Ashton Gray

I was trying to clarify the position of the safe house. You had said it could be on Oak Cliff Blvd.

No, I did not say that. I've said absolutely nothing at all anywhere about any "Oak Cliff Blvd." Please quit misrepresenting me. Please quit trying to fix something that ain't broken.

Having taken a sufficient walk, I've now edited this section of this post to attempt to make it more civilized. I still don't feel very civilized about it.

To recap:

The country club at issue is named THE OAK CLIFF COUNTRY CLUB. That says nothing at all about any "Oak Cliff Blvd."

An entrance to the OAK CLIFF COUNTRY CLUB appears on the map to be on RED BIRD LANE. That also has nothing at all to do with any "Oak Cliff Blvd."

A street that has been associated in the record with both the OAK CLIFF COUNTRY CLUB and the safe house near the country club (which I arbitrarily have named "the Country Club Safe House") is BAR HARBOR DRIVE. That also has nothing whatsoever to do with any "Oak Cliff Blvd."

That's why I wish to God you'd quit "correcting" me on something I've never said at all, while simultaneously confusing the hell out of what I've invested a good deal of work in trying to UNconfuse.

I also was reacting to what seems like put downs...are you aware you sometimes come across that way even if unintended.

Yes, I know: I'm a royal ass. It's all been thoroughly documented and agreed upon, and I understand is being cobbled as we speak into a bipartisan bill for Congress, and may even have a chance as an amendment to the Constitution. And we've all got our crosses to bear. Can we get back to actual correct locations of the safe houses, and wipe all the personal stuff off on the door mat outside? Please?

I genuinely appreciate what you've contributed to this effort. I genuinely appreciate the risks you've taken on your own initiative to unearth this information. But this thread is no place for any of us to get into a pissing contest about who's lost or risked what. It's irrelevant. We're each here by our own hand, and we're here because we care enough to have risked or lost whatever we each have thought it worth. And I salute you for it. And all of us owe a salute to the roster of the dead who didn't make it this far for everything of value they have left in the record. I don't know: maybe that's why I'm here trying to make some advance while I'm able.

Ashton

No, The safe house was not on Oak Cliff, but the official address of the Country Club was.

Peter, at no time, anywhere, have I said that the safe house I am calling the "Country Club Safe House," or any other safe house, was "on Oak Cliff." I started this thread to clarify and focus information and reduce confusion about these safe houses and their locations, not add more confusion. Nor does it appear to me that the Country Club itself is "on Oak Cliff." Oak Cliff is the name of the area, not a street that has been put into the discussion anywhere.

I personally would be more grateful than I easily an express if you would take the time to read what I actually write, and write carefully and thoughtfully any further information so that it does not add yet another layer of confusion while I industriously am attempting to strip the confusion off of the subject. If you don't have an exact address for the "Country Club Safe House," I think we've got it approximately located enough currently so that additional "it wasn't somewhere it wasn't" comments are adding nothing at all—except egregiously more confusion.

Now attempting to work around a non-quotable response you posted to something else I had said, I had said:

• THE SPORTATORIUM SAFE HOUSE
  The Dallas Sportatorium was at 1000 S. Industrial Boulevard in Dallas, at the intersection of Cadiz Street on the outskirts of the Oak Cliff area. It is no longer there.
  The information on this safe house comes from Peter Lemkin, citing Plumlee, who says that it was used very shortly after the assassination by "Sergio," who had been with Tosh Plumlee in Dealey Plaza at the time of the murder. The supplied "reason" for Sergio going into this safe house just after the murder was "to change clothes." This is absurd on its face; Plumlee and Sergio went from there to the Country Club Safe House.
  

And you responded:

I'm not totally sure it is absurd that he went into the Sportatorium, whether or not to change clothes...

Again, I never said at all that it was "absurd that he went into the Sportatorium," so completely unnecessary dunnage is being added to this thread. I said: The supplied "reason" for Sergio going into this safe house just after the murder was "to change clothes." This is absurd on its face... ."

That's my opinion: that the SUPPLIED REASON is absurd on its face. And I hereby retract the sideline comment completely, so I pray there will be no more space or time wasted on it.

Ashton

Cliff, throw Allen Dulles in there. For whom did he work, really? And, all the names you mentioned were loyal to Dulles.

I believe all it took was one conversation between one (very rich and powerful) man and Dulles and the whole thing swung into being.

Again, for whom did Allen Dulles work?

You speak sooth, beardless youth.

Terry said it very well above. Who does the CIA really represent? Who does the U.S. military really represent?

For the extremely wealthy there are no consequences - except, that is, between them and God.

I don't believe now that it really had anything to do with Cuba.

