Denis Pointing

Here is a summary of Tatum's testimony from McAdams site

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscalojt.htm

Does anyone have the complete transcript of Tatum's HSCA interview?

This Ray:

BAYLOR UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER

Wednesday, Feb. 1st, 1978.

OFFICE OF PHOTO DEPARTMENT OF HOBIEZELLE HOSPITAL

3500 GASTON AVE, DALLAS, TEXAS.

Investigators Jack Moriarty and Joe Basteri, menders of the Select Committee on Assassinations, U.S. House of Representatives, Washington., D.C. are in the office of the Director of Photography of the hospital mentioned above, and Mr. JACK RAY TATUM, The Director, has been interviewed with regard to his first hand knowledge, of the Fatal shooting of Officer J.D. Tippit, here in Dallas, Friday, November 22nd, 1963.

Mr. Tatum will reiterate his statement to be reduced to typewritten form

(By Moriarty) "Mr. Tatum, if you'll repeat your statement slowly, I'll attempt to type it."

Although I did not remember the exact time I remember it was early in the afternoon on Friday, November 22, 1963. I was driving XXXX north on Denver and stopped at 10th St. when I first saw the squad car and men walking on the sidewalk near the squad car. Both the squad car and this young white male were coming in my direction(East on 10th Street). At the time I was just approaching the squad car, I noticed this young white male with both hands in the pockets of his zippered jacket leaning over the passenger side of the squad car. This young white male was looking into the squad car from the passenger side. The next thing I knew I heard something that sounded like gun shots as I approached the intersection. (10th & Patton). I heard three shots in rapid (illegible)I went right through the intersection, stopped my car and turned to look back. I then saw the officer lying on the street and saw this young white man standing near the front of the squad car. Next. this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street. At that point this young man looked around him and then started to walk away in my direction and as he started to break into a small run in my direction, I sped off in my auto. All I saw him to the intersection and run south on Patton towards Jefferson.

Q. Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald, Officer Tippit or anyone else at the scene.

A. No

Q Did you not report this information to the authorities?

A. There were more than enough people there and I could not see what I could contribute.

Q. Is there anything you wish to add to your statement?

A. At this time I can't think or anything.

Jack Moriarty Joe Basteri Jack R. Tatum

Feb, 1 1978

Perhaps I am missing something. Was all the Tippit evidence analysed and publically announced before the death of LHO? I am sure you can see that the death of the accused changed things considerably. Many of the lineups were related to the Tippit killing, do you think they would have stood up in court? Same reasoning.

Neville, I very much doubt if the physical evidence was analysed and publicly announced before the death of LHO because of the time frame. But that doesn't alter the content of the physical evidence one iota. And no, I cant see that the death of the accused changed things considerably as far as the physical evidence IE the shells are concerned. Do you really not think if there was any planting going on the police wouldn't have planted bullets that actually matched Oswald's gun?

And yes, I do think many, if not all, of the lineups would have stood up in court. But that's just IMO and as such isn't worth a light. I prefer facts and the facts show that the physical evidence re the Tippit murder IE the shells found by the Davies is solid and would have been admissible in court. This alone would have been enough to convict Oswald even without witnesses, remember Oswald was found a short distance away WITH the murder weapon. And attempted to kill yet another police officer with it!!

OK.......the planting in this case could have occurred after the death of the accused. Not quite the same focus on procedure when there will be no "trial of the century".

But Neville, all the physical evidence concerning Tippit was found/collected long before Oswald was killed. This thread is about the Tippit murder and that evidence, not the JFK assassination in general.

I think that because the "world was watching" was a large part of the motivation. How do you explain the flawed lineups? These occurred on day 1. The reporting to the press of the parrafin tests were highly predudicial and inaccurate. Why no stenographer present in the interviews. No legal representation. The motivation for Dallas police to catch the killer of the president was extreme.

I really cant argue with any of the above...I agree with you Neville, except for the planting of evidence regarding Tippit.

Neville, you raise some real good points and I dont doubt that there was indeed a cover up, ordered by LBJ to ensure a "lone nut" verdict by the WC. But the planting of evidence by police, or anyone else, is always a very risky business and is often counter productive. Especially risky when its the crime of the century and the eyes of the world are watching. This was the most public and televised murder case in history. Personally, I'M not convinced there was any planting of evidence re the Tippit murder, not because I belive "all policeman are wonderful" but because of the above. Now, as for the investigators being VERY selective concerning witnesses and possibly altering testimony....arh,now that's another matter. Denis.

