A Criticism of DVP

[Cliff Varnell]

A shot from the drain opening on the North side of Elm Street would suit your proposed trajectory.

Also I don't think Black Dog Man is far enough left for a left-to-right trajectory.

JFK's sharp head turn to the right a second or so before the throat shot may have given BDM a near straight on shot, slightly left-to-right.

[Ron Ecker]

'Well, except that shot would not have passed through the windshield where it did. I might also add that a shot from umbrella man would not have passed through that spot in the windshield.

The shot through the windshield may have come from the north knoll area, causing the throat wound. The fatal head shot could have followed from the same area, just clearing the windshield.

[Cliff Varnell]

'Well, except that shot would not have passed through the windshield where it did. I might also add that a shot from umbrella man would not have passed through that spot in the windshield.

The shot through the windshield may have come from the north knoll area, causing the throat wound. The fatal head shot could have followed from the same area, just clearing the windshield.

Here's my problem with the windshield issue...would the plotters plan the windshield shot, or did a nervous shooter jump the gun?

Why would they plan to shoot JFK thru the windshield?

[Ron Ecker]

Why would they plan to shoot JFK thru the windshield?

It was a clear shot for a north knoll shooter with JFK coming toward him. And if it was planned to look like a pro-Castro ambush, why would a bullet through the windshield matter? It would mean, however, they were mighty confident that a Plan B lone-nut scenario would not be necessary.

[Kenneth Drew]

Why would they plan to shoot JFK thru the windshield?

It was a clear shot for a north knoll shooter with JFK coming toward him. And if it was planned to look like a pro-Castro ambush, why would a bullet through the windshield matter? It would mean, however, they were mighty confident that a Plan B lone-nut scenario would not be necessary.

Good assessment. I don't know if the windshield shot was planned that way or not. Doesn't seem like a good idea, but worked out well for them, unless it was planned to hit him in the head with it. Seems as if it must have been a small round to not go thru his body. Since that was likely the first shot, seems as if they didn't think the Lone Nut theory would work, or either not be necessary. I will say though that if that one shot had hit him in the temple, no other shot would have been necessary and they could still use the 'lone nut', just from the knoll instead of snipers nest.

[Cliff Varnell]

Why would they plan to shoot JFK thru the windshield?

It was a clear shot for a north knoll shooter with JFK coming toward him. And if it was planned to look like a pro-Castro ambush, why would a bullet through the windshield matter? It would mean, however, they were mighty confident that a Plan B lone-nut scenario would not be necessary.

Seems like an unnecessary complication, planning on hitting the windshield first, especially if we're looking at a flechette strike here.

If they planned for a conventional round thru the windshield then the execution gets that much more shaky with all the misses and short loads.

[Ron Ecker]

Well, this is all speculation, of course, thanks to the first-rate investigation of the crime. And it still doesn't tell us who did it.

[Cliff Varnell]

Well, this is all speculation, of course, thanks to the first-rate investigation of the crime. And it still doesn't tell us who did it.

The flechette scenario leads to Persons of Interest -- the Staff Support Group within US Army Special Operations Division at Ft. Detrick, MD, especially individuals described by flechette developer Charles Senseney as an Air Force colonel and an Army colonel who were conducting CIA ops with military cover.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

[Robert Prudhomme]

Well, this is all speculation, of course, thanks to the first-rate investigation of the crime. And it still doesn't tell us who did it.

The flechette scenario leads to Persons of Interest -- the Staff Support Group within US Army Special Operations Division at Ft. Detrick, MD, especially individuals described by flechette developer Charles Senseney as an Air Force colonel and an Army colonel who were conducting CIA ops with military cover.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

Agreed, Cliff. Establishing the existence of any type of exotic projectile in this assassination beyond a home made hollow point bullet, such as the flechettes you speak of or the highly complex (and unheard of in 1963) frangible bullets I speak of, automatically eliminates 99.999999% of the population as suspects, and points directly at agencies of the US Government with access to high tech weaponry.

[Kenneth Drew]

Well, this is all speculation, of course, thanks to the first-rate investigation of the crime. And it still doesn't tell us who did it.

The flechette scenario leads to Persons of Interest -- the Staff Support Group within US Army Special Operations Division at Ft. Detrick, MD, especially individuals described by flechette developer Charles Senseney as an Air Force colonel and an Army colonel who were conducting CIA ops with military cover.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

Agreed, Cliff. Establishing the existence of any type of exotic projectile in this assassination beyond a home made hollow point bullet, such as the flechettes you speak of or the highly complex (and unheard of in 1963) frangible bullets I speak of, automatically eliminates 99.999999% of the population as suspects, and points directly at agencies of the US Government with access to high tech weaponry.

I agree Robert. If I were the planner, I would not plan for a shot through the windshield, but somebody must have known something we don't and thought it was a worthwhile effort. Maybe the type projectile had been tested as firing through a windshield.

