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Robert Prudhomme

Re-Post from ROKC: re Baker entering TSBD

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Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

Sandy,

Obviously? Whenever a researcher or a student says "obviously," my non-sodomite-alien antenes go up and start wiggling around, big time.

How do you know Baker didn't change his course slightly in order to give himself a better shot (pardon the pun) up the steps?

How do I know? Because I studied the film clip. Baker makes a very abrupt change in direction just as he passes behind the tall guy (Truly?), and a large change at that. His new path is nearly perpendicular to that of the girl who is running toward the right side of the doorway. He crosses her path, and that proves that he was then headed somewhere to the right of the doorway. Maybe some day I will find the time to extract frames and draw lines for those who can't see what I see. But for now I'm satisfied with my analysis and others can believe what they want.

Relax, Sandy. I didn't say Baker didn't change his course. I said it's possible he changed his course in order to give him a "better shot" up the steps.

Oh, I wasn't uptight or anything when I wrote that Tommy. My attitude was just "matter of fact." Truth is, I can't blame anybody for not agreeing with me given that I have not made the drawing I mentioned.

That's obviously a possibility.

EDIT: Another thing. People can't normally distracted by anything when they're running full-bore towards something over a short distance. I would imagine that if they are distracted by something while running like that, they slow down a bit (or even come to a complete stop) while deciding whether or not to continue on to their goal, or to run towards the distraction, instead.

Well, Baker does make a sudden change without slowing down a great deal. I'm sure his path there forms is a rather large arc (several feet in radius). It's hard to tell because he goes behind Truly when he's turning.

What makes you think he slowed down at all? Can you see him slowing down in Darnell?

I can't see a slow down. What I *barely* see is his body jerking forward when his foot hits the road, right before he goes behind the tall guy. The way a person would skid to a stop, except he doesn't stop, but rather turns right. But it might just be me expecting it. If there is a skid, then his turn may not have been the large arc I surmised.

--Tommy :sun

PS Truly was not the tall guy. Truly was short and was wearing a dark suit and fedora that day.

PPS The girl is running toward the right side of the doorway?

Yes. I know it looks like she is closer to the center rail, but that's an illusion. It takes careful study, possibly including watching her shadow (I don't recall), to see where she is headed. But it is to the right side. At the end of the clip her foot is about to step atop the sidewalk, IIRC. At the

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Sandy,

Not that it matters, but which "running girl" are you talking about? The person I've been calling Running Woman who is running from left to right and is wearing a white sweater / blouse and a black dress?

Or somebody else?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

PPS The girl is running toward the right side of the doorway?

Yes, she absolutely is running toward the right side. Watch it carefully and don't let perspective fool you. Running straight across the road looks like running at a 45 degree angle (not 90 degrees), from left to right across the screen.

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Sandy,

Not that it matters, but which "running girl" are you talking about? The person I've been calling Running Woman who is running from left to right down Elm Street Extension and is wearing a white sweater / blouse and a black dress?

Or somebody else?

--Tommy :sun

bumped for Sandy Larsen, who apparently missed it

Jesis Maria

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Sandy,

Not that it matters, but which "running girl" are you talking about? The person I've been calling Running Woman who is running from left to right and is wearing a white sweater / blouse and a black dress?

Or somebody else?

--Tommy :sun

Oh, the woman you're talking about is far to the left. I'm talking about the girl who starts out just behind the tall guy, and then emerges from behind him and runs to the sidewalk. Her dress is gray and her hair is dark. When I watch her she strikes me as being a young woman, which is why I call her a girl. (Maybe that's not PC these days.)

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No, it was not a hunch, Greg, and you can take that to the bank. I did a great amount of very careful research on this matter, and there were a great number of other factors that pointed toward Baker not immediately entering the TSBD.

Wasn't Bart Kamp a great defender of Baker immediately entering the TSBD? Or was he always defending Lovelady and Shelley being seen in the Couch/Darnell film, walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker ran in the opposite direction? I recall he left your forum in a big huff at least once, vowing never to return. And then came back a week later. Isn't that what your buddy MacRae does on a regular basis here?