I must say it makes me a bit queasy to hear of anyone not a diehard LNT posting at the McAdams site. There are so many pages of sheer disinfo that it does not make for the best company, even though it does get a high google rating.

Pam, Dankbaar didn't say Duke posted at McAdams, only that his article is posted there. The ED forum is listed there as well. Denis.

If the article is posted there, Duke must have given it to McAdams. If so, it would seem McAdams would have been showing his oh-so-helpful side to Duke to get him to do so. I think of Duke's articles in a much higher light than I do anything McAdams has at his site.

Pam, why must Duke "have given it to McAdams"? Copyright © 1992 by M. Duke Lane

[This text may be reproduced in any form provided only that it is not sold or

published in any fee- or subscription-based publication.]

I really dont think there is any reason to doubt Duke's loyalties here. Its just Dankbaar besmirching yet another good researcher who dares to disagree with him. By the way, SOME of the article's at McAdams are good stuff...dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. Denis.

In this discussion of shells as evidence it is worth remembering that the Davis sisters only found their shells some hours after the shooting. I have seen that the Tippit scene some minutes after the shooting had a large number of people congregated. Not a very secure crime scene.

Hi Neville, so long as the shells were proven to have come from Oswald's gun, which they were to the exclusion of any other gun, I really cant see a problem. Don't forget that at this time no one knew it would latter prove impossible to positively match the actuall bullets with the weapon. So a plant, if that's what your suggesting, would seem highly unlikely. A couple of "researchers" have claimed the Davies girls were "in on it" but that is plainly ridiculous.

I certainly agree its worth taking a closer look at Benavides, I've been searching all over since reading your post and your right, there doesn't seem to be any mention of a stranded car anywhere else other than Benavides's testimony. Denis.

I must say it makes me a bit queasy to hear of anyone not a diehard LNT posting at the McAdams site. There are so many pages of sheer disinfo that it does not make for the best company, even though it does get a high google rating.

Pam, Dankbaar didn't say Duke posted at McAdams, only that his article is posted there. The ED forum is listed there as well. Denis.

They were? When? By what instrument? In the testimony he didn't give? In the affidavit he didn't make? Who was the police officer who got them from the Davises? Whom did he give them to, and to whom?

Testimony such as this perhaps? Its there to be found if you look Duke.

Wait. Let me get this straight: you make the statement that "the chain of evidence is solid," and I'm supposed to gather the data to support your claim? I don't think so!

I'm not asking you to gather data for me, I'm pointing out that testimony you said didn't exist does exist. Anyway, forget semantics and move on.

Read this below from: "Evidence for the Law Enforcement Officer" by Gilbert B. Stuckey. Pay particular attention to#3. If there had been a trial those shells would have been admissible as they were marked by both Brown and Dhority. Case closed?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IDENTIFICATION OF OBJECT AS ONE FOUND

Although the connection of an object with a crime scene or as a part of the transaction at hand is seldom difficult, the presentation of proof that a particular article offered in evidence is the one found by the officer sometimes becomes complicated. Also it is often equally difficult to prove that the object examined or analyzed has not been changed, tampered with, or contaminated between the time of its discovery and the analysis. When these things cannot be proved the object will in most instances be excluded from evidence. It behooves the officer therefore to be fully cognizant of the procedures which may be followed in order that the necessary proof may be presented, and the value of the physical evidence not be lost forever.

There are three procedures which may be followed by the officer that will enable him to positively identify an object as the one he found, and to establish that it has a relation to the case at hand:

1. He may keep the object in his complete and exclusive custody and control from the time it was found until it is presented in court.

2. He may maintain a complete and accurate record of the chain of possession.

3. He may mark the object in some distinctive manner which will enable him to recognize it at a later time.

]

Was Healy the shooter on the sixth floor then?

[quote

I hate to upset Wild Bill, perhaps even you but I was in Saigon (actually US Element MAAG Headquarters, Cholon, Saigon's then sister city) on-duty, when JFK was murdered....

Dont be too hasty now Healy...I think Dankbaar's getting ready to offer you a book deal!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

LATEST NEWS

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Dankbaar makes hasty retreat after losing shirt to Gary Mack!!

They were? When? By what instrument? In the testimony he didn't give? In the affidavit he didn't make? Who was the police officer who got them from the Davises? Whom did he give them to, and to whom?

