Gene Kelly

Paul/Ron

Its interesting that this thread was first started almost ten years ago ... and recently revisited by Lawrence.  The question as to why a Carcano has always intrigued me.  My reading convinces me that there's some hidden (ironic) symbolism to its selection as the incriminating weapon.  Many excellent researchers have poked holes in its provenance, most notably Gil Jesus, David Josephs,  Lisa Pease and John Armstrong to name a few more recently ... and historically George Evica, Craig Roberts, Graf and Bartholomew,  John Craig, Michael Griffith,  Bill MacDowall, William Orchard, et al.  These all point to serious inconsistencies exist about the rifle's ownership, origin, purchase, and efficacy as a weapon.  No serious assassin would chose that weapon or take three shots from that location, if they wanted to succeed and escape. 

But what nags at me is that the Italian heritage (and SIFAR secrecy) also points towards William Harvey,  who was  at the time exiled to an Italian posting.  I believe Orchard's thesis that the selection of this poor weapon (in questionable firing condition) was intentionally meant as an insult or "message" to the FBI, to make the crime scene "messy" and uncomfortable for them.  Its no secret that Harvey didn't care for his former agency (or Hoover) and it appears the FBI scrambled in the aftermath to cover up its true origin ... and manufacture a lot of flimsy evidence aimed at Oswald.  In other words, Harvey and Co. were blackmailing the FBI.  It would seem (as a sub-plot) that the CIA and FBI were at war. 

There's also a fascist theme to this particular rifle ... shades of Gladio, Permindex and right-wing blowback. Someone allegedly ordered the rifle right around the same time that Senator Christopher Dodd's subcommittee began hearings in January 1963. And what always intrigues me is that an investigator looking into interstate firearms sales at this time was Manuel Pena, the infamous LAPD lieutenant who later played a role in Robert Kennedy's assassination. It was Pena who traced Oswald's telescopic sight to a California gun shop. After the assassination, Dodd promoted a story to the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee that Oswald bad been trained at a KGB assassination school in Minsk. The American Security Council - an organization advocating removal of Castro from Cuba and escalation of the war in Vietnam - is at the center of all this intrigue.  I would refer to the excellent 1996 article by Lisa Pease entitled "Thomas J. Dodd & Son: Corruption of Blood?" originally published in Probe Magazine. 

Gene

Thanks Ron, appreciate the shout-out.  I am only summarizing the good work of others (whom I've followed on the Forum over the years) like David, Bill Simpich, Jim D. and John Armstrong (to name a few).  It was CIA, all the way (with a little help from their police friends). 

Oswald’s postal box was likely being monitored, but (strangely) Harry Holmes never mentioned that Oswald would have to had filled out a 2162 form. All indications are that Oswald did not pick up the rifle package at the Post Office in Dallas ... there is no paperwork to substantiate this, and no witnesses.  I don't think it was the FBI (they were simply covering their organization 'marker' after the fact). 

The .38 caliber pistol that Oswald allegedly used to kill Tippet was sold from Seaport Traders.  Oswald took order of a snub-nosed Smith &Wesson .38. Before he could order it, he would be required under Texas law to get a “certificate of good character” from either a Justice of the Peace or a District Court Judge. This would be difficult since he was allegedly ordering the pistol under his Alek Hidell alias. Imagine applying for a certificate verifying your character using a phony name ... this leads one to conclude that he never did. There is an invoice (#70638) saying the gun was shipped COD via REA to A. J. Hidell. This particular invoice is (a copy, since the original was never obtained by the FBI). It also states that it was shipped to his PO box address (which  can’t be done) and was shipped to REA office for pick-up.

John Armstrong looked into this in great detail ... no ID was required to show up and pay the COD charge and retrieve the package. Anybody could have appeared at the office and paid for the pistol. There are no receipts found in Oswald’s belongings (no invoices, no receipt for payment). Someone went to great lengths to forge Oswald's' handwriting, fabricate Waldman Exhibit 7, and connect Oswald to the Hidell alias.  A lot of loose ends here. 

What is very compelling to me is that an investigator looking into interstate firearms sales at this time was Manuel Pena, the infamous LAPD lieutenant who was later one of the officers "investigating" Robert Kennedy's assassination.  Notably, it was Pena who traced Oswald's telescopic sight to a California gun shop!  Pena was the trusted courier of key evidence being supplied to the FBI ... and he was affiliated with the same mercenaries and cut-outs used by JMWave operatives in various operations -- Saigon, El Salvador, Uruguay, Phoenix -- who were employed by cover with the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).   I believe that DPD officers Hill and Westbrook served the same function that LAPD officers Pena and Hernandez did, 5 years later.   

What are the odds?  

Gene 

Ordering the revolver appears to be some form of an inside joke. Whoever did order that gun from Seaports was having an inside joke in the process by claiming the name of the person who could vouch for the buyer was DF Drittal. Greg Parker maintains this stands for the German phrase Dienst Fur Drittel - "on behalf of a third party."  Another coincidence is the G-2 linguist John Hurt, who married a Russian immigrant, Ana Drittel, a performing, NY cellist. Eleven months later, the FBI obtains a mail order record of an order for a pistol purchase, with a witness signature signed D.E. or D.F. Drittal. A week prior to the discovery of this mail order record Oswald, under arrest in Dallas, attempts to make a collect phone call from the jail to a John Hurt in Raleigh, NC. Further, Julius Drittel, deceased in 1953, was the brother-in-law of the NSA's John B. Hurt, a master linguist married to Drittel's sister, Ana.  Perhaps it’s something of a major (though cryptic) clue that the rifle was purchased by or for a third party. The other names being German words/phrases strengthen the case that "DF Drittal" is, as well.

