Bill Miller

i want to know who thought this woman was Gloria Calvery as it is not her at all. So someone tell me where is Calvery post shooting in any films or photos that prevent her from having ran back to the steps of the TSBD as Shelley and Lovelady stated?

Even the name of the thread would be good and I could do a search. By the way ... would you like for me to copy and paste the information I have posted since posting back and forth with you compared to what you responded with - I really don't mind backing up what I say. That is the beauty of forum discussions for the data remains in place.

Several things .... the how isn't as important as seeing that effect show up on other peoples clothing giving a similar appearance. How did those plaid designs show up - were they there in the raw image ... of course they were not! And from that distance and on such a poor quality image - no white stripes should even be visible --- especially as large as they appear to be. The same with the dark squares. I am just not impressed with your casual less than thorough examination of these points.

Work - I have posted far more source material since discussing this with either one of you than both of you put together. Now I ask again - what is the source for the image you spoke of. Do you not remember if it was a film or a photo or who took it?

Source???

Bart, I would like for those two guys to be Shelly and Lovelady, but without the contrast being bumped way up to give the appearance of a plaid shirt on one man is a man-made image - the coat is not plaid. It is quite a bit lower in the back to which the shirt of Loverlady's was not tailored that way. The manipulation of that image from its raw state has given a similar false plaid design to other peoples clothing too.

I also hold Robin and Chris in high regard as researchers of the assassination (not sure that makes them anymore of a photo expert as I am) and I would be most interested in how they time stamped Bakers run against the time of the shooting as I was quite active back in the days that cross referencing films and photos was going on. And while I don't want to take away from the high esteem they deserve - I will remind you that there are those who hold Fetzer in high esteem and yet Moorman was not in the street when she took her famous Polaroid .... just addressing that "high esteem" is not relevant here. Now let me point out a few things that I considered that you have not even mentioned. To start with, I do not have to rely on the premise that Calvery 'must have been pretty close to the limousine' when JFK was hit as she is the third woman to the left of the Stemmons Freeway Sign in the Zapruder film. So seeing blood as she put it didn't call for her being close because Bill Newman who was further away than she was saw blood as soon as the shooting started. At that time - Officer Baker was still on Houston Street. So let us assume for arguments sake that Lovelady and Shelly were both independently wrong as to where they were located in the Plaza when they saw Baker's run from the divider to the front of the TSBD, but they did say that they looked back to see Truly and Baker going up the steps, and the camera doesn't lie as those men were not on the steps when Baker made it to the other side of the street, so where were they? Perhaps they were where they said they were, so now its all down a timing problem with them meeting Calvery based on what you have said. I felt the same way, but I read that Calvery came running back up to the depository building. So let us consider that Calvery did run from her position on Elm Street to the steps of the TSBD. Using Patrolman Baker as a time-clock - it took him around 2 to 2.5 seconds to cross the street. During that run there is a woman (wearing a light colored top and dark skirt) seen in Darnell's film that is running towards Truly's location who appears to be running at a steeper angle to the steps than Baker and every bit as fast as Baker, if not slightly faster. Just counting the time off in my head has Baker crossing the Elm Street extension in 3 seconds. Calvery ran from a position between the two roadway signs (Stemmons and Thorton) to the steps. Once there she said, 'They shot the President!' - reply: 'Are you certain?' - 'I saw the blood ....!' It took 10 seconds from the time of the kill shot to JFK before the limo went through the underpass. That is about the time needed to run from Calvery's location to the TSBD steps. A few more seconds to have the quick exchange before Shelly and Lovelady trot over to the divider on the other side of the street where they then look back and see Patrolman Baker and Truly going up the steps.In the end - there was plenty of time for Calvery to run to the steps - have a quick exchange that the president had been shot - and Lovelady and Shelly to have reached the island as Baker and truly were going up the steps to the TSBD.

