Maria Hyde

[Mathias Baumann]

According to Anthony Summers Maria Hyde was an American tourist who met Oswald on two different occasions in Russia, in Moscow and in Minsk. She was traveling with two other women, whom Summers interviewed. They told him that they'd met Hyde in Moscow and that she appeared to know Russia very well.

Does anyone have more detailed information on Ms Hyde?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

What is his source for this-is it his own interviews?

[Mathias Baumann]

45 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

What is his source for this-is it his own interviews?

The source is  "Not in Your Lifetime", chapter "An Intelligence Matter". He interviewed the other two travelers, two women named Rita Naman and Monica Kramer. However, Summers was not able to trace the mysterious Ms Hyde.

According to Summers Hyde also took a photograph of Oswald - at HER initiative - that ended up in the possession of the CIA when they debriefed the women after their return to America.

[B. A. Copeland]

I swear....EVERYONE gets debriefed except for a genuine REDEFECTOR....the kind of asset Angleton cherished almost more than anything else lol...interesting person for sure. I just find it impossible to believe LHO was never debriefed. He would’ve been *prime* debrief ‘material’.

[Paul Brancato]

So curious that the last name was Hyde.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Mathias Baumann said:

The source is  "Not in Your Lifetime", chapter "An Intelligence Matter". He interviewed the other two travelers, two women named Rita Naman and Monica Kramer. However, Summers was not able to trace the mysterious Ms Hyde.

According to Summers Hyde also took a photograph of Oswald - at HER initiative - that ended up in the possession of the CIA when they debriefed the women after their return to America.

Thanks very much for your reply. According to their statements to the WC, Naman and Kramer only claimed the one meeting with LHO-in Minsk. So, where is Summers getting this? Did the women change their story when they talked to Summers? Also, according to Naman she took the photo with Hydes' camera that ended up in the WC volumes. What other photo is Summers referring to?

[Mathias Baumann]

30 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Thanks very much for your reply. According to their statements to the WC, Naman and Kramer only claimed the one meeting with LHO-in Minsk. So, where is Summers getting this? Did the women change their story when they talked to Summers? Also, according to Naman she took the photo with Hydes' camera that ended up in the WC volumes. What other photo is Summers referring to?

Quote

Did a U.S. agency take a look at or make contact with Oswald in the later stages of his stay in the Soviet Union? Photographs of Oswald, standing beside a British-registered car, in Minsk's Central Square, may point to that. The Warren Report noted that two photos had been "taken by American tourists" in August 1961 - a few months after Oswald's marriage to Marina. The tourists, according to the Report, "did not know Oswald, nor did they speak with him; they remembered only that several men gathered near their car". The Commission had been supplied with the photographs by the CIA.

Background documents and interviews enlarge on the Warren account. Three American women, on a motoring tour, had exchanged "small talk" with Oswald while taking the photographs. On their return, according to the CIA, the three were contacted in line with a then-common Agency custom of contacting Americans fresh home from Iron Curtain countries. Of more than 150 photographs borrowed from the women by the CIA, just five were copied and filed. CIA staff supposedly realized only after the assassination that Oswald featured in one of them. One of the women later supplied another photo in which he appeared.

The way the Oswald photo just happened to have been culled in the original selection - out of 150 available - strains belief. One CIA employee said the choice was made because an Intourist guide appeared in the shot, another that it "showed a crane in the background". One of the three former tourists, contacted by the author, cast a whole new light on the episode.

Rita Naman, who is of British origin, said that while she and a friend, Monica Kramer, were touring the Soviet Union by car - a rare expedition in those Cold War years - they encountered Oswald not once but twice. First in Moscow, in early August, when he alarmed their Intourist guide by addressing them through the open window of the car. Later in the square in Minsk, he had again approached the car, and been photographed. Is it likely that the two meetings, in the space of ten days and in cities more than four hundred miles apart, happened merely by chance?

The identity and role of the third of the female tourists turns out to be intriguing. She was Marie Hyde, an older American who struck up an acquaintance with Naman and Kramer at their Hotel in Moscow. Hyde, Naman recalled, was not the average tourist. She seemed familiar with Russia, knew her way round the Moscow subway and, in general, came over as "a very sharp cookie". Kramer, Naman told the author, remarked early on, not too seriously, that Hyde could be some sort of American agent.

The author could not trace Hyde or find out anything much about her background. Naman, however, added curious details of how she came to be with them on their tour in the first place. Hyde had approached them in Moscow, saying she was "separated from her tourist group" and wanted to join them on the trip to Minsk, then - through Poland- back to the West. Such a deviation from the prearranged schedule was very much out of the ordinary in the USSR of those Cold War day. Hyde managed it, though, and in Minsk - when they encountered Oswald in the square - it was very much at her initiative that photographs were taken. Hyde took one photograph herself, then gave her own camera to Naman to get a second shot.

Source: Anthony Summers, Not in Your Lifetime

 

37 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

So curious that the last name was Hyde.