Other coincidences surround the Dodd Subcommittee and the weapons.  An investigator looking into interstate firearms sales at this time was Manuel Pena, the Los Angeles police lieutenant who was later one of the officers investigating Robert Kennedy's assassination. It was Pena who traced Oswald's telescopic sight to a California gun shop.Pena has an odd background; he served in the Navy during WWII and in the Army during the Korean War, and was a Counterintelligence officer in France.  He spoke French and Spanish, and had connections with various intelligence agencies in several countries. Pena also served the CIA for a long time. In 1967, Pena "retired" from the LAPD, leaving to join AID, a cover for political operations in foreign countries.  Roger LeJeunesse, an FBI agent who had been involved in the RFK assassination investigation, told William Turner that Pena had performed special assignments for the CIA for more than ten years. 

Gerald Hill and William Westbrook are DPD persons of interest, who quickly controlled the Dallas evidence and witnesses while securing a bear trap around Oswald (just as Hernandez and Pena did for LAPD). Hill is described as a downtown “beat sergeant” on temporary loan to Captain Westbrook’s personnel department to purportedly help vet incoming Police Academy cadets. He is not mentioned much in the Warren Report, and yet he managed to be center stage at all of the strategic locations and events of the day, with first-hand knowledge unsurpassed by any other Dallas law officer.  Captain William Westbrook. He was supervising a small unique group, and I don’t believe he’d been with DPD very long. Nor did he stay with them more than a year or so after the assassination. He also didn’t have much to say to the Warren Commission, and they didn’t have much interest in putting him on the record.   Both he and Hill responded pretty quickly to the TSBD … strange considering their normal day jobs and official roles in DPD. Lieutenant Manuel Pena and Sergeant Enrique "Hank" Hernandez were two veterans of the Los Angeles Police Force who had the most day-to-day control of the RFK assassination investigation ... both had CIA connections through their training for and participation in police operations in Latin America.

Here are some good references:

1. Bailey, G. W. (2011) “A Mauser, is a Mauser, is a Mannlicher-Carcano”. Oswald’s Mother
2. Craig, J. (March 2016) “The Guns of Dealey Plaza: Weapons and the Kennedy Assassination”
3. Evica, George. (December 1995) “Perfect Cover – A Theory of the JFK Assassination: What Happened on November 22nd, 1963”. The Assassination Chronicles Volume 1, Issue 4
4. Graf, W. and Bartholomew, R. (1996) “The Gun That Didn't Smoke”
5. Griffith, Michael (2002) "Twenty simple Truths About the JFK Assassination"
6. Griffith, Michael (April 2001) “Extra Bullets and Missed Shots In Dealey Plaza”
7. Hewett, Carol (December 1995) “Silencers, Sniper Rifles & the CIA” Kennedys and King
8. Hidell, A. (June 2017) “The South Knoll Gunman”
9. Inkol, Sheldon. (May 1990) "Other Patsies," The Third Decade 
10. Marsh, W. A. (March 1996) "No Mentesana Rifle," Assassination Chronicles
11. MacDowall, W. (2000) “The Great Carcano Swindle”
12. Roberts, Craig (January 1994) "Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza"
13. Orchard, W. (November 2011) "The Shots in Dealey Plaza"
14. Sibley, R. (September 1985) "The Mysterious Vanishing Rifle" The Third Decade
15. Tatro, Edgar (June 1983) “Where Have all the Bullets Gone?” Continuing Inquiry
16. Tatro, E. (July 1981) "Who's Afraid of the Grassy Knoll South?", Continuing Inquiry
17. Turner, S. (December 2005) “How many shots?” thread in JFK Assassination Debate

Perhaps Italy's strangest manufacturing story concerns the 6.5mm Carcano. The M91/38 short rifle, of Dealey Plaza fame and the most incredible rifle in history (according to WC supporters), began production in early 1940 and ended production in early 1941, being replaced by an all new design of long rifle; the M91/41 long rifle. What made Italy drop the M91/38 short rifle after only ONE year of production?

Regardless of convictions that each Carcano made bore a unique serial number, the fact is that several Carcanos may have carried the serial number 2766 with or without the "C" prefix.  After the war Carcano rifles and carbines found their way back to the RE Terni plant by the thousand. Most of these weapons had seen service on the battlefields of Europe and Africa and were in poor condition. Adam Consolidated arranged for the renovation and repair of the defective units to make them ready for the US market. Luciano Riva, a 5th generation gunsmith of some repute, was required to renovate and repair damaged or defective weapons and, where appropriate, to shorten or lengthen the barrels of weapons to meet the needs of the US sporting and target shooting fraternities. Additionally, and most importantly, all identifying markings on the weapons were to be removed and the words "Made in Italy" stamped on each barrel.

