Robert Howard

Shanet wrote:

"The failure of the Secret Service to secure the grassy knoll, the railroad overpass and the open windows along the route, along with the slooooow crawl through the Plaza point to a co-ordinated effort by govern-ment factions to eliminate the President."

Hogwash.

Read the chapter in "Ultimate Sacrifice" re how diligentlly the Secret Service worked to protect the President from a reported threat in Tampa on November 18th (just four days before Dallas). I guess the government factions decided sometime between November 18th and November 21st to relax Kennedy's protection in Dallas?

But despite the threat in Tampa, Kennedy still rode standing open in an open car. The authors of "Ultimate Sacrifice" suggest he did it to send a message to his enemies that he had no fear.

Regarding the "slow crawl" through Dallas, "Ultimate Sacrifice" reports that the JFK motorcade also had to make a very slow left turn in front of the tall Floridian hotel in Tampa (again this was done despite the reported threat of an assassination.

What is chilling, however, is that the SS did not inform the Dallas PD of the threat in Tampa a few says earlier. Nor was the incident reported to either the WC or the HSCA (again according to "Ultimate Sacrifice").

I do believe in one of those "conspiracy comments by Jack Ruby" when reporters were talking to him as he was being whisked to and fro, he said something to the effect of (referring to the assassination) "a massive conspiracy, you wouldn't believe."

If you take those comments literally, then a 'massive conspiracy,' ala either

1. CIA

2. Army Intelligence

3. FBI

4. Secret Service

5. Variations of the above, as part of one big black op, don't seem so "out of the question."

FWIW

I suppose the topic title and description say's it all, but I am trying to learn about the quote attributed to Ferrie. William Turner who I believe is invaluable as a member of this Forum, in Rearview Mirror (which I have, and think is a extremely insightful book) refers to the interview he did with Robert Depugh national leader of the notorious "Minutemen," in that segment of the book he refers to "John Morris" and then writes

"DePugh knew that in 1962 one of his "patriots" named John Morris cooked up a plot to assassinate Senator J. William Fulbright because he wasn't "voting American" (he opposed the Vietnam War). When DePugh got wind of it, after money had actually changed hands, he squelched it, he said, in order to head off a massive federal probe of his organization. In researching the article, I picked up information that a Minutemen cell in Dallas threatened to "snuff" Stanley Marcus of the upscale NiemanMarcus department store chain because he was Jewish and liberal (I called Marcus to inform him of the danger)."

My question is who quoted Ferrie as saying "Oh sure, we can

easily get Fulbright the same we got S. when he was

overseas--and nobody will ever suspect. They'll think it was

a natural death."

I think, and this is just my opinion, that the quote is referring to Adlai Stevenson, (D-IL) ran unsucessfully against Eisenhower 1952 and again in 1956) who died of natural causes in England in 1965. I wanted to sort this out, and see if there is anything to this. The reason I ask, is that recently I read somewhere (On the internet, MAYBE on the Forum) in which an individual referred to Adlai as being, (paraphrasing) responsible for the mess in Cuba, (comments circa 1963?) again I am sorry I do not remember where I saw this. Anyway, I am just trying to verify if it was ever proven that Ferrie said this. If he did say this, does anybody think there "may have been foul play with regards to Adlai Stevenson's death?" He was a part of the liberal wing of the Democratic Party and I am sure he wasn't admired by all those extremist right-wing hate groups, back then.

Interesting, post, Pat, re "Bad Bad Baden"!

Thank You to everybody who has contributed information to help me locate, Shirley Martin. I am on it.

Once we reached the bottom of the stairwell, we opened the door and rushed into the emergency room. There is always a commotion around trauma, but what I saw was sheer bedlam. As we flew by the nurses’ station, I yelled, "Which room?" A nurse with tears streaming down her face raised one finger.

I looked to my left and saw a man in a suit running. To my amazement, another man in a suit jumped in his path and smashed a Thompson submachine gun across his chest and face. The first man’s eyes immediately turned glassy, and he fell against a gray tile wall, and slithered to the floor unconscious. When I heard that gun slam against his face, I just knew the man’s jaw was broken. Normally, I would have rushed over and treated the poor guy, but the president of the United States was waiting for me, and his condition was worse than broken bones. I was to learn later that the man with the gun was a Secret Service agent, and the one who had been hit was an FBI agent.

(C. Crenshaw, et al, JFK: Conspiracy of Silence, 1992, p. 75)

He's a Doctor - he knows that the jawbone has been broken. The man is unconscious.

SA Vince Drain

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/history/the_d...need/Drain.html

I wasn't up close to the body, but I could see fairly well the large amount of blood from the head wound. The head was badly damaged from the lower right base across the top extending across the top of the ear. It appeared to me as though the bullet traveled upward and had taken off the right portion of his skull. It may have been the security officer or one of the other officers who gave me a portion of the skull which was about the size of a teacup, much larger than a silver dollar. [Note from Larry Sneed: This skull fragment sounds very much like the fragment discovered by motorcycle patrolman Bobby Joe Dale. See Dale narrative, page 136.] Apparently the explosion had jerked it because the hair was still on it. I carried that back to Washington later that night and turned it over to the FBI laboratory.

Apparently a problem developed at the hospital when a fellow arrived without knowing exactly where he was. He was in a restricted area and had gone through the swinging doors when he was confronted by the Secret Service. They then grabbed him and removed him from the building. I didn't know what was going on at the time because I was already in the trauma room where the President was.

...

