J. Raymond Carroll

Whatever you do, do NOT click on this link! http://www.amazon.com/Harvey-Oswalds-Cold-Assassination-Reinvestigated-ebook/dp/B00IXOA5ZK

Good idea Greg: Do not click on Lee Oswald's Cold War

because Lee knew NOTHING about the assassination.

I have no doubt he doesn't order his followers to behave the way they do.

So then give John a break and give the ad hominems a break.

The Harvey/Lee theory is dead and gone, and ad hominems do nothing to help,

except show your want of logic.

Jeese... can't even please you when I AGREE with you...

Bugliosi groupie? Wow. That's low.

Comparing Charles Manson to John Armstrong... ???

You've lost me son.

I think you owe John Armstrong a public apology.

Manson was a nice guy who pleaded he himself killed no one, nor ordered any of his followers to - so I have no qualms about accepting what you say.

Why am I not surprised at ANOTHER meaningless response from the man DOWN UNDER!

And a Bugliosi groupie, to boot!

The H & L theory has all the same hallmarks as the Warren Commission.

Started with a predetermined outcome

Dissent within is not allowed

Alternative explanations are not countenanced

Witnesses were prepped

Psyop techniques utilized through particular use of language to help prop up and sell their alternative universal realities

Hold on Greg, Let's not resort to defamation of character.

John Armstrong is just guilty of some very sloppy and TENDENTIOUS research, as are hundreds of others.

I don't know who all his followers are or what they may be up to, because I have generally ignored the

Harvey/Lee controversy since 1996, and it may be that some of your characterizations are meant to apply to them and not to John himself. But I did get to know John Armstrong himself and I think I am old and experienced enoughto say that John is a person of good moral character and a helluva nice all-round guy. He believes what he says and writes even though, sadly, most of it is misguided.

So by all means critique his theory, but please do not try to defame his character.

That makes 9-4.

I saw John Armstrong's first presentation of his Harvey/Lee theory at a Third Decade Conference in Fredonia,

in 1996 (Peter Dale Scott was the keynote speaker).

I was astonished at the sloppy way Armstrong handled evidence and gave his theory no credence whatsoever.

I got to know John a little bit, and found him extremely likable, but I still think his theory is for the birds.

So I guess that makes the vote 10-4.

That's a big 10-4!

But you think Oswald knew nothing about the CIA operation following him.

Yes Paul, I have seen no evidence --in Newman's book or elsewhere-- that he knew or suspected that he was being monitored by the CIA.

Do you also think he knew nothing about FBI or ONI?

He was well aware of the FBI's interest, and he resented it. In 1962 the FBI interviewed him twice, decided he was harmless,

and closed its file. In 1963 Hosty opened a file on Marina and came to the Paine house on two occasions, if I am recalling correctly. Lee was angry and felt that Hosty was harassing his wife, and he wrote the note that Hosty famously destroyed.

I must admit that the involvement of ONI is news to me. Could you please elaborate?

[Edit} Since posting the above I remembered the interview in New Orleans by FBI agent Quigley, which Newman discusses. According to Officer Martello, the interview was conducted at Lee's request, something I find hard to believe. Apparently he told Quigley that he was passing out the FPCC handbills as "a patriotic duty."

Also, do you think, as Mr. Simpich suggests, that Angleton's Oswald project was diverted by operatives working out of Miami CIA station without Angleton's knowledge?

I am not familiar with Bill Simpich's thoughts on this issue.

I believe Lee Oswald knew nothing about the assassination and had nothing to do with any intelligence agency

James Wilcott's HSCA testimony:

http://harveyandlee.net/Wilcott/Wil_full.htm

Thank you David. Wilcott's testimony is good for a laugh, especially his claim that Marina was a secret agent.

Of course the HSCA did not believe him, and neither did John Newman, who had access to a great deal more

of the CIA's secrets than the HSCA did.

Newman's book proves beyond doubt that the CIA, namely Angleton's group, was watching Lee very carefully

over a long period leading up to the assassination, but when he writes "Oswald was probably involved in CIA operations" he should have added "he was involved without his knowledge."

https://books.google.com/books?id=17AtAgAAQBAJ&pg=PR12&lpg=PR12&dq=james+wilcott+hsca+oswald+cia&source=bl&ots=Y20O_fh_TV&sig=pngoZ-pPUWGN56OAcItwvVn3_I8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAmoVChMIgf3O2MKHxgIVSyCsCh0pNwCo#v=onepage&q=james%20wilcott%20hsca%20oswald%20cia&f=false

I have earlier stated that Newman's book should have been entitled The CIA Vs. Lee Oswald.

Jefferson Morley recently announced on his JFK Facts site that he would be posting a video

of Anthony Veciana's presentation at last year's AARC conference.

As some of you know, I believe Lee Oswald knew nothing about the assassination and had

nothing to do with any intelligence agency, so it follows that I never believed a word Veciana said.