Thomas, What they are is human beings independently recalling an event from when they were in a heightened state of shock and confusion. Thirty seconds to one person may have only seemed like 10 seconds to another with neither one being accurate, so estimates of time are understandably unreliable in some cases. However, the order of the events seem to be amazingly consistent among these witnesses. Those things are as follows: 1 - shots were heard 2 - Shelly and Lovelady leave the steps after Calgary runs back to the steps and relays what she has just witnessed. 3 - Patrolman Baker pulls his cycle to the curb and dismounts 4 - Roy Truly left his position next to Mr. Campbell 10 to 20 feet into the intersection of Elm Street and moved up close to the TSBD where he is then seen in the Darnell film as Baker runs past him. - the Couch and Darnell films show Patrolman Baker running for the TSBD and passing within a few feet of Roy Truly who immediately turns towards Baker where witnesses say he went up the steps following the police officer. At the time of Baker's dash - neither Shelly nor Lovelady can be seen on the steps because they had already left them by then. 5- The things is - the assassination films support these witnesses in that area. Whether it be 15 steps or 25 steps while moving away from the TSBD steps - Shelly and Lovelady saw truly run after Baker. Sanders saw Truly run after Baker. While Molina didn't recall seeing Baker - but he remembered Truly running up the steps and estimating that to have happened around 30secs after the shooting. And until I mentioned the press cars being stopped on the street as Baker dashed towards the TSBT - I would bet that some of the people here didn't even notice it. Certainly not heard it mentioned in the timing of Baker's dash.. It really doesn't matter to me if it was 10 secs, 30secs, or 45 secs to a minute because the sequence of the events are in these witnesses recollections and appear to be generally consistent. Al Carrier - Police Officer who posted on Lancer and believed there was a conspiracy to kill JFK - used to share that when he taught a class ... he would set up a situation where he had someone come running through the classroom and then ask the students immediately afterwards to write down what they had observed about this person. The purpose of the exercise was to demonstrate that while only one person came through the room - there will be some variances between what some witnesses described the man to look like from his features to the clothing he was wearing. I bet there is not a person here who hasn't had a moment in their life when they were with someone and recalled a timing issue differently to an event that you both were present for. Both are telling the truth with each saying 'I thought is was "longer than that" or "I thought it was not that long".' That kind of thing does not automatically equate to someone lying in my view. The evidence seen of the camera cars stopped in the street with the street ahead of them void of traffic demonstrates there was ample time for a Gloria Calgary to see the President's head explode and then turn to run back the short distance to the TSBD steps and to tell Lovelady and Shelly what she had just witnessed. In the meantime Officer Baker drives his motorcycle onto Elm and parks it while pausing to assess the street up ahead and to notice some people on the ground and to be aware there are people crowding around on the little divider/island. In the meantime Lovelady and Shelly have crossed over to that island and end up looking back and seeing the white helmeted police officer dash across the Elm side street and up to the steps. Molina, still on the steps and Lovelady and Shelly from divider on the other side of the street see the Baker run up the steps. One more thing to add here ... I am trying to remember the name of a woman that said that she followed behind Truly up the steps. I think she is important because as Officer Baker runs past Truly - Roy is still facing in the direction of a woman running towards him just as he turns in the direction of the steps. Does anyone's name come to mind? First floor worker Eddie Piper said the first people he was on the first floor following the shots was Truly and Baker coming in the door to the building. Mr. BALL. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the floor? Mr. PIPER. That's right. Mr. BALL. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the shooting was who? Mr. PIPER. Mr. Truly and some fellow---I really don't know who it was; like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly. Mr. BALL. Some fellow; how was he dressed? Mr. PIPER. Oh, I don't know. Mr. BALL. Was he an officer? Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer. Mr. BALL. A police officer? Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer. Mr. BALL. Did he have a white helmet on? Mr. PIPER. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running into the building. Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do? Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out.