Whatever the case, I have bumped the thread "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD" just to show it was slightly more than a "hunch" that made me question Baker's movements.

Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

Thanks for that, Sandy. Unfortunately, Peggy Joyce Hawkins' statement (wonder if she is related to Sadie Hawkins) does not go into a lot of detail, other than to say there was a motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD "at that time" and that she "heard some remarks over his radio".

As all of the film footages seem to show only one motorcycle in front of the TSBD, and we assume the motorcycle belongs to Baker, would we also be correct in assuming the motorcycle cop Ms. Hawkins refers to is Baker? And, can we also assume that being in front of the TSBD "at that time" means Baker was standing still on the sidewalk? This hardly seems to be the way one would describe a man running flat out into a building.

However, there is more to her statement. First, she tells us she had her small child with her. Next, she tells us she walked back to the front of the TSBD.

From her FBI statement:

"She stated she stayed behind the retaining wall until she realized there would be no more shots and then walked back to the front of the TSBD building. She said that a motorcycle police officer was in front of the building at this time and that she heard over his radio some remarks about the railroad yards near the building."

As the retaining wall is also in front of the TSBD, I believe we can all agree that Ms. Hawkins meant the front steps of the TSBD when she stated she walked back "to the front of the TSBD building". I think we can also agree that "at this time" refers to the time she arrived at the steps.

Does anyone see a woman with a small child in front of the TSBD steps in any of the film footages?

There is no small child, so no Peggy Hawkins. Unlike Baker, she wasn't in a hurry to get to the TSBD. If the officer is Baker, clearly he didn't run up those steps that he was headed for at full speed in the film. He could have run up later... who knows. But not then.

As you've said, beside Shelley and Lovelady, only one person (Pauline Saunders) said she saw him run up the stairs, and her testimony is questionable. Nobody else noticed Baker running in. Maybe he walked in and that's why he wasn't noticed. Or maybe he went in later, after the employees had gone inside. Maybe when he went in, Pauline Saunders was the only one still outside, thus explaining her testimony.

But the important thing is that Baker didn't go in right away.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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No, it was not a hunch, Greg, and you can take that to the bank. I did a great amount of very careful research on this matter, and there were a great number of other factors that pointed toward Baker not immediately entering the TSBD.

Wasn't Bart Kamp a great defender of Baker immediately entering the TSBD? Or was he always defending Lovelady and Shelley being seen in the Couch/Darnell film, walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker ran in the opposite direction? I recall he left your forum in a big huff at least once, vowing never to return. And then came back a week later. Isn't that what your buddy MacRae does on a regular basis here?

Whatever the case, I have bumped the thread "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD" just to show it was slightly more than a "hunch" that made me question Baker's movements.

Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

Thanks for that, Sandy. Unfortunately, Peggy Joyce Hawkins' statement (wonder if she is related to Sadie Hawkins) does not go into a lot of detail, other than to say there was a motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD "at that time" and that she "heard some remarks over his radio".

As all of the film footages seem to show only one motorcycle in front of the TSBD, and we assume the motorcycle belongs to Baker, would we also be correct in assuming the motorcycle cop Ms. Hawkins refers to is Baker? And, can we also assume that being in front of the TSBD "at that time" means Baker was standing still on the sidewalk? This hardly seems to be the way one would describe a man running flat out into a building.

However, there is more to her statement. First, she tells us she had her small child with her. Next, she tells us she walked back to the front of the TSBD.

From her FBI statement:

"She stated she stayed behind the retaining wall until she realized there would be no more shots and then walked back to the front of the TSBD building. She said that a motorcycle police officer was in front of the building at this time and that she heard over his radio some remarks about the railroad yards near the building."

As the retaining wall is also in front of the TSBD, I believe we can all agree that Ms. Hawkins meant the front steps of the TSBD when she stated she walked back "to the front of the TSBD building". I think we can also agree that "at this time" refers to the time she arrived at the steps.