I have always had the highest regard for Jefferson Morley and the extreme caution he normally

displays in approaching controversial subjects, so I was surprised that he seemed to be

endorsing the latest version of Veciana's bunch of lies.

I recently sent this message to Jeff, which is awaiting moderation before he posts it on his site:

A word of caution about Anthony Veciana. He testified under oath that Phillips was NOT Bishop. Now he says he lied under oath.

Most people will not accept the word of a self-admitted perjurer.

I would also suggest that Veciana’s revised story leads to no new evidence, an indication that it is disinformation!

Note also that Lee Oswald was in New Orleans at the time when Veciana claims he saw him in Dallas, that Veciana condoned the murder of JFK, according to his own AARC presentation, and that Veciana was convicted on Federal charges of smuggling cocaine.

All in all he is not someone the JFK research community should be standing behind, IMHO.

The HSCA (pages 156-7) did find that Jack Ruby had assistance from someone inside the police department

when he murdered Lee Oswald.

I think that is one HSCA finding that will stand the test of time.

Thank you Vince.

Just for the record, I am personally convinced that Lee Oswald knew nothing about the assassination.

One of the curious facts in the case is that there was no investigation of the people living with Lee

at the rooming-house on Beckley. I believe a few of them may have been transients. It seems he ordinarily

left his revolver in his room there, and it would have been a simple matter for one of those roomers to obtain

it, fire several rounds, keep the shells and replace the pistol without Lee ever noticing.

That would explain how Tippit's killer was able to drop 4 spent revolver shells at the scene, thus tying Lee

to the Tippit murder.

All this would have been brought out at trial by his defense lawyer, hence the plotters had to murder him

before he could speak to an attorney.

BTW, let me join the chorus of those who say that your work on the Secret Service is extremely valuable

and historic.

Sorry Vince, I am still confused about where you stand.

Harry Livingstone wrote in Killing The Truth that

"it doesn't matter whether Oswald was innocent or guilty, it doesn't even matter if he was part of the conspiracy."

Jim Di Eugenio is a Garrison groupie and, as you know, Garrison accused Lee Oswald, in open court, of carrying a rifle to the TSBD

"in furtherance of the plot" to kill Kennedy. I don't know what his latest work is that you refer to, so please specify. I would bet it is another anti-Oswald screed.

[Edit] Just for clarification, the word "Patsy" has caused great confusion. Lee Oswald said "they've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I'm just a Patsy."

He clearly meant that he was being falsely accused, and knew nothing of any crimes.

Garrison, on the other hand, took the word "Patsy" and gave it a whole new meaning. Garrison created a scenario in which Lee Oswald helped plot the assassination and carried a rifle to work in furtherance of the plot. In Garrison's scenario, Oswald agreed to take the fall for the plotters, and that was what he meant by the word "Patsy."

Please specify which meaning you attribute to the word "Patsy."

OK Vince, my old friend:

After all these years What is your position: Are you an Oswald accuser?

If so, do you accuse him of being a conspirator?

or do you accuse him of being a lone assassin?

Your reply is greatly appreciated.

Was Harry Livingstone that despised or something?

Thoughts (if you have them)?

Hi Vince:

I knew Harry fairly well over a number of years. In fact he mentions me in one of his books. My impression is that he was motivated by a strong animosity to David Lifton, and Lifton's (perfectly logical) theory that JFK's body was altered.

My problem with Harry is pretty much the same problem I have with the entire research community: In Killing Kennedy he writes,

"It doesn't matter whether Oswald was innocent or guilty. It doesn't even matter if he was part of the conspiracy."

I see much the same attitude here and everywhere else among JFK researchers. A lack of moral clarity is the reason why the JFK research community has been going nowhere.

Lee Oswald was innocent, but nobody cares.

Bump

Thanks again to Robert. There are some great books in here.

Beware, however. The Texas Connection, by Craig Zirbel, is not much of a book, as I demonstrate in this review:

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48766&relPageId=13&search=%22raymond_carroll%22

It has always been my belief that if Oswald was downstairs anywhere on those steps (or near it) at the time, other employees would have mentioned seeing him there. There are no such reports. The only such "early" reports concern him being (possibly) in a nearby storage room, a minute or two following the shooting; and those reports are (historically and legally) far more important (and potent). As I recall, they were not properly followed up by the FBI investigation (or the Warren Commission, for that matter).

DSL

5/14/15 - 4 p.m. PDT

Los Angeles, California

Greetings David:

I am surprised to read that you do not believe that Prayer Man is Lee Oswald. It corroborates your thesis in Best Evidence.

As Sean Murphy posted on that thread, Fritz testified

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement...

This testimony is supported by Fritz's notes, which records Oswald saying he was "out with Bill Shelley in front."

It is not corroborated by the FBI agents only because, I believe, they had not yet arrived when Lee made this statement.

