Bill Miller

Shelley's initial descriptions of the events and its timing falls within the time frame of the first 30 seconds. The final statement of Shelley about the timing of when he saw Truly and Baker about to enter the building mirrored the previous timing of the event. The one misstatement between those Commission responses does not. Not difficult at all for me to understand.

You have been given examples of my position. Here is one such example from one of my previous resonses: " I believe there was evidence that some agents within the FBI purposely misstated a witness. Julia Ann Mercer saying she recognized the man driving the truck below the knoll as being Jack Ruby would be one such example." Now if you are unsure if I think that purposely misstating what a witness said in a official report involving a murder investigation is legal or not - the answer is it would be illegal, and I would not think anyone taking on the Kennedy Assassination would think otherwise.

You have an amazing way of not seeing the forest for the trees so-to-speak. I thought I was pretty clear that if Shelley was coached to say that he didn't see Baker and Truly enter the building after he had been to the RR yard and was returning to the TSBD - all three to four minutes later, then why was he allowed to say several times prior and once after that in the same interview that these things happened as soon as he crossed the street and well before ever going to the RR yard? That is the part that goes beyond reason in my book and would be irresponsible for me as an investigator not to mention it. I have never heard of someone being coached to say something one time in an interview that he had previously said just the opposite of in the same interview twice before and once more before the interview has ended, I am more inclined to believe that Shelley made a the one mistake and didn't even catch it before thinking he made the same mistake over and over and the one time he gave a different time frame was the correct one. I would however be curious as to whether you would not agree with me if the same reasoning was pointed out on a similar matter unrelated to the assassination.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Bill Shelley was coached into saying the shots sounded like they came not from the alleged snipers nest, but rather from a location west of the building. 11/22/63 affidavit of Shelley as to where the shots came from - "I heard what sounded like three shots. I could not tell from where they were coming from" Did the WC coach Shelley to then say the shots came from the west - "Sounded like it came from the west" Then BIll Shelley was coached to say that the very next thing that happened was to have Gloria Calvery come running up to he and Lovelady. Did the WC coach Shelley as to what happened next - "Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute." Did the WC coach Bill Shelley where on the Island did they go after meeting Calvery and if it was straight across the street - "Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?" - "There's concrete between the two streets" - "Yes, where they split." Did the WC coach Bill Shelley to say the following - Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island. Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. That would be the Island where Shelley had said, "old island and we stopped there for a minute" So yes, I believe there was some confusion at that point of the questioning as to when they met Calvery and estimating seeing Truly and Officer Baker enter the building after three to four minutes as it is in total conflict with the several things he had just said about the timing of those events. That they saw Calvery just prior to reaching the Island off to the right near the concrete. That they heard a noise and turned to look back and see Baker and Truly enter the building. That they remained at that place on the Island for around a minute before walking on to the RR yard where they went as far as the tracks. That they spent about 1.5 to 2 minutes there and returned to the TSBD while taking there sweet time walking back. All totaling about 3 to 4 minutes. Nothing in that exchange makes it look as though Shelley had been coaxed in my view. That had Bill Shelley had been coaxed that he would have not said any of those things in the order he gave them. There was only the one place where the reference was made that the meeting Calvery and then seeing Truly and Baker about to enter the building was around 3 to 4 minutes following the shooting. And after that disjointed exchange took place ... the following was testified to which further demonstrates the confusion that took place concerning the 3 to 4 minute estimate - Bill Shelley again said to Mr Ball what he said early on in his testimony about his seeing Truly and Officer Baker entering the building as Ball asked again what did they then do - Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building? MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in. Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes. Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do? Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end. That is my opinion as an investigator and having spoken to countless witnesses over the years. Shelley, nor Ball was even aware of the error in saying those observations were made after 3 to 4 minutes because it went right over their head when Shelley followed that moment by repeating what he said about seeing Truly and Baker before ever going to the RR Yard. I have not taken the time to share this everyone so to burst anyone's bubble, but to offer an opinion for others to consider.

No book - no video - no invested interest. As far as fooling "us" .... I think some folks are doing that well enough on their own.