Of course it didn't. Never had diddly to do with Cuba. Nor was the Bay of Pigs "invasion" for any of the reasons the CIA ever trotted out. Nor was there ever any CIA program to assassinate Castro. All long-after-the-fact dog-and-pony-show patented CIA limited hangout BS to cover what they really had been doing. If anybody thinks one syllable in this paragraph is sarcastic or facetious in the slightest, better pause and think again. Real hard.

It was a battle for control of the government - Cuba was a backdrop just like a lot of the other stuff. JFK was too smart for them, and they (the eastern established ruling class) would not allow everything they had to be taken away. Not one inch. Jack, Bobby, and then Ted? No way.

Also, I think part of this was personal. JFK was slaughtered in public. There were so many other ways they could've taken him out. He dared to take on the powers that be in a very reckless way -- very much like he lived the rest of his life.

The Rockefellers

The Morgans

The Lodges

Dean Acheson

Walt Rostow

The Bundys

Bankers and the War Party.

That's where I am today. FWIW.

Ahhhhhhh, I love the smell of CIA disinformation going up in smoke like a tire fire in the morning.

You the man, Stan.

Ashton

...In the Zapruder film at Z313, a piece of bone is already in flight a good 3.5 to 4 feet above the President's head from Zapruder's perspective. Zapruder's elevated view will make the piece of bone look closer to JFK than it really is as compared to seeing it more at ground level like Nix was. ...in the Nix film is little more than a foot from the President's head...

I will opine that references to bone fragments being a given "number of feet" from Kennedy's head (or from anything), in either film, at any given captured moment, assumes known angles of flight for such fragments that simply are not in evidence, making it anything and everything but "simple perspective," and introducing "measurements" that have no basis in fact as a "proof' against other well-demonstrated sync point analyses that have much to recommend them.

Ashton

Gary Mack has sent me two private messages regarding the reported 1026 N. Beckley safe house, on the same property as the house where Oswald was renting a room at the time of the JFK and Tippet murders.

I'm on public record making it clear that I do not accept information on private lines that I cannot make public. Since the two messages from Gary are essentially a continuation of his points, I've taken the liberty of combining them here:

• Ashton,
  The "safe house" behind 1026 North Beckley was, and still is, nothing more than a separate apartment building at that address. In 1963, those rooms were rented by the owners, Mr. & Mrs. A.C. Johnson; they had something like 17 people living there and in their family home (including Oswald). Today, the Johnson's grandaughter still rents out rooms in the back building. If one chooses to believe Plumlee, Marrs and White, then they must add the Johnson family to the huge list of plotters.
  ...I've long been baffled by this silly "safe house" story. As I understand it, Plumlee and Marrs either drove by and recognized it from the road or just walked past the house. Plumlee immediatley identified it as a "safe house," but how? Why? Did it have Safe written on it? A check mark on the porch? What could possibly have told Plumlee or anyone else what the house really was? No matter. Rhetorical question, for it was just part of the Johnson's rooming house, which they had started together back in the 40s. The details are in their testimony, of course.
  Gary
  

I'll only observe that Gary omits reference by Plumlee of having been inside the reported safe house at the back of the property, of having seen Oswald inside it, of having carved his initials inside one of the buildings on that property, and of safe house in back being connected to "Hernandez" and the "Alpha 66" group, about which I'd like to see more information in this thread, since they reportedly were connected to Miami operations.

Ashton

I've been piecing together a map of the reported safe houses and some other relevant locations in and near the Oak Cliff area of Dallas.

This map at this stage is not great, but I thought it would be better to have some kind of visual reference for all these locations than none, so am uploading it, warts and all. There are a couple of scale indications down in the lower part of the map if anyone wants to plot distances between some of these points of interest:

Ashton

This means that N23 is about 2/10th's of a frame time after Z313.

This cannot be if N23 is the spatter shot because the spatter and bones flying from JFK are CLOSER to his head than seen on the Zapruder film.

Bill Miller

Maybe we could substitute "is problematic" for "cannot be," and possibly take relative angles, relative light angles, and other factors into account to see if such problems might resolve.

Ashton

Below is the updated list of safe houses in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas, reflecting my understanding of the clarifications and expansions several people have contributed, plus further research I've done in compiling a map of the relevant areas that will be posted later.

I also have updated the first message in this thread to reflect the new information.

My deep gratitude to everyone who has helped bring this important issue into focus and who has contributed in any way.

Here is the list as it stands on Sunday, 17 December 2006:

• THE 1026 NORTH BECKLEY STREET SAFE HOUSE
  Jack White has supplied an address for this safe house as being 1026 North Beckley. That is exactly the same address as the rooming house in which Lee Harvey Oswald was renting a room at the time of the assassination. Jack says that the safe house is a separate building on the same property, in back of the main house, that it faces an alley, and was "only about 50 feet from Oswald's room." