Evan Burton

Thanks!

Hope you enjoy yourself here, and that it proves to be a great resource in your search.

Like I said: heads I win, tails you lose.

Steven,

If (when, as far as I am concerned) you are proven wrong, will you admit it? Or will a story be concocted to explain why your prediction did not come true?

I think Tom is right; it doesn't matter what you say here as long as you say it within the rules. The value of your posts is determined by other members who will judge it by their own standards. Popular, unpopular, correct, incorrect, truth, lies... we don't determine that. If it is within our rules then your posts can battle it out in the arena with everyone else.

Yeah; nothing happens when people make predictions and they look upon that as proof their prediction were right.

Heads I win, tails you lose.

Steven,

How long without "army takeover" will it take to convince you that you are wrong?

Joe,

How much infoluence do you think the State of the Union had? It was obviously scheduled for the fllght but how much influence on the launch date do you think the administration had?

Robert,

Yep, it was me. As you and others have pointed out, some members of the DPF (and I stress only some) enjoy slagging off at myself and others, as well as telling completely inaccurate stories regarding their departure and subsequent events (of which they know full well). I get sick of such lies being told about me.

It was a childish act on my part, a "prank" which should not have been done, and members here have the right to expect better of me.

For this, I apologise to the members here.

To the ex-member concerned, I give no apology; my opinion of them stands.

Steven,

There are no indications in the forum records that anyone moved any post of yours. Perhaps you should apologise to Bill for calling him "immoral".

Complaint thread started by Steven Gaal moved from "Forum Developments and Communications" into the complaints thread of Political Conspiracies.

Thread moved from Forum Information & Development to the Complaints thread in Conspiracy Theories.

I've gone through all the logs and there are no indications that any admin nor moderator moved your post.

Joe,

A couple of things further about the decision to launch.

Firstly, the traditional approach under Apollo was to prove that the spacecraft and booster were ready for launch; by CHALLENGER it was said that people had to prove they weer NOT ready to launch. Do you think was a gradual, corporate change or was it a more rapid change due to other factors?

Related to this was the management change in the NASA centres. I heard that some centre directors, it was almost a climate of fear, that you did not speak out. Do you know anything about that and if so, could you expand?

Webb told me that after the Apollo 204 file he did two things. First on the day of the astronauts funeral at Arlington he called the head of North American Rockwell in his office and said he would either sign a new contract to finish the Apollo program or Webb would switch to another company. Once he got Rockwell to sign Webb resigned because he felt he would be a political distraction. Paine was forced out by Nixon.

Thanks, but he left move than a year and a half after that tragedy but only 4 days before the launch of the 1st manned Apollo mission, odd?

Perhaps, but Webb knew his days were numbered. He believed Nixon would win and Webb would not remain under a new administration. I'll have to research where I heard this (and thus it may not be correct), but IIRC, Webb went to see Johnson about resigning; he wanted to co-ordinate a date in the future with the President. When he spoke to LBJ though, the President accepted his resignation on the spot... which was not Webb's plan, so he ended up leaving earlier than planned. He ccept (rather than make) what was probably the boldest decision in the history of Apollo, even greater than Apollo 11.... the flight of Apollo 8.

They also ignored suggestions of a rescue mission prior to retry.

Hmm - I'm not sure that would be possible but let's leave that for discussion about COLUMBIA in another thread; this is about your book.

The book DAY OF DECEIT outlines how the United States provoked the attack on Pearl Harbor, and was fully aware that the attack was forthcoming. This has obvious relevance to the Kennedy assassination, 9/11, and other incidents in which the full truth of the matter was hidden from the American people.

What I have uploaded are documents now in the public domain, the memos related to this affair that shows the government foreknowledge, contained in the book.

You will find it at the following URL:

http://www.krusch.com/jfk

It is in the "key exhibits" folder.

Here's my Pearl Harbor Story: Ed Hill - Cape May's Forgotten Hero

The Sortie of the Nevada at Pearl Harbor -

USS Nevada Sortie at Pearl Harbor

Thanks Bill - it's good to make sure people know of the heroism shown by people on that day.

Also, before CHALLENGER there were still people from the Apollo days, people like Gene Kranz and John Young. They were deeply affected by events like the Apollo 1; were they ignored? Were they involved at all?

What about after CHALLENGER and the COLUMBIA disaster? Do you think that NASA learned from 1986 and made other mistakes, or did they simply repeat the mistakes of the past?

Prescription for Disaster: From the Glory of Apollo to the Betrayal of the Shuttle

By Joe Trento (with Susan Trento)

As a space buff, this book was a 'must-read' for me and I was impressed by the depth and honesty of its content. Joe has kindly accepted my invitation to discuss the book. It examines at the CHALLENGER disaster and the reasons why it occured.

***********************

Joe, as you discovered during your research, there are three general areas which were responsible for the disaster: technical, political and organisational. I'd like to start with the later.

The NASA most people remember was a dynamic organisation from the 1960s, the group that landed men on the Moon, that reacted to save the Apollo 13 astronauts, that managed to develop a plan to save the Skylab station in less than 14 days.

By the mid-1980s it was another government agency interested in its own survival, perhaps above other considerations.

What happened? Did the people of NASA not care?

Why are there two over lapping threads on 7/7?

Primarily I haven't bothered to look at them and see if they need to be merged.

I wasn't really sure where this should go. This seemed as good a place as any. This is for Steven.

Kiss Hank’s Ass

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

John: “Hi! I’m John, and this is Mary.”

Mary: “Hi! We’re here to invite you to come kiss Hank’s ass with us.”

Me: “Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who’s Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?”

John: “If you kiss Hank’s ass, He’ll give you a million dollars; and if you don’t, He’ll kick the xxxx out of you.”

Me: “What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?”

John: “Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can’t until you kiss His ass.”

Me: “That doesn’t make any sense. Why…”

Mary: “Who are you to question Hank’s gift? Don’t you want a million dollars? Isn’t it worth a little kiss on the ass?”

Me: “Well maybe, if it’s legit, but…”

John: “Then come kiss Hank’s ass with us.”

Me: “Do you kiss Hank’s ass often?”

Mary: “Oh yes, all the time…”

Me: “And has He given you a million dollars?”

John: “Well no. You don’t actually get the money until you leave town.”

Me: “So why don’t you just leave town now?”

Mary: “You can’t leave until Hank tells you to, or you don’t get the money, and He kicks the xxxx out of you.”

Me: “Do you know anyone who kissed Hank’s ass, left town, and got the million dollars?”

John: “My mother kissed Hank’s ass for years. She left town last year, and I’m sure she got the money.”

Me: “Haven’t you talked to her since then?”

John: “Of course not, Hank doesn’t allow it.”

Me: “So what makes you think He’ll actually give you the money if you’ve never talked to anyone who got the money?”

Mary: “Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you’ll get a raise, maybe you’ll win a small lotto, maybe you’ll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street.”

Me: “What’s that got to do with Hank?”

John: “Hank has certain ‘connections.’”

Me: “I’m sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game.”

John: “But it’s a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don’t kiss Hank’s ass He’ll kick the xxxx out of you.”

Me: “Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him…”

Mary: “No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank.”

Me: “Then how do you kiss His ass?”

John: “Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl’s ass, and he passes it on.”

Me: “Who’s Karl?”

Mary: “A friend of ours. He’s the one who taught us all about kissing Hank’s ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times.”

Me: “And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?”

John: “Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here’s a copy; see for yourself.”

From the Desk of Karl

1. Kiss Hank’s ass and He’ll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
   
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
   
3. Kick the xxxx out of people who aren’t like you.
   
4. Eat right.
   
5. Hank dictated this list Himself.
   
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
   
7. Everything Hank says is right.
   
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
   
9. Don’t use alcohol.
   
10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
    
11. Kiss Hank’s ass or He’ll kick the xxxx out of you.
    

Me: “This appears to be written on Karl’s letterhead.”

Mary: “Hank didn’t have any paper.”

Me: “I have a hunch that if we checked we’d find this is Karl’s handwriting.”

John: “Of course, Hank dictated it.”

Me: “I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?”

Mary: “Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people.”

Me: “I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the xxxx out of people just because they’re different?”

Mary: “It’s what Hank wants, and Hank’s always right.”

Me: “How do you figure that?”

Mary: “Item 7 says ‘Everything Hank says is right.’ That’s good enough for me!”

Me: “Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up.”

John: “No way! Item 5 says ‘Hank dictated this list himself.’ Besides, item 2 says ‘Use alcohol in moderation,’ Item 4 says ‘Eat right,’ and item 8 says ‘Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.’ Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too.”

Me: “But 9 says ‘Don’t use alcohol.’ which doesn’t quite go with item 2, and 6 says ‘The moon is made of green cheese,’ which is just plain wrong.”

John: “There’s no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you’ve never been to the moon, so you can’t say for sure.”

Me: “Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock…”

Mary: “But they don’t know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese.”

Me: “I’m not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow ‘captured’ by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn’t make it cheese.”

John: “Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!”

Me: “We do?”

Mary: “Of course we do, Item 7 says so.”

Me: “You’re saying Hank’s always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That’s circular logic, no different than saying ‘Hank’s right because He says He’s right.’”

John: “Now you’re getting it! It’s so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank’s way of thinking.”

Me: “But…oh, never mind. What’s the deal with wieners?”

Mary: She blushes.

John: “Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It’s Hank’s way. Anything else is wrong.”

Me: “What if I don’t have a bun?”

John: “No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong.”

Me: “No relish? No Mustard?”

Mary: She looks positively stricken.

John: He’s shouting. “There’s no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!”

Me: “So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?”

Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears.”I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la.”

John: “That’s disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that…”

Me: “It’s good! I eat it all the time.”

Mary: She faints.

John: He catches Mary. “Well, if I’d known you were one of those I wouldn’t have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the xxxx out of you I’ll be there, counting my money and laughing. I’ll kiss Hank’s ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater.”

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

FWIW, IMHO Steven's obvious religious zealoty negates any value his posts might have.

Steven,

A suggestion you can choose to use or discard as you please.

People are sometimes put off by large posts containing 'walls of text'. You might like to consider choosing a pertinent quote from the source and posting that with a link to the original article, etc. Alternatively, you can post a summary of the article's content in your own words, and then post the link.

A lot of wise words there, Chris.

I think warnings will come, along with more education of the public. When looking at the nutrition details of a product, you can't just go "Oh! Low fat - must be good!".

You have to look at all the ingredients: sodium, sugar, fat, etc, as well as the total energy value. So many foodstuffs which are marketed as "healthy" are anything but.