On February 12th 1963, Fred Rupp dispatched carton no. 3376, said to contain C2766, via North Penn Transfer Company against Crescent Firearms order no. 3178 to Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago. If the record thus far is to be believed then Klein's took delivery of Mannlicher Carcano serial no. C2766, allegedly one of a very few rifles out of a total of 150,000 repaired and renovated by Luciano Riva that did not have its identifying marks removed. Luciano Riva allegedly failed to ensure that all identifying marks were removed from a small number of Carcano rifles. The seemingly arbitrary decision of US Customs to impound that particular consignment of 5,200 rifles out of 150,000 shipped to Adam Consolidated, resulted in the contents of carton no. 3376 being sold to Klein's Sporting Goods. How lucky could the FBI get?

A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas, had enclosed a US Postal Money Order no. 2,202,130,462 to the value of $21.45 in payment for one Mannlicher Carcano 6.5MM Carbine with scope as advertised with reference no. C20-T750 priced at $19.95 with an additional $1.50 postage and handling. Though the advert offered ammunition and a clip as added extras, Hidell did not order either. The simple conclusion is that the FBI knowingly obtained this unused, unpaid money order from Postal Inspector Harry Holmes and then provided photographs of this unpaid money order to the Warren Commission. And the Commission knew, (i.e. David Belin) that they were offering this unpaid, never deposited money order as proof that Oswald purchased a mail order rifle from Klein's. This unpaid money order is the key to understanding that the FBI and Warren Commission knowingly created the hoax that Oswald purchased a mail order rifle from Klein's that he used to assassinate President Kennedy. This unpaid money order is one of the most important "smoking guns" found in the Warren Volumes. It proves that Oswald did not purchase a mail order rifle, and it shows that both the FBI and Warren Commission knew that this unpaid money order had never been cashed or deposited. The FBI never produced a single document that shows the date C2766 was delivered to Klein's (sold by Crescent on June 18, 1962) nor the identity and address of the person who purchased that rifle from Klein's. All original records from Crescent Arms and the Klein's microfilm disappeared while in FBI custody. Only "photographs" of documents were given to the WC, and are now at the National Archives.

The attempt to link (HARVEY) Oswald to Castro through FPCC brochures, Mexico City, Robert McKeown, and radio interviews in New Orleans with CIA asset Edward Butler is undeniable. Lee Oswald's attempt to purchase a rifle from Castro's close friend, Robert McKeown, in early September, 1963 strongly suggests that the choice of a rifle to be placed on the 6th floor of the TSBD had not yet been made. This is reason to believe that the Mannlicher Carcano rifle found on the 6th floor was not chosen as the “murder weapon” until after Labor Day weekend, 1963.  The rifle depicted in the Life photo (identified as CE-139, Serial # C2766) is in fact a very rare model known as a Moschettieri del Duce Carcano which is a ceremonial rifle of Mussolini's Guard, of which only a few hundred were ever made. Its difficult to imagine such a weapon would ever turn up as part of a cheap batch of surplus Carcanos being offered for sale by a sporting goods store in Chicago for $21; far more likely is that it was someone's battlefield trophy until such a time as it turned up as evidence in the JFK case.  The sling itself tends to bear out this fact as it is clearly a ceremonial sling and not a field sling common to surplus military rifles.

Frazier's testimony before the Warren Commission reveals that the markings on the rifle were considered top secret by the Italian Government, and that there was a discussion off the record deciding what they could enter into the record. Furthermore, when they went back on the record, they failed to say what was excluded. This begs the question of what could be top secret about the markings?" If author/researcher Ritchson is right - and the rifle was nothing but a ceremonial rifle - this becomes more interesting.  a CIA report dated five days after the assassination which reads, "The weapon which appears to have been employed is a Model 91 rifle. 7.35 caliber. 1938 modification.  The description of a 'Mannlicher-Carcano' rifle in the Italian and foreign press is in error.  This later CIA description is interesting in that it matches exactly the description of the alleged murder weapon, a description that came from the Italian Armed Forces Intelligence Service. So, why (as this original thread asks) would a Mannlicher-Carcano be chosen as the rifle that will live in infamy?

In 1963, as head of the Senate's Juvenile Delinquency Subcommittee, Senator Thomas Dodd of Connecticut was experimenting with ordering arms from mail order houses in an attempt to gather information allowing Congress to stem unregulated traffic. Senator Dodd instituted the program on behalf of Colt and other small firearms producers in Connecticut who complained of foreign imports. Oswald might have participated in this program. Dodd, a former FBI agent and long-time J. Edgar Hoover loyalist was also a leading member of the Cuba Lobby (which grew out of the right-wing, red-hunting, China Lobby) through which he was in touch with the same Cuban-exile mercenaries as Oswald. He was also investigating the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in which Oswald may have been an infiltrator. Two of the gun mail-order houses were the ones from which Oswald ordered his Smith and Wesson .38 revolver (Seaport Traders of Los Angeles) and his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (Klein's of Chicago).  An investigator looking into interstate firearms sales at this time was Manuel Pena, the Los Angeles police lieutenant who was later one of the pivotal officers investigating Robert Kennedy's assassination. It was Pena who traced Oswald's telescopic sight to a California gun shop. One of the primary culprits, robbing domestic manufacturers of profits, was the Mannlicher-Carcano.  

