William Plumlee

Summary: The second half of this post includes verbatim copy of a memorandum written by J. Edgar Hoover immediately after he met with LBJ in the Oval Office seven days after President Kennedy had been murdered. The first half analyzes some of the more remarkable details of this memo. L. Fletcher Prouty, Colonel (retired) USAF, provided a xerox copy of this memo. Colonel Prouty was given a copy of this memo after his return as a VIP escort officer for a group travelling from Washington, D.C. to the South Pole. In 1963, John Edgar Hoover and Lyndon Baines Johnson knew each other very well. They had lived across the street from each other for the past 19 years. A professional bureaucrat of formidable talents, a 29-year-old Hoover was appointed director of the Bureau of Investigation in 1924 (Hoover added "Federal" to the title in 1935) by then Attorney General Harlan F. Stone to clean up a corrupt organization. During WWII, President Roosevelt expanded the FBI's reach charging Hoover with investigations of Nazi and Communist activities in the U.S. The Cold War gave the Bureau new power and Hoover new glory. Hoover's dossiers continued to grow as well as his command of Congress, his manipulation and intimidation of the press, and his stature in the country. Hoover supplied Joe McCarthy with a great deal of the ammunition which enabled McCarthy to sustain his "crusade" far longer than would have been possible without Hoover's connivance. When Robert Kennedy became Attorney General in 1961, Hoover's entrenched power-structures suffered a two-year, 10-month setback. Long before 1961, Hoover had created a direct channel of communication with whoever was the current occupant of the Oval Office -- bypassing the actual chain of command which went from the President, through the Attorney General, to Director of the FBI. When LBJ assumed the Presidency, Hoover's direct link into the White House was re-established. Johnson's official relationship with Hoover was enhanced by personal friendship as well. "As majority leader [in the Senate], Johnson already had been receiving a steady stream of reports and dossiers from the Director . . . which he prized both as a means of controlling difficult senators and as a gratification of earthier instincts. For President Johnson, secrets were in themselves perquisites of power. . . . No chief executive praised the Director so warmly. In an executive order exempting Hoover, then sixty nine, from compulsory retirement at seventy, Johnson hailed him as `a quiet, humble and magnificent public servant . . . a hero to millions of citizens and an anathema to all evil men. . . . The nation cannot afford to lose you. . . . No other American, now or in our past, has served the cause of justice so faithfully and so well' ("Johnson Hails Hoover Service, Waives Compulsory Retirement," New York Times, May 9, 1964)."[1] The following memorandum, written by Hoover immediately after his meeting with President Johnson, just seven days after the assassination of President Kennedy, is a remarkable document to say the least. There is much information imparted in the memo regarding just how fluid and unstable the cover story about who killed JFK still was shaping up to be at that time. By analyzing the discrepancies between the story Hoover briefed Johnson about on November 29th, and what the final cover story handed down by the Warren Commission would claim almost a year later, we can better appreciate the degree to which the final "official report" was sculpted to fit the constraints the Commission was forced to adhere to, regardless of the actual facts of the assassination. This document is what is known in bureaucracy-speak as a "memo for the record." It was a customary practice in the upper levels of the bureaucracy in the days before electronic technology in Washington, D.C. An official of high rank would usually return to her or his office after such a meeting and dictate a memorandum of as many details of the discussion as could be remembered. It was a way of recording one's own professional dealings for future reference. Hoover starts out recounting that Johnson brings up "the proposed group" -- what will become the Warren Commission -- to study the report Hoover is trying to complete by the end of the same day. This has been initiated by Johnson to prevent an independent investigation by Congress of the assassination (Reagan tried to do the same thing with the Tower Commission). Johnson would publically announce the creation of the Warren Commission later that same day. This was a critical move by Johnson: by appointing the Warren Commission, they effectively bottled up Bobby Kennedy, they bottled up the Senate, and they bottled up the state of Texas. The Tower Commission didn't succeed in pre-empting an investigation by Congress. In the end, the Warren Commission didn't either, but it did keep the cork in place preventing any other "official" examination for well over another decade. It is interesting to note that of all the people listed at the bottom of page one, retired General Lauris Norstad (who had been head of the NATO forces at SHAPE headquarters in Europe before his retirement) was the only one who somehow succeeded in not serving on this Presidential Commission. Earl Warren did not want the job and had sent a memo ahead to the Oval Office, before he answered LBJ's summons, stating he would not participate in such a commission. But when push came to shove, Johnson's formidable powers of persuasion turned Warren's no into a yes. Apparently even such focused persuasion could not win Norstad's agreement. The six topic bullets at the bottom of page one are file listings. This is important for anyone ever finding themself searching for documents from the government through Freedom Of Information Act requests. This type of listing is very useful because it lets you know that these files exist, and that it may be possible to locate documents using this method which you might not find (or even know about) any other way. In the middle of the first paragraph on page 3, Hoover relates how the Dallas police didn't even make a move to stop Ruby. This is a pretty heavy line by Hoover. He implies the Dallas cops must have somehow been in collusion to silence Oswald from living to stand trial. But the implication is never fleshed out. The second half of page three contains some of the most enlightening statements of the whole memo. Hoover tells Johnson three shots were fired. Johnson asks "if any were fired at him." This question goes a long way towards explaining the duress under which he served as president. LBJ had heard bullets flying overhead -- he had been that close to the action. It was completely out of keeping with the standard security procedures the Secret Service employed to have any such parade appearance be attended by both the president and the vice president. Johnson heard the sounds of those guns very clearly and the message they conveyed. He lived out the rest of his public life always aware of their possible return. Not long before he died, LBJ was interviewed by his friend and writer Leo Janos. In the July, 1973 issue of The Atlantic Monthly, Janos relates that LBJ told him: "that the assassination in Dallas had been part of a conspiracy"; "I never believed that Oswald acted alone . . ."; "we had been operating a damned Murder Inc. in the Carribean." The presence of the vice president 2 cars behind the president in the parade in Dallas was a fundamental breach of the level of security normally adhered to by the Secret Service. He took the experience back to the White House and never forgot its meaning. He could just as easily be snuffed out if he ever got out of line. Then there follows a most curious and confused explanation by Hoover of the three shots fired: "the President was hit by the first and third bullets and the second hit the Governor". Obviously Hoover did not yet know about the injury suffered by James Tague. Tague's face was nicked by a bullet fragment (or a fragment of the curb it hit) which missed the limousene entirely and struck the curb at his feet, approximately 160 feet past the location of the president's car. This shot would end up having to be one of "the three bullets fired" in the official story. Johnson then explicitly asks again "were they aimed at the President." It would appear that LBJ needed repeated assurance by Hoover that no one had intended to shoot him. Hoover then says a mouthful when he states "I further advised him that we have also tested the fact you could fire those three shots in three seconds." Apparently they did not yet understand the implications of the Zapruder film (or perhaps they were confident they would be successful in never allowing the public to gain any kind of access to it) and that it would be used as a clock. Probably the most confused statements Hoover recounts making are when he describes for Johnson's benefit how Connally was hit: "I explained that Connally turned to the President when the first shot was fired and in that turning he got hit. The President then asked, if Connally had not been in his seat, would the President have been hit by the second shot. I said yes." All we can conclude about this muddled explanation is that Hoover was doing his best to explain things that he himself did not understand or appreciate the complexity of. Hoover goes on to claim they found the gun and shells on the fifth floor. As you can see at this point, the number of variations on what would become the official cover story are quite numerous. All of the the facts of the assassination were working against them. They had a story all worked out -- 3 seconds, 3 shots, fifth floor -- and yet they didn't know the facts. Fletcher Prouty commented on this issue to me while we were discussing this memo recently. "It reminds me so much of when the U-2 was lost and the guys from NASA began to explain the U-2 flight until a couple of days later when somebody told them, `hey -- it wasn't a NASA flight, we can't do it that way.' And they began to change the cover story. But then Kruschev said, `look, I've got the pilot, I know the story.' The U-2 boys used to work across the hall from me -- I'd see them coming and going -- oh they were shattered, because their cover story had been totally wrong. So Hoover is in the same kind of a box here -- he is trying to explain something that is nothing but a cover story, and almost everytime he turns around, he finds there's another hole in it." Near the end Johnson extolls the virtues of his relationship to Hoover stating "I was more than head of the FBI - I was his brother and personal friend; that he knew I did not want anything to happen to his family; that he has more confidence in me than anybody in town." Pretty laudatory words which substantiate the unusally close rapport these two men had. Then Hoover writes that Johnson tells him "he would not embroil me in a jurisdictional dispute . . . " This was the reference to Bobby Kennedy and the pre-empting of any other legitimate, independent and official investigation that would not be under the control of the FBI. They would see to it that there would not be the kind of "rash of investigations" Hoover said at the beginning of this meeting "would be a three-ring circus." It is a known fact that in his later years Hoover's meglomania approached epic proportions. He had various reasons why he did not want any independent investigation which would not be dependent upon his agency for the collection of data and use of his investigative staff. Johnson was feeling quite vulnerable in these first days and was very dependent on Hoover to tell him what to do concerning how to consolidate his position and "reassure" the nation the assassination was not political in any way but rather the random occurence of one lone sick mind. That was the only approach to take if they wanted to avoid having to deal with why Kennedy had been killed. By de-politicizing the assassination, they were able to ignore the basic question of why. This memorandum demonstrates how the people in the federal government who were responsible for creating the Warren Commission (and providing it with only a very selected and specific set of "data" by which the Commission reached the conclusions that became the official report), did not start with the final cover story -- they created it later because even Hoover and Johnson didn't know about it a week after the event. They were still making things up a week later. It goes back to the old truth that it's a big mistake to overestimate the abilities and knowledge of people -- even in high office. They can make pretty stupid mistakes and then when they have to recant their stories, you are left with the kind of contrivance we know as the Warren Report. --ratitor ________ The Age of Surveillance, The Aims and Methods of America's Political Intelligence System, by Frank Donner, 1980, Knopf.

