Evan Burton

People:

1. 9/11 discussion belongs in the 9/11 sub-forum. Posts which discuss 9/11 and distract from the purpose of this thread will be moved to the 9/11 forum.

2. Please be civil! We'll be monitoring the thread.

They still haven't taken over the US / world / whatever, so I still call this a load of bunkum.

Hi Michael - best of luck with book!

• The driver shot JFK. (the late William Cooper)
  
• The Beatles were designed and sent to the U.S. by the British Psychological Warfare Division, to undermine the morals of American teenagers. (Lyndon LaRouche)
  
• Christ's Crucifixion was staged. (Hugh Schonfield) Christ eloped with Mary Magdalene, and one or both of them fled to France to raise their family. (Baigent/Leigh/Lincoln)
  
• Christ and his disciples were a magic-mushroom cult. (Dead Sea Scrolls scholar John Allegro)
  
• HIV/AIDS was created in a lab.
  
• HIV does not cause AIDS.
  
• Man never landed on the moon. It's not even possible. But there is an alien base there. (see Wikipedia; for an artful and very funny parody of how these theories can be patched together from unrelated material, watch the mockumentary Dark Side of the Moon)
  
• The Zapruder film is entirely fake, even though it contradicts the findings of the Warren Commission. (Jim Fetzer)
  
• Stephen King killed John Lennon. (Steve Lightfoot)
  
• WWII was staged. It never really happened. The Illuminati employed elaborate special effects, stage magic, and phony journalism to scare the world into pacifism. (Donald Holmes)
  
• Queen Elizabeth I was a man. The real Elizabeth died as a child.
  
• George H.W. Bush was really George Scherff Sr., a Nazi sent to destroy America as a teenager and adopted by Prescott Bush (Scherff was also an assistant to Nikola Tesla, and stole all Tesla's inventions after he was murdered by Otto Skorzeny and Reinhard Gehlen). Hitler was still alive in Montana in 1997, and Josef Mengele is keeping himself alive and youthful with a regimen of hormones and cannibalism. Oh, and Curious George was inspired by a young George Scherff Jr.; that's probably why Alan J. Shalleck was murdered by two men he met through a gay sex network one day before the movie premiered. (this information comes from a man named Eric Berman, who claims he heard it straight from his girlfriend's dad, Otto Skorzeny, in Florida during the late '90s. Skorzeny died in Madrid in 1975.)
  
• One promoter of the Scherff-Bush story adds that Josef Mengele was the real Zodiac, the Boston Strangler(s), and the anthrax letter mailer. (http://www.thebushconnection.com/)
  
• The 1939 War of the Worlds radio broadcoast was a psychological warfare study funded by C.D. Jackson on behalf of the Rockefeller Foundation, designed to find out how Americans would react to an enemy invasion. Funny... in a trailer for his mockumentary F is for Fake, Orson Welles did say the WoW broadcast had "secret sponsors". (Daniel Hopsicker)
  
• A really old one that just won't die: Jews drink the blood and eat the flesh of Gentile children during Passover. Some Catholics still revere the relics of Medieval child saints supposedly slaughtered and devoured by Jews.
  
• The doomed Franklin Expedition was sent to the Arctic not only to find the Northwest Passage, but to secretly investigate UFO sightings that had been reported since the 1700s. The men were captured, experimented upon, and eaten by giant aliens. (Jeffrey Blair Latta)
  
• Hitler and some associates escaped to the Arctic in a submarine, to live with super-advanced aliens who reside within the hollow earth. (This story originated with Edward Bulwer-Lytton's novel The Coming Race, was treated as fact by the pre-Nazi Vril Society, was bolstered by the forged "secret diary" of Admiral Byrd, and was adopted by the likes of Ernst Zundel)
  
• Denver International Airport was built expressly to conceal a vast underground complex, headquarters of the New World Order elite. Clues are hidden in the airport's peace-themed mural.
  
• Scientology: Billions of years ago the intergalactic overlord Xenu used a film to brainwash our souls ("Thetans") into believing in the world's major religions, which he invented.
  
• Gnosticism: The entire material world is an evil trap created by the imposter God of the Bible.
  
• Nation of Islam: White people were created in a lab.
  
• Jesuits sank the Titanic to kill some of the world's richest, most powerful Jews.
  
