Michael Hogan
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Living History Series: Buell Wesley Frazier
Saturday, Jul 13 2:00p to 3:00p
Dallas, TX
The Living History series links the past to the present through individuals who witnessed the assassination of President John F. Kennedy or other historic events of the 1960s. An employee of the Texas School Book Depository, Frazier occasionally drove Lee Harvey Oswald to work, including Nov. 22, 1963. Frazier witnessed the assassination and was extensively questioned by Dallas investigators.
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From The Dallas Morning News:
JFK and Texas' John Connally shared a fateful day and common past
by Alan Peppard
March 30, 2013
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...Paul's reply did not even offer a comment on these stories which indicate a clear pattern of fabrication.
http://dcsnipersinca...dc-snipers.html
http://911terrorists...99.blogspot.ca/
http://thetruezodiac...-come-true.html
I can see why Paul would want to avoid them. He has too much invested in the Terry, Mississippi story.
Michael, you're mistaken about how much I have invested in any story.
No Paul. You're mistaken.
I quantified your investment by noting your refusal to comment on her other stories which are obviously the product of a fertile imagination. Those have a direct bearing on the credibility of her KKK story.
A story that you've championed and encouraged since the thread's inception.
As for the idea that the KKK (which has been responsible for countless atrocities in the USA from the late 19th through the late 20th century) might have had an interest in the JFK assassination -- anybody who doubts that should be regarded as ostrich-like, IMHO.
The plausibility of KKK involvement in the JFK assassination is logical and fairly obvious, IMHO.
What a pusillanimous statement. Can you show where I've ever indicated that the KKK had no interest in the JFK assassination?
You persist in introducing distractions in preference to commenting on these stories which have a direct relationship to Williams' credibility.
Basically, you're refraining from owning what you've written to her and about her as it pertains to her distinctly unique and unsupportable assertions.
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Interesting that it says "LEE" in handwritting... when if we are to accept Armstrong's premise... HARVEY here is making an interesting statement....
B, do you know when he got the bracelet and whether HE engraves it or it was done for him by ???
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Paul's reply was accompanied by his customary geniality but true to the pattern of a debater, he avoids the nuts and bolts
of the issues by employing distracting irrelevancies when he is unable to defend his position with data or logic.
Paul Trejo's reply to Lee Farley is just another example of the above:
Lee, if only your skill in research was as nimble as your skill in stand-up comedy...
In fact, the plausibility of the involvement of the KKK in many of the major crimes of the 20th century is a sociological reality.
This fact alone gives some weight to the perspective offered by Terri Williams.
Add to this the JFK research done on the extremist right-wing in the USA (which includes the KKK) and an objective researcher (who is interested in more than a career in comedy) ought to be willing to take a deeper look into reports from the KKK perspective -- reports which are rare and hard-to-find because the KKK is a secret society.
Terri Williams brings eye-witness, anecdotal evidence to the table, Lee, rather than a professorship from Oxford. Yet some people can only respect the high and mighty -- oh, well.
Lots of people bring only their eye-witness and anecdotal (and valuable) evidence to the JFK research table; like Terri Williams, Harry Dean and Ron Lewis -- to name just a few. They aren't Oxford professors, but they have a piece of the truth that we seek.
Using discernment to evaluate the precise measure of that truth is a task for the outstanding researcher -- and stand up comedy is a task for class clowns.
Paul's reply did not even offer a comment on these stories which indicate a clear pattern of fabrication.
http://dcsnipersinca...dc-snipers.html
http://911terrorists...99.blogspot.ca/
http://thetruezodiac...-come-true.html
I can see why Paul would want to avoid them. He has too much invested in the Terry, Mississippi story.
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I've followed this thread with interest from the start and I really hope this does not degenerate into a mud sling -
I too think Lee is an outstanding researcher but it does not stop me seeing value in this thread - and Lee's 'comedy' is not the stuff of clowns, it is sharp, cutting and very well observed.
Yes there is much about Terri's accounts that raises doubts (especially when looked at collectively) but non the less, the testimony offered re the KKK seems plausible (if looked at in isolation) and worthy of investigation. I would love to see a good investigative journalist get hold of this. There is a story here that could be significant even if it takes a very different turn from that presented by Terri.
