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David Von Pein

Did Lee Harvey Oswald Order The Rifle? The Answer Is Yes

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I know, I've read that before. It is, however, IMO, not the same rifle ... repeating the point ... at a minimum the sling and sling mounts are dramatically different (you would be correct to say they could have been changed ... forward sling mount from bottom to side not so easily, however) ... now we need to question the competency of the advisors to and the HSCA. Why would they make that statement and not acknowledge and explain the differences that can be so clearly seen? I don't take any of the government pronouncements at face value, especially when we have photographic evidence to evaluate ourselves. Again I think really shoddy patsying, planting a different rifle (and a slug from that rifle that is so pristine as to be questioned by most observers ... ie: SBT is long dead.)

"Because only a team of goofs and morons would have had any desire to risk faking multiple versions of the exact same thing" Exactly ... agreed ... inexplicable except maybe they tried to do too much in a short time.

And have one with the figure cut out show up in the (DPD?) years later. Weird

The forward sling mount ring is the only outstanding difference between the BYP rifle and the 6th floor rifle. While the M91/38 was manufactured with side mounted rings, both on the forestock and the buttstock, it is unusual in the extreme to see an M91/38 with a bottom mounted forward sling ring, but not unheard of. I have read through a Carcano registry, and the odd M91/38 is registered as having bottom mounted rings on the forestock.

I believe these exist due to the condition of many of the Carcanos sold as surplus by the Italian government, following WW II. These were a mixed bag of carbines, short rifles and long rifles, and both the long rifles and most of the carbines were made with bottom mounted sling rings. Some carbines had both bottom AND side rings. As a good percentage of these rifles were in pieces and various states of disrepair, it was often necessary to rob parts from rifles beyond repair to make complete rifles of other rifles. There would have been nothing stopping a gunsmith from robbing a bottom mounted sling ring from a carbine to replace the missing side mounted ring on an M91/38.

There was also nothing stopping someone from replacing the bottom mounted ring with a side mounted ring after the BYP's were taken but before the rifle arrived on the 6th floor.

Robert is is interesting that you state that the rifle in the BYP and TSBD are identical but then state that forward sling mount is different on the two rifles. Maybe the word identical means something different to you than I think the recognized defintion means. Doesn't identical mean 'no different', not well only one thing is different? I think it would be hard to locate a gunsmith that had robbed a part from one Carcano to put on this rifle just to make it identical to the TSBD rifle. How would he have known which ring to change to match the photo? I think it is pretty well accepted that the rifles are different rifles and for the most part, only nutters tend to maintain the fiction that they are the same rifle.

You really do have comprehension difficulties. If you would clean your glasses and read my posts again, you would see that I said both rifles were most definitely the same model of Carcano, that being the M91/38 short rifle, but not necessarily the same rifle.

I did offer the opinion, though, that it would be a bit dumb for the conspirators not to plant the same rifle that was used in the back yard photos.

"You really do have comprehension difficulties. If you would clean your glasses and read my posts again, you would see that I said both rifles were most definitely the same model of Carcano, that being the M91/38 short rifle, but not necessarily the same rifle."

Well, you got me there Robert. I was reading what you were saying as 'the byp rifle and the TSBD rifle were the same rifle', not that you were saying they were the same model of rifle. I even went back and looked and couldn't find an obvious place where you said the models were the same. But now we're in agreement that the rifles were both MC's of the same model,but not the 'same' MC rifle. And by TSBD MC rifle I'm referring to the one that turned up after they had taken the Mauser away from the SBD and produced the MC that later became the one they have tried to claim was mailed to a PO Box in Dallas. Maybe they had bought several of the rifles just in case they had to use a different scenario. Accept my apology for interpreting you incorrectly.

No sweat, I do it all the time. :)

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Very few people that I know have ever accepted that LHO was actually the one that killed JFK...

You're confusing Internet CT clowns (such as yourself; and it becomes a much easier task to label Kenneth Drew a "clown" after reading all of the stupid things he says in the quote below) with the average man on the street who has an opinion on the case. Maybe you should check out the 2003 ABC News poll.

Hardly anybody thinks "Lee shot John", eh? Think again....

"Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald was the only gunman in the Kennedy assassination, do you think there was another gunman in addition to Oswald there that day, or do you think Oswald was not involved in the assassination at all?":

ONLY OSWALD ----------- 32%

ANOTHER GUNMAN ------- 51%

OSWALD NOT INVOLVED -- 7%

NO OPINION ------------- 10%

http://PollingReport.com/news3.htm#Kennedy

There is no proof JFK was shot with a rifle, there is no proof of what weapon was fired at him, there is not one piece of evidence linking any human to having fired at him and there is not one piece of evidence that any shots have ever been fired from the snipers nest. To sum it all up, your total is Zero.

Good gosh Almighty, you really do reside in Fantasy Land, don't you?

Why not just pretend JFK wasn't killed at all?

Well, DVP, you need to wipe your Pigpen slop off your eyeballs and quit pretending you 've been misled by the WCR and the Nutters. Seriously, you've never considered LHO to be the person that shot John, have you? I mean you know the truth so surely you can't be on that list. That's just a list of the uninformed. I know that you have to 'claim to believe' the WCR, but, let's face it, nobody really believes that crap, right?

"Good gosh Almighty, you really do reside in Fantasy Land, don't you?

Why not just pretend JFK wasn't killed at all?" And you pretend my memory is faulty and you can't remember for 30 seconds what the question was that you're answering. Did I say JFK wasn't shot? I said 'there is no proof he was shot with a rifle" Well, can you, or anyone prove that? No. I said; there is no proof of what type of weapon was fired at him? well, is there? what type do you have 'proof' of? I said there is not one piece of evidence linking any human of having fired at him. Is there? What is that proof and who is the person? Remember not guessing now, must be absolute. Spit it out. Who was it? And last, but not least, there is not any evidence of any shot ever having been fired from the snipers nest. If there were evidence of it, we would have heard of it by now. Oh, I'm well aware that you can throw out all kind of smoke and mirrors, but that's not what we're talking here, We're talking evidence of a crime. You don't have it. So, I willl concede that JFK was 'likely' shot in Dealey Plaza, but there is no absolute proof of anything else.

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Well, DVP, you need to wipe your Pigpen slop off your eyeballs...[snip]

Nice DiEugenio imitation.

Pretty soon you'll be saying "okay" after every sentence.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Did I say JFK wasn't shot? I said "there is no proof he was shot with a rifle." Well, can you, or anyone, prove that? No. I said there is no proof of what type of weapon was fired at him? Well, is there?

Yeah, right, Ken.

Kennedy must have been shot with a bow and arrow instead of a rifle --- even though there were bullet fragments from a RIFLE found right there in the car. And those were fragments from not just any ol' rifle. They were from the C2766 rifle. But that little fact means zilch to a conspiracy hobbyist and fantasist like you. Perhaps you think those bullet fragments were already there in the limousine BEFORE the car passed the Depository on November 22, eh?

Your posts are getting more ridiculous with each passing hour.

Time for a new hobby, Ken. Maybe croquet. Or bird watching. Because you're really lousy at this "JFK" thing.

And last, but not least, there is not any evidence of any shot ever having been fired from the sniper's nest.

Yeah, all those witnesses who saw a gun in the sixth-floor window (Brennan, Couch, Euins, Jackson, and Worrell) must have all been imagining it. They must have really seen a bow & arrow instead.

And those three spent bullet shells in the Sniper's Nest must have been figments of Luke Mooney's imagination when he found the Nest at 1:12 PM on Nov. 22. Right, Ken?

And Williams, Jarman, and Norman must have been dreaming when they heard the shots coming from over their heads. And Norman was also dreaming when he heard three shells hit the plywood floor directly above him. Must have been nails or screws instead, just as Gerry Spence laughably suggested to Harold Norman when he had Norman on the witness stand in 1986. Right, Kenny?

During his cross-examination of Harold Norman, Spence was actually suggesting to the jury that perhaps--just perhaps--the jury should consider the possibility that the metal objects Norman heard hitting the floor on 11/22/63---at the exact same time JFK was being shot with rifle bullets from the Depository---were not bullet shell casings at all....but were, instead, possibly screws or nails striking the floor. IOW, somebody just happened to be dropping some screws or nails on the floor directly above Norman at the same time somebody was ALSO shooting at JFK with a gun in the same location on the sixth floor.

