Robert Howard

I would really like Dick Russell to comment on this post because he has written more about the Walker shooting, Larrie and Volkmar Schmidt and Oswald than perhaps anyone.

Oh for investigators

Name

Larrie Schmidt

Address 1963

4015 Sampson

Phone

214/TA7-0759

Name

Volkmar Schmidt

Address 1963

4449 Potomac

Phone

214/LA8-3901

Note: Information obtained through Dallas Public Library Microfiche of 1963 Dallas Residential Phone Directory on 01/13/06.

I can't speak for the rest of the Forum members, but I am getting the strong impression that we have entered a new phase in the JFK Saga, where media promoting the 'Warren Commission/No conspiracy/Lone Nut Oswald' can reach any television and cable network without a problem and the 'conspiratorial view' is as always mocked. The website referenced reminds me of some of the cable shows of 2005 I saw, which went to great lengths to prove, yes Oswald could have done all the things he has already been ostensibly recorded as doing, leaving TSBD, Cab to rooming house, shot Tippit etc....etc...

What entered my mind is that I have a difficult time believing that the 'individuals' that produce this material are some 'grass roots historians' who want to defend the Warren Commission's findings. What is the other possibility?

With regards to Dale Myers work 'With Malice' , I thought it was well written, but my problem with it was that it appeared like he 'tried to play it safe,' with the body of information he was drawing from. I felt the same way after reading it, that I did after reading Mailer's Oswald biography, Mailer didn't seem to want to write anything that would upset the 'traditionalists' nod, nod, wink wink.

I wonder if 'Operation Mockingbird' might have morphed into 'Operation Big Brother', as in total government control of the media, because either that is what has happened or there are a lot of stupid people in this country.

Thought for the Day: If a domestic intelligence agency in America, ever wanted to clandestinely 'turn secular America into a hostile entity against Christianity and how Christianity is percieved in America, they could not do a better job than the one Pat Robertson is currently doing.'

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...Oh sorry.

David Lifton, (author of 'Best Evidence - Disguise and Deception in the Death of JFK') announced in the early 1990's that he was working on a biography of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Now some 12 years later he has a working title and hopefully the book will be forthcoming soon

'FINAL CHARADE:Lee Oswald and the Assassination of JFK'

Hope he chose his 'sources' carefully.

See the Link:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/lifton.htm

"Barogona" is probably James Baragona, whom Ferrie taught to fly in a Beechcraft, and whose license application Ferrie sponsored.

How did this get Ferrie into trouble?

James Richards slightly misquoted the line: "..because I was the one who always got you in trouble."

Al had taken Baragona up for a flying lesson in late '65, but he was not certificated as a flight instructor, and this was observed by an FAA inspector. It caused a ruckus, but no penalty was imposed.

FWIW, I think your suggestion of Compton, is much more likely than T.E. Beckham, do you know any source information about him, maybe I should know who he is, but I don't off the top of my head

David Ferrie's 'suicide notes,' have always been problematic for me in light of the fact that they were both typewritten, which seems to be a little 'orchestrated' (wouldn't a handwritten note seem a little more appropriate for a suicide?)

Nonetheless, there are not a lot of Thomas-es in David's paper trail circa 1963. But the only one who immediately comes to mind is Thomas Beckham, whom Joan Mellen alleges at least knew David Ferrie. The only other Thomas, Tom that comes to find is Tom Bethell, the 'Garrison investigator' who turned over Garrison's witness list to Shaw's Defense attorney's. Joan alleges that Tom Bethell an Oxford graduate was, in 1963 in contact with Kerry Thornley who some, including myself believe was the person who picked up the FPCC leaflets from the printers in New Orleans, instead of Oswald, which has always been the 'official version' of that event.