So - Lee has made comment (which did need to be said) and Paul has responded. So lets just get on with research now before this becomes another moon landings, twin-towers conspiracy level debate, which to some would be less believable then Terri's claims here.
Lindsay, if you're going to lecture posters on how to conduct themselves I think it would be fair to say who it is you're speaking to or about.
If it's Lee and Paul, I think both of them are capable of governing their own behaviour.
Frankly, I found Paul Trejo's comment that Terri Williams could enlighten us to be condescending and insulting.
In my opinion, the few responses on this thread to what has all the earmarks of a hoax have been relatively understated and restrained.
The testimony (if that's what you want to call it) re the KKK does not seem plausible on many different levels. Since you believe otherwise, I have no interest in changing your mind.
You say this story raises doubts? http://911terrorists...99.blogspot.ca/
That's a mild way of putting it, as far as I'm concerned.
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Lee Farley is an outstanding researcher. My first inclination was to respond in detail to Paul's latest post, but since it was directed to Lee, I'll leave that to him for now.
Does anyone else really believe this crap?
http://911terrorists...99.blogspot.ca/
Thanks to Lee for bringing this to light.
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According to Randy Benson, The Searchers is due for a Spring 2013 release.
http://www.indyweek....ent?oid=3192079
Back in November, Bill Kelly posted this article on his blog.
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People like Aynesworth and Perry now babysit Wesley. And feature him as the guy who saw Oswald with the paper bag. When in fact, that was not what happened.
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Jeff's article includes the following source link..
I read that before I posted. I presumed others did as well. That Associated Press source wrote:
"Their song 'The Sound of Silence' from the aftermath of President Kennedy’s assassination 50 years ago this year had initially flopped — but it became a hit
after it was re-edited as a single"
Morley's conclusion that the song was a response to the JFK assassination is not quite warranted.
That story was all over the news wires.
http://artsbeat.blog...nd-the-ramones/
http://www.usatoday....ngress/2002287/
Here is someone else who claimed it was "written in response to the assassination of President John F Kennedy."
He may have based his conclusion on the same Associated Press article that Jeff Morley referenced.
http://blogs.voanews...-rock-and-roll/
It almost goes without saying that internet news sources are not always reliable.
As you well know Larry, it's one thing to have a source. It's another thing to apply logic and fact check that source.
If someone can show that Paul Simon ever indicated that writing The Sound of Silence was a response to the JFK assassination, that would be a credible source.
And lastly, if it had been a response to the JFK assassination, chances are we would have heard of it long before now.
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From the Irving Heritage Society website:
The next General Meeting will be on Wednesday, March 27, at the Irving Central Library Auditorium. The general membership meeting will begin at 6:45PM
followed by a special program, “Remembrances of November 22 – the Irving Connection.”
Speakers include former Irving resident Buell Frazier, who worked with Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository, and gave him a ride to work on 11/22/63.
The public is invited to attend the meeting.
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I suspect that this public school disaster is probably the result of the American people continuing to massively resist Brown v. The Board of Education. This issue runs far deeper than we like to collectively admit. Here is a true collective engram.
The massive resistance to Brown -- even today -- suggests to me the sort of social energy with the actual power to kill JFK.
I think Larry Hancock's response to Paul Trejo's post was both tactful and accurate.
Paul's reply was accompanied by his customary geniality but true to the pattern of a debater, he avoids the nuts and bolts
of the issues by employing distracting irrelevancies when he is unable to defend his position with data or logic.
I like Paul, but the confirmation biases inherent in his posts are too tedious to deal with on an ongoing basis.
Here is another example:
.... He was a rich kid (like Mitt Romney) who lived in a bubble, and before Martin Luther King, Jr., JFK probably never met a Black American who wasn't a butler or a janitor.
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Weird how I did not know this until today.
In my opinion Jefferson Morely's claim that "Simon & Garfunkel’s 'The Sound of Silence' was a response to JFK’s assassination" is overstated and misleading.