Shelley corrected Mr. Ball by remarking that they didn't walk straight across the street, but more to the right. Hardly a contradiction as much as it is being more specific. This Island was the grassy area starting near the street corner that extended behind the pergola. The meeting with Calvery took place near the yellow cab. The grass around the tree has been removed since the assassination. The reason for this was to keep people from wearing the ground away and exposing the roots of the tree. It was near there that Shelley and Lovelady entered the Island/ Divider.

That is just it - you keep ignoring the order of the events that Shelley gave and replacing it with the latter 3 - 4 minute remark which was related to the tour time. In my view that is just another 'the Weigman's on the ground' error. But then again I do not have an investment in the outcome.

Your version seems a little twisted in my view. I don't think you purposely told a falsehood, but rather just simply erred about what was said. I believe that when they looked back from the Island - Baker and Truly were seen at the top of the steps and going into the building. Both Shelley and Lovelady are no longer visible on Darnell's film and Darnell didn't film the Officer ascending the the steps. Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island. Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building? Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

Like the saying goes "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I think some folks see everything as a lie while others see it as an error. For instance, I didn't say you lied in your video about the Wiegman family being seen laying on the ground following the shooting - I said it was a misstatement, did I not. Which Bill Shelley told the truth - is it the Bill Shelley who said the shots sounded like they came from the west which goes against Oswald shooting from the 6th floor and met Calvery before heading across the street ............ Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud. Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then? Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute. Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:? Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west. Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Then what happened? Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute. Then Shelley said this occurred after his meeting with Calvery: Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way. Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island. Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Now pay attention to the next questions and answers as this is where the confusion started as I am certain that Shelley didn't mean to imply that after hearing Calvery say the President was shot that Bill Shelley was going to stay there and watch the rest of the parade. Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit. Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. There is no doubt that there wasn't much of a meeting of the minds in those last six exchanges. And again Shelley said the meeting with Calvery took place before making it to the Island/Divider. Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider. Mr. BALL - Between the two Elm Streets? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out? MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there. Mr. BALL - Did you stay very long? Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, it wasn't very long. Mr. BALL - How long? Mr. SHELLEY - Maybe a minute or two. Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh, Mr. BALL - Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. And lastly ..... Mr. BALL - Did you stay there any length of time? Mr. SHELLEY - Not very long. Mr. BALL - How long would you say? Mr. SHELLEY - I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half. Mr. BALL - Then you went back to the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you trot or run back to the building? Mr. SHELLEY - We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or less. Mr. BALL - Then you went into the west end? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. If one does the math - it becomes clear that the entire trip from the TSBD to the RR tracks - and back to the TSBD took about 3 minutes or so. That the themse was always that the meeting with Calvery came before touring the Plaza. That because of the poor questioning being given by the Commission that the meeting with Calvery or seeing Truly and Baker enter the building was born in my view.

And that would bother me how?

I thought you were another one that believed the powers that be got to the witnesses .... seems if you truly believe that, then the first day statement would be the accurate one which seems to support the Darnell film.

The fact that the dark complected woman was with two other woman demonstrates that these friends that went out to the street together did not necessarily stand arm and arm. In fact, as the Bronson Photo shows - there was plenty of spacing between the Elm Street witnesses for about anyone to walk down to the curb and get in between any of them. I am also surprised that you care at all what was written in the FBI statements because I thought you were one of those people who has held the position that any statements taken by the FBI were not to be accepted as accurate.

Exposure was enough punishment.

Who said the ladies all stood shoulder to shoulder in their respective group? Better yet, which lady of the possible ladies along the street is wearing a form fitting black shirt and light top besides woman "K"? The woman seen in the newspaper with second lady has high setting wide hips as does woman "K". I have seen lots of ladies who were thin from back to front while having the type of somewhat broad hips as seen on Calvery. And about that wedding photo of Gloria ... the type of outfit she has on has a lot to do with how she looks. Its often referred to as a dress suit. If you compare her size to that of her thin looking husband - she looks to have less girth than he. The running woman is only seen in profile and with a partial view from behind in Zapruder's film. Thin from the side view - high curvy hips from the front and rear.

