fred Rupp as shipper. North Penn delivered the 10 cartons of rifles to Lifschultz Fast Freight in Philadelphia on February 13, for further shipment to Klein's in Chicago.

On February 15, 1963, the 10 cartons of rifles, again with no carton numbers or serial numbers listed on the Lifschultz bill of lading, left Philadelphia bound for Chicago. Six days later, on February 21, Lifschultz delivered the 10 cartons to Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., 4540 W. Madison St., Chicago.

Did Klein's receive 36 or 40 inch rifles on February 21, 1963?

The FBI, and later the Warren Commission, claimed that Crescent's shipping form #3620 proved that C2766 was sold to Klein's on February 7, 1963-INSTEAD OF ON JUNE 18, 1962.

At this point, either Louis Feldsott or the FBI is lying about the date that C2766 was sold to Klein's. The same rifle could not have been sold on June 18, 1962, and again on February 7, 1963. Feldsott said he gave documents related to the purchase, transportation, and sale of C2766 to the FBI. But the only document known to exist is an undated transportation document-Crescent's shipping form #3620.

January, 1963-Klein's continues to receive 36 inch rifles

In January, 1963, handwritten notations on Klein's order for 300 Model 91TS rifles, placed April 13, 1962, indicates these orders were filled.

According to both the North Penn Transfer and Lifschultz bills of lading, the 10 cases of rifles (100 rifles) weighted 750 pounds, or 7.5 pounds per rifle. Each of the wooden shipping cartons was measured at 3' 5" long, 1'2" wide, and 11" high by the Harborside Terminal. When empty, each carton weighted approximately 12 lbs, not including packing materials for the rifles. Therefore, each Mannlicher-Carcano received by Klein's on February 21, 1963, weighed less than 6.3 pounds.

According to the FBI, a 40 inch long Mannlicher-Carcano weighed 7 pounds, 11 ounces. One hundred such rifles, plus 10 cartons and packing materials, would weigh nearly 900 pounds-far more than the 750 pound shipment delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963. It is therefore almost certain that Fred Rupp, North Penn Transfer, and Lifschultz Fast Freight shipped 10 cartons of 36 inch Mannlicher-Carcano carbines to Klein's in February, 1963. A 40 inch Mannlicher-Carcano, C2766, could not have been among these rifles.

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LOL.gif

Keep reaching for that chaff, Tom Scully, all the while ignoring Waldman #7 (which proves for ALL TIME that Oswald was shipped a rifle with the number C2766 on it, which we know was a 40-inch rifle).

Let me ask Tom Scully point-blank -- do you REALLY think this document below is a fake?:

WH_Vol21_0364a.jpg

Edited by David Von Pein

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HA HA HA HA HA HA

The above is why Gary Mack (Larry Dunkel) has no credibility left with anyone but DVP, and maybe VB.

Listen to this utter goofiness.

Oh and then Dr. Panlgoss (Dunkel) says Oswald could have left anytime that morning. Duh, Gary, did you see the time cards? Are you saying they are fake? Did you check with Dave Perry on this first? You may be going a bit off his reservation here. Better call him.

Then comes the capper: the postmark being in a different zone is not out of the ordinary!

WTF? If anything tells us just how far Gary Mack has gone around the bend, it is that. The post office where the money order was allegedly purchased was two zones away from where the envelope was mailed--which is revealed in that postmark. Sure, Oswald mailed the envelope in one zone, but they just marked it as being picked up from another. Why? They didn' t know their own zones?

Well, Gary I will say this for you: Like Pangloss, you sure know how to make serious problems disappear....you say mail employees mismark envelopes all the time--so what's the big deal.

Gary Mack not only has no credibility left to him, he also has no self-respect left either.

And for DVP to trot this clown out, and to endorse this utter propaganda is shocking and disgusting, even for him.

Jim, what else can they say ? I noticed that Mack offered no evidence, just opinion. True that JCS is 8 blocks from the main post office, but the envelope is postmarked in postal zone 12.

http://i53.tinypic.com/jhg02b.jpg

Does he realize how EARLY the post office would have had to have been opened for Oswald to get all of this accomplished before 8 am ? Does Mack really believe that Oswald could have gotten this all done on foot ? Does Mack know that Oswald DECLINED RIDES FROM JCS CO-WORKERS AND PREFERRED WALKING ?

Mr. OFSTEIN. .....he was also offered rides by Mr. Graef, and I offered him a ride a couple of times either to his home or wherever he wanted to catch a bus, and I know that he always declined my offer of a ride.

( 10 H 205 )

HE EVEN DECLINED A RIDE TO THE POST OFFICE FROM A CO-WORKER WHO WAS GOING THAT WAY.

Mr. OFSTEIN. He said; no, he would go ahead and walk, and usually in the evening when he would leave he would say, "I am going up to the post office to pick up my mail", and a couple of times I would offer to give him a ride up this way, as it wasn't much out of my way and I have to come in this direction anyway to Live Oak before I turn, which is only about a block difference, and he always declined to ride and would walk.

( ibid.)

For Mack to suggest that Oswald was getting rides from fellow JCS employees indicates that he hasn't read the testimony.

And if Oswald was on foot, he couldn't have been walking and that's a lot of running. And busses ? Do these guys think that busses performed like taxis ? Busses were on SCHEDULES. When I was a kid, the busses ran every 30 minutes in my city.

From what I've seen there's NO EVIDENCE that the post office was opened before 8am, there's NO EVIDENCE that Oswald got a ride from a co-worker, there's NO EVIDENCE that he took a bus that morning or even that the busses were running that early and there's NO EVIDENCE that Oswald was anywhere other than where his timesheets indicate he was after 8 am --- at work.

And until they can prove otherwise they have a problem. And that problem is that they have to get Oswald to the main post office, buying and filling out the money order and then out to postal zone 12 to mail it and back to JCS by 8:00am. I can't accept words like "likely", " could have", "possibly", "probably" and such. I want to see EVIDENCE.

I'm not interested in Mack's opinion, conjecture, speculation or assumption and so far, that's all we've seen from Von Pein. I agree with you that after his appearance on the Ventura show, Mack has completely destroyed any credibility he had left. And for Von Pein to parade Mack's opinions as some sort of proof of something, is of course, ridiculous.

BTW, we're still looking for those delivery receipts, folks. For BOTH weapons.

Edited by Gil Jesus

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Keep reaching for that chaff, Tom Scully, all the while ignoring Waldman #7 (which proves for ALL TIME that Oswald was shipped a rifle with the number C2766 on it, which we know was a 40-inch rifle).

Nonsense. Waldman 7 proves no such thing. Postal forms 2162 and 1508 are the only proof that the rifle was shipped and received.

So produce them.

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Gil - could one of the reasons these items are not available is that they were used/siezed as part of Dodd's investigation?

Or they were conveniently "lost" since someone else must have picked up the rifle?

It is my opinion that in order for that to be true, then the necessary documentation should exist. What I mean by that is that the documents that were required to be filled out in the sales and transfer of the weapons should be on file. If Oswald DID order the weapons and ordered them as part of a government investigation, the documentation should be there, like the postal forms that were required to be kept on record for 4 years. Like the box application that was required to be kept for two years. These documents should have been available to the FBI right after the assassination. I find it hard to reconcile their unexplaned nonexistence with legal and actual sales.

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