Does anyone see a woman with a small child in front of the TSBD steps in any of the film footages?

There is no small child, so no Peggy Hawkins. Unlike Baker, she wasn't in a hurry to get to the TSBD. If the officer is Baker, clearly he didn't run up those steps that he was headed for at full speed in the film. He could have run up later... who knows. But not then.

As you've said, beside Shelley and Lovelady, only one person (Pauline Saunders) said she saw him run up the stairs, and her testimony is questionable. Nobody else noticed Baker running in. Maybe he walked in and that's why he wasn't noticed. Or maybe he went in later, after the employees had gone inside. Maybe when he went in, Pauline Saunders was the only one still outside, thus explaining her testimony.

But the important thing is that Baker didn't go in right away.

Sandy,

Clearly ???

LOL You gotta be kiddin' !

Excellent point, though, about nobody's even noticing Baker's running towards the TSBD from his motorcycle, although we know that he did, thanks to Couch and Darnell.

With all those people milling around, would you really expect Baker to run a straight line?

I don't see him change his direction much, if any, anyway How many degrees do you think he changes his route near "Jumbo"? Ten? Fifteen? Forty-five?

Since Baker is only in front of the center of the steps when the clip ends, how do you know he didn't run (or walk) up them instead of past them?

Also: Why do you say Pauline Saunders' testimony is "questionable"?

Because we're reading an unsigned copy of her signed FBI statement?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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No, it was not a hunch, Greg, and you can take that to the bank. I did a great amount of very careful research on this matter, and there were a great number of other factors that pointed toward Baker not immediately entering the TSBD.

Wasn't Bart Kamp a great defender of Baker immediately entering the TSBD? Or was he always defending Lovelady and Shelley being seen in the Couch/Darnell film, walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker ran in the opposite direction? I recall he left your forum in a big huff at least once, vowing never to return. And then came back a week later. Isn't that what your buddy MacRae does on a regular basis here?

Whatever the case, I have bumped the thread "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD" just to show it was slightly more than a "hunch" that made me question Baker's movements.

Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

Thanks for that, Sandy. Unfortunately, Peggy Joyce Hawkins' statement (wonder if she is related to Sadie Hawkins) does not go into a lot of detail, other than to say there was a motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD "at that time" and that she "heard some remarks over his radio".

As all of the film footages seem to show only one motorcycle in front of the TSBD, and we assume the motorcycle belongs to Baker, would we also be correct in assuming the motorcycle cop Ms. Hawkins refers to is Baker? And, can we also assume that being in front of the TSBD "at that time" means Baker was standing still on the sidewalk? This hardly seems to be the way one would describe a man running flat out into a building.

However, there is more to her statement. First, she tells us she had her small child with her. Next, she tells us she walked back to the front of the TSBD.

From her FBI statement:

"She stated she stayed behind the retaining wall until she realized there would be no more shots and then walked back to the front of the TSBD building. She said that a motorcycle police officer was in front of the building at this time and that she heard over his radio some remarks about the railroad yards near the building."

As the retaining wall is also in front of the TSBD, I believe we can all agree that Ms. Hawkins meant the front steps of the TSBD when she stated she walked back "to the front of the TSBD building". I think we can also agree that "at this time" refers to the time she arrived at the steps.

Does anyone see a woman with a small child in front of the TSBD steps in any of the film footages?

There is no small child, so no Peggy Hawkins. Unlike Baker, she wasn't in a hurry to get to the TSBD. If the officer is Baker, clearly he didn't run up those steps that he was headed for at full speed in the film. He could have run up later... who knows. But not then.

As you've said, beside Shelley and Lovelady, only one person (Pauline Saunders) said she saw him run up the stairs, and her testimony is questionable. Nobody else noticed Baker running in. Maybe he walked in and that's why he wasn't noticed. Or maybe he went in later, after the employees had gone inside. Maybe when he went in, Pauline Saunders was the only one still outside, thus explaining her testimony.

But the important thing is that Baker didn't go in right away.

Sandy,

Clearly ???

LOL You gotta be kiddin' !