Yes very close IMHO your ideas and mine . Go to part I ,CHAPTER VII pg. 19 of DALLAS Conspiracy by PD Scott. With further background you know CV Starr (via WWII operation X -using re-insurance (thats re) info to gain intell on AXIS factories) connects to US intell/OSS . Starr (via his US LIFE-op X ) became part of far EAST transnational protected drug operations (via RUPPERT INFO). Binns (US LIFE & CROWN Corp.) connects via W.S. Youngman to Corcoran. PD Scott connected Paul Helliwell to American General of Galveston in Deep Politics book. American General was bought by US Life. US Life had operations in Houston and PO BOX in Dallas in 63. The confirmation of ROSE CHERMAINE story is in the Strenght of Wolf Book- Now see pg 313 for Galveston drug ring. Drugs going from Houston-Galveston(per ROSE). OF NOTE Roscoe White worked 2 weeks or so for American General = a vetting process IMHO - There is some (some) truth to the White story - but the people behind promoting it actually knew most of the story was phoney - were trying to descredit White connection . The people promoting the White story were from MIDLAND TX - the hangout of one G W B.....................sg When you read Strenght of Wolf book -keep in mind Zeckendorf had Tawian/US trucking connections. Zeckendorf NO lawyers same as FREE PORT Sulfur and a board member of Zeckendorf's NO company worked for Byrd. Zeckendorf provided land for MURCHISON/ROCKEFFELLER land deal that PD SCOTT said was assassination related. The company that produced limited partnership shares for said land deal was CIA/OSS/Dulles connected Glore Forgan. The TEAMSTERS provided money for said deal via (WEBB & KNAPP) in a losing fashion..........$$$ in a losing fashion.................its almost like the mob paid MURCHISON/CIA/ROCKEFELLER axis for hit ++++++today US LIFE mostly became part of AIG re-insurance giant. (SEE LINDA MINOR/Ruppert WORK ON AIG)

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=AIG&num=...ts=&safe=images

PPS The employee of Byrd's (and Zeckendorf board member) John R. Stanley also sat on MOB connected Wallace investments - which was -headed by none other than LOCKE of LOCKE-PURNELL deciding Parade Route HDQ.

Freeport Sulfur certainly is an interesting company, in and of itself. Past Board members, (from 60's to 70's)

1.Arleigh Burke who ostensibly was a member of the Free Cuba Committee (not the FPCC)

2. Robert Lovett - Brown Brothers & Harriman, friend of John McCloy and Harvey Bundy (Father of the Bundy's McGeorge and William.)

3. Godfrey Rockefeller, brother of James Stillman Rockefeller, Godfrey was a trustee of the Fairfield Foundation, which provided funds to Encounter, a British publication later revealed to be financed by the CIA. Fairfield also financed the Congress for Cultural Freedom, also exposed as a CIA front.

4. Benno Scmidt - Later served as President of Yale University, and was at one time law clerk to Earl Warren

See Link Real History Archives

http://www.realhistoryarchives.com/collect...t-indonesia.htm

Another Link that mentions Freeport - excerpt from 'Farewell America'

http://www.voxfux.com/kennedy/farewell/farewell10.html

Message from Michael Ravnitzky:

http://www.legalinformationmanagement.com/...pra/new_05.html

This is a search engine for the 50 years of archives of Pacifica Radio, containing a huge number of radio interviews, broadcasts and programs, descriptions searchable by keyword. A simple search like "JFK" or "assassination" results in many many pages of results. Anyone can order copies of the tapes they have. Try it out and tell others.

Do you know what the format for the tapes are? Are they on cassette, or CD/DVD? I checked the files and they are voluminous to say the least, good stuff.

This man died in 1958 and is not a suspect in the JFK in the assassination of JFK. However, he played an important role in developing the network that made it possible.

Maj Gen. Charles Singlaub?

Tim Gratz wrote

'So, Robert, if American security is as illusionary as you say it is, I imagine you can provide me with the names of American victims of terrorist attacks on U.S. soil post 9-11-2001.'

My response to your question, which you did not specify was required a yes or no answer, I might add

was in the very first line of my post.

"Since 9/11 President Bush has been President for a lengthy period of time, in which there have been no terrorist attacks"

You may take that, as it was intended as a No. If your intellectual victory makes you feel that you have defended the integrity of our 'protectors', I would submit that you serve no other purpose on this Forum other than being our own resident Gerald Posner, and that is not stated as a compliment.

Your agenda setting in regards to the Castro did-it, or the Ultimate Sacrifice (C-Day, what a joke) or whatever angle you are postulating these days, would be better served, if you attempted to interact with other members of the forum, as one human being to another, rather than 'couched in legalese and 'witness/cross-examination formats ala the aformentioned.

Bonjour Mark. I don't think I've seen or heard from you since... what 1995? I still have those two videos you gave me. I have been able to add information gleaned from them over the years. I think I'm going on year number 17 with the research. I think that's how old I was when we met. The Paschall film is very interesting. Have you ever succeeded in getting it aired? I know the Beta showed quite a bit. Have you done any computer enhancements yet? My husband has done some interesting things in looking at some of the pictures I've gotten from various witnesses over the years. If you have someone that can do it, you should. I also have a friend in LA that does documentaries. She has one airing at the Sundance Film Festival this year. Perhaps you two should talk. Let me know if you've had any new developements.