I believe one cannot obtain a clear picture into the Kennedy assassination unless they become familiar with the background and investigations of matters ongoing in Texas politics before LBJ obtained the office of President. THe old guard who have stepped in and side tracked anyone from getting to far into these investigations is, I think, about gone from the scene..., at least I hope so. THE ESTES DOCUMENTS In 1961, Henry Marshall was found shot to death on his remote Texas farm. He had been shot five times with a .22 caliber rifle and, since the rifle was lying beside his body, the coroner had no problem coming up with the probable scenario: Suicide. The only problem was the type of rifle - it was a bolt-action, and in non-shooter lay man's terms, this simply meant that Marshall would had to have manually worked the bolt four times (up, back, forward, down, fire - up, back, forward, down, fire, etc.) in order to shoot himself. At the same time he would have had to turn the rifle around at an awkward angle, pointing it into his side, stretching his arm and squeezing off each shot with his thumb. Five times. In addition to the obvious difficulties for a man to have committed suicide in this fashion, were the outcries of Marshall's family, who fervently disagreed with the suicide verdict. There appeared to be no good reason for Marshall, a successful farmer, with money in the bank and a solid record with his employer, the U. S. Department of Agriculture, to have committed suicide. But despite the strange appearance of things, the cause of death was officially listed as suicide by gunshot. Things started to change a few months later when Secretary of Agriculture, Orville Freeman, released information pertaining to an investigation that Marshall had been participating in at the time of his death. Billie Sol Estes, now known as the Texas wheeler-dealer and con-man supreme was, in 1961, at the peak of his agricultural career. He had become a multimillionaire and a virtual icon in Pecos, Texas. His success was due, in great part, by his solid connections in government - and one of his primary connections was Vice President Lyndon Johnson. Things started to fall apart when Estes' cotton allotment scheme began to be scrutinized by Agriculture officials. Estes had master minded a bizarre method of having the government transfer other farmer's cotton allotments to his own cotton acreage. In this way all of his land could be used to grow the tightly regulated crop. Such a scheme would have been impossible without help from high officials, either inside the U.S.D.A., or Washington, or both. Henry Marshall, in reviewing the cotton allotment irregularities connected with Billy Sol Estes, evidently uncovered a warm path that led to Vice President Johnson, but also to his own untimely death. Billie Sol went to trial and then prison, never once breathing the name of Lyndon Johnson - until his release in 1984. A Texas Ranger, Clint Peoples, had befriended Estes and convinced him that he should come clean with the whole truth. True to his word, Estes agreed to appear before a Robertson County grand jury and clear the record concerning the cotton allotments, the death of Henry Marshall and the involvement of LBJ and others. He recounted the whole ugly picture - from the millions he had funnelled into Johnson's secret slush fund, to the illegal cotton allotment scheme, to the murder of Henry Marshall. Estes testified that Lyndon Johnson, Cliff Carter, Malcolm Wallace and himself met several times to discuss the issue of the "loose cannon" - Henry Marshall. Marshall had refused a LBJ-arranged promotion to Washington headquarters, and it was feared that he was about to talk. Johnson, according to Estes finally said, "Get rid of him," and Malcolm "Mac" Wallace was given the assignment. According to testimony, Wallace followed Marshall to a remote area of his farm and beat him nearly unconscious. Then while trying to asphyxiate him with exhaust from Marshall's pickup truck, Wallace thought he heard someone approaching the scene, and hastily grabbed a rifle which customarily rested in the window rack of the truck. Quickly pumping five shots into Marshall's body, Wallace fled the scene. Suicide. That 1984 grand jury testimony accomplished only one official action. Marshall's death certificate was finally changed to read: "Cause of death - murder by gunshot." All of the guilty participants were dead - Johnson, Carter and Wallace. The only one left was Estes, and the U. S. Justice Department, getting wind of the Robertson grand jury testimony, wanted to talk to him. A letter was sent to Estes, requesting a meeting with him to discuss the provocative charges he had made. Estes enlisted the legal services of Douglas Caddy to represent him in the matter. Caddy then wrote a letter to the Justice Department asking for the protection of immunity, among other things for his client. In his letter, Caddy outlined far more than the Justice Dept. had bargained for. In addition to the crimes Estes had testified to for the Robertson County grand jury, Estes listed seven more murders directly linked to Lyndon Johnson, one of them being that of President John F. Kennedy; and all of them at the hand of Malcolm Wallace. After many months of negotiating at the highest levels of the Justice Department, Estes refused to testify to federal officials regarding the details of these crimes of the 1960's. We are still awaiting the day when Billie Sol, now 71, will testify to these details. A few months after the November, 1995 release of our book: "THE MEN ON THE SIXTH FLOOR," I received two of these letters of negotiation, from two different sources. The content of these letters was startling. These letters have never been released to the public and since they are private negotiations between the Justice Department and a citizen, it is doubtful that they ever would have been released, even to the Assassination Records Revue Board, whose federally mandated job it is to examine and oversee the release of documents pertaining to the assassination of President Kennedy. Here, for the first time, is the complete text of these two letters. They will be added to future printings of "THE MEN ON THE SIXTH FLOOR." Glen Sample LETTER # 1 - FROM JUSTICE DEPT. May 29, 1984 U. S. Justice Department Criminal Division Douglas Caddy Attorney-at-Law General Homes Building 7322 Southwest Freeway Suite 610 Houston, Texas 77074 Dear Mr. Caddy: RE: Billy Sol Estes I have considered the materials and information you have provided to me in connection with your representation of Billy Sol Estes. I understand that Mr. Estes claims to have information concerning the possible commission of criminal offenses in Texas in the 1960's and that he is willing to reveal that information at this time. I also understand that Mr. Estes wants several things in exchange for this information, such as a pardon for the offenses for which he has been convicted and immunity from any further prosecution among other things. Before we can engage in any further discussions concerning Mr. Estes' cooperation or enter into any agreement with Mr. Estes we must know the following things: (1) the information, including the extent of corroborative evidence, that Mr. Estes has about each of the events that may be violations of criminal law; (2) the sources of his information; and (3) the extent of his involvement, if any, in each of those events or any subsequent cover-ups. Until we have detailed information concerning these three things we can not determine whether any violations of federal criminal law occurred which are within our jurisdiction to investigate and prosecute and, if so, whether the information is credible and otherwise warrants investigation. Accordingly, if we are to proceed with meaningful discussions concerning Mr. Estes' proffered cooperation, we must receive a detailed and specific written offer of proof from you setting forth the information noted above. The government will hold your offer of proof in strictest confidence and will not make any use of it other than to determine the credibility of the proffered information and whether it warrants further discussions with or debriefings of Mr. Estes. I must make sure that several things are understood at this time concerning Mr. Estes' proffered cooperation. First, if after reviewing your offer of proof we decide the information that Mr. Estes can provide is credible and in all other respects warrants further investigation -- a decision which will be made unilaterally by the government -- it will be necessary for Mr. Estes to be interviewed and to reveal everything he knows about the possible criminal violations. He will have to do so completely, truthfully and without guile. Second, it must be understood that the government is not now making specific promises to Mr. Estes except with respect to the confidentiality and use of your offer of proof as noted above. If it is decided that Mr. Estes should be interviewed, the extent of promises concerning the confidentiality or use of the statement or promises of reward or consideration to Mr. Estes, if any, will be determined only after we receive a detailed written offer of proof from you. Above all else, I must emphasize that Mr. Estes must act with total honesty and candor in any dealings with the Department of Justice or any investigative agency. If any discussions with or debriefings of Mr. Estes take place after receipt of your offer of proof and if any agreement ultimately is reached after Mr. Estes provides a statement, the government will not be bound by any representations or agreements it makes if any of his statements at any time are false, misleading or materially incomplete or if he knowingly fails to act with total honesty and candor. Sincerely Stephen S. Trott Assistant Attorney General Criminal Division LETTER #2 - FROM DOUGLAS CADDY: August 9, 1984 Mr. Stephen S. Trott Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division U.S. Department of Justice Washington, D. C. 20530 RE: Mr. Billie Sol Estes Dear Mr. Trott: My client, Mr. Estes, has authorized me to make this reply to your letter of May 29, 1984. Mr. Estes was a member of a four-member group, headed by Lyndon Johnson, which committed criminal acts in Texas in the 1960's. The other two, besides Mr. Estes and LBJ, were Cliff Carter and Mac Wallace. Mr. Estes is willing to disclose his knowledge concerning the following criminal offenses: I. Murders 1. The killing of Henry Marshall 2. The killing of George Krutilek 3. The killing of Ike Rogers and his secretary 4. The killing of Harold Orr 5. The killing of Coleman Wade 6. The killing of Josefa Johnson 7. The killing of John Kinser 8. The killing of President J. F. Kennedy. Mr. Estes is willing to testify that LBJ ordered these killings, and that he transmitted his orders through Cliff Carter to Mac Wallace, who executed the murders. In the cases of murders nos. 1-7, Mr. Estes' knowledge of the precise details concerning the way the murders were executed stems from conversations he had shortly after each event with Cliff Carter and Mac Wallace. In addition, a short time after Mr. Estes was released from prison in 1971, he met with Cliff Carter and they reminisced about what had occurred in the past, including the murders. During their conversation, Carter orally compiled a list of 17 murders which had been committed, some of which Mr. Estes was unfamiliar. A living witness was present at that meeting and should be willing to testify about it. He is Kyle Brown, recently of Houston and now living in Brady, Texas. Mr. Estes, states that Mac Wallace, whom he describes as a "stone killer" with a communist background, recruited Jack Ruby, who in turn recruited Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Estes says that Cliff Carter told him that Mac Wallace fired a shot from the grassy knoll in Dallas, which hit JFK from the front during the assassination. Mr. Estes declares that Cliff Carter told him the day Kennedy was killed, Fidel Castro also was supposed to be assassinated and that Robert Kennedy, awaiting word of Castro's death, instead received news of his brother's killing. Mr. Estes says that the Mafia did not participate in the Kennedy assassination but that itparticipation was discussed prior to the event, but rejected by LBJ, who believed if the Mafia were involved, he would never be out from under its blackmail. Mr. Estes asserts that Mr. Ronnie Clark, of Wichita, Kansas, has attempted on several occasions to engage him in conversation. Mr. Clark, who is a frequent visitor to Las Vegas, has indicated in these conversations a detailed knowledge corresponding to Mr. Estes' knowledge of the JFK assassination. Mr. Clark claims to have met with Mr. Jack Ruby a few days prior to the assassination, at which time Kennedy's planned murder was