He said, "I think that's an excellent idea. Let's get it out of here within the hour." So I picked up the phone, called the office, and got eight agents and headed out of there within the hour. That was, I believe, on Tuesday. Then on Wednesday I took it back to Washington with a visiting agent who had been sent in to help us out, Warren DeBrueys, the head of the New Orleans Crime Commission.

DeBrueys is sent up from Dallas, but doesn't seem to be the same as the 'fellow' Drain speaks of above in the Parkland incident. But Drain also doesn't seem to realize that the 'fellow' is a fellow FBI agent?

Torbitt

After the Bay of Pigs disaster, the Prio-Ruby group under

Bannister's direction continued to work with the Cuban exiles

toward an invasion of the Cuban mainland. Bannister, as a free

agent. worked with Warren DeBrueys, Division Five of the FBI's

resident agent in New Orleans. DeBrueys was also a White Russian

and a member of the Solidarists.

DeBrueys' chief assignment in the summer and fall of 1963

was to maintain a close vigil over Lee Harvey Oswald in New

Orleans and Dallas. This he did, and after Oswald's death,

DeBrueys gathered all of Oswald's personal belongings and carried

them to J. Edgar Hoover in Washington, D.C.94

On November 22, before it was known that Kennedy was dead,

Warren Debrueys walked into Parkland Hospital and tried to force

his way into the room where President Kennedy was being attended.

Two Secret Service agents had a terrible fight with DeBrueys,

before he was subdued in the room just outside of Kennedy's. He

was held down by Secret Service agents until help arrived.95

Strong stuff. Debrueys, as an FBI Agent, is stationed in New Orleans. He has no reason for being in Dallas, and it is not possible for him to be there at this time, unless he arrived earlier in the day - which would really be suspicious.

Gary Mack

Gary Mack informed me that this was Dallas field agent Doyle Williams. Wiliiams wrote an official report of the incident which can be found at NARA, and was interviewed in JFK: The Torch Is Passed. I couldn't find the report - unless it is the one on Agent Hosty? That was the only report on file for 11/22.

Out of 12 hits at NARA for Doyle Williams - none are classified, and all are reports by Doyle [as opposed to addressed to Doyle].

Notes from Shackelford on Hosty's book, Assignment: Oswald.

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/MS/1book.html

At Parkland, agent Doyle Williams entered the secured area where LBJ was

located, and was decked by Secret Service agents before he could identify

himself.(pp. 63-64)

...'Decked' sounds like Crenshaw's account. Maybe that's the reason Doyle only wrote a single report that day. As opposed to being close to Kennedy, Hosty places him by where LBJ is located.

By Nov. 25, the number of agents assigned to Dallas jumped from 40 to

100. The office took over the building's 7th floor, and divided the

agents into two groups. Agents investigating Oswald were located on the

11th floor; those investigating Ruby were located on the 7th floor. (p.65)

Hosty and Warren DeBrueys, both with background on Oswald, are assigned

instead to the Ruby squad. On the Oswald squad, Bob Barrett is put in

charge of the Tippit shooting, and the office wiretapper (p. 110), Nat

Pinkston, is put in charge of Dealey Plaza. Manning Clements heads the

Ruby squad. (p. 68)

3 hours later, at noon, Hosty and DeBrueys are re-assigned to the Oswald

squad.(p. 70)

Shackelford again...Databitz 3

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/MS/3data.html

p. 54 note 12 Warren DeBrueys, New Orleans FBI agent transferred

to Dallas to assist in JFK assassination investigation, was (per CIA

release) part of a covert operation called Project SEAL; another

SEAL member was Sergio Arcacha Smith, former New Orleans anti-

Castro activist (with links to Banister)whom Texas refused to

extradite for Garrison.

Weberman Nodule #17:

WARREN C. DeBRUEYS flew to Dallas shortly after the assassination. Since the second set of tramps were shuttled back and forth until approximately 5:00 p.m. DeBRUEYS could have released the tramps or verified their ID.

Fetzer's Murder in Dealey Plaza, Catfeet press, Chicago, 2000, p70:

FBI SAC J. Gordon Shanklin orders SA J. Doyle Williams to go to Parkland Hospital, locate the SS agent in charge, and inform him that Hoover has ordered all bureau resources to be at the ready to assist. Williams speeds to the hospital, finds Roy Kellerman and relays message. He then offers J. Edgar Hoover's condolences to Mrs. Kennedy. He then asks one of the nurses to help him find a telephone so that he can report to his superiors. When he returns from making this telephone call, reports of what happens next are confusing. Williams testifies that he is grabbed from behind by two SS agents and wrestled to the hall floor. Roy Kellerman steps in and asks Williams to leave. He does so and returns to the FBI office.

NOTE: Hoover will eventually demote Williams for this incident.[/quote]

We have multiple accounts of what transpired here. And they seem to differ in small degrees, one from another - but it still seems like we are missing something. Was he hit, or wrestled to the ground? Is it Doyle Williams, or Warren Debrueys? Why would Williams be demoted by Hoover for this incident?

There has to be more information on this incident, I am vaguely familiar with it.

Namebase.org DeBrueys, Warren

http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb01?_DE%20BRUEYS_WARREN_C

couldn't find Doyle Williams on namebase.org unless discrepancy of some kind or went by another first name and Doyle is/was middle name?

maryferrell.org - Doyle Williams

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...ancedResults.do

maryferrell.org - Warren DeBrueys

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...ancedResults.do

maryferrell.org - Operation Seal

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...ancedResults.do

Thanks, Jim. Fascinating stuff indeed.