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Maybe they were caught in someone's cameras eye - I am certain I have never seen every photo or film taken post assassination. I can follow this ... Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute. Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there? Mr. BALL - Yes. Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street. Mr. BALL - It dead ends? Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets. Mr. BALL - Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass. Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split. Once again Ball goes over with Shelly the timing of he and Lovelady crossing the street .......... Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider. Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out? MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there. Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long? Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long. Mr. BALL - How long? Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two. Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh, Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - That's about what distance? Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards. Then Shelly was asked about how long they were in the RR Yard ..... Mr. BALL - How long would you say? Mr. SHELLEY - I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half. Mr. BALL - Then you went back to the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you trot or run back to the building? Mr. SHELLEY - We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or less. Mr. BALL - Then you went into the west end? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Again Mr. Ball asked Molina about seeing Truly enter the building .... Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in. Mr. BALL. Where were you standing? Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door. Mr. BALL. Outside the front door? Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me. Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps? Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step. Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go Mr. MOLINA. Yeah. Mr. BALL. You were still standing there? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots? Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards. Gloria Calgary had told Lovelady and Shelly about seeing blood when the shots were fired. Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building. Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building? Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building. Shelly and Lovelady left the steps soon after the shots had been fired and after a woman soon ran towards them saying she saw blood that confirmed someone in the car had been hit during the shooting. These things all happened before in the moments before Couch got his camera turned on. When Couch turns on his camera - Baker's cycle is parked at the curb just to right and ahead of the car in front of the Couch's car. That car has its passenger door open and it closes as Baker has left the island and races towards the TSBD. Going back to what Officer Baker had said in his testimony - he got off his cycle and paused momentarily to look down the street to see what was happening in that direction. The crowd was moving about him, so he then started for the building that he had seen the pigeons fly from before he parked his cycle. As Baker is almost to the the curb in front of the steps - the second press car that was stopped in the street ahead of Couch's car starts in motion. The press car ahead of Couch's car seems to just start in motion as Darnell turns off his camera. As Baker runs past Truly, Roy immediately turn toward Officer Baker and according to the witnesses I have quoted - Truly followed Baker up the steps and into the TSBD. Watch the films and see if I have it right. aniCOUCHandDARNELLsynched_gerda.bmp

How so is that not the same shirt Lovelady wore at the time of the shooting. Looks the same to me and more importantly the same length.

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute. Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there? Mr. BALL - Yes. Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street. Mr. BALL - It dead ends? Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets. Mr. BALL - Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass. Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split. Once again Ball goes over with Shelly the timing of he and Lovelady crossing the street .......... Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider. Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out? MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there. Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long? Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long. Mr. BALL - How long? Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two. Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh, Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - That's about what distance? Mr. SHELLEY - Approximately 100 yards. Then Shelly was asked about how long they were in the RR Yard ..... Mr. BALL - How long would you say? Mr. SHELLEY - I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half. Mr. BALL - Then you went back to the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you trot or run back to the building? Mr. SHELLEY - We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or less. Mr. BALL - Then you went into the west end? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Again Mr. Ball asked Molina about seeing Truly enter the building .... Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in. Mr. BALL. Where were you standing? Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door. Mr. BALL. Outside the front door? Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me. Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps? Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step. Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go Mr. MOLINA. Yeah. Mr. BALL. You were still standing there? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots? Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards. Gloria Calgary had told Lovelady and Shelly about seeing blood when the shots were fired. Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building. Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building? Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building. Shelly and Lovelady left the steps soon after the shots had been fired and after a woman soon ran towards them saying she saw blood that confirmed someone in the car had been hit during the shooting. These things all happened before in the moments before Couch got his camera turned on. When Couch turns on his camera - Baker's cycle is parked at the curb just to right and ahead of the car in front of the Couch's car. That car has its passenger door open and it closes as Baker has left the island and races towards the TSBD. Going back to what Officer Baker had said in his testimony - he got off his cycle and paused momentarily to look down the street to see what was happening in that direction. The crowd was moving about him, so he then started for the building that he had seen the pigeons fly from before he parked his cycle. As Baker is almost to the the curb in front of the steps - the second press car that was stopped in the street ahead of Couch's car starts in motion. The press car ahead of Couch's car seems to just start in motion as Darnell turns off his camera. As Baker runs past Truly, Roy immediately turn toward Officer Baker and according to the witnesses I have quoted - Truly followed Baker up the steps and into the TSBD. Watch the films and see if I have it right. aniCOUCHandDARNELLsynched_gerda.bmp