discussed. Mr. Estes declares that discussions were had with Jimmy Hoffa concerning having his aide, Larry Cabell, kill Robert Kennedy while the latter drove around in his convertible. Mr. Estes has records of his phone calls during the relevant years to key persons mentioned in the foregoing account. II. The Illegal Cotton Allotments Mr. Estes desires to discuss the infamous illegal cotten allotment schemes in great detail. He has recordings made at the time of LBJ, Cliff Carter and himself discussing the scheme. These recordings were made with Cliff Carter's knowledge as a means of Carter and Estes protecting them selves should LBJ order their deaths. Mr. Estes believes these tape recordings and the rumors of other recordings allegedly in his possession are the reason he has not been murdered. III. Illegal Payoffs Mr. Estes is willing to disclose illegal payoff schemes, in which he collected and passed on to Cliff Carter and LBJ millions of dollars. Mr. Estes collected payoff money on more than one occasion from George and Herman Brown of Brown and Root, which was delivered to LBJ. In your letter of May 29, 1984, you request "(1) the information, including the extent of corroborative evidence, that Mr. Estes sources of his information, and (3) the extent of his involvement, if any, in each of those events or any subsequent cover-ups." In connection with Item # 1, I wish to declare, as Mr. Estes' attorney, that Mr. Estes is prepared without reservation to provide all the information he has. Most of the information contained in this letter I obtained from him yesterday for the first time. While Mr. Estes has been pre-occupied by this knowledge almost every day for the last 22 years, it was not until we began talking yesterday that he could face up to disclosing it to another person. My impression from our conversation yesterday is that Mr. Estes, in the proper setting, will be able to recall and orally recount a criminal matters. It is also my impression that his interrogation in such a setting will elicit additional corroborative evidence as his memory is stimulated. In connection with your Item #2, Mr. Estes has attempted in this letter to provide his sources of information. In connection with your Item #3, Mr. Estes states that he never participated in any of the murders. It may be alleged that he participated in subsequent cover-ups. His response to this is that had he conducted himself any differently, he, too, would have been a murder victim. Mr. Estes wishes to confirm that he will abide by the conditions set forth in your letter and that he plans to act with total honesty and candor in any dealings with the Department of Justice or any federal investigative agency. In return for his cooperation, Mr. Estes wishes in exchange his being given immunity, his parole restrictions being lifted and favorable consideration being given to recommending his long-standing tax leins being removed and his obtaining a pardon. Sincerely yours, Douglas Caddy Read the LATEST (4/20/98) DOCUMENTS!!... John Douglas Kinser was the owner of a miniature golf course in Austin, Texas. He was also having an affair with Josefa Johnson, the sister of Lyndon B. Johnson. Josefa was also having a relationship with Mac Wallace, who worked for Johnson at the Department of Agriculture. According to Barr McClellan, the author of Blood, Money & Power: How LBJ Killed JFK, Kinser asked Josefa if she could arrange for her brother to loan him some money. Johnson interpreted this as a blackmail threat (Josefa had told Kinser about some of her brother's corrupt activities). On 22nd October, 1951, Mac Wallace went to Kinser's miniature golf course. After finding Kinser in his golf shop, he shot him several times before escaping in his station wagon. A customer at the golf course had heard the shooting and managed to make a note of Wallace's license plate. The local police force was able to use this information to arrest Wallace. Wallace was charged with murder but was released on bail after Edward Clark arranged for two of Johnson's financial supporters, M. E. Ruby and Bill Carroll, to post bonds on behalf of the defendant. Johnson's attorney, John Cofer, also agreed to represent Wallace. On 1st February, 1952, Wallace resigned from his government job in order to distance himself from Lyndon B. Johnson. His trial began seventeen days later. Wallace did not testify. Cofer admitted his client's guilt but claimed it was an act of revenge as Kinser had been sleeping with Wallace's wife. The jury found Wallace guilty of "murder with malice afore-thought". Eleven of the jurors were for the death penalty. The twelfth argued for life imprisonment. Judge Charles O. Betts overruled the jury and announced a sentence of five years imprisonment. He suspended the sentence and Wallace was immediately freed. According to Bill Adler of The Texas Observer, several of the jurors telephoned John Kinser's parents to apologize for agreeing to a "suspended sentence, but said they did so only because threats had been made against their families." On 9th August, 1984, the lawyer of Billie Sol Estes, Douglas Caddy, wrote to Stephen S. Trott at the U.S. Department of Justice. In the letter Caddy claimed that Estes, Lyndon B. Johnson, Mac Wallace and Clifton C. Carter had been involved in the murders of Henry Marshall, George Krutilek, Harold Orr, Ike Rogers, Coleman Wade, Josefa Johnson, John Kinser and John F. Kennedy. Caddy added: "Mr. Estes is willing to testify that LBJ ordered these killings, and that he transmitted his orders through Cliff Carter to Mac Wallace, who executed the murders." In 2003 Barr McClellan published Blood, Money & Power: How LBJ Killed JFK. In the book McClellan argues that Lyndon B. Johnson and Edward Clark were involved in the planning and cover-up of the murder of John Kinser. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkinser.htm http://home.earthlink.net/~sixthfloor/estes.htm http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwallaceM.htm PREVIOUS POSTINGS ON THE WALACE FINGERPRINTS FROM THE EDUCATION: Sep 15 2005, 05:26 PM Post #1 Member Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 3313 In 1998, A. Nathan Darby executed an affadavit in which he confirmed a match between a latent fingerprint found on one of the cardboard boxes that comprised the TSBD "sniper's nest" and the inked print of Malcolm Wallace. Subsequently, Darby's match has been criticized by some people who have the requisite qualifications to critique his work, and by many who don't. A few observations on the debate that has surrounded the fingerprint issue follow, based on a wading through the mire of opinions over the years (with the significant caveat that I am certainly not professionally qualified in this field!!) 1.) Darby originally identified 14 matching points between the inked and latent prints that were given to him. While there is some debate on the amount of matching points necessary to make a definitive judgement on a match (The FBI suggests 8, some other countries require as many as 16, U.S. courts normally will accept 10-12, etc.), a 14 point match, testified to in court by a Certified Latent Print Examiner with proper experience and credentials, will generally clinch a case. 2.) Subsequently, criticism of Darby's match by fingerprint experts focused on dissimilarities between the latent and inked prints. Darby addressed these points directly, noting that Wallace had sustained an injury ("a laceration" ) which, upon healing, created a non-corresponding area near the "delta" in the latent. Other criticism amounted to ignoring the pressure distortion created by hoisting heavy boxes. Little or no substantive criticism was made of Darby's matching points. 3.) Darby's match was a BLIND match. Another Texas-based fingerprint expert, E.H. Hoffmeister, when presented with the two prints that had been given to Darby, concluded that they were made by the same person. When he was told that the Kennedy assassination was involved, he backed off the identification. The experts who concluded that the match was in error all knew the consequences of a positive match. In a perfect world this would not be important. In this world, unfortunately, even forensic judgements made by experienced scientists can be colored by many factors. The only two BLIND (i.e. scientifically proper) submissions of the latent print from the book carton and the inked Wallace print resulted in a match. 4.) The prints, and Darby's analysis, were submitted to the FBI for evaluation. After 18 months had passed, the Bureau released a simple statement that the print match was in error. No analysis accompanied the statement, and no further comment has been made by the FBI on this issue. I think that this verdict, backed by nothing but the (arguably dubious) history of FBI criminal science, is essentially worthless. 5.) Following the hubbub over the print match, Darby went back to the prints and spent a great deal of time (far more time than would normally be spent in a typical investigation), and eventually arrived at a 34 point match. 6.) Criticism has been levelled because Darby used photocopies rather than originals for his print comparison. Darby's professional critics used photocopies as well, though, and the copies that they used were, in a couple of cases, inferior to the copies Darby worked with. In this case, the point is probably moot. It might be relevant if we were dealing with a very few match points, some of which were being called into question. That's not the case here. 7.) If this print match did not have the importance that it obviously does, I seriously doubt that it would be at all controversial. Darby's 55 years of experience in his field, and his sterling record in court testimony over the years would easily carry the day. 34 matching points? Barring some extraordinary revelation, I think that Walt Brown's description of this print match as "a slam dunk" is probably correct. It has been suggested that Mac Wallace's presence on the sixth floor of the TSBD on 11/22/63 might well represent an attempt to blackmail Lyndon Johnson into silence and support. Estes claims he heard from Cliff Carter that Wallace was a shooter. These questions about the use of Wallace in the assassination can and should be discussed. In future years, I doubt that Wallace's presence that day in SOME role or other will be seriously challenged. When a CLPE with over a half century of experience makes a blind match, confirms it in an affadavit, stakes his reputation on it, offers to testify to it in court, deals with the objections of doubters, and states that, if he had to make a dying declaration on the matter, it would be "It's him!", I tend to believe that it WAS in fact 'him." John Simkin Sep 19 2005, 11:06 PM Post #2 Super Member Group: Admin Posts: 14108 Joined: 16-December 03 From: Worthing, Sussex Member No.: 7 Alan, a very clear account of the Mac Wallace fingerprint evidence. Is Nathan Darby the only fingerprint expert to conclude that this is a clear match? It would definitely help if other experts in this field came to the same conclusion. My problem with this fingerprint evidence is that it suggests that Mac Wallace was one of the gunmen involved in the assassination. This evidence has been used to suggest that Lyndon Johnson was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK. It has been pointed out that on 22nd October, 1951, Wallace shot dead John Kinser, the owner of a golf course in Austin. Wallace and Kinser were both having an affair with LBJ's sister, Josefa Johnson. According to Barr McClellan, Kinser was blackmailing LBJ. McClellan claims that the killing was organized by Ed Clark on behalf of LBJ. Billie Sol Estes has also claimed that LBJ was involved in the death of Kinser. At his trial in February, 1952, Wallace was found guilty of murder. Eleven of the jurors were for the death penalty. The twelfth argued for life imprisonment. The judge overruled the jury and announced a sentence of five years imprisonment. He suspended the sentence and Wallace was freed. Someone very powerful was obviously helping Wallace. It is indeed possible that LBJ was the person who put pressure on the judge to release Wallace. According to McClellan, LBJ arranged for Wallace to obtain a job with the Luscombe Aircraft Corporation. This became part of Ling-Tempco-Vought ( LTV), a conglomerate funded by Clark's clients in the oil industry. My problem with this is that if LBJ wanted to organize the assassination of JFK, the last person he would have recruited would have been Mac Wallace. Here was a convicted killer who already had close links with LBJ. Therefore, I believe that the Wallace fingerprint might have been planted at the scene in order to blackmail LBJ into covering up the assassination. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwallaceM.htm

David: Gator was on board in and out. I have often thought that it was Gator at that curb side, because he was part of the abort team and would have been in that position as a spotter for the team and close enough to do something if something happened near him. I have ask many over the years to check the photo to determine if he had a few missing fingers. I do not know why or how he has been labeled the way he has been by the research community. To me its all speculation or their part as to why he was there. I say he was there to aid in the "Abort", but that too, is my speculation..., but it is an educated guess on my part and came about because I was involved in many previous operations and knew a little bit on how they came about. I believe Gator thought the man next to him was someway involved in the attempt on the President's life (Gator's POV) and stationed himself there as a possible person who only wanted to see the parade and to watch this persons movements. (keep in mind that I am not allowed to "speculate" or have a faulty memory after all these years. I guess you could say because I was there I am held to a higher standard that most in the research community.., or by some a "lower" standard than some. It was Roseli that did not get back on board the flight out. There were others that also were not on board but I do not remember their code names. We all worked with codes such as , Hawk, Raven, Eagle, Gator, etc. Interesting article by Ron Ecker: http://hobrad.angelfire.com/umbrella.html

Interesting articles from some years back... in case anyone is interesting in reading it. http://hobrad.angelfire.com/umbrella.html UMBRELLA MAN and http://viswiki.com/en/Billie_Sol_Estes Billy Sol ESTES Billie Sol Estes (born 1924) was a scandal-ridden Texas-based financier best known for his association with U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson and for having accused Johnson of a variety of crimes, including the assassination of his presidential predecessor, John F. Kennedy.[1] Estes was born in Alanreed in west Texas. He amassed his fortune through the federal surplus grain program. After marrying in 1946, he moved to Pecos, the seat of Reeves County in southwest Texas, where he sold irrigation pumps powered by natural gas. He channeled those profits to launch still another successful business selling anhydrous ammonia fertilizer.[2] Mr. Estes currently lives in Granbury, Texas. Fraud charges In the late 1950s, the United States Department of Agriculture began controlling the price of cotton, specifying quotas to farmers. The limited production hurt Estes' businesses. He responded by expanding into cotton production himself. Over the next few years he developed a massive fraud, claiming to grow and store cotton that never existed, then using the cotton as collateral for bank loans. During this same period he became involved in Texas Democratic state politics and made political contributions to U.S. Senator and later Vice President of the United States Lyndon Johnson.[3] On June 3, 1961, Estes' local contact at the Agricultural Stabilization and Conservation Service, Henry Marshall, was found dead in his car with five gunshot wounds on a remote part of his own ranch. County Sheriff Lee Farmer attributed Marshall's death to carbon monoxide poisoning brought about from a hose attached to the exhaust pipe of his car. The body was buried without an autopsy. The suicide verdict was later overturned.[4] On April 4, 1962, Estes' accountant, George Krutilek, was found dead from carbon monoxide poisoning. Krutilek had been questioned by the FBI about Estes the day before. Meanwhile, Lubbock attorney Warlick Carr, brother of future Attorney General Waggoner Carr, filed some thirty civil suits against Estes to reclaim damages. As a result of these deaths and an investigation into his business practices, on April 5, 1962, Estes and several business associates were indicted by a federal grand jury on fifty-seven counts of fraud. Estes was accused of swindling investors, banks and the federal government of at least $24 million through false agricultural subsidy claims on cotton production and the use of non-existent supplies of anhydrous ammonia fertilizer as collateral for loans. He was eventually found guilty of additional federal charges and sentenced to fifteen years in prison. Two of Estes' associates, Harold Orr and Coleman Wade, were also indicted but died of carbon monoxide poisoning (apparent suicides) before they went to trial. Estes was found guilty of fraud and sentenced to eight years in prison. Howard Pratt, manager of a Chicago fertilizer supply company, was also found dead in his car from an apparent carbon monoxide poisoning. There was also a half bottle of liquor in his car; however, after testing, no alcohol was present in Howard's body. The high-profile case generated extensive national press coverage and was the first topic of President John F. Kennedy's press conference on May 17, 1962. As a result of the financial and political scandal, Kennedy apparently began to consider dropping Johnson as his running mate in the 1964 election. The political fallout extended to the election of Ed Foreman as a Republican to the United States House of Representatives from west Texas in 1962. At the time, he and Bruce Alger of Dallas were the only Texas Republican congressmen. There were twenty-two Democrats in the national delegation. Democratic incumbent J. T. Rutherford's ties to Estes were the main cause of his defeat. Foreman, however, was defeated two years later in the Johnson-Humphrey landslide. Although Estes went to prison, his conviction was later overturned by the United States Supreme Court in Estes v. Texas, 381 U.S. 532 (1965). His appeal hinged upon television cameras and broadcast journalists having been allowed in the courtroom, depriving him of a fair trial. He prevailed by a narrow 5-4 vote. Allegations and conspiracy theories After his release from jail and LBJ's death, Estes began making allegations regarding Johnson. According to the authors of The Men Who Killed Kennedy, Estes claimed to have funneled millions of dollars into Johnson's pockets from the cotton allotment scam. Although some contributions are a matter of record, Johnson denied the bribery charges. The Estes case also figures prominently in the best-selling book A Texan Looks at Lyndon: A Study in Illegitimate Power by the Texas historian J. Evetts Haley.[5] Estes later claimed Johnson was involved in a conspiracy to murder witnesses in the Estes trial as part of a wider conspiracy related to the Kennedy assassination . In 1984, Estes' lawyer, Douglas Caddy, wrote to the Department of Justice claiming that Estes, Lyndon B. Johnson, Malcolm "Mac" Wallace, and Cliff Carter had been involved in the murders of Henry Marshall, George Krutilek, Harold Orr, Ike Rogers and his secretary, Coleman Wade, the president's sister Josefa Johnson, John Kinser and John F. Kennedy. Caddy added, "Mr. Estes is willing to testify that LBJ ordered these killings, and that he transmitted his orders through Cliff Carter to Mac Wallace, who executed the murders."[6] Estes agreed to provide supporting proof to the FBI, which proffered immunity in exchange but Estes ultimately refused to produce any evidence. Critics suggest Estes' claims of his involvement in a wide conspiracy involving mass murder and political assassination were motivated by the desire of a convicted felon to deflect responsibility for his own criminal behavior and later as a means of generating publicity for the purpose of selling a book he had written. Billie Sol Estes in popular culture Folk-protest singer Phil Ochs wrote a song about the incident called "The Ballad of Billie Sol." Allan Sherman performed a parody folksong (co-written with Lou Busch): "Oh, Look What You've Done, Billie Sol, Billie Sol," as did Jesse Lee Turner: mp3.[7][8][9] The Chad Mitchell Trio performed "The Ides of Texas" about him as well. More recently, Houston-based singer/songwriter David Brake wrote the song "Swindler" about Estes and performed it with That Damn Band. Estes' professed active membership in the Churches of Christ was a cause of some discussion among his fellow parishioners.[10] Notes ^ "Billie Sol Estes and the JFK assassination". http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbakerB.html. ^ "Same reference above". http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbakerB.html. ^ "The Estes Documents". http://home.earthlink.net/~sixthfloor/estes.htm. ^ "Henry Marshall". http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmarshallH.htm. ^ Haley, J. Evetts (March 9, 1964), A Texan Looks at Lyndon: A Study in Illegitimate Power, Palo Duro Press, ISBN 1568490097 ^ Livingstone, Harrison (July 6, 2006), The Radical Right and the Murder of John F. Kennedy: Stunning Evidence, Trafford Publishing, ISBN 1412040558 ^ http://rcs-discography.com/rcs/ss/09/ss9192.mp3 ^ GNP Crescendo (RCS Label Listing) at rcs.law.emory.edu ^ Jesse Lee Turner: GNP Crescendo 188 at rcs.law.emory.edu ^ Leroy Garrett (1962 February), The Church of Billie Sol Estes, Restoration Review, Volume 4 Issue 2. Further reading Duscha, Julius (1964) Taxpayers' Hayride: The farm problem from the New Deal to the Billie Sol Estes case Little, Brown, Boston, Massachusetts, OCLC 360916 Estes, Billie Sol (2004) Billie Sol Estes: a Texas Legend BS Production, Granbury, Texas, OCLC 61207259; an autobiography Estes, Pam (1983) Billie Sol: King of Texas wheeler-dealers Noble Craft Books, Abilene, Texas, ISBN 0-915733-00-5; a biography by his daughter Intergovernmental Relations Subcommittee (1966) Operations of Billie Sol Estes: eighth report by the Committee on Government Operations Intergovernmental Relations Subcommittee, House Committee on Government Operations, United States Congress, Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., OCLC 35 Staff (25 May 1962) "Investigations: Decline & Fall" Time Magazine an account of the Billie Sol Estes scandal; Time cover: "The Billie Sol Estes Scandal" 25 May 1962 “Billie Sol Estes” is strongly related to: Lyndon B. Johnson John F. Kennedy Estes v. Texas The Men Who Killed Kennedy Lou Busch J. T. Rutherford Ed Foreman Bruce Alger J. Evetts Haley Chad Mitchell Trio Reeves County, Texas Collateral Quota Felon Taylor County, Texas Allan Sherman Phil Ochs Pecos, Texas Ranch Accountant Hubert Humphrey Autopsy Bribery Fertilizer Carbon monoxide John F. Kennedy assassination United States Department of Agriculture Abilene, Texas Irrigation Ammonia United States Department of Justice Fraud Assassination Vice President of the United States Natural gas Federal Bureau of Investigation Cotton Prison Historian Suicide

In case some missed this post from Al Carrier in 2004, before the thread was shut down. Nov 26 2004, 06:46 AM Post #1 Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 1-November 04 Member No.: 1814 I have been seriously researching the JFK Assassination for some fourteen years. What I bring into it is a background in weaponry, ballistics, crime scene investigative techniques and an understanding for sniper deployment and procedures. I have never accepted the official version of a lone sniper achieving the feat from a location 60’ above in the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Then add to this official account, the capabilities of the weapon and shooter that was accepted by the Warren Commission and later the HSCA, it was ridiculous. Wound ballistics became an immediate issue when I began researching the Kennedy assassination in order to determine a shot origin. While there is overwhelming evidence in my opinion of a shooter on the north knoll at the time of the assassination, I had issues with this angle of trajectory creating the head wound suffered by President Kennedy. The discovery of Badgeman by Jack White and Gary Mack in the Mooreman Photograph, witnesses who reported hearing shot(s) on the north knoll, Gordon Arnold’s reporting of a shooter there, as well as other sightings of shooters and smoke from that origin, leaves no doubt in my mind that shot(s) were fired from this location. That does not necessarily mean that the head wound was inflicted by this shot origin and in my opinion from my background in weaponry and wound ballistics, I believe that it was not. There are issues to consider when determining a point of entrance. The greater fracturing of the skull will occur forward of the point of impact as the energy from the penetrating projectile will radiate forward along the trajectory path of the initial penetration point. As seen in the Zapruder film and after the lightening of the top of the head autopsy photos, a large defect was also found high on the head, right of midline and a flap of scalp and partial skull bone was attached to the flap. This is created when the penetration trajectory is shallow below the skull, creating the energy dispersion to push out against the fractured bone. By noting where the skull fracture and flap begins, it is logical that the point of entry is close to that location. By following the trajectory back to the massive wound in the right portion of the occipital parietal, which was clearly seen at Parkland Hospital by medical personnel, it shows a true line of trajectory and shot origin. The challenge to this line of trajectory in support of shot origin of the north knoll comes from many researchers and is supported by forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht. Dr. Wecht believes that a shot fired from the north knoll, striking the right temporal/parietal region of the president’s skull would DEFLECT and turn outward (left), maintaining a wound cavity to the right portion of the skull. The problem with this is that penetration from a rifle caliber projectile that is traveling in excess of 1800fps and most likely above 2400fps, would not deviate outward, but actually slightly inward through skull penetration. The ratio of diameter v. length of the projectile penetrating through a multi-layed resistant surface, such as skull plating, would actually create a rollover effect through surface penetration. This would cause the projectile to turn slightly inward instead of deflecting upon penetration. This has been proven in wound ballistic testing through the work of Dr. Martin Fackler over the past twenty years and accepted by the NIJ in studies of wound ballistics in order to determine effectiveness in ballistic resistant materials in ballistic vests. The problem this shot trajectory creates is that it shows a shot origin that is in conflict with the witnesses who made a determination on shot origin by what they heard. This shot trajectory would place a shot origin in the region of the south end of the overpass over some sixty feet to the south knoll parking lot. No witnesses reported hearing a shot from this location, other than one who has came forward as being part of an abort team. This witness I will address later. With 200 plus witnesses in DP at the time of the assassination and none focusing on shots from this location, most researchers write off the likelihood of a south plaza shooter. They also have concerns with this exposed location. This can easily be explained by a common practice by military sniper teams in both urban and rural environments. Often, the most ideal location for shot origin, especially on a moving target, is a location that exposes the shooter the greatest. Making the shot is only half the objective, the other is escaping either undetected or without being molested. The military found a practice to overcome this obstacle and it has been termed “Canyon Shoot”. This practice utilizes multiple snipers from locations suited to draw attention to those origins where they cannot be accessed, or by allowing the terrain to confuse the shot origin to the enemy present. The term “Canyon Shoot” was unofficially adopted when Sgt. Alvin York utilized various shot origins and the echo effects of the terrain to fool the enemy into believing they were surrounded, when in fact it was only he who was shooting. In the case of Dealey Plaza, a shooter firing from the Texas School Book Depository would initially fire and the other shooters in the plaza would cue off the Depository shooter by startle reaction and fire a round immediately on top of the shot fired by the Depository shooter. Witnesses would detect the first sound and roughly identify a shot origin and this would cover the fire of the others shooters, deeper in the plaza. The echo effect of the Plaza would also aid in making the witnesses believe that it was shot reverberation that they were hearing deeper in the plaza. With another shooter firing from the North Knoll, this would direct witnesses along Elm and at the intersection of Elm and Houston to focus their attention on the area between the Depository and the Knoll. By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one. The closest known witnesses to the South End Overpass/South Knoll position were James Tague who was positioned on Commerce under the overpass, two Dallas Police Officers and nine railroad employees atop the underpass over Elm, and Tosh Plumlee and an associate who were on the bank of the South Knoll. Tague did not hear a shot originate from overhead or to his left and rear, but his perception could easily have been hampered by the extreme echo effects of all shots reverberating under the underpass. The persons atop the underpass did not detect the shot fired to their left, but their attention was on the approaching motorcade and their attention was drawn to the shots fired from the north knoll, which was in the direct of the approaching motorcade and of nearly equal distance in comparison to the south origin. Plumlee and his associate, who he has reported as being sent to Dallas as part of an assassinations abort team, clearly heard a shot fired from behind them, that would put it in line with the shot origin I have been describing. Plumlee was also ex-military and was their to stop an assassination attempt, so he would be prepared for the sounds he was about to hear. He apparently also recognized the ideal location of the south knoll region as that is where he chose to station himself. The most recent challenge to the South End of the Overpass/South Knoll shot origin comes from Sixth Floor Museum Curator Gary Mack. Mack has come forward with new reporter Bob Jett, who has claimed to have been in the South Knoll Parking Lot eating his lunch at the time of the assassination. Jett has stated that he saw no assassin and heard no shots fired from that origin. Jett was working at the time of the assassination. My question as to his credibility and presence is why did he not immediately report on air, witnessing the assassination? Why was he not called upon by the Warren Commission to testify as to what he saw and did not see? The Warren Commission directed questions at most witnesses as to whether they heard or saw anything suspicious in this region. Wouldn’t Jett have been the nail in the coffin they needed to disprove a shooter there? Another established researcher who supports my belief of shot origin from the south end of overpass/south knoll region, is nationally recognized Bloodstain Pattern Analysis Expert and Instructor, Sherry Gutierrez. Sherry has presented at JFK Lancer November in Dallas Seminars in 2001 and 2003. In 2003, she partly focused on this shot origin. She has also produced threads on the Lancer Forum regarding this. Beyond the headshot wound issue, I have also aligned this shot origin with the neck wound and have established it by showing Elm at a higher elevation at this point and how the shot would have to penetrate the windshield through its trajectory. This also explains the compromised velocity that would result in a shallower wound path. I have been challenged on this through photos including Altgens 6 and 7 and have provided arguments on both. Because this is already a rather complex subject, I will not go into detail on the throat wound. Al Carrier

The photo of Dealey Plaza taken around the time that Kennedy was killed has me asking 2 questions and both answers will probably be 'no.' The white van heading North, that wouldn't be a laundry truck like the one seen in Dealey Plaza? The car in the center of the picture on the bottom, is that a Rambler? (Also odd: there seems to have been a collision with 2 cars at the median.) Kathy C Kathy: Thanks for the post. I do not know for sure about the collision. I do not remember seeing one, but I was moving a little fast that day. I was told some years later that, "... if I was there I would have remembered the wreck...". Will that did a number on me. I never knew about any, "wreck". But because this person was an "EXPERT" on the Kennedy assassination and I was just a "fabricator, seeking publicity for a book", that was the end of the south knoll photo conversations.

You're welcome, Tosh. It's great to bounce this stuff to ya. There's more...Laos was one end of the teeter-totter. The other end was Cuba... Some years ago I saw a document that indicated that JFK was going to fire LBJ, or take him off the ticket in the next election. It seems some of the Texas questions about LBJ and his early illegal politics he engaged in had became known to the Kennedy administration and the DoJ. Mac Wallace was mentioned in that document. Does anyone have a copy of that document or information concerning the investigation into LBJ's activities done by Bobby Kennedy? i have no idea if this may be what you saw i do not recall such other than this that is available.fwiw..b http://www.ratical.com/ratville/JFK/Hoover.html Thanks Bernice: This is a good recap and I believe it was taken from that document I mentioned. The document was a DoJ classified document declassified about 1999 I believe. Was heavy blacked out and some facts covered up in reference to content... Thanks for providing the link for study. Tosh

You're welcome, Tosh. It's great to bounce this stuff to ya. There's more...Laos was one end of the teeter-totter. The other end was Cuba... Some years ago I saw a document that indicated that JFK was going to fire LBJ, or take him off the ticket in the next election. It seems some of the Texas questions about LBJ and his early illegal politics he engaged in had became known to the Kennedy administration and the DoJ. Mac Wallace was mentioned in that document. Does anyone have a copy of that document or information concerning the investigation into LBJ's activities done by Bobby Kennedy?