• The early Middle Ages (614-911 A.D.) never occurred. Everything that supposedly happened during those years was either a misunderstanding, an event from a different era, or an outright lie - Charlemagne, for instance, is a fictional figure. And we are actually living in the 1700s. (Herbert Illig's phantom time hypothesis)
  
• Shortly before he left office, Bill Clinton secretly signed into law the National Economic Security and Reformation Act (NESARA). This act would have completely restructured the U.S. government by - among other things - forgiving all personal credit card debt and mortgages, abolishing the IRS, restoring constitutional law, and somehow ensuring world peace - but the Supreme Court placed a gag order on it, and threatened death to any government official who breathed word of its existence. NESARA activists around the world are agitating to get the act announced and instituted.
  
• Aspartame, flouride, genetically modified foods, and vaccines are used specifically to keep us sick and open to suggestion, and/or as part of a secret depopulation plan designed by the world's elite.
  
• Atlanta child murder theories: Victims were used for CDC research into Interferon; KKK Klansmen posed as cops to wipe out young black men (Dick Gregory); white scientists needed the boys' foreskins to produce a cure for cancer and/or a youth serum. (Dick Gregory again)
  
• Jeffrey Dahmer was an actor hired by the Ambrosia Chocolate company to pose as a cannibal killer so no one would object to the factory being torn down and another one built with illegal tax breaks (posted by "manoftruth" on online forums devoted to Rush and Bon Jovi, along with rants on Wicca and Jews; his name might be Mark Zahn, but who knows?).
  And here's a fun one: By combining two separate conspiracy theories, you can turn Hitler into Jack the Ripper!
  Theory #1: Prince Eddy, Duke of Clarence, faked his death to move to Germany and become Adolph Hitler.
  Theory #2: Prince Eddy, Duke of Clarence (and/or Freemasons acting on his behalf) was Jack the Ripper.
  Hence, Prince Eddy might have killed several prostitues, faked his own death, then resurfaced in Austria as Hitler.
  

http://swallowingthecamel.blogspot.co.uk/2007/08/worlds-weirdeststupidest-conspiracy.html

I can't get my head around suicide; I really cannot imagine any situation where I would want to take my own life, except for the case of euthanasia.

Jones is a mental unbalanced nut case

Oh you are far too kind with that assessment. Calling him a FITH wacko is understating the case.

That the worst behavour by troops was the norm and not the exception; the implication that the majority of servicmen were murders: "Turse’s book shows that the barrel was rotten through and through. It discredits the “aberration” school once and for all."

I find the conclusion abhorrent and an insult to the many US ground troops who fought in the Vietnam conflict.

This is very good; I encourage all to watch. It makes most excellent points.

Steven,

You are on moderation. That does not mean that mods have to review your posts in any set time frame. It means they review them when able and release them if compliant.

If it takes three or more days for your posts to be approved then that's tough. They'll be reviewed when they are reviewed.

The message here is don't get put on moderation in the first place.

Ah! So you are an anti-vaxxer as well Steven? Or do I misunderstand?

Steven Gaal placed on indefinite moderation for making repeated personal attacks against another member.

Steven,

You have been warned about making personal attacks against other members. You are on moderation until further notice.

On another forum we were discussing the probable crews if Apollo 18, 19 and 20 had flown.

A member pointed out that the crew for Apollo 18 (assuming the 17 / 18 crew swap had not taken place due to the cancellation of 18 - 20) would have been Dick Gordon (CDR), Vance Brand (CMP) and Jack Schmitt (LMP).

On that mission, they would have been the 13th Apollo crew (including Apollo 1) and Gordon would have been the 13th moonwalker. Add to it that "Richard Gordon" has 13 letters......

Spooky.

Steven,

1. Posting like that is consider shouting. If I see something like that again, I will ignore it.

2. All 9/11 threads were moved onto the sub-forum dedicated to 9/11.

3. No posts have been deleted,no images removed.

4. There is a limit of five images per post but due to a software bug, this seems to be limited to three. I have a vague memory that it was fixed but could be wrong.

5. The long list of names, etc, provides absolutely no information regarding what posts you claim have been deleted, etc.

I see that the DPF have now banned Jim Fetzer because they disagree with what he says.

You won't see that here. I disagree with most - if not all - of what Jim Fetzer asserts on various issues but as long as he states his beliefs within the Forum rules, he will always be allowed to state them.

If people disagree with what others say, there will be rebuttals. If people agree with what a poster says, there may be posts of support. Others may simply lurk, read and consider.

I think I'm right in saying that this Forum was established not to tell you what to believe, but rather to allow all voices to be heard - in a civil manner - and let people decide for themselves what to believe.