William Orchard wrote that the shooters were "confident of their ability to control the crime scene" and - knowing that the FBI would manage the cover story - the assassination planners were more concerned with killing the President than with giving the FBI a clean crime scene. The decision to pin an inferior Italian rifle on the patsy was (in Orchard's opinion) a sign of disrespect for the FBI. There was also a tactical reason for choosing the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano and that is described in the narrative; the Book Depository was chosen to incriminate Oswald, and not for its desirability as a shooting location. The shooter in the Oswald window was not expected to hit anything (a fact he probably was not aware of) ... this was the least desirable shooting location and he was their poorest shooter.  The planners did not tell him that his poorly performing MC rifle (unsighted, with a defective scope) was meant to be an insult to the FBI; they told him it was a symbol of Italian pride. The planners knew that his shot would not go where it was aimed and they did not care. If everything went as planned, there would be a highly coordinated set of audible shots (and one silenced shot) and it would all be blamed on Oswald ... but things did not go as planned. The four shooters at the east end of the plaza were told to aim at the President’s head and shoot in rotation.

Interestingly, the Klein's advert entered into evidence by the WC is for a Carcano of the right length but comes from the November 1963 issue of Field and Stream. This advert was offered to the WC by the ubiquitous Postal Inspector Harry Holmes. This might be as good a time as any to mention that Harry D. Holmes was more than just a Postal Inspector. In addition to his postal duties, Holmes was an FBI informant. He appeared to have an uncanny knack of being in crucial places at crucial times during the day of the assassination and on subsequent days. Odd though it may seem, he also took part in the interrogation of Oswald at the DPD.

Jim/Steve

The White Russian crowd seem like a bunch of snakes (of the poisonous variety) ... they remind me of the Manson clan depicted in the recent "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood" movie.   I wouldn't trust much of what George deMohrenschildt told the Warren Commission (or anything he is quoted as saying).   He was clearly connected to Allen Dulles, as evidenced by his previous experience as a CIA contact for a New York lawyer named Herbert Itkin, who was knee-deep in anti-Duvalier politics.  Notably, George had been introduced to Itkin by Allen Dulles.

In the early 1960’s, de Mohrenschildt was part of Clint Murchison’s interests in Haiti, and became involved in oil transactions with the dictator Papa Doc Duvalier. It was later revealed that this was actually a CIA operation: former CIA agent Herbert Atkin revealed that Mohrenschildt’s activities in Haiti were actually a cover for his intelligence-gathering for the CIA’s attempt to overthrow Duvalier. In May of 1963, he arranged a meeting between the infamous Clemard Charles, who allegedly grew hemp in Haiti, and Army Intelligence.  Four years later, in 1967, Charles was connected with a CIA/Haitian Cuban Exile plot to invade Haiti from Florida (a sequel to the Bay of Pigs). The man leading this operation was none other than Mitch WerBell,

Recall that George deMohrenschildt was also acquainted with Janet Auchincloss, the mother of Jackie Kennedy. Within weeks of the assassination, George wrote Janet from Haiti on December 12th. The tone of this letter - particularly his characterization of Oswald (different from other descriptions) - demonstrates a manipulative and devious personality. Then there is a State Department document that relates an entirely different picture.

"Mrs. de Mohrenschildt took Mrs. Oswald in her car from Fort Worth to Dallas for dental treatment, a week or two after they first met Oswald. According to Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, they were interested in the Oswalds solely in helping them as unfortunate people. The de Mohrenschildt’s were devoted to the Oswalds to a truly remarkable extent; never before had they been known to take such an interest in managing the details of other people's lives. And certainly not people as contentious and purportedly "difficult" as the Oswalds. Neither Lee nor Marina was easy to be around-and neither exhibited much gratitude. It certainly appeared a labor of obligation rather than of love."

Gene

Back to the thread topic of the Paines (and their White Russian associates), I found this comment from a oil industry colleague (H. Gordon Calder) from Shreveport, Louisiana, who was interviewed by the FBI in March 1964 regarding George deMohrenschildt:

He described George deMohrenschildt as an atheist, a free thinker who likes arguments, and a ladies' man. He said that he had no morals when it comes to women and he suspects that if there was any friendship between him and the OSWALDs, it was due to his interest in Mrs. OSWALD as he prides himself with having had affairs with many women.

Steve/Joe

I would add that - by 1963 - the location (and control) of uranium reserves was less critical than it was in the 1950's.  The focus had shifted to high level enrichment of mined uranium, and its use in special reactors that could make plutonium, which was then extracted by special processes.  But by then, weapons limitations and proliferation treaties were also underway.  The development of Israel's nuclear capability was however a strategic US interest at the time (as well as the prevention of certain other countries' capability).  I don't think we (the US) had much of a chance of controlling Kazakhstan, where a large fraction of all the world's uranium is now produced.  Today, Kazakhstan is the most dominant economic nation of Central Asia thanks to its oil and gas industry and vast mineral resources.  In 1947, the USSR government founded an atomic test site near the north-eastern town of Semipalatinsk where the initial Soviet nuclear tests were conducted in 1949.  Hundreds of nuclear tests were subsequently conducted until 1989, with ecological/biological consequences.  They were the last of the Soviet republics to declare independence during the dissolution of the USSR in 1991. 

Gene

Steve

An excellent New Mexico Tech website on the geology associated with uranium can be found here https://geoinfo.nmt.edu/resources/uranium/where.html .  It states that uranium deposits occur in many different rock types from sedimentary to volcanic. One thing all economic uranium deposits have in common is that the uranium is remobilized from one area (i.e., leached from a source rock containing minute quantities of U or as mineral grains with elevated U concentrations) and reprecipitated in a host rock where chemical conditions (reducing) are conducive to concentrating the uranium in higher concentrations or redeposited due to water action (waves on beaches or water flow in rivers) in placer deposits. Uranium occurs in a wide variety of geological environments worldwide, and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) has identified 15 major deposit types based on those differing environments.

You are correct that oil and uranium are linked.  Sandstone uranium deposits are generally found in continental or marginal marine sedimentary rocks, and in basins related to volcanism. Uranium can be associated to copper and vanadium in sandstone deposits, and in some cases close to oil, and gas-producing terrains.  Examples include the Powder River Basin in Wyoming; the Coastal Plain of Texas; the Chu-Sarysu and Syrdarya basins of Kazakhstan; and the Neuquén basin in Argentina. 

By the early 1960's, plutonium became the holy grail (for weapons) and enrichment was the sensitive technology.  There were four known major deposits of uranium in the  1940-50's: Colorado, Canada, and the Belgian Congo. The State Department imposed export controls on uranium oxide and negotiated for the purchase of 1,200 tons of uranium ore from the Belgian Congo, stored in a warehouse on Staten Island for the Manhattan Project. "Little Boy" (dropped on Hiroshima in 1945) was a gun-type uranium-235 weapon, weighing 8,900 lb . It fired one subcritical piece of uranium-235 into another subcritical piece of uranium-235, which caused a nuclear chain reaction. 

Gene

Steve

Being a nuclear engineer, I can comment upon uranium. Its a relatively common metal, found in rocks and seawater; and economic concentrations are not uncommon. Very large amounts of uranium occur in the world's oceans, but in very low concentrations.  The quantity of mineral resources currently are greater than perceived, and  are relative to both market prices and cost of extraction.  Uranium supply comes from two sources currently: mining and decommissioned nuclear warheads, and it has been successfully mined since the 1940s. 

All isotopes of uranium are radioactive and, over time, they decay to other lighter elements. The rate of decay is slow; the radioactive half-life of U-238 (the principal isotope found in the ground) is 4.47 billion years,. The half-life of U-235 (the fissionable isotope of interest, with a relatively small naturally occurring concentration) is 704 million years, which means that most of the Earth's original U-235 has already decayed away. Searching for uranium is  easier than for other mineral resources because the radiation signature of uranium's decay products allows deposits to be mapped from the air.

At Ranger in Australia, Rössing in Namibia, and most of Canada's Northern Saskatchewan mines (some of the world's largest mines), the orebodies have been accessed by open cut mining. Other mines such as Olympic Dam in Australia, McArthur River and Cigar Lake in Northern Saskatchewan, and Akouta in Niger are underground, up to 600 meters deep. Uranium mines operate in some 20 countries, but half of world production comes from just ten mines in four countries. Most of the uranium ore deposits at present supporting these mines have average grades in excess of 0.10% of uranium (> 1000 parts per million).  Over two-thirds of the world's production of uranium from mines originates from Kazakhstan, Canada and Australia. Over half of uranium mine production today is from state-owned mining companies, some of which prioritize secure supply over market considerations.  The majority of uranium resources in the United States are located in geological deposits in the Colorado plateau, Texas gulf coast region, and Wyoming basins.  Mining in Australia began in 1954, and roughly 85 known deposits, varying in size from small to very large, are scattered across the Australian continent (70% of in-ground deposits occur in so-called Proterozoic hematite granitic breccias at Olympic Dam, the world's largest deposit). After five decades of uranium mining, Australia still has the world's largest uranium resources.  Discoveries of high-grade uranium deposits in Canada, and new low-grade deposits have been recently reported under development in Argentina and Peru  recoverable at low-cost.

In 1964, as part of an effort to reduce tensions with the Soviet Union after the Cuban missile crisis, President Lyndon Johnson and Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev announced parallel reductions in the production of fissile materials. In addition to promoting a more peaceful “post-Cold War era,” Johnson warned that the United States must not operate a nuclear project “just to maintain employment.” That same year, Johnson ordered an end to the production of enriched uranium for weapons purposes.  Since 1974 - when India tested a nuclear explosive made with plutonium separated for its civilian nuclear research and development program - the US has discouraged non-nuclear-armed states from launching plutonium-separation or uranium-enrichment programs to minimize proliferation issues and reduce terrorist access.  

I may not know too much about the White Russians (or the colonels), but I can speak to nuclear engineering, and I teach a graduate course on the subject. 

Gene

Thanks for the clarity Sandy.  I am still a bit confused (Stripling is perhaps easier to understand) but I originally thought that RCD was criticizing Jim Di Eugenio ... but if it was Jim Hargrove, the same sentiment applies.  I can't find the original RCD post now, but I should've paid closer attention to Jim D.'s example when he stated that he would only make one post, and then leave.   I must say that a number of very respectable researchers have weighed-in on this thread, so I was drawn to it.  But when it becomes polarized, and the argumentum ad hominem  begins, I suspect another agenda is at play.  The work of Armstrong - and Jim Hargrove's representation - must somehow threaten someone (or something) for it to become so personal.  Such staunch opposition ironically has the opposite effect on me ... it sends a message that there's substance to the H&L anomalies. 