-Carrie

Mark I purchased the VHS Video 'On the Trail of the Mystery FBI Man' - Interviews Foster, Maddox;

FBI - Barrett, Gemberling & Hosty; Runnig Time 1 hr. 4 min.'

While I felt that the video contained very illuminating information overall, I was a little disappointed with the 'Paschall footage,' in reference to viewing the 'Nash Rambler Station Wagon,' which is an important piece of evidence in any potential 'future legal proceedings.' Is there any footage of the Nash Rambler in the video I've mentioned?

If so could you specifically mention where it is at?

Is it in the beginning sequence of the Paschall film?

If it is in another of the JFK Eyewitness Video's could you tell me which one it is?

You should consider posting your thoughts on the JFK Debate, I am sure they would be illuminating.

Do you know the license plate number of the Nash Rambler in question?

If so that would be important evidence that would be of value in resolving some of the unanswered questions about the JFK Assassination, particularly if it could establish that the Nash found at UT is the same one.

Greg,

Have you gotten the idea that what Lee Harvey Oswald was engaged in 1963 was part and parcel to a government program to discredit and ultimately destroy the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, in part by his own setup for November 22, 1963. Could it actually be that simple? I think so.

There is the obvious fact that those who 'lay false trails' such as Clair Booth Luce (see Gaton Fonzi's The Last Investigation) and the DRE - (false Oswald stories linking him to Castro) are part of the mechanism of the assassination setup. This is really good work you've done.

Tim Gratz wrote

"So, Robert, if American security is as illusionary as you say it is, I imagine you can provide me with the names of American victims of terrorist attacks on U.S. soil post 9-11-2001."

Since 9/11 President Bush has been President for a lengthy period of time, in which there have been no terrorist attacks.

One could say it is a moot point given the repeated assurances by various personages in our Government, who speak of 'a future terrorist attack,' in the context of another terrorist attack is 'not a case of if, but when.'

How completely nauseating, it is as if the order of 'every day' since 9/11 is to scare the living hell out of the American people, My God! Tell me Tim do you consider that 'leadership?'

While we're at it, maybe the Bush Administration can make Pat Robertson the WASP Pope in the official position as head of 'the Dept of National Religion.'

The President cannot even decieve convincingly, he can try to appear sincere in declaring that relations between Republican's and Democrats should not be so acrimonious. But a comment like that is hard to take seriously when Karl Rove is your Chief of Staff

Let's see what are those joking comments about 'wouldn't mind being a Dictator?' Is that supposed to be funny, It is not very funny to me.

Secondly, at what cost has our alleged safety been obtained 'to blatantly disregard the very specific FISA provisions, that have been 'the rule of law' until at least the current administration began its tenure?

The irony of it is that I basically am a conservative, notice Tim that the first voices of discord being heard in the Republican ranks (what took so long?) are from 'real conservatives.' Honestly there are very few politicians in Washington that I have ANY respect for - Bernie Sanders I-VT being one. Because if politics was still an 'honorable profession' every single Senator and member of Congress would have addressed this nonsense a long time ago, but why start now.

I think the following sums up my feelings on the matter.

- After he was briefed on President Bush's secret operation in 2003, Senator Jay Rockefeller, the Democratic vice chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, sent a letter to Vice President Dick Cheney.

"As I reflected on the meeting today and the future we face," he wrote, "John Poindexter's TIA (Total Information Awareness) project sprung to mind, exacerbating my concern regarding the direction the administration is moving with regard to security, technology, and surveillance."

Senator Rockefeller sounds a lot like Senator Frank Church.

"I don't want to see this country ever go across the bridge," Senator Church said. "I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return." -

Does anyone have a good clear image of the famous October 24th Stevenson-heckling incident in Dallas, a month before November 22, 1963? There is only one photo that I've seen and I have been trying to find it for quite some time without success. There is a good reason for wanting it. Can anybody help?

I find this thread very thought provoking, and think I have a couple of points worth considering, concerning the use of 'propaganda' and the ability to control public opinion regarding points raised concerning 'The Fog of War.' Specifically, America's conundrum between the 'hawks and the doves' re: willingness to use the nuclear option in Vietnam, and how time is the great equalizer in this issue, and its relationship to Keenan's concept of 'containment.' It was, at least with regards to the American public not as controversial to use 'the bomb' in the closing days of the Pacific War due to the fact that it appeared inevitable, or so historians tell us, ostensibly because the Allies would be forced to invade Japan, casualty estimates in a US military invasion of the Japanese mainland were said to be as high as 1 million servicemen, Killed or Injured.

With the ostensible 'surprise' attack on Pearl Harbor, the American public's reaction to the Manhattan Projects success could be said to be somewhat subdued, regarding the morality of what had been done (at least compared to what it would be now) I believe in light of the fact that, long and short term effects of radiation exposure were not even on the radar of screen of public awareness. After 1968 and the Tet Offensive, hindsight over the use of nukes in WW2 among American's were arguably in two camps. Veterans and those 'old enough to remember' to some degree had less qualms with the issue, but many Baby Boomers held an opposite view, that what had been done In Nagasaki and Hiroshima was inherently evil, and that it was to our 'eternal shame' that we were the only country to use nukes on another nation.

Against that backdrop, JFK's policies in SE have been historically vindicated, and the argument can be made that the media has shown a remarkable penchant for 'trying to blame Vietnam on Kennedy, while it was LBJ that 'manufactured the Gulf of Tonkin incident into a smokescreen to escalate the war dramatically. I believe arguments to the effect that the 'liberal media' causing a lack of domestic support for 'ultimate victory in SE Asia' contributed to the 'defeat,' I believe that argument is hogwash. And Goldwater never stood a chance against LBJ, if Kennedy had lived do you think Kennedy vs Goldwater would have been any less of a thumping. Romney was who Kennedy was worried about, as for the Fog of War I find it hard to be objective regarding someone who admittedly decieved the American public, but he is a actor in a cast of thousand's, when it comes to the divide between those who fight the war, and those who send people into the line of fire. In that respect, I think there are eerie similarities between Vietnam and Iraq. The same glowing predictions, the same elite who don't have to worry about their children dying 'over there,' win lose or draw.

IMO Vietnam was a 'failure' for the US for the same reason it was for the French, MacArthur although a complete opposite of Kennedy politically he rightly advised Kennedy 'not to get bogged down in a land war in SE Asia.' Kennedy told the Pentagon to convince MacArthur and then he (Kennedy) would be convinced.

Now 43 years later we have ostensibly learned that the Joint Chiefs wanted to drop at least 15 atom bombs on Russia before they perfected their ICBM delivery system, and even reports that there were also similar sentiments in the Pentagon/Joint Chief's regarding Communist China.

As an aside, regarding America's covert war in North Vietnam; One should read "Spies & Commandos - How America Lost the Secret War in North Vietnam," Conboy/Andrade it is a good read, and if anything is a sobering thought when you consider how critical their ineffectiveness was.

Now in the New American Century we have a (bias) media that runs hard and fast about Kennedy's personal life and morals, and has at least contributed to the perception of him as 'pop icon,' instead of someone who had the helm during one of America's most difficult foreign policy imbroglio of it's history (Berlin, SE Asia, Cuba.) Having said all that, regarding Mr Gratz comment 'When countries are ruled by madmen, the good will of the people often counts for nothing,' a point needs to be made. Perceptions regarding 'madmen' is not strictly an American phenomena, go to Europe or the Middle East and ask people there about their opinion of President Bush.

While it is not strictly an American phenomena 'not to care about what other countries think of us,' I think America's past is catching up with us, you don't have to be a 'subversive' to look at our grand history of foreign interventions since the 19th century and feel a little reticent, while I understand the concepts of hegemony and geopolitics, I submit that every country, or at least every major power has some form of a philosophy of 'national greatness,' and I think that the George Bush's ideas regarding the separation of 'church and state' and 'faith based initiatives are 'dangerous when coupled with a segment of the voters who know nothing about the 'Watergate Era' and all it's hideousness that has been discussed 'ad infinitum' on the JFK Debate Forum, to me it is smacks of a pseudo continuation of George Herbert Walker Bush's '1000 points of Light', which might sell well to the Great Unwashed, but doesent sit too well with me and a lot of other Americans.

Wilson's 'keep the World Safe for Democracy,' to Kennedy and 'keep the World Safe for Diversity,' what will be the phrase that defines the Bush Administration?

No political leader, Democrat or Republican, no American nor group of Americans has the right nor should even claim the right to sacrifice liberty for a “security” that is as illusionary as the leadership that is so sadly lacking in that same America today

Does anyone know what the last JFK Assassination Documents to be de-classified and released are, and/or name and number of files?

Phillips clearly lied to the HSCA. Why was he not charged with perjury?

I think the record shows that HSCA Staffers pleaded with G. Robert Blakey to do so, and he would not.