Sorry about any confusion. I will try to explain it another way ...... Lovelady's plaid shirt was a uniform length all the way around his body. That while the fuzzy man in the photo had short hair and may be balding ... he certainly wasn't the only one in the plaza that would fit that description. That was obviously ignored when it appears to me that the man in question has the front of his pants outlined against the sweater/jacket he is wearing. That sweater/jacket in the rear drops down far lower than Lovelady's shirt would go. Then there was the statements of both Lovelady and Shelly that they left the steps and immediately walked over to a location on the divider/island near the street light pole and stood there before moving down towards the RR Yard fence. Several people accepted that was Lovelady after it was suggested to them. Normally people will make mention someone's appearance that would tell others why they don't think it would be anyone else ... in this case Lovelady.

To properly test Robert's theory over the statements of the witnesses who observed the act of Baker's run seen from various angles against these lines merely drawn onto a 2D image from a skewed line of sight without regard to perspective would be to recreate the view that you are relying on against someone walking the path Baker took and comparing the two. I might add that a group of researchers came to the same conclusion that this man was Lovelady in his red plaid shirt (in the inserts) which did not make it so or else the rump of the alleged Lovelady would not be covered and the front of his trousers exposed to the belt-line. That erred observation was accepted by other researchers and was even placed into a video claiming someone had discovered Billy Lovelady walking towards the RR yard. As far as Baker running parallel to the sidewalk - if that observation was so, then Baker would not have ever make it to the other side of the street and up the steps as witnesses claimed unless they all had conspired to mislead the public on that point and all before any of them could have known there may be films or photos out there that would prove otherwise. To have that discovered would then lead to why this group of witnesses gave false information to law enforcement and could have brought charges down on them for conspiring to hinder and/or mislead an investigation into the murder of the President. As an Investigator first and foremost - I stand by that rationale and believe that these witnesses were sincere in their observations concerning the white helmet patrolman that they saw run to the TSBD steps and up to the top so to enter the building as Baker said he did.

I have seen his video. So tell me about some of these blatant discrepancies attributed to Baker.

Are you referring to Bart "Kamp"?

Good point,- who described the shirt he wore at work?

Ray ... Not sure which photo you are referring to? If I go back to the last photo showing Oswald on the left and Lovelady on the right, then "No" the shirt being discussed does not match that of the plaid shirt Lovelady wore. I don't even recall ever implying this.

Thanks again, James. I can see why Patrolman Baker after only briefly speaking to Oswald could not recall if Lee was wearing a shirt or a jacket over the polo shirt underneath.

Thanks, James.

I looked for a color image of Oswald with that shirt on to show that it fit the color description Baker had given but didn't find it, so I posted that image for most everyone has seen that shirt in a color photo. Baker while under extreme stress described the man in a way that could be said about Oswald, but Sandy is concerned that Baker was off by 30lbs and didn't get the floor number right that the lunchroom was on.