Sandy

Thanks for validating my initial post (I didn't think that I had confused the two Jim's). Also, it as not my intent to imply anything about James Hargrove's views/posts.   I used the phrase to emphasize that its one thing to disagree or refute some point, but quite another to characterize it as misinformation.  In other words, it goes too far.  While I might question some aspect of this entire theory, but I would never label it as misinformation.   I visit these threads to learn, and understand ... not to criticize other's views or try to convince them otherwise.  

Gene  

Peace, Robert ... you're one of the most respected posters on the EF.   So, I would hope that I'm simply over-reacting.  If the 'Jim' you referred to was Hargrove, then that's my mistake.  But he too deserves some respect (disagreement notwithstanding).  I'm not sure that I would go so far as to characterize Mr. Hargrove's views/posts  as "disinformation", but that's your prerogative to maintain.  And for the record - its not indignation - I'm just surprised (and mildly disappointed) at the vitriol, coming from (of all people) you.  I've always been impressed by your command of the storyline, and how you express your views,.   

Steve

Thanks for turning me on to Kleinerer.  He is quite the interesting character.  Mrs. Gibson (Gary Taylor's ex-wife) described Alex Kleinerer as:

"Short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy customer. He spoke Russian fluently.

She believed that he came from Paris (he was actually a survivor of the Concentration Camps). The area in Poland in which he originally resided was apparently overrun by the German Army, and he was confined in Buchenwald. He allegedly lost his entire family. Mrs. Gibson had no idea what his occupation was. But she shared that Kleinerer did not get along with Lee, and had arguments about Marina and how Lee allegedly beat her. His Warren deposition (he was never brought before the Commission or questioned) states that he witnessed  Oswald abusing his wife (the only person with such first-hand knowledge).  He lived next door to the enigmatic Lydia Dymitruk, was a naturalized American citizen, later lived in NYC and appears to have Rockefeller connections.  He seems a charter member of Dulles' Operation Paperclip.  

Gene   

Robert

I've always respected your posts (and views).  So, I am surprised at your animosity and verbal gymnastics.  I do not not appreciate your fancy and sarcastic soliloquy, now aimed at me.  You seem a little too cute with your words and arguments ... so please save the thinly-veiled sarcasm for someone else.  Speculating on my "skin in the game" is none of your business.  As far as use of the word “valet”, you should should show Jim DiEugenio more respect (as he deserves such).  You are backing away from what I consider boorish comments; using the phrase "converts to the cause" is condescending.  This is supposed to be an "education" forum ... not a podium for your admonishments. 

Gene Kelly

All:

There are many individuals in this thread (started less than a week ago) whom I respect highly for their contributions to the Forum.  But I am disappointed in some of the tone expressed.  I agree with Jim D. that this particular subject evokes unusually strong opinions and reactions. Armstrong’s work on Mexico City, the rifle, Kerry Thornley, and the Tippit shooting are all thought-provoking.  The fact is, John Armstong’s work has had influence … and I see no right or wrong here, especially in such a complex and controversial subject as JFK’s murder.  I can’t for the life of me understand why some react so strongly to the thesis of Harvey and Lee.  There’s simply no good reason to characterize someone as “John’s loyal valet for decades” or refer to “the H&L re-education camp”, and those who side with Armstong’s story as “converts to this cause”. Both James Norwood and Mark Stevens deserve more respect … as do all Forum participants.

Gene

Tony

I'm not too familiar with Mrs. Elena Hall.  She was apparently a member of the White Russian cabal (Anna Meller, George Bouhe, George deMohrenschildt, Max Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall, Lydia Dymitruk and  Igor Vladimir Voshinin) that surrounding the Oswalds.  She and her husband are apparently from New York.  I'd recommend that you study the Warren Commission testimony of one Alexander Kleinlerer, who really does a number on Lee Oswald, painting him in the worst possible light (as a husband and a Communist). It was way over the top ... for example:

Other friends told me he frequently compared conditions here in America with those in Russia to the detriment of America and he did this in a way that was contemptuous of America. They said he would repeatedly say that there was no unemployment in Russia but that there was a lot of it in America; that capitalists in America lived off the workers. They said he argued that in Russia medical attention and care was at hand and was free, whereas in America you either had to pay doctors or hospitals or that even in clinics you always had to pay something.

We had just begun to discuss the matter of moving the next day when Oswald observed that the zipper on Marina's skirt was not completely closed. He called to her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer commanding a soldier. His exact words were, "Come Here!", in the Russian Language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. He was standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room of the house. When she reached the doorway he rudely reprimanded her in a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped her hard in the face twice. Marina still had the baby in her arms. Her face was red and tears came to her eyes. All this took place in my presence. I was very much embarrassed and also angry but I had long been afraid of Oswald and I did not say anything.

I would also point out that, in March 2008, Dr. Michal Freda Kleinlerer and Dr. Jonathan David Shenkin were married at Blue Hill at Stone Barns, the restaurant on the Rockefeller family’s Pocantico Hills estate in Tarrytown, N.Y. The bride was an orthodontist with practices in Bangor and Waterville, Me. and graduated magna cum laude from the University of Pennsylvania with two degrees from Harvard: a Doctor of Medical Dentistry and a Master of Medical Science in developmental biology. She is the daughter of Alexander Kleinlerer of New York and the late Nitza Kleinlerer.  Does the Rockefeller connection stand out to you? 