Yes, I noticed that too. Ruth Hyde Paine had a peculiar interest in Russian Culture. Do we know if she ever traveled to the USSR? I also remember reading on a different thread here, that she was interested in Oswald years before she ever met him.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Mathias Baumann
typos

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Rita Naman, who is of British origin, said that while she and a friend, Monica Kramer, were touring the Soviet Union by car - a rare expedition in those Cold War years - they encountered Oswald not once but twice. First in Moscow, in early August, when he alarmed their Intourist guide by addressing them through the open window of the car.

LHO was not in Moscow in "early August" but was in Minsk. He left Moscow, where he had gone for a short time to arrange his return to the US, in early-mid July (likely no later than the 13th since he wrote Robert from Minsk on the 14th). In any case, I appreciate the information Mathias as I had heard it mentioned before that LHO was seen twice by these women and wondered about the source.

Edited October 24, 2018 by W. Tracy Parnell

[Guest]

Nothing in the following about encountering Oswald in Moscow.  I don't find any of this suspicious in the slightest, but then I'm not trying to sell conspiracy books.  Is everyone named Hyde suspected of being connected to Ruth Paine?  Summers "could not trace Hyde or find out anything much about her background"?  The following represents about 93 seconds of research.  

See:  http://www.toronto.hm/hyde_in_minsk.html

See:  http://www.toronto.hm/fbi_on_naman_and_kramer.html

This is her:

Marie Loretta Gray Hyde

Birth 4 Nov 1899

Doniphan, Ripley County, Missouri, USA

Death 1 Dec 1985 (aged 86)

Palm Springs, Riverside County, California, USA

Burial Cremated, Location of ashes is unknown

This is her husband:

Capt. Loring Franklin Hyde, ship salvage officer extraordinary, began a seafaring career of adventure, in coastal sailing schooners in New England that took him to nearly every art of the seven seas. During two world wars, Captain Hyde was an officer of a troopship and salvage officer in the USS Discoverer. In recognition of his work in the Discoverer in World War II he received a Navy citation, which stated that his ship was in 6 major salvage projects in the 13th naval District during which vessels and cargoes valued at $700 million were salvaged.
Captain Hyde's ship salvaging career has taken him from the North Atlantic Coast to the Caribbean, the Western Pacific, to Pago Pago, to the far-flung Aleutians and the Bering Sea.
Rescue of shipwrecked mariners, patching and saving many ships in distress and braving Japanese bombing attacks aimed at high explosives being salvaged in the Aleutians, are only a few of Captain Hyde's thrilling experiences.
Son of a salvage officer of the F. H. Scott Salvage Co., of New York and Boston, Captain Hyde was born in New London, Conn., April 23, 1898. Young Hyde started going to sea during school vacations when he was 14 years old. He was a "hand" aboard old-time New England coastal sailing schooners, carrying coal and potatoes between Atlantic Coast ports. Hyde often operated the schooners' hand pumps to free the vessels of bilge and sea water.
In 1913, he left high school and took a full-time job in the employ of the salvage firm, with which his father, Henry F. Hyde was connected.

Sailed in Troopship to Europe
Hyde worked on shipwrecks and marine construction jobs and studied navigation, and at the beginning of World War I, received his third mate's papers. Joining the Army Transport Service, he sailed aboard a troopship taking soldiers to Europe.
At the end of World War I, and with second mate's papers, Hyde returned to salvage work on the Atlantic Coast. Meanwhile, the Scott Company consolidated and became Merritt, Chapman & Scott.

Survey ship, operated by the salvage company for the Navy.
Captain Hyde was salvage officer and company agent for Merritt, Chapman & Scott on the Discoverer until she was decommissioned in November 1946.
While the Discoverer was operating out of Port Angeles, the Japanese invaded Alaska, and the salvage vessel helped rescue or salvage 36 ships grounded on the Alaska and British Columbia coasts.

Under Bombing Attack
The Japanese had command of the air over the Aleutians and Captain Hyde's ship was under constant bombing attack while salvaging high explosives from the stranded U. S. attack transport Arthur Middleton. The vessel was aground in Amchitka Bay. Japanese bombers from their base 72 miles away, dropped bombs frequently within 150 yards of the salvage vessel and ammunition scows.
It was while on another mission that the Discoverer rescued 30 men from the steamer Mapeli, aground at Cape Devine, Alaska. Ten of the men were taken directly from the stranded steamer by the Discoverer's lifeboats, and 20 from a rock on the beach, under a high cliff.
After the Discoverer was decommissioned at Port Angeles in 1946, Captain Hyde, who had dropped the home port anchor, was called to assist in salvaging $3 ½ million worth of canned salmon from the sunken steamer Diamond Knot. He was salvage master under Walter Martignoni of San Francisco.

Sank After Collision
The Diamond Knot, en route from Alaska, sank off Port Crescent after a collision with the SS Fenn Victory on Aug. 13, 1947. Seventy per cent of the salmon cargo was recovered.
Captain Hyde is a member of Nile Temple of the Shrine, Seattle; past president of the Shrine Club of Port Angeles, past president and a life member of the Port Angeles Salmon Club, a member of the Rotary Club and the Elks in Port Angeles, honorary chief journalist of the navy and over-all drive chairman of the UGN for Clallam county.