James

Jim, Do you have the book "The Ultra Americans" by Thomas Parrish/Stein & Day/1986?

It contains a significant (actually four pages of information) about a John Hurt from "Wytheville, VA." It is undoubtedly the man. I found the book today and bought it at a bookstore here in Dallas, I have always been fascinated about the "Raleigh Call and Lee Harvey Oswald" as well. Let me know, I will post the pertinent sections on this thread, if you wish. Just respond to this post, if you don't already have the book.

Hey Robert.

I read everything that I could get my hands on concerning the 'Frequency' tale. It still facinates me. Here was the best version I have seen:

http://www.ape-o-naut.org/innuendo/

what is the frequency kenneth? On the evening of October 4th, 1986, Dan Rather was attacked by William Tager who, contrary to popular belief, had a very good reason for attacking Rather. Bill Tager was born in the year 2265. Bill Tager is from the future. Bill Tager is not from our planet. Well, technically he is from earth but not from our earth. Tager comes from an earth in a parallel universe and was sent here by the government of his planet. On Tagers earth, the entire planet is under the control of one government. Tagers world wide government has been experimenting with travel to other parallel universes (which involves a warp of the space/time continuum) for almost 150 years. Bill Tager, a convicted felon on his planet, volunteered to be the first human test pilot on the condition that he be given a full pardon if he returned safely (hence "12 Monkeys" and our flimsy excuse to include this story on our website). On Tagers earth the Vice-President of the world is a man named Kenneth Burrows, who just happens to look exactly like Dan Rather. (I should explain here that most everyone on our earth has a double on all of the other earths in all of the parallel universes.) Before Tager entered the travel chamber he was paid a visit by Vice-President Burrows and was told that he had a transmitter implanted in his brain and if he chose to remain in the section of time/space that he was being sent to and didn't return at the designated time, he would be barraged with messages to return until he came back and reported on his mission. Then, and only then, would the transmitter be removed and he be given his full pardon. Tager's trip was successful and he landed in New York on September 1st, 1986. All was going as planned and Tager was preparing to return to his own time and world when he was mistakenly arrested for putting coins in expired parking meters. After spending 30 days in jail (and staying on our planet 14 days longer than he was supposed to) Tager started receiving extremely hostile messages from Vice-President Burrows telling him to return immediately. His window of opportunity had past and he would have to wait another week to try to return but there was no possible way to let Burrows know this. The constant voices were driving him insane. He wasn't even able to sleep at night. If there was any way Tager could find out the precise frequency that was being broadcast to his brain he could possibly override the voices and be able to sleep at night until he was able to make his return trip. As he walked the streets of New York late on the evening of October 4th, 1986, Tager saw a man who he thought was Vice-President Kenneth Burrows. He quickly came to his senses and knew that Burrows would never make the risky trip himself and figured it must be Burrows' double on our earth. However, he thought, what were the chances that out of over 5 billion people on this planet, he would meet the twin of the man who had been sending hostile messages directly to his brain for over two weeks. Tager called out to the man, "Kenneth! Kenneth Burrows!". To his surprise, the man, whom we know to be Dan Rather, turned to see who was yelling and was knocked to the ground. Tager repeatedly kicked Rather as he lay on the ground and yelled "What's the frequency Kenneth?" hoping to learn the frequency of the signal being broadcast to his brain and stop the voices. When Rather didn't respond, Tager realized he had made a terrible mistake and had indeed attacked Burrows' double on our planet. He fled the scene and later missed his second, and last, chance to return to his home planet. Years later, in 1994, in an attempt to get in contact with someone who might be able to identify the frequency and put an end to the voices that had haunted him for so many years, Tager shot and killed an NBC technician outside the "Today Show" studios. Today, William Tager sits in a prison in New York, the voices, now an automatic message that replays itself every 20 minutes, still play in his head.

Is this true? If so, it makes me wonder if he was a "MK-ULTRA" casualty

Thanks for the post

Scattershooting while wondering what happened to Lou Staples.

I chanced upon this as I was cleaning my sock drawer.

circa 1974

BEGIN

"Dan Rather's Location"

On the Lou Staples Talk Show on KRLD Radio October 24, 1974, in which Rather was plugging his new book, "The Palace Guard," a male voice asked Rather: "At the time of President Kennedy's assassination did you office on Elm Street in Dallas, and if so, in what capacity were you employed and your activities the day of the assassination?"

Rather answered: "No---uh at the time of President Kennedy's assassination---uh--I was the CBS News Bureau Chief in New Orleans, Louisiana. Uh---I was in Dallas---uh---to coordinate our coverage. Uh---my location at the time of the assassination was---uh just past the overpass--uh---past the Textbook Depository. I was waiting for what is known in the business as a film and audio tape drop, that is someone in the motorcade was going to drop me some material at that location. Uh---previous to that---uh in 1962 I had, CBS News had an office in Dallas. It was an office I had opened and I did have an office for a period of about nine months--uh--on Elm Street. Uh----our location was there basically because it was near KRLD our locally ---a local affiliate station."

Staples: "Alrighty, let's continue....."

In view of the lying that we now know Rather did concerning his interpretation of the Abraham Zapruder film, it is now important to know if Rather did pick up the film. From whom did he get the film, what did the film show, and when if ever was the film shown to the public.