Testimony such as this perhaps? Its there to be found if you look Duke.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. BROWN. Yes. In regard to the Officer Tippit murder, the same date,

November 22, 1963, Lt. T. I’. Wells received a telephone call from a Mrs. Barbara

Davis of 499 East 10th stating that her sister-in-law of the same address, her

name as Mrs. Virginia Davis, had found an additional empty .38 caliber shell

cartridge in her front yard.

Lieutenant Wells ordered my partner, C. N. Dhority, and I, to go to the

Davis residence w-here Mrs. Barbara Davis handed my partner this spent hull

at, approximately 7 p.m., that evening. That was brought to the homicide and

robbery bureau by myself and Detective Dhority.

Mr. BELIN. Was it brought to that bureau at the time you brought the two

women?

Mr. BROWN. At the same time the Davis women were brought to the office

for affidavits and identification.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you turn that cartridge shell over to?

Mr. BROWN. That went to the crime lab, Dallas Crime Lab.

250

Mr. BELIN. Did you, yourself, turn it over?

Mr. BROWN. No ; Detective Dhority handled that.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Dhority handled that?

Mr. BROWN. We were keeping this evidence in a chain there. Mrs. Barbara

Jeanette Davis handed him the spent cartridge. He gave it to the crime lab

himself, which was initialled by both of us.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else, sir?

Mr. BROWN. None in regard to any evidence or identification of any further

witnesses.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with either the assassination or the

Tippit murder?

Mr. BROWN. None that I recall at this time, sir.

Mr. BELIH. Sir, you have an opportunity to either read the deposition when

it is transcribed and sign it, or else waive the reading and have our court

reporter send it directly to Washington. You can take your choice.

Mr. BROWN. Well, I have no reason to read it for any reason at all.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive signing it then?

Mr. BROWN. That would be fine. Waive signing, and you can send it right

out. To the best of my knowledge, that is everything that happened.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate all of your cooperation and the

cooperation of the Dallas Police Department.

TESTIMONY OF L. C. GRAVES

Testimony of L. C. Graves was taken at 3 :lO p.m., on April 6,X%4, in the office

of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Erv

Mr. Ball. Did you make a mark?

Mr. Poe. I can't swear to it; no, sir.

QUOTE: Did you miss that when you copied the testimony? He could not swear to even having put a mark on them at all! That's not an implication, that's a statement, under oath, by an honest cop!UNQUOTE

No Duke, I didn't miss it but it would appeared you did.

QUOTE: Officer Poe was faced with a conundrum: he recalled having marked the shells, but the evidence before him was that he hadn't.UNQUOTE

As for the other two shells, well Duke its not really too difficult now is it? The Davis girls found the shells, handed them to a police officer, they were marked by Captain G.M.Doughty, placed in a filing cabinet, retrieved by an FBI agent and the ID marks positively identified by Captain Doughty.

Of course, if your of the mindset that anything that makes Oswald appear guilty even as so much as jaywalking was either: planted, fabricated, substituted, forged or altered, then yes, it is impossible to know anything. By the way what exactly does the remark "It seems clear where behind the bar you're seated, and it's not on the bench making impartial rulings." meant to mean? If you have something to say then say it.

Dennis,

What happened to the cigarette pack?

Weren't the shells placed in a cigarette pack before being given to cops?

And on what basis can it be concluded that Poe was an honest cop?

Not that I know different, or that he isn't an honest cop, it's just that there are so many cops and so many motives, and I'd like to get to know Officer Poe a little more before I would clear him of missremembering what was probably the most important fifteen minutes of his life.

And if Ball did cut off his testimony, then that makes me even more suspicious.

BK

Bill, the Winston cigarette box contained the Poe shells, the above post is really about the two other shells which the Davies girls found which, as far as I know, were not placed in a box.. I have no idea what happened to the cig box, perhaps it was handed over to the crime lab along with the shells. Is it importaint?

It was actually Duke that said Poe was an honest cop, I was merely quoting him. But I think its fairly safe to presume he was , after all he could have just said the shells shown to him by Ball were definitely the ones found at the crime scene and that would have been the end of it. Its the officers honesty which causes the ambiguity.

If you go back to my post #18 the link now seems to be working again (if not just type it in rather than "click") and you can read the whole interview, Ball doesn't just cut off at that sentence. Denis.