By the way, I cite the work not as a reference work but as to the names named. Operation Pegasus, thrown in two more names, McGeorge and William, who are said to be Yale Bonesmen, to wit. McGeorge was privy to a certain post assassination meeting, which records of were conveniently destroyed before they could make it to the Archives. You know I do believe you can actually find White House memo's to JFK "suggesting accomodation" with man from Isle of Cuber.

What was it Jack Ruby said "A whole new form of government will take place."

Kind of like the one we have now, eh.

There is one cover-up McGeorge was party to 'on the record'

It now appears that the cover-up about Ferrie and Clay Shaw goes all the way up to Allen Dulles’ old friend and protègè McGeorge Bundy. In a recently declassified FBI memorandum of 5/10/67, the following paragraph is included:

Branigan advised all information concerning investigation by SA Regis Kennedy had been forwarded to the Department and to the Warren Commission, that certain of this information was sealed and this decision had been made by GEORGE MCBUNDY, [sic] Presidential Advisor, and members of the Warren Commission, and principally pertained to information showing certain people were homosexuals, etc., was not germane to the investigation, and MCBUNDY [sic] and the Commission decided this should be sealed..

.....Bundy and Dulles had worked together since the Dewey campaign of 1948, and Bundy was the point man in the White House delivering propaganda briefings on the Warren Report two months before it was issued, and it appears both Shaw and Ferrie worked for the CIA when Dulles was chief......

Oswald’s CIA files were also being shepherded by C/I Chief James Angleton through the Agency; the FPCC was the subject of a CIA operation launched by David Phillips and James McCord; that Phillips then followed Oswald to Mexico City in October to prepare the false and incriminating transcripts in the Cuban embassy.

I thought the Forum Members should see a related post, which I find fascinating posted by Greg Parker

concerning Joe Molina, - [TSBD worker on 11/22/63] who had some pretty interesting ties to the far right wing in Dallas.

Under "Joe Molina's connection to Gun-Runners"

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...1097&hl=crozier

By the way, please respond if you are familiar with these

1963 Dallas Phone Numbers.

LA 6-3844

RI 8-6141

Greg, I must admit I can't conjure up a scenario involving Robert Pic and the PSU as it pertains to Oswald, I personally doubt that Oswald had a personal involvement with PSU through Pic, but stranger things have happened. As to the same question under the "Harvey and Lee" premise, all I can say is that if there were two Oswald's and one was involved with the PSU at this early stage, we are all in trouble as far as 'resolving the unanswered questions of JFK's assassination.'

I would like to ask since the Harvey and Lee/John Armstrong thing came up. I purchased 'JFK The Dead Witnesses' recently which Craig Roberts wrote in collaboration with John Armstrong at the time. I also corresponded via email with Roberts who told me that he was no longer focusing on the JFK Assassination, but on other matters. He said he hadn't talked to John Armstrong in some time.

The question I wanted to ask is, isn't there a segment in "Harvey and Lee" which states that Ruby and Oswald were together in New Orleans, and at that time Lee Harvey Oswald was ostensibly placing phone calls to the Cuban and Russian Embassies?

Also, does it mention anything about Jack Ruby going to Cuba in 1963 using a Czechoslovakian passport?

"What you won’t see: Any discussion of Dealey Plaza -- Oswald did it, get over it."

Well, whatever his bona fides are, scholarly discussion apparently isn't one of them. What a creep.

With regards to Nixon and the Watergate/Dallas connection;

As the years have gone by and a certain amount of the JFK Mythology has been obliterated, i.e. 'Oswald as Lone Nut, etc..., and the fact that we know so much more about the 'Plumbers' than what was known back in 72-73 - Coup d'Etat in Dallas came out around 1973....

I have at times wondered if in the intertwining relationships between the CIA and ostensible religious and non-religious organizations like the Russian Orthodox Church and the Quakers and the White Russians on one hand and the enigmatic individuals such as Ruth & Michael Paine, George & Jeanne DeMohrenschildt and Lee Harvey Oswald on the other, if maybe there was a 'clash between the scenes' which the assassination was the culmination of. For instance the Catherwood Foundation, which has been proven to have given financial aid to the Russian Orthodox Church Community Outside Russia (see St. Seraphim - Dallas, TX. 1963) Catherwood Foundation also funded the organization Cuban Aid Relief. I know I am thinking out loud, about this but I find it odd that in 2005 we have 'The Federalist's,' is it possible that they are a morph of what the Catherwood Foundation was in 1963?