So this was just a 'filler' response? Prudhomme: "I'm sorry but, I must have missed that memo. Would you mind terribly explaining how you reconciled their first day statements with their WC testimonies again?"

just go back a few pages and you will find it in probably more than one post

I have been quite clear about my position and cannot see how to make it any simpler to follow without possibly resorting to the use of sock puppets. Misstating a witness's remark is one thing and can be dealt with a lot easier than blatantly conspiring to enter false evidence into a murder investigation involving the death of a U.S. President. The prior may not look good, but it won't get you hung like the latter would. As far as your not nailing down my position - that is rubbish in my view. Your problem has been in trying to get me to alter my position to fit what you would want it to be. And again it has nothing to do with the theory that the 'powers that be' prevented anyone from saying that Lee Oswald was outside with them.

The engaging in conversation from what was reported to have been said would have taken less than a few seconds. So let me ask you a question .... Whether Gloria met Lovelady and Shelley while they still had their feet on the steps or had merely just started walking away from the steps ... tell me what difference would that point make in the grand scheme of things that would make that a deliberate sinister point concerning the event in question when we have it on film. You keep alluding to it as if these two men entered into some plot to deceive someone over the timing of when Gloria came running up to them. What would be the possible motive for that meeting being moved just a few seconds either way? I cannot see without there being something to gain from it that anyone would see the exact moment of meeting Calvery anything other than an innocent timing recollection. Hopefully you can enlighten me and others by explaining yourself. Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot. Mr. BALL - Who was this girl? Mr. LOVELADY - Gloria Calvary. Mr. BALL - Gloria Calvary? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Where does she work? Mr. LOVELADY - Southwestern Publishing Co. Mr. BALL - Where was the direction of the sound? Mr. LOVELADY - Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll. Mr. BALL - That's where it sounded to you? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area. Mr. BALL - From the underpass area? Mr. LOVELADY - Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll. Mr. BALL - I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are. Mr. LOVELADY - Where I thought the shots are? Mr. BALL - No; you in the picture. Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, here (indicating). Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken? Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating). Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step? Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level. Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley? Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah. Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building. Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with. Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley. Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes--- Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there? Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running. Mr. BALL - That's all? Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin. Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there? Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess--- Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way? Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction. Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building? Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building. Mr. BALL - How many steps? Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25. Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks? Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half. Mr. BALL - Then what did you do? Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building. Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did. Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up? Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say. Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time. Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could. Mr. BALL - Had people started to run? Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk? Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk. Mr. BALL - A fast walk? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked. Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door? Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door. Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door? Mr. LOVELADY - That's right. Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it? Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street? Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock. Mr. BALL - I am? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two. Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side. Mr. BALL - Now, the south side--- Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street. Mr. BALL - That's south. Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west. Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors. Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors? Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it. Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman. Mr. BALL - What is her full name? Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know. Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams? Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so. Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw? Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear. Mr. BALL - Where was the girl? Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what. Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in. Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then? Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor. Mr. BALL - Did you take them up there? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; I sure did. Mr. BALL - Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final--- Mr. LOVELADY - I want this to be the final one. Mr. BALL - All right; you waive signature? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Thanks very much.

How many times have we seen claims made that needed to have so many witnesses lying to make a theory seem plausible ... I lost count over the years. You do however seem to hit the nail on the head as to why the second floor room encounter by Officer Baker is so troublesome to the concept that Oswald is Prayer-Man. Buell Frazier was asked to recall who he recognized and remembered being with him before, during, and immediately after the shooting. To both the WC and at the Shaw trial ... Frazier could not say that Lee was out front with him. Buell was even asked when he saw Lee that day and if he ever saw him after the shooting took place to which he replied that he had not see Lee the rest of that day. Buell could talk about how good Lee was with children or how the package Lee brought to work wasn't long enough to be the rifle the WC was wanting to establish, but if he is not willing to say that Lee was standing a couple of feet away from him - then Frazier is part of a plot to conspire to frame Oswald. Perhaps Prayer Man was someone else who Buell didn't particularly know. After all, the lady next to him he described as a heavy set woman named Sarah something. I think Buell only mentioned four or five people who was out front of the building with him, thus he obviously didn't know all of the employees as well as some want to believe he did. Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember? Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.