[Guest]

Just in case you're really into this Hyde stuff, she was a member of Eastern Star and a life master bridge player.  Her son who survived her was Donald J. Hyde of Harbor City, CA.  She lived in the Palm Springs area for the last 24 years of her life and died at Coachella Valley Care Convalescent Hospital.  I got this from the Desert Sun of December 7, 1985.  The Desert Sun has no known CIA connections.  Ruth Hyde Paine was not mentioned in the obituary, which I personally find highly suspicious.

I won't beat this to death, but these were obviously pretty wealthy people - there are lots of "society"-type references in newspapers you can find online.

Peter Fokes, a member here who last posted in 2013, appears to be the fount of information on Mrs. Hyde.  His name even turned up in genealogical forums relating to her family.  The www.toronto.hm website appears to be his.

I am now up to over 6 minutes of research!

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Guest

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

I don't find any of this suspicious in the slightest, but then I'm not trying to sell conspiracy books. 

Another one put to bed as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for the info.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Forgot to mention that even John Armstrong wouldn't use this in his book. Of course, since "Harvey" was in Minsk and not Moscow in "early August" and "Lee" was in the US that would require a third Oswald to have been in Moscow.

[Mathias Baumann]

13 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Another one put to bed as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for the info.

Tracy,

what exactly can be put to bed in your opinion? Ruth Paine and Marie Hyde can't be the same person as Lance has shown, that "can be put to bed", yes.

But that doesn't mean that Raman was lying about the Oswald encounter in Moscow. Why would she? I can see no reason. I'm sure there's a kernel of truth in her story. Maybe she met a different American in Moscow and she conflated these memories. Maybe she met Robert Webster in Moscow, who knows...

But when the CIA picked Oswald's photo they certainly betrayed an interest in him. And some pages later Summers cites testimony that Oswald was indeed debriefed when he returned to the USA, a fact the CIA has always denied.

 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Mathias Baumann

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

what exactly can be put to bed in your opinion? Ruth Paine and Marie Hyde can't be the same person as Lance has shown, that "can be put to bed", yes.

In addition to what Lance refuted, the allegation that anyone saw LHO on two occasions can be dismissed IMO. In your original post you stated it was Hyde (who evidently is more interesting to theorists because of her name) who met him twice, but according to the passage you quoted it was Naman. Anyway, since the three women gave sworn statements that were nearly identical and said nothing about 2 meetings and indeed had "no independent recollection" of LHO, I tend to believe that over Summers' contention about what she said during an interview which was undoubtedly years later.

As far as if Naman was lying, you are correct-there could be other explanations for her alleged statements. But it really doesn't matter since LHO was not in Moscow in "early August" as a close look at his chronology shows. So if she said it was him she was wrong unless you are subscribing to some sort of double or triple Oswald theory that John Armstrong wouldn't touch. As for why the CIA picked those particular photos, we can speculate but will never know for sure unless some new documents on the subject are released. But I just see the whole thing as going nowhere and I don't see Hyde as suspicious or as a 62-year-old spy of some kind. In my opinion, it was just what it seemed-a coincidence that they came across LHO and photographed him. In any case, I do thank you for quoting the Summers book because I don't have that particular title at the moment and it was very helpful to me. I am working on a LHO chronology and that was one issue I wanted to clear up.

[Mathias Baumann]

15 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

In addition to what Lance refuted, the allegation that anyone saw LHO on two occasions can be dismissed IMO. In your original post you stated it was Hyde (who evidently is more interesting to theorists because of her name) who met him twice, but according to the passage you quoted it was Naman. Anyway, since the three women gave sworn statements that were nearly identical and said nothing about 2 meetings and indeed had "no independent recollection" of LHO, I tend to believe that over Summers' contention about what she said during an interview which was undoubtedly years later.

As far as if Naman was lying, you are correct-there could be other explanations for her alleged statements. But it really doesn't matter since LHO was not in Moscow in "early August" as a close look at his chronology shows. So if she said it was him she was wrong unless you are subscribing to some sort of double or triple Oswald theory that John Armstrong wouldn't touch. As for why the CIA picked those particular photos, we can speculate but will never know for sure unless some new documents on the subject are released. But I just see the whole thing as going nowhere and I don't see Hyde as suspicious or as a 62-year-old spy of some kind. In my opinion, it was just what it seemed-a coincidence that they came across LHO and photographed him. In any case, I do thank you for quoting the Summers book because I don't have that particular title at the moment and it was very helpful to me. I am working on a LHO chronology and that was one issue I wanted to clear up.

You're welcome, Tracy.

Concerning Mrs Hyde: No, I don't think she was a full-time spy. But she may have come into contact with the CIA more than once. Remember that she appeared to be very familiar with Moscow. I guess if she visited Iron Curtain countries frequently, she may have established a regular connection to the agency, without being on their payroll officially. We know that George de Mohrenschild had a similar relationship to the CIA, so that may not have been uncommon.

So it appears all the more suspicious that the CIA maintains they never questioned Oswald when he returned. He'd lived in Russia for more than two years, he certainly had more valuable information to offer than any tourist.