Excellent point, though, about nobody's even noticing Baker's running towards the TSBD from his motorcycle, although we know that he did, thanks to Couch and Darnell.

With all those people milling around, would you really expect Baker to run a straight line?

I don't see him change his direction much, if any, anyway How many degrees do you think he changes his route near "Jumbo"? Ten? Fifteen? Forty-five?

Since Baker is only in front of the center of the steps when the clip ends, how do you know he didn't run (or walk) up them instead of past them?

Also: Why do you say Pauline Saunders' testimony is "questionable"?

Because we're reading an unsigned copy of her signed FBI statement?

--Tommy :sun

Bumped for Sandy Larsen.

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No, it was not a hunch, Greg, and you can take that to the bank. I did a great amount of very careful research on this matter, and there were a great number of other factors that pointed toward Baker not immediately entering the TSBD.

Wasn't Bart Kamp a great defender of Baker immediately entering the TSBD? Or was he always defending Lovelady and Shelley being seen in the Couch/Darnell film, walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker ran in the opposite direction? I recall he left your forum in a big huff at least once, vowing never to return. And then came back a week later. Isn't that what your buddy MacRae does on a regular basis here?

Whatever the case, I have bumped the thread "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD" just to show it was slightly more than a "hunch" that made me question Baker's movements.

Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

Thanks for that, Sandy. Unfortunately, Peggy Joyce Hawkins' statement (wonder if she is related to Sadie Hawkins) does not go into a lot of detail, other than to say there was a motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD "at that time" and that she "heard some remarks over his radio".

As all of the film footages seem to show only one motorcycle in front of the TSBD, and we assume the motorcycle belongs to Baker, would we also be correct in assuming the motorcycle cop Ms. Hawkins refers to is Baker? And, can we also assume that being in front of the TSBD "at that time" means Baker was standing still on the sidewalk? This hardly seems to be the way one would describe a man running flat out into a building.

However, there is more to her statement. First, she tells us she had her small child with her. Next, she tells us she walked back to the front of the TSBD.

From her FBI statement:

"She stated she stayed behind the retaining wall until she realized there would be no more shots and then walked back to the front of the TSBD building. She said that a motorcycle police officer was in front of the building at this time and that she heard over his radio some remarks about the railroad yards near the building."

As the retaining wall is also in front of the TSBD, I believe we can all agree that Ms. Hawkins meant the front steps of the TSBD when she stated she walked back "to the front of the TSBD building". I think we can also agree that "at this time" refers to the time she arrived at the steps.

Does anyone see a woman with a small child in front of the TSBD steps in any of the film footages?

There is no small child, so no Peggy Hawkins. Unlike Baker, she wasn't in a hurry to get to the TSBD. If the officer is Baker, clearly he didn't run up those steps that he was headed for at full speed in the film. He could have run up later... who knows. But not then.

As you've said, beside Shelley and Lovelady, only one person (Pauline Saunders) said she saw him run up the stairs, and her testimony is questionable. Nobody else noticed Baker running in. Maybe he walked in and that's why he wasn't noticed. Or maybe he went in later, after the employees had gone inside. Maybe when he went in, Pauline Saunders was the only one still outside, thus explaining her testimony.

But the important thing is that Baker didn't go in right away.

Sandy,

Clearly ???

LOL You gotta be kiddin' !

You do know, don't you, that that statement isn't in regard to the film? I was referring to the Peggy Hawkins statement. And yes, based on her testimony, Baker clearly didn't run up the steps as part of his initial dash toward the stairs. (That assumes that the officer she saw was Baker.)

Excellent point, though, about nobody's even noticing Baker's running towards the TSBD from his motorcycle, although we know that he did, thanks to Couch and Darnell.

Actually the point was that nobody saw Baker running up the stairs, and into the TSBD. Because he didn't. Not right away anyway, as people generally believe.

With all those people milling around, would you really expect Baker to run a straight line?

No, and neither would I expect him to try to run up the crowded side of the handrail, as your scenario would have him do.