Rather was in Dallas in 1962, transferred to New Orleans, then in Dallas stationed just beyond the killing area waiting for a film drop! And shortly after the killing Rather is given an unusual promotion to be the White House Reporter for CBS News

END

Robert,

Anyway, is Shirley Martin still "with us," I am not privy to her age. If she is still around does anyone know how to reach her or in the event of her passing, next of kin?

In 1967, Calvin Trillin wrote an article on the early critics. In his article, he wrote:

"Mrs. Martin, who now lives in Owasso, a small town outside of Tulsa,..." He also wrote:

"she and her husband have adopted an American Indian boy,..."

According to Mary Ferrell's database, her name was, Mrs. Mark E. Martin

You might try looking there.

Steve Thomas

Hey thanks Steve! That is very kind of you. I will get steppin.

In the early day's of the JFK saga, after the release of the Warren Report was met with skepticism, most individuals who are familiar with the history of those who were not buying the Warren Reports assertions, are familiar with names like Bertrand Russell, Mark Lane, Sylvia Meagher, William Turner - Ramparts, Harold Weisberg, and Penn Jones Jr. We all are indebted to them in one way or the other.

However, there was a woman in Oklahoma named Shirley Martin whom until recently, I was not familiar with. But I am sure I would like, she would take her kids and come to Dallas to augment the work of what was known as The Housewife Investigator's or something like that; the others I am not too familiar with I know one was in New York and one on the West Coast (Sylvia Meagher?).

Anyway, is Shirley Martin still "with us," I am not privy to her age. If she is still around does anyone know how to reach her or in the event of her passing, next of kin?

Robert,

I think Shirley Martin is a major character in the pulp paperback book The Scavangers and Critics of the Warren Report by Lawrence Schiller - I'm probabaly spelling his name wrong, but like Posner, he's not so much a hired-gun writer as a journalsitic whore - who has also done jobs on Lenny Bruce, O.J. and other hot topics. Among the scavangers and critics is the Housewives Underground, which gives profiles of Shirley Martin, Sylvia Meagher, Mae Brussell, Mary Ferrell, et. al. His lame attempts to discredit them actually makes them look like real American heroes.

Syliva was in New York, Mae on the West Coast. j

Don't know if she is dead or alive.

BK

Thank's Bill, yeah I read some of Schiller's "stuff" in that book on the Net. I would tell you what I thought about it but I wouldn't want anyone to think I had Tourette's Syndrome.

Well, John, here is one quote from that cite:

Here is another quote:

My guess is that the whole world is smart enough to know the 2000, 2002, and 2004 elections made lots of people powerful and rich in the process of fixing our federal, state, and local elections. I believe Kerry and Company were in on the deal and sold out to the Bush bribers and enforcers; I will bet Kerry will pocket the 50 million dollars he has left over from his campaign scam.

I don't think this is so far fetched. Given that : Both W and Kerry were Skull and Bones. ANd Dean was the frontrunner with Kerry way out in back until that silly "Dean scream". (That the press made so much of, and was nothing!!!) Suddenly we see Kerry winning ....it struck me as quite odd. Then comes the debates and Kerry, the great brilliant debater goes on about the veep's gay daughter and other embarresing stuff. The lying Swift Boaters are virtually ignored by Kerry and do untold damage. Then the election. Then, post election: a ton of evidence of massive fraud. What does Kerry do or say? ZERO. Now he's talking about running in 08. Was there a Skull and Bones deal? Tim, if you really do not think things like this happen, what on earth are you doing on this forum????? Oh I remember: it's to convince us all that Castro killed JFk.

Gotcha.

Dawn

I will go out on a limb here and opine that all ye who enter here should make certain they have read the Wheaton Thread. Gee, if Wheaton is credible, and I think his story is, to put it mildly, compelling, then it kinda makes sense, it makes the "looney accusation" that 9-11 was "allowed to happen" in order to make "terrorism" the new "Communism."

(Note: 9-11 is and alway's will be the most evil type of act imaginable, the point that is being made is there were "war games" being conducted as the hijackers were doing the deed - tip of the iceberg)

The "War on Terrorism" is in (2001-05), what McCarthyism was in (1954-1958) purely from an American slant, of course. I'll go a little further and suggest to anyone that they read "October Surprise" by Gary Sick or "Firewall" Lawrence Walsh's Book on the Iran-Contra Conspiracy & Cover-up, or Barry & The Boyz - Daniel Hunsicker or "Compromised: Clinton, Bush & the CIA." You see, one can say that Wheaton's assertions are "revelatory" but if you can think for yourself and don't need an expert on television to tell you "what to make of the news" that's being reported that particular day. Then it could be said that it all fits, that's why practically everything thats happened since Jan 20, 2001 (on an event type level 9-11, WMD's/Iraq,

Katrina/Scandal in N.O.), Abu-Gharaib/torture, Sweeping INSLAW under the rug, shall I go on....) has the signature of utter contempt for the American people. Would a bunch of CIA crooks, lose any sleep at night about "pertinent issues facing American's" if they had hijacked the Democratic process to begin with?

From someone who has read a lot of history, take it from me. When the intellectuals start getting rounded up, don't expect anyone at CNN to "make much ado" about it, except Anderson Cooper.

End Note: Back in the 1960's around the time of the famous Esquire Kennedy Cover of 1962, a journalist asked George H. W. Bush about his political aspirations for a political dynasty ala the Kennedy's.

Bush responded

"Wait till you see those Bush boy's!"

In the early day's of the JFK saga, after the release of the Warren Report was met with skepticism, most individuals who are familiar with the history of those who were not buying the Warren Reports assertions, are familiar with names like Bertrand Russell, Mark Lane, Sylvia Meagher, William Turner - Ramparts, Harold Weisberg, and Penn Jones Jr. We all are indebted to them in one way or the other.