TO ALL PARTICIPANTS: Please be careful if your decide to assert something is a "lie"; if you decide to use this term, you must make it clear that you are saying that the originator of the statement, not the poster, knowingly made a falsehood. Saying a Forum member lied is unacceptable; saying anyone else lied is tolerated but preferably not be used unless you show evidence that they have knowing and deliberatly made an incorrect statement.

If you believe a Forum member has knowing and deliberatly made a misrepresentation of the truth, then contact a Moderator with your proof of such. If such evidence is conclusive, the Forum management may permit like terms to be used.

Sorry - that was me. I've been cleaning the forum and found out I was deleteing threads! Luckily, they can be restored and I'm doing that now.

Matt,

Please don't introduce facts into a convicted viewpoint; it tends to confuse people.

Thanks!

(VTIC)

(3) The plane was exceptional:

The King Air A-100 is the Rolls Royce of small aircraft;

There were no maintenance problems with the plane;

I disagree with what I consider to be your overly generous praise for the aircraft, but I don't disagree that the King Airs are a good aircraft with a good reputation.

But so what? Is it your contention that if I was driving a Rolls Royce and was involved in a car accident, I could not possibly be at fault because I was driving a Rolls? Is it your contention that it is impossible to mishandle a good aircraft?

The NTSB was unable to bring it down in simulations.

No. Again that is just plain wrong and quite misleading. Once more from the accident report:

Safety Board investigators also planned and executed flight simulations at Flight Safety International (FSI) using a King Air C90B simulator.

These simulator tests were conducted to determine whether the airplane's flightpath and time histories, as shown by the radar data during the final approach, could be matched or approximated with and without simulated airframe icing and which configurations and control inputs were required to match the data. To conduct the test, the accident airplane.s weight and CG values (about 10,500 pounds and 184 inches, respectively) were scaled to equivalent values for the C90B.

Several tests were performed starting at 3,500 feet and descending to 1,800 feet to try to match the final approach descent of the accident airplane as shown by the radar data. An additional test was conducted starting at 13,000 feet and descending to 3,500 feet as the airplane was vectored onto the approach course. For simulation purposes, the airplane.s descent from 3,500 feet was broken down into three time periods, each with linear approximations of vertical speed and airspeed decay based on the radar data. During the tests, the landing gear was extended just after the airspeed decreased below the maximum gear extension speed of 156 KCAS, which occurred as the accident airplane was descending through 2,200 feet. Various engine power and pitch control inputs and simulated icing effects were used to try to match the radar data.

The tests conducted without simulated airframe icing showed that the flightpath and speed of the accident airplane, as indicated by the radar data, could be reasonably matched making minor pitch control inputs and engine power reductions. The stall warning occurred during these tests between 81 and 84 KCAS. During the tests, increasing the power quickly resulted in an increase in airspeed and no further stall warnings.

The tests conducted with light to moderate simulated airframe icing showed that the flightpath and speed of the airplane, as indicated by the radar data, could also be reasonably matched.

However, occasional use of the deicer boots was required, and the engine power settings were significantly higher between the boot cycles than they were during the tests conducted without simulated airframe icing. Tests conducted with heavy icing required frequent cycling of the deicer boots, and the engine power settings often exceeded the power limits shown on the cockpit gauges.

(Emphasis mine)

(2) The pilots were well-qualified:

The principal pilot has an Air Transport license;

He had passed his FAA flight check two days earlier;

The plane only required one pilot and there were two.

Well, there was some doubt regarding his competence regarding instrument flight however you are correct: they were qualified and current for the flight.

That being said, numerous other qualified, current and experienced crews have made fatal errors.

There is a lot of bad data from familiar sources here.

(1) The weather was fine:

Other planes landed there with no problems;

I have photos taken within an hour of the crash;

I was there and the weather was fine for flying;

No Jim, that is not correct. Let's look at the factual data. From the accident report:

According to Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) records, the pilot called the Princeton Automated Flight Service Station (AFSS) for an abbreviated weather briefing about 0716. The AFSS specialist informed the pilot that AIRMETs [airmens meteorological information] for IFR and icing conditions were current over the entire route. He added that IFR conditions were reported throughout central and northern Minnesota and that cloud conditions near STP were reported as broken between 800 and 1,000 feet and overcast between 1,300 and 1,600 feet. He also stated that cloud conditions at EVM were reported as scattered at 1,000 feet and overcast at 2,000 feet and that visibility was reported as 4 statute miles in light snow. He added that between STP and EVM the cloud ceilings were reported between 300 and 600 feet and visibility was reported as between 1 to 4 statute miles in light snow and mist. The pilot then asked for freezing level information and weather information for DLH in case he had to land there as an alternate to EVM. The AFSS specialist indicated that at that time, DLH was reporting an overcast cloud ceiling of 500 feet and visibility of 2 statute miles in light snow and mist. He added that the terminal forecast indicated an overcast cloud ceiling of 500 to 900 feet and visibility of 1 to 3 statute miles in rain or snow. About 0719, the pilot stated, "you know what[,] I don.t think I.m going to take this flight".