So, I don't belive the second-hand comments of Mrs. Elena Hall (one of Oswald's character assassins). You should also read the rebuttal of this Russian group (and the Halls) written by Robert Charles Dunne in February 2017 entitled "Was Oswald a Serial Wife Batterer" published in Kennedys and King.   Neely St. was pure smoke and mirrors. 

Tony

Jim

I do not think the Oswalds ever lived at this apartment. I am influenced by the work of Greg Parker and Ed LeDoux in this regard.  Oswald was making $1.35 per hour at Jaggers Chiles Stovall during the month of March 1963, but he was paying $72.68 a month for a one-bedroom flat at the Neely Street house (doesn't compute)?  It appears that the apartment at 214 W. Neely was a CIA safe house. The landlord (Waldo George, odd name, an intelligence tease/joke) doesn't provide a consistent surname in several documents, and he alleges that someone with a duplicate key broke into the apartment  during the Fall when it was unoccupied.  All of his interviews are second-hand, with weak (or nonexistent) documentation.  Considering that the incrimination of Oswald depends in large part upon proving his stay at Neely St., its not well investigated or corroborated.   I've come to belive that both Ruth and Marina were complicit in all of this ... not just innocent dupes. There's a compelling coincidence to Ruth's alleged "visits" and the weapons transactions.  My speculation is that Ruth is somehow protecting Marina's cover, by removing her from the scene during certain crucial times. This is so the setup weapons can be ordered/delivered - to this residence (at least on paper) - by the plotters.  Ruth is surely engaged in allegedly visiting the Oswalds at Neely St., and in moving them out. They were only allegedly there for about 7 weeks.  A lot of milestone (incriminating) events occurred during that brief period. They all involved Lee (and notably not Marina).   

I am reminded that the order for the revolver from Seaports was apparently an inside joke, by claiming the name of the person who could vouch for the buyer was D.F. Drittal. Greg Parker pointed out that this stands for the German phrase Dienst Fur Drittel - "on behalf of a third party."  Another coincidence is the G-2 linguist John Hurt, who married a Russian immigrant, Ana Drittel, a performing, NY cellist. Eleven months later, the FBI obtains a mail order record of an order for a pistol purchase, with a witness signature signed D.E. or D.F. Drittal.  Someone was making a subtle but overt mockery of the scheme.

Gene

The other aspect that Greg expertly surmised is that - according to evidence discussed on the "Ruth Paine's Calendar" EF thread - she forged and then mailed the Klein's envelope.  There are indications that she dropped it into a box in Postal Zone 12 (near Neely St.), just before her visit to Marina's apartment on March 12th.  The 5-foot carton was shipped on March 20th (a Wednesday) and probably didn't arrive in Dallas for another two days.  Greg further speculates that perhaps a Chicago postal informant alerted Harry Holmes in Dallas that the Hidell rifle was on its way (or even Ruth directly) ... and Holmes' subsequent contact to Ruth may have compelled her to pay a visit to Marina that day.   

Paul B. and Jim D.

To be clear about Point #6 from my Thursday post - regarding the coincidence of Ruth's visits to the apartment and milestone dates for the revolved and rifle - the source credit goes to Greg Parker.  In his April 11, 2011 thread on 'Neely Street Questions', he makes the following three key points: 

1. March 12, 1963: Ruth Paine visits Marina at the new apartment. Also that day, LHO orders a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago.
2. March 20, 1963: Ruth Paine makes her second trip to visit Marina at the Neely St address. Also that day, the rifle and the revolver are shipped.
3. Marina is taken away from the apartment on both occasions. 

Gene 

See the September 8, 2014 blog of Gayle Nix Jackson entitled "The Georges of Neely Street" and the 2011 Forum thread "Neely Street Questions" which offer the following: 