Through my good graces and Silicon Valley contacts I told Wild Bill I'd get him a job reference to ADOBE Software, Photoshop specific (I know the CEO),

Hmm, just wondering how your "Silicon Valley contacts" would react if they ever looked at that link! Better pray Bill doesn't send em one. LOL

I knew a xxxxx like you would be sniffing around this thread. And son, I retired from a wonderful career a few years back.... say, do you do film-video compositing, xxxxx? If you do we have something to talk about, otherwise go carry Miller's waterpail! Hi Kathy.....

No , but I know of a guy who does...you know him too Healy, I understand you used to "communicate at a professional level". LOL Lets see what he has to say:

“There is no detectable

evidence of manipulation or image alteration on the "Zapruder in-cameraoriginal"

and all supporting evidence precludes any forgery thereto.”

The film that exists at NARA was received from Time/Life, has all

the characteristics of an original film per my report. !The film medium,

manufacturing markings, processing identification, camera gate image

characteristics, dye structure, full scale tonal range, support type,

perforations and their quality, keeping shrinkage and fluting

characteristics, feel, surface profile of the dye surface. !It has NO

evidence of optical effects or matte work including granularity, edge

effects or fringing, contrast buildup etc.

Rollie Zavada, 9/23/03

And lets not forget the guys who wrote this: http://home.earthlink.net/~joejd/jfk/zaphoax/healy.html

PS I love the drawn in blood spatter..really professionail.

You really are an ass aren't you Healy. LMFAO

Through my good graces and Silicon Valley contacts I told Wild Bill I'd get him a job reference to ADOBE Software, Photoshop specific (I know the CEO),

Hmm, just wondering how your "Silicon Valley contacts" would react if they ever looked at that link! Better pray Bill doesn't send em one. LOL

Mr. Ball. Did you make a mark?

Mr. Poe. I can't swear to it; no, sir.

QUOTE: Did you miss that when you copied the testimony? He could not swear to even having put a mark on them at all! That's not an implication, that's a statement, under oath, by an honest cop!UNQUOTE

No Duke, I didn't miss it but it would appeared you did.

QUOTE: Officer Poe was faced with a conundrum: he recalled having marked the shells, but the evidence before him was that he hadn't.UNQUOTE

As for the other two shells, well Duke its not really too difficult now is it? The Davis girls found the shells, handed them to a police officer, they were marked by Captain G.M.Doughty, placed in a filing cabinet, retrieved by an FBI agent and the ID marks positively identified by Captain Doughty.

Of course, if your of the mindset that anything that makes Oswald appear guilty even as so much as jaywalking was either: planted, fabricated, substituted, forged or altered, then yes, it is impossible to know anything. By the way what exactly does the remark "It seems clear where behind the bar you're seated, and it's not on the bench making impartial rulings." meant to mean? If you have something to say then say it.

Let's see.

I kinda think that you posted the above because:

1. It's free Ad space.

2. You are overjoyed because you got another comment.

Kathy

Yes Kathy, I think you've hit the nail on the head, this whole thread was started for no better reason than to get Dankbaar some cheap publicity. The guy posts here insulting and besmirching serious researchers acting so self-righteous and noble. Whilst we all know the only real interest Dankbaar has in the case is to make money. The mans a bloody vulture. He must think were all idiots here. He and that Pamela Ray woman should hook up....they would make the perfect couple.

I apologize Jack if it seemed I was besmirching the research of your deceased friend. But with respect, whether it be Larry Harris's or (particularly) Armstrong's research I find it difficult to ignore the testimony of people who were actually at the murder scene and directly involved. Plus all the ballistic evidence regarding the Tippit slaying. Denis.

Officer Poe was faced with a conundrum: he recalled having marked the shells, but the evidence before him was that he hadn't. Either his memory or training had failed him, or the shells were not the same as those he'd taken. It is much simpler to believe that he'd not marked the shells than it is to prove they'd been substituted.

or:

Mr Ball

Now, I have here a package which has been marked "Q"--FBI lab. Q-74 to Q-77. Would you look those over and see if there is any identification on there by you to indicate that those were the hulls given to you by Benavides?

Mr. Poe.

I want to say these two are mine, but I couldn't swear to it.

Mr. Ball.

Did you make a mark?

Mr. Poe.

I can't swear to it; no, sir.

Mr. Ball.

But there is a mark on two of these?

Mr. Poe.

There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I couldn't swear to it. I couldn't make them out any more. Mr. Ball.

Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are you think it is 'these two? Q-77 and Q-75?

Mr. Poe.

Yes, sir; those two there.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which would imply that by this time the shells had so many identifying scratches on them from others at the DPD, that he could not tell whether his mark was present or not.