Bill: As I see it there are no dumb questions. Yes I do know that the north knoll near the corner has been metal detected and I was told that something was found that they thought was a spent 30 cal round. That was about ten years ago. However, It was said it was planted some years after the event. I did go there myself (on the north knoll) with a detector and started a scan, but was ran off because I did not have a "permit". I had almost done the scan and found nothing. The south knoll as far as I know has never been scanned. I was looking for a shot that perhaps missed from the south knoll and landed on the north knoll. I still think a professional team should really look at those area and really look them over good and if something was found perhaps they could date it and document it. None the Less I do not think Texas or Dallas will ever let that happen.

Plumlee and his associate, who he has reported as being sent to Dallas as part of an assassinations abort team, clearly heard a shot fired from behind them, that would put it in line with the shot origin I have been describing. Plumlee was also ex-military and was their to stop an assassination attempt, so he would be prepared for the sounds he was about to hear. He apparently also recognized the ideal location of the south knoll region as that is where he chose to station himself. [\quote] Tosh, I need to ask you a few questions and I hope you don't get angry because we like you on this forum. But there are things I wish to clear up. What good is an assassination abort team that arrives minutes before the motorcade? How were you going to find the shooters? How were you going to do that in that short time? It sounds like a "half-assed" scheme to me. I don't think you had ever been in Dealey Plaza before. In what way were you going to stop Kennedy (and Connally)'s execution? Other questions: Had you ever met Lee Harvey Oswald? Do you believe there were 2 Oswalds? Did you ever meet David Ferrie? Did you ever consider the possibility that you were flying the assassins themselves, with only minutes to spare? Something's not right. I hope you will answer these questions. I don't mean them in a mean-spirited way. I'm just not following your logic. Kathy C For some reason I could not post my reply here earlier. I started a SOUTH KNOLL #2 and your anwser is there

Yes! But I'd speculate that the ones who tried to stop it only wanted to save it for another day, and thus sought to "abort" the mission rather than expose it. If anything, Oswald(s) was/were portable. Here is a demonstration of the kind of pure power that can launch abort missions: Max Hollands's The Assassination Tapes, pg 57: Well, that certainly cleared that up -- dinnit? JFK's body wasn't back in town a half hour before Harriman foreclosed on any Soviet complicity in his murder -- in spite of a stream of Oswald-as-Castro-agent "evidence" proliferating like an oil slick that afternoon and evening. How could Harriman responsibly rule out the Soviets unless he actually knew who killed Kennedy? We know that the Oswald-as-lone-nut "official story" emanated from the White House Situation Room that afternoon: From Vincent Salandria's "The Tale Told by Two Tapes": http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...art=#entry31073 (quote on) In November of 1966, I read Theodore H. White's The Making of the President, 1964... [O]n page 33 I read the following about the flight back to Washington, D.C. from Dallas: ...* The Situation Room of the White House first fingered Oswald as the lone assassin when an innocent government, with so much evidence in Dealey Plaza of conspiracy, would have been keeping all options open. Therefore this premature birth of the single-assassin myth points to the highest institutional structure of our warfare state as guilty of the crime of killing Kennedy. Such a source does not take orders from the Mafia nor from renegade elements. But such a source is routinely given to using the Mafia and supposedly out-of-control renegade sources to do its bidding. * McGeorge Bundy was in charge of the Situation Room and was spending that fateful afternoon receiving phone calls from President Johnson, who was calling from Air Force One when the lone-assassin myth was prematurely given birth. (Bishop, Jim, The Day Kennedy Was Shot, New York & Funk Wagnalls, 1968), p. 154) McGeorge Bundy as the quintessential WASP establishmentarian did not take his orders from the Mafia and/or renegade elements. (quote off) Who did Bundy take orders from? Joseph Trento, The Secret History of the CIA pgs 334-5: I'd speculate the blue-blood types who pushed the Oswald-lone-nut "official story" the afternoon of 11/22/63 had a motive to keep Kennedy in power -- they were already getting their way with him! To wit: W. Averell Harriman was the architect of the overthrow of Diem. Kennedy in his own words put Harriman at the front of "those in favor of the coup," the overthrow of he So Vietnamese government and murder of Ngo Dinh Diem and his brother Ngo Dinh Nhu on 11/1-2/63. http://www.whitehousetapes.net/clips/1963_...nam_memoir.html From David Talbot's Brothers, pg 217: Harriman was conducting his own foreign policy in South East Asia. As Kennedy's chief negotiator on the 1962 Geneva Accords he took a dovish approach and sought total neutralization of Laos while the rest of the US foreign policy establishment wanted to put in 60,000 US troops ("Ave's Cave" the hawks called it.) But on Vietnam policy Harriman was a covert super-hawk. Gareth Porter describes Harriman's machinations in detail in his great book, The Perils of Dominance, in a section titled: The Hidden Struggle Over Peace Diplomacy, pgs 153-64. Debra Conway did a great presentation on this at the 2005 Lancer. http://jfklancer.com/dallas05/ppt/conway/versions.ppt.htm Here's a passage about Harriman's influence on SE Asia policy from an article titled: "William Colby, the Hmong, and the CIA": http://www.hmongnet.org/hmong-au/hmongcia.htm (empahsis added) Since Harriman gave orders to Lyndon Johnson, it shouldn't surprise us that the Assistant Secretary of State gave orders to the deputy director of the CIA. Why did Harriman personally seek a de-militarized Laos and a SVN gov't friendly to American military ascendancy? The former policy-- a low-level conflict in "neutral" Laos -- bucked the US foreign-policy/military Establishment. The latter policy -- a covert sabotage of Kennedy's Vietnam peace initiatives -- obviously bucked Kennedy. Kernnedy wanted to get out of Vietnam. Harriman had his own agenda. Maybe it had to do with those bright fields of Laotian opium poppy... Got that right ...But this beats 99% of anything else discussed on the subject. Thank You Cliff for taking the time to gather and post all the above. It is certainly food for thought and does seem to fit a common thread of the time.

At the moment of impact, which way was the Presidents head turned.., and too was his body leaning to the left? Can anyone figure out the degree line of sight of the fatal head shot taking into account the slight curve in Elm street to the south and the leaning of the President to his left and the head turn and tell me what those degrees mean and how it effects the line of sight of a north knoll picket fence shot? TOSH IAM SINCERELY HOPING ONE OF THE FELLAS STEP IN WITH THE DEGREES ETC..NOT IN MY SCOPE AT ALL SORRY...I HAVE FOUND A PHOTO OF TWO OF YOUR PLANES, YOU MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE IT..THEY DO NOT APPEAR TO BE IN THE SAME TIME FRAME RE YOUR POST TO PETER BUT FWIIW...ALSO I FOUND A PHOTO THAT LEE FOREMAN TOOK ON ONE OF HIS MANY PHOTO ADVENTURES TO THE DEALEY AREA IT SHOWS A PATHWAY THAT WOULD DESCEND TOWARDS AND DOWN TO THE PARKING LOT BELOW...FROM THE SOUTH CORNER OF THE OVERPASS..END OF THE WALL IT APPEARS TO ME, NOW THOUGHT IF THIS PATH WAS THERE IN 63 AND I AM THINKING PERHAPS IT COULD HAVE BEEN AS I IMAGINE THE KIDS HAVE USED IT PERHAPS FOR YEARS JUST TO GET AWAY FOR AWHILE ON THE EMBANKMENT PERHAPS, WELL IT COULD HAVE BEEN USED PERHAPS FOR A SHOOTER HIDDEN AT THE END OF THAT SOUTH CORNER THAT JUTS OUT AS YOU AND HAS BEEN MENTIONED IN THE PAST TO HAVE HIDDEN, AND AFTER DOWN THE PATH SLOPE TO THE PARKING LOT OR THE OTHER WAY AROUND FROM THE PARKING LOT AND UP OVER THE TRACKS...??? JUST SOME RAMBLE...TAKE CARE B...PS THANKS LEE...ALSO ONE OF THE CANCELLARE ( tOO LARGE TO BE UPLOADED WILL MAKE SMALLER AND THEN POST...THAT LEE STUDIED AND MARKED FOR YOU...AND HIS OVERPASS SHOT..SORRY TOSH EVERY ONE OF THEM IS MUCH TOO LARGE TO UPLOAD I WILL DOWNSIZE THEM AND THEN BE BACK AND POST...B ALL PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS THANKS...PPS TOSH TAKE NOTICE IN DOUG WELDON'S PHOTO SHT FROM THE SOTH OVERPASS THE ACTOR HAS HIS HEAD TURNED TO THE LEFT AS YOU MENTIONED...THE PRESIDENT HAD...TA B NONE OF THE PHOTOS ARE UPLOADING NOT EVEN THOSE OF CORRECT SIZE THERE MUST BE A PROBLEM BETWEEN MY GREMLIN AND THE FORUM OR IT'S SETTINGS OR HARDWARE PERHAPS HELP... HERE ARE THE PHOTOS TOSH NO PROBLEMS TODAY...BEST B Thanks Bernice. I just got back from Juarez and will try to catch. Does not seem like much interest so should not have much to do. Seems when I ask questions they are not answered, but I do bust my butt to answer any questions in detail. Present company excepted. Perhaps I have had too long a day. I was at the Juarez Morgue today it was a chilling sight. The Mexico matter is a very serious matter and effects our National Security along this border. However that is another matter. The DC-3 is the one used in Dallas. At one time I said I did not think it was the one used in Dallas, but found out later the tail number and resignation did match It had been repainted and used in Iran Contra operations when I found it some years ago at White Rock Aviation airport near Dallas Texas. At one time it had been registered. to Atlantic Richfield of Texas. The D-18 Twin Beach is the one Lester Murphy flew into the Dominican Republic in the late fifties. Thanks for posting these old pictures. I hope the one sent to Bud Finisterwald is of some use to you.

I believe it was "RAVEN", but not really sure after all these years. But, I do think it was Raven. There are some on this forum who might have the record and would care to confirm this. It was put on tape many years ago in California. There was so much going on and getting off and on the aircraft, and movement, I could not even keep them straight at the time of the flight. I told some investigators that at the time after the shooting, but it was said I was, "holding out" and protecting the players. No facts to that just their statements and thoughts at the time. I was Eagle along with Rojas the other pilot. That I do know.