According to the website Songfacts, Simon said this in an interview with Terry Gross of NPR:
I think about songs that it's not just what the words say but what the melody says and what the sound says. My thinking is that if you don't have the right melody, it really doesn't matter what you have to say, people don't hear it. They only are available to hear when the sound entrances and makes people open to the thought. Really the key to 'The Sound Of Silence' is the simplicity of the melody and the words, which are youthful alienation. It's a young lyric, but not bad for a 21-year-old. It's not a sophisticated thought, but a thought that I gathered from some college reading material or something. It wasn't something that I was experiencing at some deep, profound level - nobody's listening to me, nobody's listening to anyone - it was a post-adolescent angst, but it had some level of truth to it and it resonated with millions of people. Largely because it had a simple and singable melody."
http://www.songfacts...tail.php?id=796
(Apologies for the cut and paste yellow background)
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Rare thing to see the truth about Kennedy's presidency on the Guardian's website. Take a bow, you patriot, you.
Americans have their own Guardian (Express).
Coincidentally to Paul's observation and right on cue (from today's issue):
Perhaps you’re even skeptical of our own government. And who could blame you, especially after the American government insults its citizen’s intelligence by asking them to believe that cockamamie magic bullet theory. A theory that should have been dead on arrival, but in order to pin President John F. Kennedy’s assassination on Lee Harvey Oswald is (sic) was devised. Lone gunman my a**. OK, let me settle down and get to my point.
http://guardianlv.co...nasa-scientist/
From The Guardian Express website:
This website was first conceived as a print newspaper to be distributed in and around the Las Vegas, Nevada area. While originally founded by DiMarkco Chandler, the company began to emerge as a real media player when Bonito Sahagun decided to provide his professional expertise to complete the partnership now known as Frackle Media Group.
The Guardian Express newspaper, led by Frackle Media moved away from printing newspapers after 22 consecutive publication weeks and began to focus their efforts online.
Since its February 2012 launch, The Guardian Express has turned the corner from start-up to a legitimate online newspaper.
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Robin,
I don't pretend to be able to decipher definitive things in these photos. I'm no photo expert. My point was that reputable witnesses most definitely described a bullet hole (even noting one could put a pencil through it). Also, we know that the windsheild was replaced and the crime scene corrupted. Just as the figure in the doorway doesn't have to be Oswald for there to be a conspiracy, there doesn't have to be hole in the windshield for there to be a conspiracy.
But I feel strongly that neither issue has been resolved.
Only if one makes the conscious decision to never let anything be resolved... Dudman wrote an article in the 80's in which he claimed he never got a good look at the windshield and was mistaken when he said he saw a hole in it.
It's kinda like the Parkland witnesses... Someone says they saw something but then realizes that what they said they saw fails to fit the official story, or at least what others have claimed. They then change their story, or back away from the certainty in which they previously expressed themselves.....
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Dave Ratcliffe recently appeared on Black Op Radio and told Len Osanic that he has finished digitizing Martin Schotz' iconic book History Will Not Absolve Us.
Ratcliffe obtained the author's permission. The hyperlinks are outstanding.
http://www.ratical.o...U/contents.html
http://www.blackopra...chives2013.html
Ratcliffe also digitized Schotz' 1998 COPA speech: http://ratical.org/r...OPA1998EMS.html
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Guido van Rijn teaches English in the Netherlands and is considered considered to be one of the world's foremost Blues historians. He's authored several books on topical Blues, related to corresponding terms of American Presidents. Kennedy's Blues is a very good read, although van Rijn seems to believe the Warren Report.
From Amazon:
Kennedy's Blues: African American Blues and Gospel Songs on JFK collects in a single volume the blues and gospel songs written by African Americans about the presidency of John F. Kennedy and offers a close analysis of Kennedy's hold upon the African American imagination. These blues and gospel songs have never been transcribed and analyzed in a systematic way, so this volume provides a hitherto untapped source on the perception of one of the most intriguing American presidents.