However, there was a woman in Oklahoma named Shirley Martin whom until recently, I was not familiar with. But I am sure I would like, she would take her kids and come to Dallas to augment the work of what was known as The Housewife Investigator's or something like that; the others I am not too familiar with I know one was in New York and one on the West Coast (Sylvia Meagher?).

Anyway, is Shirley Martin still "with us," I am not privy to her age. If she is still around does anyone know how to reach her or in the event of her passing, next of kin?

. Although I understand you Brits misuse the English language!

"Hey Fawn honey, just shred those old documents for me" now there's a misuse of the English lanuage.

In the good old day's Wheaton could pop-up on television (somewhere) and make his allegations public, but I am sure if he tried to go that route he would find himself "persona non grata."

Maybe he could talk to Fitzgerald, and just add it to the list. But what am I saying, there were no good old day's.

See this thread at the Lancer Forum:

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.p...ing_type=search

I GOT TEN TO ONE THEY DON'T PUT OUT 12 ISSUES.

GUYS LIKE THESE COME AND GO. REMINDS ME OF THE MEN ON THE GRASSY KNOLL, BOB VERN, WIM ET AL, CARNIVAL HAWKERS.

GIVEM' YOUR MONEY ON A BUNCH OF GLOSSY PROMISES. FOR WHAT THEY'RE PAYING TO PUT OUT ONE GLOSSY THEY COULD PRINT A HUNDRED THOUSAND B&W BASIC NEWSPRINT TABLOID AND GAVE THEM OUT FREE TO SCHOOL KIDS AND CONGRESSMEN.

THAT GARY AG HAS BEEN 'HIRED' BY THESE GUYS AND THEY'RE GOING TO SOLVE THE CASE FROM KANSAS CITY STRETCHES CREDULITY.

AS A BOARD MEMBER OF COPA GARY HAS BEEN A BIG SUPPORTER FOR THE ORGANIZED EFFORTS WE'VE TRIED TO DO IN THE PAST, AND IS A GOOD DEBATER AND FRONT MAN, BUT THIS LOOKS LIKE A HAIRBRAINED SCHEME.

WITH THE DEMISE OF THE THIRD/FOURTH DECADE, PROBE AND OTHER SIMILAR PUBLICATIONS, IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE AN OUTLET FOR SERIOUS RESEARCH, BUT I DON'T THINK A CONSPIRACY-LIFE IS THE WAY TO GO.

ANY TAKERS?

BK

NOT ME DADDIO, As (paraphrasing) Dean Andrews once said (They) Got the right TaTa, But the Wrong Ho Ho.

On a November day some 373 years ago the pope named Cardinal Richelieu Protonotary Apostolic in France.

Cardinal Richelieu is known for starting the secret police. While he was dying, his chaplain asked if he forgave his enemies. Richelieu replied, "There are none left."

Proving, I guess, that there is indeed nothing new under the sun!

The funny thing is, they think they fool history in the process.

Tim, Not sure where the Chevmeister lives these day's. Always felt his post-SNL career, after a pretty good start really tailed off.

Lynne, If Richelieu thought he was going to be able to fool history, he certainly was proved wrong. BTW, Is it true that you only date men who don't like Jim Garrison?

Tim, I wonder if you read what I wrote or are just reacting to me semmingly indicating your outright condemnation of the site is inappropriate. I don't think Robert posting it reflects on him. He appears to wish to discuss a particular attitude. That doesn't mean that he or those responding hold those views. The issue as I can see it is one of 'education'. In this context a lot of the site contents are indeed 'trash'. That would go for much that is posted.

The 'thought police', and its sometimes self appointed officials are of just as much interest here. John Simkins postings on Angleton, for example, contributes to understanding of those generating fringe reality. I don't think Robert here has anything to apologise for.

As far as the other questions, I don't think violence is good.

_______________

Was desert storm one of the first instances of a broad censoring of news? I understand the Vietnam war was brought to an end partly because of the media access allowing people to see what was actually happening as opposed to viewing sanitized versions of reality?

As you sometimes see disclaimers on controversial programs on television, I did not post said material as to imply or state that I agreed with material contained therein, and certainly do not advocate the "violent overthrow of the US government, and/or racism in any way, shape of form." Having said that I thank John Dolva, for his illuminating comments. I couldn't agree more (Apologizing for the post, IMO would be condescending to members of the forum, because it would seemingly imply that there thought processes were not advanced enough to "deal with" the subject matter,) We are all big boys and girls arent we? Also, the item was posted in the spirit of For Your Information. The post has been there for some 24 hours Tim and it seems like youre the only one having a cow over it. Another reason I posted it was there are the largest amount of links dealing with Iraq War etc, that seemed to be pretty informative) at the numerical section at the bottom, but I didn't spend more than a few minutes looking at them.

Thanks, John.

I take it the red dots are where the respective houses are. Do these residences appear to be on the same street?

James

Richard. Yes, red dots as produced by 'terraserver' and no, the actual streets are not in line, however sometimes of course that is not an issue. I suggest checking with streretmap, if it corresponds then you have house location, otherwise there is something wrong with how MS produces these results. I estimate about 600 m as crow flies. There is option on terraserver map maker to view results as aerial, topographic or street map depending on whats available for that particular area.