Sandy, Before we go any further - it has been no secret to anyone who has followed my history on Lancer and the Ed Forum that I whole-heartedly believe that there was a conspiracy in JFK's assassination and that Oswald was set up to be the patsy. I have spoken in Dallas on two occasions pertaining to evidence I had discovered that pointed to someone else killing the President. So when you start referring to me as a 'lone-nutter' ... you are demonstrating a certain level of ignorance about my position in this matter and that you speak not from fact, but rather from emotion. I was invited to come and look in on the forum and have said from the beginning that I am not out to convert anyone. You asked me a question pertaining to why I feel that Baker was sincere about running into the TSBD after the shots and eventually running into Oswald in the lunchroom. I added there were three films showing Officer Baker's dash to the TSBD and four witnesses who saw him go up the steps and into the building. That is pretty good evidence in support of what Baker had said concerning his actions immediately after he heard the shots. You responded saying, "I take it then that you believe Baker was honest in his WC testimony? That he actually had that encounter with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, as reported in the WCR?" More than once I have detailed through Baker's and others statements that what he said was true. You ignore all that and instead want to hone in on Baker's misjudging Oswald's weight and got the floor number wrong. You offer not evidence that Baker took the time to assess Oswald's weight. He made a guess because he was asked to describe the man he had met in the lunchroom during his very brief encounter. To overlook the time element involved and Baker's state of mind as he was frantically trying to work his way to the roof of the Depository ... he actually did better at guessing Lee's weight than most anyone else could have done from memory. And who really gives a hoot if get got the floor number wrong considering the previous reasons I just gave and knowing he was not familiar with the layout of the building. I must say that your trying to make something out of that is just asinine in light of the fact Baker said the event happened in the lunchroom. As far as I know the TSBD had only one lunchroom and with Truly right there to confirm the encounter and location - Baker could have screwed up and thought for what ever reason it was the 5th floor because all a rational competent investigator needed to do to know which floor it was where the encounter took place would be to inquire as to what floor the lunch-room was on in the building. If Baker wanted to mislead anyone, then he would not have mentioned him meeting the man in the lunchroom and this is why I called your position as weak as a newborn's hand-shake. You come across as having started with a conclusion and are sifting pepper out of scat in an effort to convince yourself Baker was not reliable. Your response is a perfect example of someone over reaching due to their extreme biases. If you would have read carefully ... you would have seen where Patrolman Baker said he saw someone moving through the little window in the door. Next he enters to confront the man and when asked if it was a brown shirt or a coat the man was wearing - Baker couldn't be certain for in those few rushed moments as he was talking to the person he saw going into the lunchroom - he was concentrating on the man's face as he spoke to Lee. I think we can agree that Truly darn sure knew what Lee Oswald looked like. If it is your modus-operandi to just go around claiming everyone independently lied because what they said doesn't sit well with you, then that is a personal problem and certainly not one I care to try to fix.