• An unidentified Secret Service agent personally interviewed an F.M. George, living at 6769 Inverness Lane, with regard to Oswald's rental of the Neely St. apartment (WC Hearings XIV: CE 2189, p. 8). On the basis of the information he gave the Secret Service investigator, F. M. was  the same individual as the M. Waldo George of the 1964 affidavit.  According to the Secret Service report, George showed the agent the rental receipts; however, they were apparently not handed over to the agent.
• The owner of 214 Neely Street (the mysterious M. Waldo George) in his affidavit, goes on to say that George Brown Gray (living downstairs) complained that Oswald, in the apartment above him, was beating his wife ... but the only thing the owner does is call around to the apartment and invite the Oswald's to church with him and his wife. The owner, for reasons not given, claims to have padlocked the apartment after it was vacated in May. He further claimed some unknown party had been gaining access for unknown reasons in the months leading up to the assassination. In his statement he claims that Oswald didn't rent the property until April 1st and stayed there until May 31st. The owner is listed with three different names: "M.W. George", "W. Waldo George" and "Jim W. George".
• Ed LeDoux contacted Clydie Gray, who was elderly and hard of hearing at the time. Mrs. Gray (who lived downstairs) said her husband George B. was a garbage man for the City of Dallas. She worked at Akers Department store, and George B. Gray worked for the city. She didn't remember the owner of the apartments, nor recall which church she was attending while at Neely.  They were never interviewed by the Warren Commission. She remembered the Oswalds living upstairs and remembers Marina walking the baby in front of the house. She said Marina spoke English, and that she saw Lee many times, but was not friendly with him. 
• Albert Jenner encouraged Neely St. related testimony from Ruth Paine. Ruth met the Oswald family at a park near their Neely St. home on April 20th, and says she must have arranged the visit by communication by letter. She claims she is actually at their apartment on April 24th, and - since they are packed and waiting for her to pick them up - there must have been an advance arrangement, but she does not recall the details. The WC questioners were trying to establish that she could have seen a seabag containing an object 40 inches long. The Commissioners present seemed to be intentionally making the questioning as confusing as possible.  Ruth maintained her story that Marina would stay (with her daughter) indefinitely at the Neely St. apartment after Lee's departure, although all of their possessions had been packed and Lee took what he could carry. 
• Greg Parker investigated the record of electrical services (and meter readings) at the Neely St. apartment. The service had been previously connected for a C.P. Cornett until January 16th, when Cornett advised by phone he was moving. The meter was read on February 19; at that time, the meter reader reported the premises as vacant. The meter was read again on March 20th and 36 kilowatt hours had been used. However, the meter reader once again reported the premises vacant. The next reading was on April 19th and reflected a usage of 66 kilowatt hours (the premises this time were reported as occupied). On April 24, a letter was sent to the address requesting the new occupant to make a deposit; no response was received.  On May 1st, a company representative paid a visit to the address and the letter sent on April 24 was seen still sitting in the letter box. A cut-off order was issued and the services were cut the next day.  The company representative advised he had made a hand-written note in a file on March 29, that 214 W Neely was occupied by Lee Harvey Oswald (he was unable to say where or how he got that information). Dallas Power & Light received no payment for electrical services at the apartment between January 16 and May 2 when it was cut.
• Richard Gilbride pointed out (to Greg Parker) the fact that Ruth Paine's calendar had "Marina" written down on March 20, and that she testified that she went to visit Marina that day and could possibly have taken her back to Irving.  Thus when the meter reader came, the sparsely furnished apartment would appear vacant and the small amount of electricity used would be put down to the owner coming by to fix the place up.
• None of the neighbors  recognized Oswald as having lived at that Neely address -  one couple interviewed (the Friddles) were certain the young couple who did live there for a short time in April-May had two children. Baby Rachel was not born until October of 1963, so whomever the Friddles spotted occasionally at 214 W. Neely, it could not have been the classic, intact "Oswald" family as we know it. Mr and Mrs Marvin Friddle were close neighbors and told the FBI that they didn't know Oswald, and for a short time during April and May, a young couple occupied the top apartment at 214 West Neely.
• The only documented evidence of Lee's residence is a questionable pay stub found during a search of thew apartment after the assassination. The pay stub was found at the same time as the (planted) bus transfer and belonged to a former resident of 214 W. Neely., James A. Jackson, an employee of American Bakery Company.  Jackson had lived at 214 West Neely Street for about nine months, and thereafter moved until July 1963, when he and his wife separated. Jackson said he had no idea how Lee Harvey Oswald came into possession of a paycheck stub, which apparently belonged to him (he did not recall ever losing one).  No rental records were ever obtained by any of the investigating authorities.
• 3519 Fairmount is the address of Gary Taylor who was married to George DeMohrenschildt's daughter ... the address appears nowhere in Oswald's official biography. Taylor denied Oswald ever lived with him. In addition to Oswald writing the 3519 Fairmount address on the back of his Leslie Welding checks, he also had the address listed on his Employee ID card at Jaggers Chiles Stovall. 
   

And others (e.g. Steve Thomas)  believe that it was Marina who ordered the rifle.  Joachim Joesten's "Marina Oswald"  speculates about Marina's complicity in setting up Lee.  Some relive that the signatures on the rifle order are Marina's.  As Steve Thomas pointed out,  Lee and Marina had only been married for 6 months when they took separate vacations in 1962 (and she returned to Russia, 600 miles away). 

Aint love grand?  

Jim

I'm not sure anyone can ever answer those questions.   All I can say (based on the work done by Ed LeDoux, Greg Parker and others) is that something seems fishy about the West Neely address.   If I were to speculate, I'd say that Gary Taylor 'ordered the weapons.  And that Marina actively helped in the setup of Lee (a priori).  Here are some interesting tidbits:

• October 1962: Marina and June move in with Gary and Alexandra Taylor (de Mohrenschildt’s daughter) at 3519 Fairmont (Apt #12), Dallas, for 4 days. 

• Gary Taylor, the estranged son-in-law, testified before the Warren Commission. He stated that he came by the Neely apartment one afternoon, when Lee was at work:

Mr. JENNER. Why did you go there?  TAYLOR. Just for a friendly visit. Marina was at home. She – her English had improved enough for her to get across to me a few ideas ... I did inform Marina of my impending divorce and – uh – in other words, telling her that Mrs. Taylor and I were no longer living together and we had separated.”  

• Oswald used Gary Taylor’s address to take out a post office box where the infamous Mannlicher rifle was sent.  At the end of his WC questioning, Taylor was asked if he had any further comments that might help the Commission: 

"Well," he said, "the only thing that occurred to me was that -- uh -- and I guess it was from the beginning -- that if there was any assistance or plotters in the assassination that it was, in my opinion, most probably the DeMohrenschildt’s."    

Gene