Richard, I live in Dallas and according to the "Mapsco" the "entire" length of Neely Street according to their map, is almost precisely 3,250 feet or, if you like just a little over 1/2 miles. Bearing in mind that is not going by the 1963 measurements which I do not have access to.

Maybe this will help you more.

See the link

http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.ad...allas&2s=TX&2z=

If this link doesent reproduce for you go to mapquest.com and (using the To: From:) place the addresses on, you should be on your way. Hope this helps

On a November day some 373 years ago the pope named Cardinal Richelieu Protonotary Apostolic in France.

Cardinal Richelieu is known for starting the secret police. While he was dying, his chaplain asked if he forgave his enemies. Richelieu replied, "There are none left."

Proving, I guess, that there is indeed nothing new under the sun!

Tim, As I am sure you already know Cardinal Richelieu did for the Catholic Church, what Gregori Rasputin did for the Russian Orthodox. BTW Did you ever see "The Death of Rasputin" sketch on Saturday Night Live back in the old day's?

I usually avoid things of this nature like the plague, but in light of the last four years and the fact that this person is speaking about a topic that is as pertinent to current events as I can possibly imagine, I thought that Forum members might wan't to at least look at it. There are always people ready to shout fire in crowded movie theaters, but when there is something credible about the points being made, which in this case is entirely a subjective concept, maybe it helps to be aware of it.

http://www.trytolive.com/

Home of Try to Live Better by Self Education

Point in Question

Welcome to the New American Fixers' Dictatorship! My guess is that the whole world is smart enough to know the 2000, 2002, and 2004 elections made lots of people powerful and rich in the process of fixing our federal, state, and local elections. I believe Kerry and Company were in on the deal and sold out to the Bush bribers and enforcers; I will bet Kerry will pocket the 50 million dollars he has left over from his campaign scam. Will we ever have the pleasure of seeing the fixers hanging in public? I believe all elections since 1960 have been fixed by elite criminals controlled by big money. Clinton was a partner in some big money businesses with the Bush and Rockefeller empires which makes him a criminal elite in reality, and just as 'trustworthy'. Kerry never prosecuted the big fish; he could have initiated the sending of most of our political and business controllers to jail and the death house; ask The Ghosts of Sen. Paul Wellstone, investigative journalist Gary Webb, Sen. Mel Carnahan, Sen. John Tower, Sen. John Heinz, President Kennedy and His Son Jon and His Brother Sen. Robert, Congressman Wright Patman of Texas, Congressman Carroll Reese of Tennessee, Congressman Louis T. McFadden, Representative Henry Gonzalez, Representative Phil Crane of Illinois, the Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Jeremy Boorda, head of the Alaska Military District Gen. David McCloud, former Director of Central Intelligence William Colby, etc. Remember the switch from Dean to Kerry; Dean or Gore should rightfully be our president now.

Tim, Is this where you found the "Zangetty" Story?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ghlite=zangetty

Thanks, Bill!

Even though I intuited correctly, that Ms. Paines Garage was going to be a "Lewis-Carrol Production," I actually took the time to read it from beginning to end.

Even though what I am writing is ultimately just "my opinion." That book is the single most perverted propaganda piece to have been written and reach the masses since the day's when all the major American media mouthpieces were publishing their "assenting, salutations" for the, then recently released Warren Commission Report. My suggestion for reading the newspapers these day's when it comes to mainstream editorial/op-ed/AP/UPI stories that have anything to do with the Bush administration, is to keep a copy of George Orwell's "1984" handy as a reference guide.

Final Thought

An old Dylan song, for us who have lived through the last few decades resonates with the following lines.

Senor, Senor do you know where were headin, Lincoln County Road or Armageddon?.......Seems like I've been done this way before, Is there any truth in that Senor?......Well, the last thing I remember before I stripped and kneeled

Was that trainload of fools bogged down in a magnetic field.

A gypsy with a broken flag and a flashing ring

Said, "Son, this ain't a dream no more, it's the real thing."

Senor, senor, you know their hearts is as hard as leather.

Well, give me a minute, let me get it together.

I just gotta pick myself up off the floor.

I'm ready when you are, senor.

Senor, senor, let's disconnect these cables,

Overturn these tables.

This place don't make sense to me no more.

Can you tell me what we're waiting for, senor?

From -Blood On the Tracks

Senor (Tales of Yankee Power)

Copyright © 1978 Special Rider Music

John wrote:

Remember, neither the House of Commons or Congress had full access to the intelligence. Instead they had to rely on the interpretations of this evidence by Bush and Blair. These politicians took the view that these two men would not lie in order to take their nations into an illegal war.

John, significantly, here is where we differ and it may explain our different viewpoints.

It is my understanding that very single member of Congress had access to the very same intelligence that Bush had. Whether the same is true for the House of Commons is not commonplace knowledge in the US.

Tim, you can parrot this lie from now until doomsday, but that shan't make it true. Congressional members received from the Bush White House only the "finished" intelligence reports. They did not have access to the "raw" data upon which that "finished" product was based. For example, we now come to learn what the Bushies knew at the time - but declined to provide to Congress: that a single report from a "known drunk" was confabulated into a "hard fact," etc., etc. The Bushies had ample reason to suspect the veracity of certain reports, but utilized them anyway for their own purpose, without making Congress aware of the shaky basis for those reports. By providing Congress with only the "reasons to believe," while withholding the "reasons to disbelieve," the Bushies achieved their desired result. To now say that "Congress had the very same intelligence we did" only compounds the first set of lies with a new, bigger one.