The only time he could have been out with Shelley in front was just prior to and when JFK passed the building.

Prayer Man's position in the corner of the entrance is not a particularly good vantage point to watch the parade, so

it is unlikely that a stranger would choose it as a vantage point. As pointed out on the original Prayer Man thread

all 14 of the TSBD employees who were on the steps testified that there were no strangers on the steps, everyone was

a TSBD employee. Only one other employee bore a resemblance to Lee Oswald, and BIllie Lovelady is eliminated

as a candidate for Prayer Man by films and by his own testimony.

The images from the Darnell film may not be the best, but I submit no reasonable person can dispute that Prayer Man

does resemble Lee Oswald. Given that resemblance, given the evidence that everyone on the steps was a TSBD

employee; given the fact that no other employee except Lee Oswald qualifes as Prayer Man, and given the fundamental

rule that the burden of proof is on Lee Oswald's accusers, then I respectfully submit that he told Fritz the literal truth

when he said he had lunch out front with Bill Shelley and other employees, and saw all the excitement.

If it wasn't Lee Oswald, then who was it?

That is the question Lee Oswald's accusers now have to answer. After almost 2 years I have not heard a plausible

alternative.

You say that if he was there some employee would surely remember. As experiments and our own experience tell us,

human memory is highly fallible. As RIchard Hocking pointed out on the Prayer Man thread:

What do Joe Molina, Carl Edward Jones, Roy Edward Lewis, and Prayer Man all have in common?

No one else in the "Step Group" testified these individuals were on the steps.

Greetings everyone!

I recall reading somewhere -- years ago-- a statement by Henry Wade, made on the weekend of the assassination

(and before the intervention of Jack Ruby), to the effect that Lee Oswald would first be brought to trial on the charge

of murdering J.D. Tippit.

Alfredda Scobey points out that under Texas law the Tippit & JFK cases would have been tried in separate trials.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v1n1/v1n1scobey.pdf

The Warren Volumes contain press reports and transcripts of TV interviews from that weekend, but I have been unable

to find this statement by Wade in the Warren volumes or with a Google search.

I will be most grateful if anyone can provide a source for this statement from Henry Wade?

Fortune Favors the Bold

I am Proud to say

that I

am a longtime

member

of

the LONDOND FORUMN

hosted by

JOHN ALOYISIUS SIMKIN

WEARE about to witnessthe

Exoneration

of PRAYERMAN LEE

in STATE COURT IN TEXAS

STAY TUNED

HER MAJESTY ELIZABETH

is still sceptical

BUt PHILLIP told me

on the QT

it is bound to happen

SEZ HE

James:

Digging into

both

the JFK

and RFK murders

there are parallels

with the use

of police

I belive the plotters

used police

in both murders

to setup crime scenes,

control and destroy evidence

and later

intimidate witnesses

and bias the investigations.

Wonderful cover-up layer

and plausible cut-outs.

Notably

some of those prominent

police names

were later co-opted

to International

Aid covers

as well as

shipped/hidden

in Southeast Asia

I have suspicions

that

certain names

figured publically

in Phoenix operations too.

Talk about

to serve

and protect.

Gene

Well said

You know Gene

If you could sing

Dance

& Act

You could be

SOMEBODY!

I would love to hear more

about this

Wonderful cover-up layer

and plausible cut-outs.

Notably

some of those prominent

police names

were later co-opted

to International

Aid covers

as well as

shipped/hidden

in Southeast Asia

I have suspicions

that

certain names

figured publically

in Phoenix operations too.

Talk about

Tell us More

Kelly!

http://kennedy-photos.blogspot.com/2012/06/thumbnails.html

Enough

Irish

stuff

JFK

Sang

this

song

At

Hyannesport

http://kennedy-photos.blogspot.com/

not long

before

Dallas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-ldVj34Sfo

You

Gotta

Love

British

Humor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgjtXXIksu4

Thank you Ray

And Seamus

for reminding me

of

EDNA O'BRIAN

A

Lady

From

Clare

Adored

by

Seamus

And

Clare People

Galore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVM-tFAdADg

All roads lead

to

It's a Long Way

to

Tipperary

its a long way

to

go

Goodbye

Picalliy

Farewell

Leicster Square

So

Pack

Up

Your Troubles

Is there a doctor in the house?

Why?

Is

something

Wrong

with

you?

Well

Goodness

Gracious

Me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3A7B6qtUpU

You

May

Need

A

Dose

of

Spike

Milligan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkOAUht3G5o

Ya

Gotta love

British Humor

Everything

The

British

say

Sounds funny

to

Me

As

Famous Seamus

Keeps reminding me

It's

All

About

Delight

I gotta thank

Ray Mitchum

Like his brother

Bob

Mitchum

brings out

the best

in

Me

Logical

if you think

about it

His name is

Ray