After eight years of Republican rule the young Democratic president received a warm welcome from African Americans. However, with the Cold War military draft and the slow pace of civil rights measures, inspiration temporarily gave way to impatience.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Medgar Evers, the March on Washington, the groundbreaking civil rights bill--all found their way into blues and gospel songs. The many blues numbers devoted to the assassination and the president's legacy are evidence of JFK's near-canonization by African Americans. Blues historian Guido van Rijn shows that John F. Kennedy became a mythical hero to blues songwriters despite what was left unaccomplished.
Guido van Rijn is teacher of English at Kennemer Lyceum in Overveen, the Netherlands. His previous books include The Truman and Eisenhower Blues: African American Blues and Gospel Songs, 1945-1960.
http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/1604738588
In addition, van Rijn founded Agram Blues, which features digitally remastered Blues recordings from the FDR administration up to present. They are available from
van Rijn for fifteen euros each. The sound quality is very good and the recordings should be a must-listen for any serious aficionado of topical Blues.
http://home.tiscali....nnedy-blues.htm
Kennedy's Blues, President Johnson's Blues and Martin Luther King's Blues contain some particularly powerful and poignant recordings, in my estimation.
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Max Holland, in conjunction with Judicial Watch, recently filed suit against the National Archives and Records Administration. (NARA)
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Ronnie Dugger: LBJ, The Texas Observer and Me
August 22, 2008
'None of us knew it yet, but we Americans were about to be trapped in the history that Lyndon Johnson would make'
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One of the first to suspect Walker.......
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Michael, I've come across it ;
http://jfk.hood.edu/...nal/Item 24.pdf
but never pursued it; if the folks i believe were involved were, they had their own resources - trusted resources, not
folks like this. If the offer were made it could have been for many reasons,
Anyway, not something i pursued. Larry
Thanks Larry. I don't blame you for not pursuing it.
I'd seen that Tattler article in the Weisberg archives. The sources in Joan Mellen's book are memos from Sciambra to Garrison.
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Eric Norden's The Death of a President was one of the very best of the early essays. What follows is an excerpt of Norden's article that
appeared in the January 1964 issue of The Minority of One.
Even on such a basic question as the type of gun used to kill the President, there is no unanimity of press or police opinion. First reports from the scene quoted police as describing the murder weapon as a German Mauser. Dallas Police Captain Patrick Gannaway reported on the day of the assassination that a Mauser rifle was found on a fifth floor landing of the Texas Textbook Depository, the building from which Kennedy was believed shot. Ed Wallace of the N.Y. World-Telegram & Sun reported a day later that “the rifle which killed the President was a 7.65mm. Mauser, a military weapon made in Germany long before World War Two, first produced in 1891, and made obsolete by other Mauser models adopted in 1895 and 1909.” According to Wallace, “the older Mauser was a highly accurate military weapon, and the rifle used yesterday may have been chosen because it had passed through many hands and tracing ownership would be made more difficult than weapons of later manufacture…” (N.Y. World-Telegram & Sun, Nov. 23, 1963.) A United Press International dispatch dated November 23 was equally unequivocal on the make and caliber of the murder weapon. “Police also found the imported rifle with the telescopic sight which fired the fatal bullet into Kennedy’s brain…The 7.65 (roughly 30-caliber) bolt action Mauser German army rifle with four-power sniperscope was found tucked among books.” On November 24, the New York Post referred to the assassination weapon as “the high-power 7.65 Mauser rifle which fired two 2½-inch long bullets into the Chief Executive…”
Initial reports from Dallas appeared unanimous as to the type of rifle used in the assassination. But within two days of the first announcement by Dallas police that the rifle used to kill the President and left behind in the Textbook Depository was a German Mauser, the story abruptly changed. Dallas authorities began referring to the murder weapon as an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano. Captain Will Fritz, head of the Dallas police homicide bureau, said the rifle was Italian and “of an unusual, undetermined caliber.” (N.Y. Times, November 23, 1963.) Was the discrepancy a result of the near-panic that swept over police and press alike within the first frantic hours of the President’s death? Or could it be that a gun had to be supplied which could be readily traced to Oswald? The New York Herald-Tribune reported on November 24, 1963 that “it was Mrs. Oswald who told police early yesterday that her husband owned a rifle that was the same as the Italian 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano used to shoot the President.” The New York Times reported on November 25 that “the bullets were fired by a 6.5 mm. Italian made Mannlicher-Carcano rifle…the rifle was traced to Oswald.” Was the fact that Oswald owned an Italian rifle the reason why the first, minutely-detailed descriptions of the weapon as a German Mauser were dropped, and the weapon characterized henceforth as a Mannlicher-Carcano?