Kathy and Bernice: Sorry I had to start another thread where I did answer your questions. Because of some reason I could not post my reply in your section so I started a SOUTH KNOLL 2 and you can find your anwsers there.. sorry. Tosh

Tosh, Wouldn't Rosselli, given who he was, fit more the role of an assassin than an abort team member? Ron Ron: I would agree except Roselli liked Kennedy as well as other person associated with organized crime. Not all Mafia hated JFK or Bobby for that matter. They were split on that matter because of the drug thing and things that happen in Havana. And too, Roselli worked operations for the government on many occasions. Perhaps he was a "two edged sword". However, I feel he was there to see if he could ID anyone from the families who were there who might want to kill the President and aid the team. Roseli always worked close with MI because he wanted the points so as he would not be deported. He worked out of JM/WAVE on more that one mission. Not to speak for Roselli but he thought that LBJ was behind the assassination. His story about his being in the sewer was nothing more that to draw some of the players out into the open. Hence Banono and the Grace Ranch for starters... my thoughts and speculation and feelings because I knew the man and had flown him to many places as an operative.

David: Gator was on board in and out. I have often thought that it was Gator at that curb side, because he was part of the abort team and would have been in that position as a spotter for the team and close enough to do something if something happened near him. I have ask many over the years to check the photo to determine if he had a few missing fingers. I do not know why or how he has been labeled the way he has been by the research community. To me its all speculation or their part as to why he was there. I say he was there to aid in the "Abort", but that too, is my speculation..., but it is an educated guess on my part and came about because I was involved in many previous operations and knew a little bit on how they came about. I believe Gator thought the man next to him was someway involved in the attempt on the President's life (Gator's POV) and stationed himself there as a possible person who only wanted to see the parade and to watch this persons movements. (keep in mind that I am not allowed to "speculate" or have a faulty memory after all these years. I guess you could say because I was there I am held to a higher standard that most in the research community.., or by some a "lower" standard than some. It was Roseli that did not get back on board the flight out. There were others that also were not on board but I do not remember their code names. We all worked with codes such as , Hawk, Raven, Eagle, Gator, etc.

Note I tried to post this in the right thread South Knoll, but the Quotes thing will not let me and I do noy have time to figure it out: I do not want to hear I refused to answer Bernice and Kathy's questions: Plumlee and his associate, who he has reported as being sent to Dallas as part of an assassinations abort team, clearly heard a shot fired from behind them, that would put it in line with the shot origin I have been describing. Plumlee was also ex-military and was their to stop an assassination attempt, so he would be prepared for the sounds he was about to hear. He apparently also recognized the ideal location of the south knoll region as that is where he chose to station himself. [\quote] Tosh, I need to ask you a few questions and I hope you don't get angry because we like you on this forum. But there are things I wish to clear up. What good is an assassination abort team that arrives minutes before the motorcade? It sounds like a "How were you going to find the shooters? How were you going to do that in that short time? half-assed" scheme to me. I don't think you had ever been in Dealey Plaza before. In what way were you going to stop Kennedy (and Connally)'s execution? Other questions: Had you ever met Lee Harvey Oswald? Do you believe there were 2 Oswalds? Did you ever meet David Ferrie? Did you ever consider the possibility that you were flying the assassins themselves, with only minutes to spare? Something's not right. I hope you will answer these questions. I don't mean them in a mean-spirited way. I'm just not following your logic. Kathy C Kathy I'll do what I can in reference to your questions: "... What good is an assassination abort team that arrives minutes before the motorcade? How were you going to find the shooters? How were you going to do that in that short time? It sounds like a "half-assed" scheme to me. I don't think you had ever been in Dealey Plaza before. In what way were you going to stop Kennedy (and Connally)'s execution?...". I agree that a team could not really do very much with as little time as they had to get into position. The first place the assassination was to take place was the 'Aldopus Hotel' some blocks to the east. That location was changed at the last minute. (told to me sometime later by Bennette (pronounced Ben'net'tee) and Rex Allen in Florida. Keep in mind that I was NOT a leader of this team I was a pilot and only told about what their mission was, either directly at south Floridaand by overhead conversations on the flight. There had many many attempts or reported attempts on the Presidents life and this was not the first time this team had been dispatched. In fact they thought it was all, BULL. From what I did know this team did not take much stock in these reported hits on the President, because there had been many and some team members had been sent on a few) "... "How were you going to find the shooters?...". There were others assigned to the north side of the Plaza and Sergio and I to the south side of the Plaza. I have said before that the team was to find them or who they thought might be a shooter by going to the most logical places for "triangulation shooting" and 'take them out'. Now taking them out did not mean starting a fire fight, because if so many people there in the Plaza would have been killed. When I used the term, "take 'um out", was meant to get close enough to distract them and interfere with their timing, etc. (note: Keep in mind that I was not originally one of the "abort team" members. I was one of the pilots who flew the team into Dallas from Florida. I was ask, by Sergio, if I wanted to come along and see the President. I would not have been at the operational level to know anything about the planning and the who done its and the whys. This has only came about after many years of soul searching and reviewing newly released documents which came about disjointed over the years, which has caused me to also speculate as to the reasons behind the assassination. The early years of the investigation, when questioned, caused me NOT to speculate, but over the years my thoughts and comments were sometimes taken out of context and twisted to fit others speculations or opinions) I have always said that the operation was a "half-assed" affair. That, "...things were all F... up", and "nobody was where they were suppose to be"....". "Had you ever met Lee Harvey Oswald?" Yes. But not in the proper sense. Once near the house where the infamous backyard photo was taken. (a chance meeting) Some friends were shooting off fireworks in a field (or large vacant lot) across across from that house. The Dallas Police came, because of a complaint, and ask the group to stop shooting fireworks. I believed Oswald was there that day, watching. I could be wrong. But that is what I remember. On another occasion was at Nags Head North Carolina and a few months later in Hawaii while I was in "Jungle Warfare Training", near Wheeler Air Base. These were chance meetings and I did not know him only in the sense of being associated via the type operations we were in. Another time was at the Beckley Street address. As I have said before the apartment house behind the Beckley street was used as a safe house for some of the, "Dallas Cubans" who were involved in getting guns to Florida and into Cuba. Some of these boys were associated with the group known as Alpha-66 and Omega-7 and too, with the "Harlendale bunch" in south Oak Cliff, not far from the Beckley address. Oswald rented a romm in the main house. I did see Lee there a few times but he was not associated with any of the Cubans that I know off and I thought he was just a renter. I later heard that he was active at "Hensley Field in Grand Perrie Texas at the ONI naval office which was located there after moving from 'Bauckmans Lake', near Love Field airport in Dallas. "... Do you believe there were 2 Oswalds?..." I do now. But not years ago in the beginning of the investigations. I have no idea who the second one would be. If I tried to say it would only be speculations on my part. "... Did you ever meet David Ferrie?.". Yes. There was a time when most all pilots in and around south Florida knew each other in some way. It was a close knit family. The airlines were coming of age. Jet airliners were replacing piston type aircraft and the airlines were hiring many pilots, mostly old WW11 bomber pilots. In travels we all sometimes crossed paths and would do a lot of "old Hanger Flying" telling tall tales of our macho manhood and daring feats of old. I knew a lot of Eastern Airline pilots in and around Miami. Dave Farrie was one of those characters, a passing pilot much like two ships in the night. "... Did you ever consider the possibility that you were flying the assassins themselves, with only minutes to spare? ..". Yes I have. However, it has always been the attitude of the team coming out of Dallas that stops me from going there. They were very dejected and very quiet. The type attitude of someone who had failed in their mission. I have been told many times that I, " flew the Attack Team in to assassinate the President". And I have been told in the manner that it was a FACT.. No it was speculation and opinion. I have ask why can't it be that a team was sent in by others in Washington that was not part of the group who wanted the President dead? I have ask many in the Pentagon and in MI about this and most all say they were aware of various people in government that hated the President and wanted him dead. Could it be that some of those launched an operation to kill the President and others in government tried to stop it at the very last minute? Anyway, its all speculations and perhaps will never be answered either way. John Stockwell, ex-station chief in Angola Africa, had a takeon this which he called, "The Paturoan?) Guard and wrote a book about that type of Presidential protection unit, somewhat like the Roman Guard. The military industrial complex in those days was indeed a very complex organization and there was hatred on both sides of various issues which in my opinion could have been the root cause of the assassination. I believe the assassination team was launched in Texas, by special intrest groups that came together to protect their interest and that of LBJ and the Pentagon found out about the plot and did not have time to get it all together to stop it. If this was made know it the time them all black operations ongoing at the time would have been compromised. I will continue this at another time. Right now I have to go to Juarez Mexico, and will be gone for a few days on research on another matter. I am not ducking any questions, as some might claim, if I do not respond in the next few days. Thanks Kathy, Bernice, and all, for your interest in the South Knoll thread End

The most direct evidence we have concerning the windshield is photographic.... the undamaged windshield apparent in Altgens #6 and the windshield damage apparent in Altgens #7. The damage in Altgens #7 matches the location and character of both Frazier's notes and the photo he took of the windshield in the early morning hours of November 23rd. The results of Frazier's examination of the windshield is echoed in various reports from percipient witnesses including Secret Service agents who passed their fingers over the windshield to determine whether there was a perforation. All of this is very direct evidence from Noveber 22nd and 23rd and indicates the windshield was struck a glancing blow from the rear leaving a lead smear on the interior surface of the windshield. Are Altgens' photos to be disbelieved? Have they been altered? What about Frazier's photo? Was it altered or was it just faked up after the fact? Was Frazier and his crime scene search unit all part of some consiracy to hide the fact of a hole in he windshield? You say a lot about Whitaker but very little about the evidence from November 22nd and 23rd that has the most probative significance. Or does "probative significance" not matter anymore once we are in the hall of mirrors where ever widening conspiracy makes white black and black white? For starters, how about telling us what you make of Altgens #6? Josiah Thompson The real issue seems to be that there is a lot riding on a t+t hole in the windshield in the location of the *spiral nebulae*. To some in the Weldon camp, it defines conspiracy; without it, we might as well just cave in and say that LHO acted alone. So don't expect any sort of logic or objectivity. This is a matter of a fanatical religious faith, and can only be debated on that basis. I disagree. The gyrations and shenanigans and ordering of multiple windshields and all the secrecy regarding the limo would never have occurred unless there were a T&T hole in the windshield. If the windshield was undamaged, there would never have been all the secret activity regarding it. Jack: I think that is a valid point and can also be applied to other areas in reference to the assassination.