And Ron, exactly right. We don't know who did it. Don't know what kinds of projectile hit him, don't know what kind or type of weapon fired it or from where it was fired. Other than that?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Well, this is all speculation, of course, thanks to the first-rate investigation of the crime. And it still doesn't tell us who did it.

The flechette scenario leads to Persons of Interest -- the Staff Support Group within US Army Special Operations Division at Ft. Detrick, MD, especially individuals described by flechette developer Charles Senseney as an Air Force colonel and an Army colonel who were conducting CIA ops with military cover.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

Agreed, Cliff. Establishing the existence of any type of exotic projectile in this assassination beyond a home made hollow point bullet, such as the flechettes you speak of or the highly complex (and unheard of in 1963) frangible bullets I speak of, automatically eliminates 99.999999% of the population as suspects, and points directly at agencies of the US Government with access to high tech weaponry.

I agree Robert. If I were the planner, I would not plan for a shot through the windshield, but somebody must have known something we don't and thought it was a worthwhile effort. Maybe the type projectile had been tested as firing through a windshield.

And Ron, exactly right. We don't know who did it. Don't know what kinds of projectile hit him, don't know what kind or type of weapon fired it or from where it was fired. Other than that?

Of course, we also don't know which direction the bullet went through the windshield, either.

[Kenneth Drew]

Well, this is all speculation, of course, thanks to the first-rate investigation of the crime. And it still doesn't tell us who did it.

The flechette scenario leads to Persons of Interest -- the Staff Support Group within US Army Special Operations Division at Ft. Detrick, MD, especially individuals described by flechette developer Charles Senseney as an Air Force colonel and an Army colonel who were conducting CIA ops with military cover.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

Agreed, Cliff. Establishing the existence of any type of exotic projectile in this assassination beyond a home made hollow point bullet, such as the flechettes you speak of or the highly complex (and unheard of in 1963) frangible bullets I speak of, automatically eliminates 99.999999% of the population as suspects, and points directly at agencies of the US Government with access to high tech weaponry.

I agree Robert. If I were the planner, I would not plan for a shot through the windshield, but somebody must have known something we don't and thought it was a worthwhile effort. Maybe the type projectile had been tested as firing through a windshield.

And Ron, exactly right. We don't know who did it. Don't know what kinds of projectile hit him, don't know what kind or type of weapon fired it or from where it was fired. Other than that?

Of course, we also don't know which direction the bullet went through the windshield, either.

I would assume since the bullet hit JFK in the front of the throat, it would come from in front. But, I realize there is NO PROOF that is the bullet that hit JFK.

[David Von Pein]

Time Out for a Fact Break!

Sorry to interrupt all of the fantasy talk going on, but.....

There was no hole in the windshield.

Edited June 2, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

A shot from the drain opening on the North side of Elm Street would suit your proposed trajectory.

Also I don't think Black Dog Man is far enough left for a left-to-right trajectory.

JFK's sharp head turn to the right a second or so before the throat shot may have given BDM a near straight on shot, slightly left-to-right.

Contrary to popular belief, the trachea (windpipe) does not travel to the left or right as the head rotates let or night; at least, not below the Adams's apple. You can demonstrate this on yourself by placing your hand on your chest, with your fingers touching your trachea below the Adam's apple, and turning your head.

Unfortunately, this means that a shot from Black Dog Man cannot account for a wound following a track from the right side of JFK's trachea to the right transverse process of T1, unless JFK's entire body was turned to the right, which I do not believe it was.

P.S.

WC apologists have made the same argument, only in reverse, to explain a bullet making the right to left trajectory from JFK's back wound to his throat wound, yet still being aligned with Connally's right armpit, and it doesn't work for them, either.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Cliff Varnell]

A shot from the drain opening on the North side of Elm Street would suit your proposed trajectory.

Also I don't think Black Dog Man is far enough left for a left-to-right trajectory.

JFK's sharp head turn to the right a second or so before the throat shot may have given BDM a near straight on shot, slightly left-to-right.

Contrary to popular belief, the trachea (windpipe) does not travel to the left or right as the head rotates let or night; at least, not below the Adams's apple. You can demonstrate this on yourself by placing your hand on your chest, with your fingers touching your trachea below the Adam's apple, and turning your head.

Unfortunately, this means that a shot from Black Dog Man cannot account for a wound following a track from the right side of JFK's trachea to the right transverse process of T1, unless JFK's entire body was turned to the right, which I do not believe it was.

Isn't it normal to turn your body when you look to the side?

P.S.

WC apologists have made the same argument, only in reverse, to explain a bullet making the right to left trajectory from JFK's back wound to his throat wound, yet still being aligned with Connally's right armpit, and it doesn't work for them, either.