There are elements of somewhat related dynamics in the ostensible Nazi and esoteric links to individuals largely associated with the politics of the right, Nixon, who on at least one occasion had some type of link to Ruby circa 1947, Reinhard Gehlen's group being incorporated into US intelligence, the eerie details of late night Nazi films at all hours of the night in the White House basement; Krogh, Ehrlichmann, Liddy, Kissinger and so forth, and the Bushes infamous links to 'Skull and Bones.'

It reminds me of Ruby's comment about 'a whole new form of government' and the 'pogroms against the Jews', a lot of people seem to think Ruby's comments were the product of a deranged mind, but some suggest that Ruby may have been referring to the assassination of JFK being 'pinned on the Jew's' specifically Bernard Weissman and maybe L.M. Bloomfield?

I personally do not subscribe to the view that the Govt. of Israel circa 1963 was involved in the JFK Assassination. But neither do I discount the issue of Perimendex having links to the CIA.

One thing interesting is that in AF2J, there is a reference to papers 'that were' in the Library of Tulane University, from the Hale Boggs papers which attested that "Jack Ruby had called a New Orleans friend of Ruth Paine" (page 27 A Farewell to Justice). I would surmise the friend may have been Ruth Kloepfer, who loke Ruth was also a Quaker, there is also the article by Bill Kelly which indicated Oswald was probably in the company of a Quaker in Mexico City.

Could there have been two underlying ideological factions (outside of the JURE/DRE Cuban groups,) competing with each other? one with ties to fascists' and the other the far left (with one side prevailing on Nov. 22, 1963?

My best friend's daughter is facing 290 years in prison because her environmental activism, allegedly involving some monkeywrenching, is now deemed terrorism.

Tim, is your silence on this part of his post to be interpreted as tacit approval?

What constructive purpose is served by challenging Gerry Hemming on anything? I certainly sympathize with Tosh's frustration that Hemming has such a platform for disseminating false history here and that his privileged treatment enables such free-wheeling distortion, but whenever a probative question is asked, Hemming quickly resorts to personal abuse and obfuscation. To his credit, Hemming has at times admitted that he is not telling forum members what he supposedly knows about Dallas. My take on Hemming's remarks is that anyone who thinks he can be charmed, cajoled or tricked into a statement of substance about Dallas is wrong. Therefore, his pronouncements about what transpired are of the misleading, debunking and ridiculing sort. The overall result of such contribution is worse than no contribution at all.

The above is is the definitive word on the subject. The 'historical record' becomes a Orwellian/clandestine version of the cat and the mouse. Enter into the Room full of mirrors, is it door number 1, door number 2 or a combination of Door Number 1 and 2a, or Door Number 3 or 4, the trails lead to the proverbial Road to Nowhere. Go to JFK Lancer and look at the history of the conferences and you will find that this was the story 10 years ago. Anyone who thinks that everyone on the Forum is a benign kindly person, seeking the truth about November 22, 1963 is truly reading posts though the looking glass. There is only one person I would make that charge towards. Submitted for your approval; the 'Timeline' thread that John Simkin introduced that is conspicuously devoid of content.

In the final analysis, it is like the old British gentleman, regaling his audience, "and there I was, standing face to face with the most hideous lion ever seen, I summoned my charge to hand me my trusty rifle and carefully took aim...."

Hi Nate,

How'd you do that?

I've been trying to instigate some action here for some time, and you do it in one post.

You must have touched a sensitive nerve.

First TG chimes in, suspicous of Mellen for bringing up the Special Group subject at all, but buying into the Ultimate Sackers C-Day tripe, then you get Hemm and Hawll go at it like a couple of dogs. They been fighten' so long they forgot how to hold a conversation.

All three could have told you a few things, as you do ask some pertinent questions I've been asking myself.

This question stems from Joan Mellens description of a Special Group that was formed by the Kennedys as a potential assasination team against Castro in the New Orleans area. Mellen argues that this was part of dual strategy, and was undertaken at the same time as Kennedy attempted a new detente with Castro.

BK: This is not just A Special Group, but THE Special Group - the sub-committee of the National Secuirty Council that devised, planned, approved and ran covert operations. As the Church Committee described it, "Throughout its history, the 40 Committe, and its direct predecessorts - the 303 Committee, the 5412 Committee or Special Group, the 10/5 and 10/2 Panals - have been charged with various NSC directives with exercising political control over foreign covert operations..."