If I had been on that jury in London in '86, I doubt I could have kept from busting a gut with laughter when Spence threw that one up for the jury's consideration. But, incredibly, Gerry threw it up there just the same.

Edited by David Von Pein

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http://www.ctka.net/2014-mantik/essay/Harper4.html

see Appendix K. The Three Headshot Scenario

===============================================

SPARKS BEHIND LIMO.

Golly even if someone shot from 6th floor TSBD. No proof any hit POTUS. No proof LHO did any shooting.

You know if only you could have place LHO in the Dal-Tex building. /// Gaal

Edited by Steven Gaal

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Good gravy! Does anybody in this place (except me) ever say anything that isn't covered with a thick layer of myth and misinformation? It's unbelievable---even for a mostly "CT" forum.//DVP

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Dear Sir, science and fact presented to you and you don't address the Mantik article and just say "MYTH". DVP not ready for debate. // Gaal

http://www.ctka.net/2014-mantik/essay/Harper4.html

see Appendix K. The Three Headshot Scenario

===============================================

SPARKS BEHIND LIMO.

Golly even if someone shot from 6th floor TSBD. No proof any hit POTUS. No proof LHO did any shooting.

You know if only you could have place LHO in the Dal-Tex building. /// Gaal

Edited by Steven Gaal

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Did I say JFK wasn't shot? I said "there is no proof he was shot with a rifle." Well, can you, or anyone, prove that? No. I said there is no proof of what type of weapon was fired at him? Well, is there?

Yeah, right, Ken.

Kennedy must have been shot with a bow and arrow instead of a rifle --- even though there were bullet fragments from a RIFLE found right there in the car. And those were fragments from not just any ol' rifle. They were from the C2766 rifle. But that little fact means zilch to a conspiracy hobbyist and fantasist like you. Perhaps you think those bullet fragments were already there in the limousine BEFORE the car passed the Depository on November 22, eh?

Your posts are getting more ridiculous with each passing hour.

Time for a new hobby, Ken. Maybe croquet. Or bird watching. Because you're really lousy at this "JFK" thing.

And last, but not least, there is not any evidence of any shot ever having been fired from the sniper's nest.

Yeah, all those witnesses who saw a gun in the sixth-floor window (Brennan, Couch, Euins, Jackson, and Worrell) must have all been imagining it. They must have really seen a bow & arrow instead.

And those three spent bullet shells in the Sniper's Nest must have been figments of Luke Mooney's imagination when he found the Nest at 1:12 PM on Nov. 22. Right, Ken?

And Williams, Jarman, and Norman must have been dreaming when they heard the shots coming from over their heads. And Norman was also dreaming when he heard three shells hit the plywood floor directly above him. Must have been nails or screws instead, just as Gerry Spence laughably suggested to Harold Norman when he had Norman on the witness stand in 1986. Right, Kenny?

During his cross-examination of Harold Norman, Spence was actually suggesting to the jury that perhaps--just perhaps--the jury should consider the possibility that the metal objects Norman heard hitting the floor on 11/22/63---at the exact same time JFK was being shot with rifle bullets from the Depository---were not bullet shell casings at all....but were, instead, possibly screws or nails striking the floor. IOW, somebody just happened to be dropping some screws or nails on the floor directly above Norman at the same time somebody was ALSO shooting at JFK with a gun in the same location on the sixth floor.

If I had been on that jury in London in '86, I doubt I could have kept from busting a gut with laughter when Spence threw that one up for the jury's consideration. But, incredibly, Gerry threw it up there just the same.

"Kennedy must have been shot with a bow and arrow instead of a rifle" Certainly could have been with a handgun. There are alternatives to bows and arrows.

"even though there were bullet fragments from a RIFLE" Rifle? actually a 'firearm'. No proof of weapon.

"They were from the C2766 rifle." Good vivid imagination.

"Your posts are getting more ridiculous with each passing hour." Well, at least you don't have that to worry about. Your posts have always been ridiculous.