So either Shelley got it right when he gave the chronological order of these events or he misspoke later on. He, nor Mr. Ball seemed to have caught it. Here once again for your convenience is what Shelley said about the order in which the event unfolded immediately following the shooting ..... Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - What did you hear? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together. (Note: What script was Shelley reading from when he mentioned the pause and the other two shots coming close together ... certainly not the official scripted version as some would call it. Sounds like the same version so many other witnesses heard, including SS Agent Kellerman when he testified the last two shots came very close to one another. When responding to Mr. Ford - Kellerman described the last two shots as being one over the top of the other Kellerman said they sounded like a "plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it." ) Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then? Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute. Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:? Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west. (Note: Shelley doesn't place the sound of the shots as coming from inside the building, but instead to the west of it towards the RR Yard. Hardly appears to be following the official script as some claim he did.) . Mr. BALL - Then what happened? Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute. Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there? Mr. BALL - Yes. Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street. Mr. BALL - It dead ends? Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets. Using a measurement of distance those most people are familiar with ... it is 60feet from home plate to the pitchers mound at a baseball field. It is 90feet from home plate to first base. Shelley and Lovelady could have easily seen their co-worker coming towards them crying and visibly upset to which they left the stairs and started towards her. The Darnell film shows two individuals meeting a running woman at a distance of around 3 car lengths from the stairs leading up to the entrance of the building. I have added a couple of photographs to offer a better snese as to just how close that meeting took place. At the same time - both men would be correct to say they had not yet left the front of the TSBD. But even if they had not been clear or left out that they started towards her - it would not take away from the timing of their meeting with co-worker Gloria Calvery. If it is truly Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady seen in the Darnell film (which seems probable), then the response given later in Shelley's testimony of it being three to four minutes having passed before encountering Gloria is simply a misstatement rather than some smoking gun. Three to four minutes was the total estimate of how long the two men were out in the Plaza before returning to the building. The notion that this was a slip-up from a script hardly by an actor seems rather absurd to me when Shelley had said several things that was in conflict with the official version of Lee being the assassin.

That was already explained with a detailed breakdown of their statements and how they played out with the Darnell film.

I have cited bother their testimonies and explained how they related to the Darnell film. I certainly didn't skim over anything if you read my responses. That alone should have been a clue that I was aware of what they had said.

Shelley had just told the order of events and how he and Lovelady saw Calvery running towards them - that they crossed over to the divider - that when they looked back that they saw Truly and Baker at the top step on their way into the building - and how they remained on the divider for about a minute before walking on towards the RR Yard. One might conclude from the timeline Shelley gave for he and Lovelady returning to the building three minutes later that Shelley simply misspoke about seeing Calvery minutes later following the shooting.

Frazier was asked who did he recall being out on the steps as he waited for the parade to arrive. He said he had been out there since 12:00pm and remained there until the President' passed by. He even mentioned seeing Shelley and Lovelady heading across the Elm Street extension. Mr. BALL - What time did you knock off for lunch? Mr. FRAZIER - 12. Mr. BALL - Did you eat your lunch? Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by. Mr. BALL - You went out there after you quit work? Mr. FRAZIER - Right, for lunch. Mr. BALL - About 12 o'clock? Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Mr. BALL - Who did you go out there with? Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all. Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there. Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember? Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name. Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there. Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail. Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here. Mr. BALL - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you stayed there? Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I stood there until the parade come by. Mr. BALL - Did you see the President go by? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did. Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound? Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't. Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you? Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was. Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there? Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place? Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all. Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building? Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it. Mr. BALL - Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking him home? Mr. FRAZIER - No; I didn't, sir. Mr. BALL - Was there some reason why you didn't? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already dismissed him and he went on home. At the Shaw trial: Q: Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald during that time that you were on the steps in front of the Texas School Book Depository? A: No, sir, I did not. Q: Did you go back into the building after the presidential motorcade went under the triple underpass? Did you go back into the Texas School Book Depository? A: After the shots were fired? Q: Right. Q: Yes. I stayed there at first and talked to several of the people who worked there in the building. Then some of them started going back inside so I went back inside with some of the others. Q: Prior to you going back inside, did you see where any of the crowd that was viewing the presidential motorcade may have gone at the time the shots were fired? A: Quite a few people ran down, like I stated, in the direction of the triple underpass. Q: Did you see any policemen there? A: At the triple underpass, yes, sir, there were some just like regular policemen. At that time, when I said previously people were running and screaming and hollering, some were running in that direction towards where the President's motorcade was. Q: After going back into the Texas School Book Depository Building did you have occasion to see Lee Harvey Oswald? A: No, sir, I did not.