Even if we accept the murder weapon as a Mannlicher-Carcano, another question arises. How could the gun in question, a Model 1938, 6.5-mm. bolt action rifle, be operated quickly enough to fire three shots into the President’s car within five seconds? The rapidity of the shots led most observers at the scene of the assassination to assume that an automatic weapon had been used. A Mannlicher-Carcano must be laboriously loaded with one shell at a time into the chamber before firing, unless a charger, or clip, is first loaded with six cartridges and then inserted into the action of the rifle, thus permitting more rapid firing. There is no indication from Dallas authorities that the alleged murder weapon was equipped with such a charger, in which case it would have been impossible for the assassin to snap off three shots at the President and Governor Connally in such rapid succession. While there has been little speculation on this problem in the United States, the European press openly doubts that a Mannlicher-Carcano could have been used as the assassination weapon. The Italian newspaper Corriere Lombardo of Milan wrote on November 26 that if the Model 38 Mannlicher-Carcano were used and that if more than one shot were fired “there must have been a second attacker.” In France, Paris Jour declared flatly that a non-automatic rifle could not have been used to pump two bullets into the President and one into Texas Governor John B. Connally within a matter of seconds. In Vienna, Hubert Hammerer, the Olympics champion shot, stated that the initial shot could have come from a bolt-action weapon, but according to a Reuters dispatch, he did not believe that one man could have fired three shots in a few seconds with the weapon used. There is thus considerable doubt that the weapon held by the Dallas police was, or even could have been, the weapon used to assassinate President Kennedy.
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Robin's Willis photo is the man supposedly identified as Hicks.
Pat, I spent a good bit of time on Hicks at one point...he ended up doing a stretch in a mental institution (Fort Supply, no not an Arny base,
a hospital named for a former cavalry post) for alcohol abuse, later after release he made calls to the FBI from bars....its a long, sad story,
When Garrison brought him to New Orleans, Hicks went out drinking and brought a couple of guys he met in a bar back to his
room and got beat up in an ensuing brawl.
I don't find him at all credible but he told such entertaining stories that I doubt he will ever be given up as a figure in the conspiracy.
I'm pretty sure the radio thing came from somebody else not Hicks. But as I said, his story evolved from supposedly having
seen a suspicious figure behind a car off Elm to getting details from someone in a bar. It's been years since I looked into him, like
most from that period he didn't make the cut....well my cut at least.....grin..
-- Larry
Hi Larry. It's always a pleasure to read your posts.
Did you ever research Joseph Cooper, a Baton Rouge policeman whose story was definitely a strange one?
If so, could you post your comments here: http://educationforu...255#entry269137
Thanks Larry.
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Once upon a time Raymond Carroll told David Von Pein that he was closer to the truth than most (EF) members.
It's a shame to see these two devotees of the truth at odds with each other.
Uh, no, Ray, it’s called the truth, for I don’t know the answer. I didn’t record the conversation nor did he. So the real translation is:Ray Carroll is a nut, and I won’t waste my time on him anymore.
Go Gary!
David:
I used to be under the impression that you were a civilized person.
JFK and the Ku Klux Klan
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
John Simkin started this thread because Terri Williams originally posted her KKK story on a Jim Garrison thread. John decided to move it by starting a new thread.
This thread is about Terri Williams and her story. Anything that speaks to the lack of believability of that story is on topic and is certainly appropriate to post here.
There are a number of other Forum threads which discuss the Ku Klux Klan.
http://educationforu...?showtopic=3294
http://educationforu...?showtopic=4265
http://educationforu...?showtopic=6553