There was also two other shells found at the scene. The chain of evidence for these is solid.

The late Larry Ray Harris was THE expert researcher on Tippit. I choose to believe

Larry instead of Myers, Posner, or the Warrenatti.

Here is one of Larry's Tippit articles:

>>>>>>

"In the final analysis, the four shell casings are the only tangible evidence linking Oswald's pistol to the Tippit murder; without question, they were fired in his .38 Smith & Wesson."

"Patrolman Poe was instructed by Sgt. Hill at the scene to 'mark' two shells found by Domingo Benavides;" [unquote

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well Jack there's certainly a great deal that could be, and indeed has been, contested in Harris's article. But just to stick with the revolver and shell casings for now, you said earlier that there was no proof Oswald owned a gun, well it seems Larry Harris, who in your opinion was "THE expert researcher on Tippit" and the researcher you "choose to believe" didn't agree. The top quote from Harris makes it quite clear that he accepted Oswald DID own a gun and that the casings came from them.

Also the second quote from Harris, re Sgt. Hill instructing Poe to mark the shells would seem doubtful, see below.

----------------------------------------------------------------

"Others at the Dallas Police Department flatly deny that Poe marked the hulls at all. Retired homicide detective Jim Leavelle says, "Some officers think they are doing the right thing and get in over their heads. But I talked to Poe. He said he didn't remember marking [the cartridges]. But that is something we didn't do back then. I didn't do it. [He] didn't do it. And I didn't ask [him] to do it. When I was out there and Poe offered the shells to me I said, 'No, just go ahead and put them in the envelope and send them on to the crime lab and let them work with them from there.' My intention was simply to cut down on the [number of officers involved in the] chain of evidence."(41)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Former Dallas crime lab Lieutenant J. Carl Day confirms that in 1963, the Dallas police had no consistent policy regarding the marking of evidence."(42)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

William Kelly Posted Today, 11:54 AM

Antti, why do you have "Clay Shaw trial testimony" there?

If you follow the link, is that the entire testimony?

Ball only questons him for two minutes and cuts it off abruptly?

BK

Bill,

I was hoping to add to the post of Dennis' (copy below), since I didn't see this section in the links he had provided. I quoted a section of the questioning of Officer Poe from the WC not the Shaw trial as I stated earlier mistakenly. Thanks.

Antti

Denis Pointing Posted Today, 02:53 AM

Can you give me a link to that testimony please Jack, re Poe marking the shells, the two pieces of testimony I have (see links) say no such thing. Denis.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/21/2195-001.gif

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=78

Thanks Antti, I'm not sure why the links no longer working but that was the relevant section I had intended. Cheers .

Bill, if you type in the second web address rather than "click" on it you can see the compleate interview between Ball and Poe. Its quite a few pages long. Denis.

More baloney from Myers. There is no proof that Oswald was ever at 10th and Patton.

Jack

Really Jack, then how do you explain the fact that the shell casings found at the Tippit murder scene matched Oswald's gun? The bullets were too mangled to positively ID but the casings were positive. A plant by the DPD regarding either the castings or the gun no doubt?

There is "no proof" that Oswald owned a pistol.

Jack

Jack, are saying that the witnesses and police officers at the Texas theater DIDN'T see Oswald pull a revolver? I.E. This one. "When arrested, Oswald had in his possession a Smith and Wesson .38 Special Caliber Revolver". Can you please elaborate?

More baloney from Myers. There is no proof that Oswald was ever at 10th and Patton.

Jack

Really Jack, then how do you explain the fact that the shell casings found at the Tippit murder scene matched Oswald's gun? The bullets were too mangled to positively ID but the casings were positive. A plant by the DPD regarding either the castings or the gun no doubt?

Read Officer Poe's testimony that he scratched his initials on the shell casings. His initials are

not on the extant casings.

Jack

Can you give me a link to that testimony please Jack, re Poe marking the shells, the two pieces of testimony I have (see links) say no such thing. Denis.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/21/2195-001.gif

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=78

More baloney from Myers. There is no proof that Oswald was ever at 10th and Patton.

Jack

Really Jack, then how do you explain the fact that the shell casings found at the Tippit murder scene matched Oswald's gun? The bullets were too mangled to positively ID but the casings were positive. A plant by the DPD regarding either the castings or the gun no doubt?

Absolutely fascinating Bill, thanks for sharing it. May I ask your opinion of the transcript? I assume your not a Dale Myers fan. Denis.