There was no reason for him to make a right turn where he did if he wanted to go up the stairs. In fact, he should have turned a little left instead if that is what he wanted to do, because the stairway was less crowded on that side.

I don't see him change his direction much, if any, anyway How many degrees do you think he changes his route near "Jumbo"? Ten? Fifteen? Forty-five?

Thirty degrees. That's my estimate. And he was still ~17 ft away from the base of the stairway when he turned. So at that time he wasn't headed anywhere near the entrance. More like the intersection.

Since Baker is only in front of the center of the steps when the clip ends, how do you know he didn't run (or walk) up them instead of past them?

Naturally he could have changed his mind again after the film clip ended, made a sudden left turn toward the stairs, and ran up them. But there is no reason to believe he did that.

Also: Why do you say Pauline Saunders' testimony is "questionable"?

Because I was told that a month ago or so, I checked into it myself, and I agreed with the person who told me. I don't recall now what the reason is. I noticed that Bart said the same above (or on the other, related thread that is going).

Because we're reading an unsigned copy of her signed FBI statement?

--Tommy :sun

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I don't think Thomas quite appreciates the full implications of Ms. Hawkins' statement. She seems to believe the motorcycle parked at the curb and the motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD belonged to each other. Could that be because Baker was the only officer in front of the TSBD in a white helmet, pretty much making him the owner of the motorcycle by default?

Thank God Ms. Hawkins had a small child, and brought that child with her that day. This makes the task of finding Ms. Hawkins so much easier, as all we have to do is look for someone near the entrance with a small child in tow.

However, if she was at the TSBD steps, with child, when she saw Officer Baker, this pretty much confirms Baker did not enter the front door of the TSBD as early as he testified to doing, as I have scoured the Darnell film, and have not been able to find a woman with a small child.

Remember, too, that Ms. Hawkins laid low behind the retaining wall until she felt there would be no more shots, while Baker booked it for the TSBD as soon as he heard the shots. Who do you think got there first?

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

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I don't think Thomas quite appreciates the full implications of Ms. Hawkins' statement. She seems to believe the motorcycle parked at the curb and the motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD belonged to each other. Could that be because Baker was the only officer in front of the TSBD in a white helmet, pretty much making him the owner of the motorcycle by default?

Thank God Ms. Hawkins had a small child, and brought that child with her that day. This makes the task of finding Ms. Hawkins so much easier, as all we have to do is look for someone near the entrance with a small child in tow.

However, if she was at the TSBD steps, with child, when she saw Officer Baker, this pretty much confirms Baker did not enter the front door of the TSBD as early as he testified to doing, as I have scoured the Darnell film, and have not been able to find a woman with a small child.

Remember, too, that Ms. Hawkins laid low behind the retaining wall until she felt there would be no more shots, while Baker booked it for the TSBD as soon as he heard the shots. Who do you think got there first?

Exactly, Robert.

As you probably can tell, I was already strongly leaning toward the conclusion that Baker didn't go in immediately. Observing his abrupt right turn convinced me of that. Beside the other evidence. This Hawkins memo pretty much seals the deal for me.

This should also lay to rest the idea that Baker, being the great guy he is, would never lie, especially under oath. I think he is a great guy. I think he is patriotic and that is why he is willing to lie. He undoubtedly was told that something awful like WW3 might result if the truth were made known.

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Sandy,

My point was that nobody but Truly, Lovelady/Shelley, and Saunders said they saw Baker running, period, which suggests that very few people were paying attention to what was going on around them there on the "island," in the Elm Street Extension, on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD, and on the TSBD front steps. Clearly, obviously, they were paying more attention to the cars and motorcycles (with sirens on?) speeding down Elm Street, and to what was going on down there on the Grassy Knoll. You know, photographers taking pictures of spectators who had thrown themselves on the ground, etc?