Why would he ask about an alternate if the weather conditions were "fine"? What else was said about the weather?

The other King Air pilot, who had just arrived at STP from the DLH area, indicated that the accident pilot asked him about the weather conditions he had encountered on his flight and then asked him if he would mind sharing this information with the Senator. The other King Air pilot indicated that he told the Senator that the weather was at minimums, but he was sure the pilots could handle the flight.

(emphasis mine)

What about during the flight?

About 1004, the copilot contacted the DLH approach control south radar controller indicating that he had the current EVM weather and that he would like the VOR runway 27 approach. The controller advised, .expect vectors for the approach. The copilot acknowledged the transmission. About 1006, the controller asked the flight crew what they intended to do in the event of a missed approach. The pilot responded, "Well let.s hope we don't have that; if we do have a missed approach we'll go up and circle and figure this out[;] I'll hold at the VOR..."

A lot of concern shown by both controllers and flight crew when you claim the weather was "fine". Now lets look at the instrument approach plate for the VOR:

That tells us that the minima for the approach was 1840 feet AMSL, or 471 feet AGL. If they were not visual by that time, a missed approach is mandatory. What were the actual conditions?

The 0954 weather observation from the automated weather observing system (AWOS)-3, which is located at EVM about 2 miles northwest from the accident site, included a reported visibility of 2 1/2 statute miles in light snow and a sky condition of 400 feet scattered, 700 feet overcast. Visibility of 1 statute mile was required to execute the VOR runway 27 approach.

So they were breaking out from OVERCAST at 700 feet AGL, giving them just 229 feet to visually aquire the runway and make a decision to land. At a recorded descent rate of 1400 feet per minute, that is just 10 seconds. And remember it was SCATTERED at 400 feet AGL so there was a good chance they may not have been visual at 700 feet nor at the MDA of 471 feet. Thatb is quite probable considering that at 1034, just over 10 mins after the accident the AWOS was reporting overcast at 400 feet AGL!

No Jim, the facts show that the weather was FAR from fine.

Mike, I get the impression by your posts that you are confusing me with a moderator, which I am not. As for defending you from Lee Farley, that presupposes that I am aware of what exactly you refer to, which I do not. I appreciate the goodwill that you have expressed towards me, and yes I do understand the world will not end on the 50th anniversary. I will continue to post here, albeit not as much as previously, because I have my own projects that I am at work on. Grateful for the kind words expressed by Bernice, Don Jeffries, Dawn and Mike.

I would like to say that I do not consider myself "special," and am honest enough to admit my desire for the research community

to have unanimity is, naive. But one can always hope. One way I am not different from the rest of the forum members who believe in a conspiracy in which there were elements of our own government involved, is I will never rest until what happened that day, is understood as it happened, although a great deal of that has already been done. My own research leads me to believe as of this moment there are a lot of I's that need dotting, and T's to be crossed.

And the thing I like about you, Robert, is that even if you disagree with another person's viewpoint you still respect their right to hold those views.

Robert, I have been saying this since I first entered the critical community. It really is embarrassing to see the lack of unity in our shared cause. And I am not just referring to JFK but the bigger picture.

Exactly. As an outsider, I am perplexed by the infighting that goes on. After all, you do all agree that Kennedy was not shot by LHO, don't you?

When I see the sniping and disunity, it gives me the impression that "these people don't know what they are talking about". That is NOT what you want to convey to people who never have researched this field before. What you do want to send is the picture of a group of people working together for a common cause.

The current state of affairs does nothing to convince me of the validity of anyones theories.

Wow! Commisar Drago is attacking everyone now. Fellow founders have tried to talk sense to him but he treats them with distain. I used "train wreck in slow motion" as a metaphor but it is not far from reality; perhaps it might be more accurate to say we are watching the onset of a mental disorder / breakdown.