But to make your point that Bush lied I would think you would have to show that he had access to intelligence reports stating that Iraq did not have WMD. Moreover, you would also have to prove that Bush had reason to believe those reports rather than reports stating that Iraq did have such weapons. Otherwise he presumably had the option of using his judgment to select one set of reports rather than another. If his judgment was wrong, that was a judgment call, not a lie.

You make it appear as though a group of open-minded individuals cast about for the best intelligence and then made an objective and impartial decision. Those who have since left or defected from the Bush White House [Richard Clarke, Paul O'Neil, et al] have made it clear that this was not so; that only certain points of view were welcome and entertained, while others were unwelcome and eschewed entirely. While certain contemporaneous CIA reports have subsequently emerged questioning the premise that WMD did exist in Iraq, Bush was seemingly content to settle for Tenet's assertion that their existence was a "slam dunk." Unless and until we have a comprehensive and independent investigation of how intelligence may have been manipulated, we don't know how high up the food-chain such contrary CIA reports were allowed to travel, or who saw them, or who may have deep-sixed them. Once we have such an investigation, we'll be better able to assess whether these were just bad "judgment calls" or outright lies. In the meantime, it is instructive to recall that when Colin Powell was asked what opinion he'd given the President during the meetings at which the course toward war was established, he made it clear that if such a meeting had ever taken place, he had not been invited. If a President excludes his own Secretary of State from such a high level confab, does this not indicate clearly that potentially contrary opinions were unwelcome?

But I do not think you can even identify a single intelligence report that argued that Iraq had no WMD.

Can you?

Well, it's rather a silly question, isn't it? In the absence of a true investigation, how does one locate and access the very reports that the Bush White House stands accused of having deep-sixed? [including the contemporaneous contrary CIA reports alluded to above.] Do you really think that the Bush White House will accommodatingly hand over the very reports they are accused of having hidden from Congress in the past? To do so would be an admission of fraud, so how anxious will the Bushies be to provide us with evidence of their own perfidy? And given that these reports will carry some relatively high level of classification, how likely is it that others will float them for public consumption, when doing so carries a potential criminal risk?

I would, however, like to point out that my own government was strong-armed into participating in the Iraq war, yet chose - wisely, it seems - to decline, despite heavy pressure from a White House hostile to our position. I'd love to tell you upon what basis that Canadian government decision was made, but then, our government is no more forthcoming with classified intelligence than any other. However, it seems that it must have had sufficient reason to disbelieve the WMD rationale, or our soldiers would also be in the Iraq theatre, just as they are currently serving in Afghanistan.

Tim, you recently stated on one of your post's that "I sleep better when a Republican is in the White House." Care to expound on that a little?

John wrote:

Remember, neither the House of Commons or Congress had full access to the intelligence. Instead they had to rely on the interpretations of this evidence by Bush and Blair. These politicians took the view that these two men would not lie in order to take their nations into an illegal war.

John, significantly, here is where we differ and it may explain our different viewpoints.

It is my understanding that very single member of Congress had access to the very same intelligence that Bush had. Whether the same is true for the House of Commons is not commonplace knowledge in the US.

But to make your point that Bush lied I would think you would have to show that he had access to intelligence reports stating that Iraq did not have WMD. Moreover, you would also have to prove that Bush had reason to believe those reports rather than reports stating that Iraq did have such weapons. Otherwise he presumably had the option of using his judgment to select one set of reports rather than another. If his judgment was wrong, that was a judgment call, not a lie.

But I do not think you can even identify a single intelligence report that argued that Iraq had no WMD.

Can you?

Those responsible are ultimately former Nixon officials, Rummie and Cheney.

Bush is like the Queen of England, and Maureen Dowds calls him the Boy King.

I don't think that anybody will be held accountable because despite the ocassional leak, everything is distorted, twisted and denied.

If they can't even get Karl Rove on what I think is a transparent leak on his part, I don't think that anybody will be held accountable for anything, and the proof is that even 911 survivors were stymied by the Bush clan, when they demanded answers.

Lynne, I agree with you 100% as well as the post about chad-free elections. The phenomenon of Operation Mockingbird, is highly sophisticated. When Andersen Cooper went ballistic during Hurrican Katrina, it was to me a breath of "new" air. Gee someone who is actually high-profile calling the Bush admiinistration on the carpet about the obvious "our government can't handle anything properly unless it involves

1. Scaring the hell out of the American people, ala constant unrelenting references to 9-11

2. Lies, deception and obfuscating the truth.

There are a couple of acute problems in resolving this mess, both of which require an American public that is not "fiddling while Rome burns".

1. Restoring the Fairness in Media Act, jettisoned during the Reagan administration. This was the beginnning of "The Troubles."

2. Requiring every American to read "Manufacturing Consent" by Noam Chomsky.

# 2 is pure pie in the sky, but I am trying to make the point that IMO there are people in every era and geographic locale that are more than willing to bury their head in the sand while there is "a necessity to take care of business."

Only when the situation (the obvious realization that this is the most corrupt administration in the history of the US) and something happens that is the proverbial last straw (as far as the American people are concerned) are the "people" going to hit the streets. I am of mixed opinions to just what kind of encore the Bush administrration is capable to emitting, but they are on a roll as they say, and I am not talking about "French or Kaiser."

Robert

In a recent post Hemming made reference to a visit to the Walker residence in Dallas after the assassiantion attempt and during the heat of 1963. In the book Breach of Trust, Gerald McKnight suggest that Hemming was in New Orleans at the same time as Oswald.