"According to Bromley Smith, an official who served on the NSC staff from 1958 to 1969, the concept of 'plausible denial' was taken in an almost literal sense: 'The government was authorized to do certain things that the President was not adivised of.'" As described by Dick Helms, "....[the] Special Group was the mechanism....set up...to use as a circuit-breaker so that these things did not explode in the President's face and so that he was not held responsible for them." When RFK came in, the Special Group became The Special Group Augumented.

Mellen claims the Kennedys were determined to keep this Special Group independent of the CIA, who they had a long standing disagreement with for a number of different reasons (not just Vietnam, just Cuba, just the role of Special Ops, or just the timing and location of costly land wars, but combinations of these factors).

She then argues that this Special Group to kill Castro was "turned" by the CIA to kill Kennedy. Because the New Orleans ground level of the Special Group had such direct contact with Bobby Kennedy, the AG was turned into his brother's killers' keeper.

BK: A similar scenario that we are led to believe is that some of the anti-Castro assassins infiltrated to Cuba to kill Castro were captured and "turned" and sent back to kill JFK.

1.DO WE ACCEPT THIS CIA PENETRATION OF THE SPECIAL GROUP AS THE BEST FRAMEWORK FOR UNDERSTANDING THE ASSASINATION?

BK: Of course the anti-Castro Cubans were penetrated by Castro's G2, but the leak of the back channell negotiations between JFK & Castro via William Attwood - Lisa Howard - Carlos Lechuga - et al., that was a very closely held secret known only at the hightest leves - JFK - RFK - Bundy - Gordon Chase (NSA) - Attwood - and possibly Stevenson at the UN - Lisa Howard and the Cubans. Oh, yea, the NSA was most definately listening in on the NYC-Cuba phone conversations.

2. HOW SHOULD WE DEFINE THIS SPECIAL GROUP MORE PRECISELY?

BK: Examples of the memos produced by such meetings can be found quoted in my JFK Coup - The Administrative Details thread, but depending on what time period the usual suspects are: Higher Authority (JFK's Covert Handle), RFK, McNamara, Secretary Vance, Dean Rusk, Maywell Taylor (JCS), Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. W. F. McKee, Roswell Gilpatrick, McGeorge Bundy, John McCone (CIA) Des FitzGerald (CIA), Sterling Cottrell, Bromley Smith (NSC), Thomas Parrott, Ted Shackley (CIA),

3. HOW AND WHO IN JM/WAVE WAS INVOLVED IN THIS"TURNING?" HOW WIDESPREAD WAS THE KNOWLEDGE OF THIS PLAN TO TURN THE SPECIAL GROUP?

BK: The Kennedys thought that with direct, hands on approval of specific operations they could better control them - witness the Ballon Propaganda program that was well along in development and ready to go when JFK called it off simply because of a conversation he had with Bill Morrow. RFK called off all covert ops during the Cuban Missile Crisis and when he learned that Bill Harvey - America's 007 - had sent a covert team into Cuba, Harvey was taken out the game. But when they approved the maritime sabotage operatiouns and started them up - without any time constraints - they couldn't call them back. At what level did they turn from targeting Castro to JFK - well, I can asure you that JFK and RFK didn't approve it, despite the propaganda now coming out that RFK gave the okay.

The reason I did not put this on the Joan Mellen thread in the History Books section, is that I am trying to clarify this concept of the Special Group, as it relates to various other "Groups" like Opreration 40 and Suite 8F group that may or may not connect. I have read around a lot on the Index and still this ambiguity persists.

Another thought on the Special Group and similar buffer committees, both Mellen and the Ultimate Sack boys put them in a horizonal line as if they were all separate, automonious units, when they were in a stepladder heirachy - like a military chain of command so when they chopped off the head the rest survived.

I think if we all look at your questions closer we'll come to a better understanding of what happened at Dealey Plaza.

BK

With reference to the Special Group, I wonder if Joan Mellen ever plans to rectify the FUBAR footnotes situation, (as in a corrected version of tome) I would have thought a writer of her caliber would have the professionalism to at least to acknowledge the FUBAR-ness of the situation to the 'buying public,' (as well as presenting a major hurdle to JFK Researchers that are attempting to wade thru that last half of that 100 page carnage), but I guess that was expecting too much.

I have made it (almost) through the first 44 boxes and here is the index I have put together so far. I will amend this post as I go through the remaining boxes.