Robert's argument that Pauline Saunder's FBI statement was "cooked" is based on the unfortunate fact that it doesn't jibe with his theory-in-progress, and because it didn't have Saunder's signature on it. I tried to show him that what we were looking at was just an unsigned copy of her signed statement, but it was like trying to make a horse drink after you've led it to water.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Sandy,

My point was that nobody but Truly, Lovelady/Shelley, and Saunders said they saw Baker running, period, which suggests that very few people were paying attention to what was going on around them there on the "island," in the Elm Street Extension, on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD, and on the TSBD front steps. Clearly, obviously, they were paying more attention to the cars and motorcycles (with sirens on?) speeding down Elm Street, and to what was going on down there on the Grassy Knoll. You know, photographers taking pictures of spectators who had thrown themselves on the ground, etc?

Robert's argument that Pauline Saunder's FBI statement was "cooked" is based on the unfortunate fact that it doesn't jibe with his theory-in-progress, and because it didn't have Saunder's signature on it. I tried to show him that what we were looking at was just an unsigned copy of her signed statement, but it was like trying to make a horse drink after you've led it to water.

--Tommy :sun

Well, Thomas, Ms. Hawkins was obviously paying attention, and saw a motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD; even when he was not running and long after he was supposedly out there. Care to address that for a minute?

How many of these witnesses on the concrete island, the Elm St. extension and the sidewalk in front of the TSBD were called to testify to the WC?

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On 1/24/2016 at 11:02 PM, Robert Prudhomme said:
On 1/24/2016 at 8:18 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

My point was that nobody but Truly, Lovelady/Shelley, and Saunders said they saw Baker running, period, which suggests that very few people were paying attention to what was going on around them there on the "island," in the Elm Street Extension, on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD, and on the TSBD front steps. Clearly, obviously, they were paying more attention to the cars and motorcycles (with sirens on?) speeding down Elm Street, and to what was going on down there on the Grassy Knoll. You know, photographers taking pictures of spectators who had thrown themselves on the ground, etc?

Robert's argument that Pauline Saunder's FBI statement was "cooked" is based on the unfortunate fact that it doesn't jibe with his theory-in-progress, and because it didn't have Saunder's signature on it. I tried to show him that what we were looking at was just an unsigned copy of her signed statement, but it was like trying to make a horse drink after you've led it to water.

--Tommy :sun

Well, Thomas, Ms. Hawkins was obviously paying attention, and saw a motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD; even when he was not running and long after he was supposedly out there. Care to address that for a minute?

How many of these witnesses on the concrete island, the Elm St. extension and the sidewalk in front of the TSBD were called to testify to the WC?

Hi Bob,

As far as where Mrs. Hawkins was standing during the motorcade, the following is from an article titled "Follow-up and Continuation to First Shot / First Hit Circa Z-190" by Douglas Desalles, M.D.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/DeSalles%20Douglas%20MD/Item%2001.pdf

"Let us identify some witnesses on film. There are several clumps on Elm Street. Identifying them would help immensely. Three groups come to mind whose identification would suddenly establish better positions for 13 people.

I. 'Between the light poles' there were five from the Allyn-Bacon Publishing Co in the TSBD: Mrs Peggy Joyce Hawkins [and her 4-year-old son, John], Mrs Billie P. Clay, Miss Georgia Ruth Hendrix, Mary Williams, and Mary Dickerson.

2. 'Near the Stemmons Freeway sign' there was a Dallas Morning News group: Ann Donaldson. Mary Woodward. Maggie Brown and Miss Aurelia Alonzo.

3. 'Half way to the overpass' there were employees of the South-Western Publishing Co (TSBD: Mrs. Gloria Calverly. Miss Karen Westbrook. Carol Reed and Mrs. Karen Hicks."