Hello Tosh: After reading this post, I ran across an analysis by Don Roberdeau that shows the direction each person in the limo was facing from about Z-140 to about Z-205. Don's graph shows that JFK was rapidly turning his head from his right to his left from Z-203 to 206. The analysis stops there. But it does suggest that JFK was in the process of looking toward his left, at that time. Not sure if Mr. Roberdeau continued the analysis until the final shot was fired. http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2508/jack...speeds07ln3.gif Thanks Brian: we are almost there. Now if that is true, what would you say the degree of movement to the left was? If we add that to the slight curve in Elm Street to the left, then how many degrees off centerline would that be as to a shot fired from the north knoll or picket fence? My point and my belief is that if that was the kill shot from the north or picket fence it would be more of a 90 degree side shot and forced the President more toward the left and into Jackie and if missed it would have perhaps hit Jackie instead.. a very risky shot at close range, at best.. Looks like Mr Roberdeau did this analysis and came to similar conclusions. That JFK was facing slightly to his Left and down at the time of the head shot. His line of sight would have been to the left side of the limo driver, and not straight ahead. Probably facing more SouthEast of the Wedge area. At that angle, a shot from the (north) Grass Knoll would be about 90' or perpendicular. And it can be argued that a shot from the South Knoll could hit the front-right of JFK. http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2185/dp...ectoriesyv5.gif The problem with a South Knoll shooter being the head shot is that the blood splatter is going Left/forward and Left /backward. So even if JFK were facing the South Knoll, it is difficult to explain how a shot from "straight-on" would cause the splatter that was seen. One view point might be a back throat shot that hit an artery, before movement to the left or while moving to the left. Or the head shot and spray could also account for the blood splatter. However, I think a good forensic expert could rule on that explanation. I believe someone did do an investigation on blood splatter sometime back. You might want to look that up and compare and see if it might fit. Thanks for your post and interest. Tosh

Hello Tosh: After reading this post, I ran across an analysis by Don Roberdeau that shows the direction each person in the limo was facing from about Z-140 to about Z-205. Don's graph shows that JFK was rapidly turning his head from his right to his left from Z-203 to 206. The analysis stops there. But it does suggest that JFK was in the process of looking toward his left, at that time. Not sure if Mr. Roberdeau continued the analysis until the final shot was fired. http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2508/jack...speeds07ln3.gif Thanks Brian: we are almost there. Now if that is true, what would you say the degree of movement to the left was? If we add that to the slight curve in Elm Street to the left, then how many degrees off centerline would that be as to a shot fired from the north knoll or picket fence? My point and my belief is that if that was the kill shot from the north or picket fence it would be more of a 90 degree side shot and forced the President more toward the left and into Jackie and if missed it would have perhaps hit Jackie instead.. a very risky shot at close range, at best..

This is the first time (that I can recall) that I've seen the picture of and the name of a man called Sergio involved somehow in the Assassination. Was he a Cuban exile? Kathy C Sergio was one of the original Castro rebels who roamed with Raul Castro on the southern section of Cuba in the fifties. Some years after Castro and 1959 he came to America and somehow got connected with Alpha-66 and later the CIA's Miami Station and later to Coral Gables at went into JM/WAVE operations. I never knew his complete name and was told by many researchers who he was, but I never believed any of them because of their motives. There is another picture of Sergio at the "Dark Horse Bar" in West Palm Beach taken by me some years later. He is not Arcacha Smith as some have claimed. He died a few years ago. He was a close friend of, "CARLOS" who saved my life in Cuba more that once. I will always protect his family as I promised him and his mother when they were both alive. And that is about all I have to say about Sergio. He was and a friend and always will be in my prayers.

Kathy C PS KATHY THE CIRCLED INFO MEN ABOVE WAS DONE BY TOSH SOME YEARS AGO IN THE CROP OF THE CANCELLARE SO THERE YOU GO WHAT DO I KNOW NADA...B KATHY THE CIRCLED WHATEVER ARE NOT OF MY DOING TO ME IN FACT I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS A LIMB I AM POSTING SOME OF WHAT HAS BEEN GATHERED DOWN THROUGH THE YEARS HOPEFULLY SOME MAY BRING FURTHER INFORMATION ABOUT AS IT MAY POSSIBLY JAR SOME PEOPLES MEMORIES...AND PERK UP OTHERS THINKING CAPS..TO STEP IN WITH THEIR INFORMATION..SO MUCH HAS BEEN LOST OVER THE YEARS AS WEB SITES FALTERED OTHERS BOUGHT UP AND THE WORK DISAPPEARED SOME DELIBERATELY IMO...SO I TRIED TO GATHER AS MUCH AS I COULD RE THIS INFO HOPING SOME DAY IT MAY HELP BRING SOMETHING TO LIGHT ALONG WITH THE VERY THOROUGH AND GOOD WORK OF DOUG AND ALSO TOSH'S WHO HAS TRIED MANY TIMES TO GET HIS OUT FOR ALL.SO SAVE WHAT YOU CAN,IF INTERESTED EVENTUALLY IT IS GONE AND NEVER SEEN AGAIN THIS AREA HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO ME ONE OF SUCH... .B I'm glad you posted those photos. Now maybe we can find out what they actually show. This is a very interesting thread. Kathy C Kathy: Perhaps I can help, if I can: The shadow of the tree on the south knoll near the steps is the shadow of the tree and its fork. Some have mistook that shadow as the legs of a person, which are not in portion to the body of a person and I never said that shadow was a person. In fact I have always said the opposite. However what is shown is to the right and slightly to the left and of a lighter contrast and shows the legs and upper body of one figure. The lighter areas are the torso and the hands and face. The other figure is behind the shadow of the fork tree and only small parts are shown on the ground shadow of the tree. They are part of a leg and part of a hand or arm. Some years ago when the photo was first released I was asked about it and told that the photo proved that we were not there as I had stated to the FBI some years before. Sometime later, Tom Wilson was suppose to do work on that photo. I was told by others that he had found two people in the shadows and another above the truck in the south parking lot. Years went by and nothing further came forward as to Tom Wilson's work except a bunch of talk and no substance.

Officer J.C. White was stationed on the west side of the underpass over Elm, behind the railroad workers on the east side. From his advantage point he could have seen anyone behind the wedged banister on the south end. But he testified that a train blocked his view to the east (and to the south) during the shooting, when there was no train till minutes later. He must have had a pretty strong reason to risk being charged with perjury about the train. (But the WC of course was perfectly satisfied with his story.) Thanks Ron. I too had a problem with Whites statements as to the train crossing. Some years after the assassination, when Congressman Thomas Downing had asked me about the statements of a "Dallas Police Officer", (no name given) I was told by some on that staff that a train was moving over the underpass at the time of the assassination. I made the statement to them that there was no train at the time the shots were fired on the underpass. That was before the HSCA was formed and before Richard Sprig? or Gonzalos came on board However, that was not incorporated into my statements at the time and I was discredited. (note: that was long before the pictures of Delay Plaza and its south side was released) Its been my experience that sometimes people do not listen to what is really being said, or read what has really been written, because they have their own preconceive ideas as to what really happened and do not want to be diverted into reality or admit they were wrong.., or maybe for other reasons of which is known only to them.

Tosh, I was not referring to railroad workers, who were on the east side of the underpass and certainly could not have seen a south knoll shooter behind the winged east wedge. I was referring to police officer White. I would have to go look to be sure, but I believe from memory that it's a pretty wide underpass and that a person standing where White was on the west side of the underpass over Elm could see someone behind the east winged banister at the south end. Ron: Perhaps so. However, most of the people who were on the railroad did cross over to watch the Limo speed off to Parkland and were focused on that rather than looking south. If officer White was stationed on the west side of the overpass before the shooting, I too believe he should have seen a shooter stationed in that wing, that is IF he had reason to look in that direction. When the shots were fired, I also first looked toward the north knoll, because that is where all the activity was moving to and focused on. The sounds that day were coming from everywhere and with different tones, echos or whatever. It was the feeling of a shot near us and from which I thought came to our left almost over our heads which caused me to focus on the south knoll at the south side of the underpass. However, if there was another shooter in the parking lot, then that shooter would not have been seen from the west side of the underpass, because that area is much lower that the railroad overpass. And too, that brings to question; when did the shooter get into position in the "wedge" and how long was he there? Over the years I have pointed out my thoughts and that is where I put the shooter, because that to me would have been the most logical place for a trained sniper to place himself. Perhaps there was no one there in the wedge. Perhaps, he (or they) were in the west end of the south parking lot and we missed him or them earlier. That is one reason, as I have told many over the years; I hate to speculate, because speculations soon-- in time-- become facts..example."you said he was there". None the less, I do believe that a sniper was placed there. I believe that there were two shooters in the south part of Delay Plaza near the railroad tracks. I believe that they were not seen or noticed at the time and to me that is as valid as any other theory. However, because I was there, I am not allowed the luxury of those kinds of speculations. Thanks Ron... good talking with you again... Tosh

At the moment of impact, which way was the Presidents head turned.., and too was his body leaning to the left? Can anyone figure out the degree line of sight of the fatal head shot taking into account the slight curve in Elm street to the south and the leaning of the President to his left and the head turn and tell me what those degrees mean and how it effects the line of sight of a north knoll picket fence shot?