I too "wish Gerry Patrick Hemming would "fill us in" on the particulars of the(se) meeting(s)"

Jim Root

To me the two most interesting angles after you get past the individuals - Oswald's (Lee and Marina), Ruby, Ferrie, Shaw, LBJ, Hoover, RFK etc....in other words the names that come to mind in sort of a generic way; Become Gen. Walker/Army Intelligence/Schmidt/Weissman/DeMohrenschildt connection and the CIA's Dulles/Helms/Angleton/Philips/Joannides connection if you can tie these two together in a concrete way you are on your way.....Where I differ, and I am not ashamed to admit it is that I think the "organized crime' tag is "out the window." When you come down to the bottom line, organized crime (as a group or disparate individuals) never, ever, ever had the power to do some of the things asociated with this crime. It is just an observation that at this point in time cannot be fully substantiated, but I believe will be soon that Ruby was "just as connected to intelligence agencies" as Oswald was. The item John has stumbled onto about Grant Stockdale to me is a real added layer. I also think about Gery Underhill and Wilcott. What was the quote that is attributed to Underhill "The Far-East section of the CIA was responsible for JFK's death. IMO points to the CIA "buddies" that share a connection with a seldom mentioned country - Greece. All you have to do is connect the dots... and look for the (where there's smoke there's) fire . Just Gotta do the math.

Jim,

I agree with Ron and others that your research has been very productive (although I don't really see how you plucked May 29, 1963 out of the hat, except maybe for the fact it was JFK's 46th birthday).

I agree with Ron in that I doubt LHO willingly and knowingly tried to kill Walker, but I agree with you that Walker was involved in the assassination.

Why? Because I believe selecting Dallas as the scene of JFK's murder was no coincidence.

It was possibly the only city where all the settings were perfect. Civic leaders like Ted Dealey and Earle Cabell hated him, the DPD leadership were lackeys of the powerful Dallas Citizens Council (and most disliked JFK anyway), the oil industry, based in Texas, hated him almost to a man and a large contingent of CIA sponsored anti-Castro forces were based in reasonably close proximity to the city. Add to this the almost indecent insistence by LBJ that Kennedy visit Dallas and his unsuccessful last minute request that Connally and Yarborough swap seats and you have, IMO, the most perfectly planned "home ground" fixture. So if it was a home ground fixture, it's almost impossible to rule out Dallas's most vociferous Kennedy hater, General Edwin Walker. The message (if only we could find proof of it) from those in Dallas to LBJ was "we'll take care of him, providing you BRING HIM HERE".

Jim, I have never gotten around to mentioning this but, I have been very intrigued regarding the John B Hurt linguist connection and the Oswald telephone calls incoming/outgoing. I am always at bookstores and usually check military history items as well as JFK books; several times I have stumbled upon World War 2 Pacific Theatre books that either are about codebreaking or have a section on it, and I never see anything about John B Hurt, which strikes me as a little odd. I think you are on to something on both counts timeline and the Hurt connection, I think your going to come up big at some point. Are there any documents pertaining to John B Hurt that are classified, do you think he could have been connected to intercepts regarding the Soviets and/or Cuba? Possibly N.S.A.? Your response would be greatly appreciated.

Robert,

Weitzman was diagnosed by the VA as a chronic schizophrenic. The sworn testimony of Dr. Charles Laburda about Weitzman is HSCA 180-10077-10208.

Also, the HSCA's Leodis C. Matthews interviewed Weitzman and wrote, "Mr. Weitzman remembered talking to a reporter (Canfield) about two photos of people he was told had a connection with the Watergate hearing, and said he told the reporter he had seen the two men but that he did so only because the reporter led him to say it and, in fact, he had not seen them at all."

Matthews' report is HSCA 180-10088-10083. I believe both docs are on Denis Morrisette's website.

It should be noted that Weitzman apparently became ill in the years after Dallas. No one was saying that Weitzman was nuts on 11/22/63.Ron

No, I am quite familiar with the Weitzman/7.65 Mauser issue and his subsequent mental problems, I just never knew that he was a "paranoid schizophrenic." The point I was trying to make is that people associated directly or indirectly with the JFK assassination, have been institutionalized more than I would have expected, which is just my opinion. On the other hand, Americans winding up in mental institutions that aren't truly mentally ill, is something that totally fits in with "sheep dipping," as well as a form of political oppression that is oft cited in other countries besides the good old USA.

I also think the word of "one person" even a "qualified psychiatrist" as a means to institutionalize a person, can obviously be manipulated. I also was inferring that maybe one of the people on the list I submitted fit the latter category, or even the former.

Weitzman also saw one of the North knoll sniping team who identified himself as secrete service to Weitzman...Weitzman later identified the secrete service man on t.v as Bernardo "Macho" Barker, one of the watergate burglars...

Weitzman said "That's him" when shown a photo of Barker by researcher Michael Canfield. It should be borne in mind that Weitzman was institutionalized for mental illness at the time, and his doctor told the HSCA that Weitzman might tell visitors like Canfield whatever they wanted to hear in order to make them go away.

I would be more than a little curious as to the "origin" and "cause" of said "mental illness," not that I doubt he did indeed have a "condition," it's just that his name goes into a list of other individuals in some way part of the "JFK Saga" who at one time or another were "institutionalized."

See Richard Case Nagell, James Hicks, Emilio Santana, Rose Cheramie, T. Casey Brennan, Edwin Walker, Pascual Gongora, Jeanne LeGon.

"But I'm sure its just a coincidence?"