Here's Mrs. Billie P. Clay's FBI statement, which mentions Mrs. John Hawkins:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pbdFAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA1444&dq=%22georgia+ruth+hendrix%22+%22Mrs.+john+hawkins%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0mpbGzsTKAhUY72MKHcYmD6wQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22georgia%20ruth%20hendrix%22%20%22Mrs.%20john%20hawkins%22&f=false

And here's Miss. Georgia Ruth Hendrix's statement, which also mentions Mrs. John Hawkins. Note that both statements say they were standing on Elm Street, about 150 from the TSBD. https://books.google.com/books?id=pbdFAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA1452&lpg=PA1452&dq=%22john+hawkins%22+%22411+elm%22&source=bl&ots=MkMgiIsowb&sig=FZT8S3Xg7wZlV8CUX9VL5B17hZo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZxrCRv8TKAhVB_GMKHX6KDN0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22john%20hawkins%22%20%22411%20elm%22&f=false

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Sandy,

My point was that nobody but Truly, Lovelady/Shelley, and Saunders said they saw Baker running, period, which suggests that very few people were paying attention to what was going on around them there on the "island," in the Elm Street Extension, on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD, and on the TSBD front steps. Clearly, obviously, they were paying more attention to the cars and motorcycles (with sirens on?) speeding down Elm Street, and to what was going on down there on the Grassy Knoll. You know, photographers taking pictures of spectators who had thrown themselves on the ground, etc?

Robert's argument that Pauline Saunder's FBI statement was "cooked" is based on the unfortunate fact that it doesn't jibe with his theory-in-progress, and because it didn't have Saunder's signature on it. I tried to show him that what we were looking at was just an unsigned copy of her signed statement, but it was like trying to make a horse drink after you've led it to water.

--Tommy :sun

Well, Thomas, Ms. Hawkins was obviously paying attention, and saw a motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD; even when he was not running and long after he was supposedly out there. Care to address that for a minute?

How many of these witnesses on the concrete island, the Elm St. extension and the sidewalk in front of the TSBD were called to testify to the WC?

Hi Bob,

As far as where Mrs. John Hawkins (Peggy Joyce Hawkins) was standing during the motorcade, the following is from an article titled "Follow-up and Continuation to First Shot / First Hit Circa Z-190" by Douglas Desalles, M.D.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/DeSalles%20Douglas%20MD/Item%2001.pdf

"Let us identify some witnesses on film. There are several clumps on Elm Street. Identifying them would help immensely. Three groups come to mind whose identification would suddenly establish better positions for 13 people.

I. 'Between the light poles' there were five from the Allyn-Bacon Publishing Co in the TSBD: Mrs Peggy Joyce Hawkins [and her 4-year-old son, John], Mrs Billie P. Clay, Miss Georgia Ruth Hendrix, Mary Williams, and Mary Dickerson.

2. 'Near the Stemmons Freeway sign' there was a Dallas Morning News group: Ann Donaldson. Mary Woodward. Maggie Brown and Miss Aurelia Alonzo.

3. 'Half way to the overpass' there were employees of the South-Western Publishing Co (TSBD: Mrs. Gloria Calverly. Miss Karen Westbrook. Carol Reed and Mrs. Karen Hicks."

FWIW, Here's Mrs. Billie P. Clay's FBI statement, which mentions Mrs. John Hawkins and her young son, John:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pbdFAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA1444&dq=%22georgia+ruth+hendrix%22+%22Mrs.+john+hawkins%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0mpbGzsTKAhUY72MKHcYmD6wQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22georgia%20ruth%20hendrix%22%20%22Mrs.%20john%20hawkins%22&f=false

And here's Miss. Georgia Ruth Hendrix's statement, which also mentions Mrs. John Hawkins and her young son, John. Note that both statements say they were standing on Elm Street about 150 west from the TSBD entrance. https://books.google.com/books?id=pbdFAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA1452&lpg=PA1452&dq=%22john+hawkins%22+%22411+elm%22&source=bl&ots=MkMgiIsowb&sig=FZT8S3Xg7wZlV8CUX9VL5B17hZo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZxrCRv8TKAhVB_GMKHX6KDN0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22john%20hawkins%22%20%22411%20elm%22&f=false

--Tommy :sun

PS Roberdeau has Hawkins just below the big green circle with the red stripe on his map (click on the top map):

http://i.imgur.com/QcAKTOp.gif

edited and bumped for Robert Prudhomme

Edited by Thomas Graves

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