"Yeah, all those witnesses who saw a gun in the sixth-floor window" Le's see now; seeing a gun equals shooting a gun. See what I mean?

"three spent bullet shells" you're incluing the one with the bent edge, right? So spent shell equals someone shot someone? See what I mean? or do you prefer; Okay?

"During his cross-examination of Harold Norman, Spence was actually suggesting to the jury" Wow, a fake trial, you should see how my fake trial turned out. I do know that tv show trials usually turn out how the writer writes them. Okay?

All your time spent collecting artifacts hasn't helped you one bit, though I think you might know the truth, for some reason you don't want it revealed. One day I'm going to show my home video, then you won't be able to deny any longer. uh, okay?

Edited by Kenneth Drew

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Good gravy! Does anybody in this place (except me) ever say anything that isn't covered with a thick layer of myth and misinformation? It's unbelievable---even for a mostly "CT" forum.//DVP

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Dear Sir, science and fact presented to you and you don't address the Mantik article and just say "MYTH". DVP not ready for debate. // Gaal

http://www.ctka.net/2014-mantik/essay/Harper4.html

see Appendix K. The Three Headshot Scenario

===============================================

SPARKS BEHIND LIMO.

Golly even if someone shot from 6th floor TSBD. No proof any hit POTUS. No proof LHO did any shooting.

You know if only you could have place LHO in the Dal-Tex building. /// Gaal

Stephen, I try to stick with the truth, which is that someone knows who shot the president. Who? is not known to the public. I try to be realistic.

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David - you remain the only person posting on this forum who has that "thick layer of myth and misinformation" you speak of....

Continually referring to outdated and debunked government investigations and conclusions as if they are the tablets from Sinai continually makes you sound like a grazing sheep willing to be happily led to slaughter.

I applaud your persistence though... for someone to remain as wrong about everything as you are and keep going back to the well as if the water wasn't poisoned is, well, the role of the WCRHSCA defender.

The real problem is that discussing the case with you is akin to having a conversation with a parrot - you only have one channel and you present it as if you haven't given the topics a single thought since it was put on paper in 1964.

What I'm wonder is what you are most scared of... the reality of the conspiracy involved and the depth of evil required or that you have so much invested in defending the government's position (ala Dunkel) you've left yourself no room to have a doubtful thought.

The simplist of questions Dave... to connect the back and front wounds the bullet must RISE 11 degrees within the body.

The shot, if from the 6th floor, would be traveling DOWNWARD at almost 20 degress (angle plus incline)

The WCR says it did not hit anything that would change it's course and goes on to hit Connally...

Kinda obvious from the image below that the bullet went in well below the throat - for it to RISE in the body, JFK must be tying his shoes when it happens...

Is this what you are now claiming? or is there another explanation for themovement of the bullet hole and the impossibility of a bullet rising when shot on a downward trajectory?

FRAUDintheevidence-rybergandford-thejack

SBTshottohell-again_zpsba1c32c0.jpg

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Continually referring to outdated and debunked government investigations and conclusions as if they are the tablets from Sinai...

You're funny, David. Only in the world of JFK CTers could someone consider the huge pile of evidence against Oswald as being "outdated and debunked". I wonder how the facts and the physical evidence suddenly become "outdated". And none of that evidence has been "debunked", despite the CTer efforts to capsize the LN ship.

Nothing has come along to supplant the conclusions reached by the Dallas Police on 11/22/63 and by the Warren Commission in 1964. Certainly nothing you CTers believe happened can replace the hard evidence put forth by the DPD and the WC. That's not even a close call. You don't have a single piece of physical evidence to back up your claim of conspiracy. Not one. And you never did. And you never will. Because no such evidence exists. Nor did it ever exist.

To show just how pathetic and miserable the case for conspiracy is at this forum, Ken Drew is running around trying to pretend that just maybe JFK was killed by a pistol shot--or a handgun of some type. Even with CE567/569 staring him in the face (assuming he even knows what those are). The case for "denying the evidence" doesn't get much stronger than that.

In short -- LNers possess all the physical evidence. CTers have Prayer Man, Umbrella Man, and their overactive imaginations.