I find your evaluation to be about as weak as a newborn's handshake. The physical description of Oswald could fit him quite easily. As far as the clothing ... I will leave that up for those who wish to read what Baker said. The read lettering makes the event easy to follow .... hope you find it useful. Unless Officer Baker had been familiar with the layout of the Depository building - which obviously did not ... I have no problem with him misstating which floor he was on when he encountered Oswald on 11/22/63. He was so unfamiliar with the layout of the building that Truly had to guide him where to go so to get to the top floor. The important thing is he describes the door with a window in it that led to the lunchroom and that dictates where the meeting took place. And if that still leaves one wondering where the encounter took place - there is Truly to clarify the location. And by the way, there was no such door and/or lunchroom on the third or fourth floor. Mr. BELIN - What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building? Mr. BAKER - As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby. Mr. BELIN - All right. Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type. As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door. Mr. BAKER - We finally backed up and got through that little swinging door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him. Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what did you do? Mr. BAKER - And he was trying to get that service elevator down there. Mr. BELIN - All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do? Mr. BAKER - He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down. Mr. BELIN - Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button? Mr. BAKER - No, sir; it didn't. Mr. BELIN - Then what did he do? Mr. BAKER - He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here." Mr. BELIN - How many times did he holler, to the best of your recollection? Mr. BAKER - It seemed like he did it twice. Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what did he do? Mr. BAKER - I said let's take the stairs. Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what did you do? Mr. BAKER - He said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this elevator. Mr. BELIN - All right. Mr. BAKER - And we went up them. Mr. BELIN - When you started up the stairs what was your intention at that-- Mr. BAKER - My intention was to go all the way to the top where I thought the shots had come from, to see if I could find something there, you know, to indicate that. Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there. Mr. DULLES - Where was he coming from, do you know? Mr. BAKER - No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me. Mr. BELIN - What did you do then? Mr. BAKER - I ran on over there Representative BOGGS -You mean where he was? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom. Representative BOGGS -Right. What did you say to him? Mr. BAKER - I didn't get anything out of him. Mr. Truly had come up to my side here, and I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this man, does he work here?" And he said yes, and I turned immediately and went on out up the stairs. Representative BOGGS -When you saw him, was he out of breath, did he appear to have been running or what? Mr. BAKER - It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know. Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom. Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; it does. Mr. BELIN - Is this the door through which you glanced as you came around the stairs coming up from the first floor? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up to the third floor? Mr. BAKER - As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around---- Mr. DULLES - Gone on around and up? Mr. BAKER - He had already started around the bend to come to the next elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me. Mr. BAKER - At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway. Mr. BELIN - What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know? Mr. BAKER - I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not. Mr. DULLES - Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn't quite hear. Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket. Mr. BELIN - Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one? Mr. BAKER - Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on. Mr. BELIN - Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station? Mr. BAKER - He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out. Mr. BELIN - Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building? Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say. Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 501? (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 501 for identification.) Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it. Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there? Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing. Mr. BELIN. What did you see? Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24. Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom. Mr. TRULY. That is right. Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23. Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open? Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember. Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember? Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed. Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it? Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way. Mr. BELIN. What did you see? Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him? Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door. Mr. TRULY. This picture is part of the lunchroom. And I would say the camera must be facing northeast. Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 502? Mr. TRULY. This is the lunchroom looking west. Northwest, I would say. Mr. BELIN. Is this door clear to the left of the picture, the door in which you saw Officer Baker standing when he was talking to Lee Harvey Oswald? Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Yes because like I have repeatedly said - that meeting would have been helpful to anyone defending Oswald as a suspect. Then there is Truly coming back down to where Lee and Baker was and letting Baker know that Lee was an employee.

I don't trust the Warren Commission because as an Investigator of more than a quarter of a century on this case I was able to see how the Commission did their questioning which was many times all over the place in my view, thus making it hard to follow what the witness's testimony was trying to convey. I do however trust the witnesses in question, especially when several of them reported seeing the same event around the same time. And while I understand that several people can see the same occurrence take place and from each persons recollection can come some independent variances in their collective recollections, I understand how that can be expected. However, I do not believe the witnesses concerning Patrolman Baker conspired to mislead anyone. What I do believe is there are some people who start with the theory that everything is a fabrication, which at times allows their bias to interfere with rationally evaluating the evidence. I think some are so effected in this way that they could walk over a fresh fallen snow and look back seeing what is obviously the footsteps they have just made and somehow automatically think someone must be following them! No better example of is the going on right now when someone basically says they only trust those that aren't necessary for the official story. The witnesses who were there are part of the official story. The same goes for the cameras that recorded the events as they unfolded are also part of the official story. So when several witnesses report an event independent of one another that is also supported by several cameras, then the basics that the witnesses have relayed pertaining to their own observations is for the most part sincere with possibly of the exception how each person perceived it based on their memory. Just last night I viewed a slowed down version of the combined Couch and Darnell films showing Officer Baker's run and I saw that the camera actually picks him up on the grass between the three lane Elm Street and the extension that runs within several feet of the TSBD building. Shelly and Lovelady referred to as the "Island". Up until I then I assumed Baker left his motorcycle and ran straight for the TSBD even though he had mentioned pausing to see down Elm Street in the direction of the knoll. And as I told Prudomme, Baker and Truly's entering the TSBD and immediately starting their search that led to Baker's seeing Lee in the lunchroom was a benefit to Oswald - not to the official version. From a defense lawyer's standpoint - this would be seen as a plus for LOH. Someone with a sole need to contradict the official version at all cost might miss this altogether. I hope that my explaining my view has given you pause to think.