Here is a link to the Ferrell web-site on the boxed Church Committee documents:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...o?docSetId=1015

Anderson, Clark Testimony, 2/4/1976 Box 2

Attwood, Bill Testimony, 7/10/1975 Box 25

Bissell, Richard Testimony, 6/9/1975 Box 41

Testimony, 7/17/1975 Box 41

Testimony, 7/10/1975 Box 43

Breckinridge, D Testimony, 6/2/1975 Box 27

Campbell, Judith Interview 9/20/75 Box 1

Clifford, Clark Testimony, 4/16/1975 Box 37

Colby, William Testimony, 4/23/1975 Box 24

Testimony, 4/21/1975 Box 27

Cotter, Richard Testimony, 5/5/1976 Box 43

deLoach, Cartha Testimony, 11/25/1975 Box 40

Dubois, Edward Testimony, 6/12/1975 Box 26

Edwards, Sheffield Testimony 5/30/1975 Box 25

Elder, Walter Testimony, 7/13/ 1975 Box 27

Evans, Courtney Testimony, 8/7/1975 Box 25

Exner, Judith Campbell Interview 9/20/75 Box 1

Gilpatric, Roswell Testimony, 7/8/1975 Box 27

Testimony, 7/17/1975 Box 43

Goodpaster, Andrew Testimony, 7/17/1975 Box 24

Testimony, 7/17/1975 Box 43

Goodwin, Richard Testimony, 7/18/1975

Halpern, Sam Testimony, 6/18/ 1975 Box 25

Harvey, William K. Testimony, 5/1/1975 Box 37

Helms, Richard Testimony, 7/17-18/1975 Box 25

Staff Interview, 9/16/1975 Box 26

Testimony, 4/23/1975 Box 27

Rockefeller Commission Testimony Box 40

Hosty, James Testimony, Dec 5, 12,13, 1975 Box 42

Houston, Lawrence Testimony, 6/2/1975 Box 25

Hunt, E. Howard Testimony, 01/10-11, 1976 Box 25

Kennedy, Edward Testimony, 9/22/1975 Box 26

Landsdale, Edward Testimony, 7/8/1975 Box 24

Martin, David C. Testimony, 7/24/1975 Box 26

Maheu, Robert Testimony, 7/9/1975 Box 27

Marchetti, Victor Testimony, 3/28/1975 Box 27

McAndrew, Thomas Testimony, 9/17/1975 Box 24

McNamara, Robert Testimony, 4/2/1975 Box 37

Morgan, Edward P. Testimony, 3/19/1976 Box 26

Morrissey, James Testimony, 4/13/1976 Box 43

O’Connell, James P. Testtimony, 5/30/1975, Box 24

O’Donnell, P. Kenneth Testimony, 9/15/75 Box 1

Osborn, Howard J. Testimony, 8/28/1975, Box 26

Testimony, 2/17/1975 Box 39

O’Leary, Jeremiah Testimony, 7/24/1975 Box 27

Papich, Sam Testimony, 3/5/1975 Box 41

Paupach, Kenneth Testimony, 3/31/1976 Box 43

Parrott, Thomas Testimonyt, 7/10/1975 Box 27

Phillips, David Atlee Testimony, 7/31/1975 Box 27

Prouty, Fletcher Testimony, 7/16/1975 Box 26

Rankin, J. Lee Letters Box 30

Rosselli, John Testimony 9/22/75 Box 1

Testimony, 9/23/75 Box 18

Rostow, Walter Testimony, 7/9/1975 Box 26

Rowley, James Testimony, 2/13/1976 Box 42

Roman, Jane A Testimony, 5/7/1976 Box 5

Rusk, Dean Testimony, 7/10/1975

Sarno, Alfred J. Testimony, 6/25/1975 Box 26

Sheridan, Walter Testimony, 9/19/1975 Box 40

Smathers, George Testimony, 7/23/1975 Box 26

Sorenson, Ted Testimony and affidavit, 7/21/1975

Box 27

Sturbitts, William C. Testimony, 4/16/1975 Box 25

Sturgis, Frank Testimony, 4/3/1975 Box 41

Szulc, Tad Testimony, 6/10/1975

Swenson, Harold Testimony, 5/10/1976 Box 43

Taylor, Maxwell Testimony, 7/9/1975, Box 26

Tucker, George Testimony, 5/3/1976 Box 41

Weathery Executive Session Testimony,

8/11/1975, Box 26

Wilson, Will Testimony, 9/8/1975 Box 40

REFERENCES TO FBI REVIEW OF TAPES OF OSWALD'S OCT. 1, 1963 MEXICO CITY CONVERSATION Box 53

This is a very nice gesture. Thanks for going to the trouble to do that!