That's the way it's always been and always will be. Because Oswald killed Kennedy and Tippit. And LNers don't even need the Warren Commission to prove Oswald's guilt. The DPD already did that on Day 1.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Continually referring to outdated and debunked government investigations and conclusions as if they are the tablets from Sinai...

You're funny, David. Only in the world of JFK CTers could someone consider the huge pile of evidence against Oswald as being "outdated and debunked". I wonder how the facts and the physical evidence suddenly becomes "outdated". And none of that evidence has been "debunked", despite the CTer efforts to capsize the LN ship.

Nothing has come along to supplant the conclusions reached by the Dallas Police on 11/22/63 and by the Warren Commission in 1964. Certainly nothing you CTers believe happened can replace the hard evidence put forth by the DPD and the WC. That's not even a close call. You don't have a single piece of physical evidence to back up your claim of conspiracy. Not one. And you never did. And you never will. Because no such evidence exists. Nor did it ever exist.

To show just how pathetic and miserable the case for conspiracy is at this forum, Ken Drew is running around trying to pretend that just maybe JFK was killed by a pistol shot--or a handgun of some type. Even with CE567/569 staring him in the face (assuming he even knows what those are). The case for "denying the evidence" doesn't get much stronger than that.

In short -- LNers possess all the physical evidence. CTers have Prayer Man, Umbrella Man, and their overactive imaginations.

That's the way it's always been and always will be. Because Oswald killed Kennedy and Tippit. And LNers don't even need the Warren Commission to prove Oswald's guilt. The DPD already did that on Day 1.

Translation = I have no logical rebuttal for your arguments, Mr. Josephs, but I hope if I make enough noise, it will distract the less enlightened of the readers from the content of your arguments, and what else really matters?

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As can be easily seen in the autopsy photos, Dr. Humes was right (and the HSCA was wrong) regarding the height of the two JFK wounds (back & throat). There was no "11-degree upward" angle through JFK's body. The back wound was anatomically higher than the throat wound (just like Dr. Humes told the WC in '64). And these photos prove it....

JFK-Autopsy-Photos.jpg

"The wound in the anterior portion of the lower neck is physically lower than the

point of entrance posteriorly." -- Dr. James Humes; 1964

Edited by David Von Pein

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Dave... please point to this passage Rankin describes in the autopsy. or is Mr. Rankin lying ?

Mr. Rankin:

Then there‘s a great range of material in regards to the wound and the autopsy and this point of exit or entrance of the bullet in the front of the neck, and that all has to be developed much more than we have at the present time.

We have an explanation there in the autopsy that probably a fragment came out the front of the neck, but with the elevation the shot must have come from, and the angle, it seems quite apparent, since we have the picture of where the bullet entered in the back, that the bullet entered below the shoulder blade to the right of the backbone, which is below the place where the picture shows the bullet came out in the neckband of the shirt in front, and the bullet, according to the autopsy didn't strike any bone at all, that particular bullet, and go through.

So that how it could turn, and --

Rep. Boggs. I thought I read that bullet just went in a finger's length.

Mr. Rankin. That is what they first said

Rankin's comment is from the Exec Session on January 22, 1964... and they STILL dont know if it was an entrance or exit...

then how could Humes have written and delivered an autopsy report which states:

Date 11/22/63 1300 (CST)

Prosecter: CDR J.J. Humes, MC, USA (497831)

Assistant: CDR "J" Thornton Boswell, MC, USN, (439878);
LCOL, Pierre A. Finck,
MC, USA (04 043 322)

Full Autopsy

The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above
the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and
the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck.
This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura
and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The
missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck,
damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of
the neck
. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony
structures in its path through the body.

Once again Dave... in the existing autopsy, please point us to the section that described a fragment exiting the throat...

Also like to know what anatomy class or book you've seen which places the throat below the scapula... Using the following, can you show us where the bullet went in the back?

SBT%20Backshot%20angle%20skeleton_zpsxte

And this one to show right to left as well as up and down

SBT%20skeletons%20show%20it%20not%20poss

Thanks

Edited by David Josephs

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I'm sensing here that we have with DVP ... "he doth protest too much" ... mostly protest, little reality ... not sure where to go with that, but I'm feeling more wary than anything else ... who's he representing?

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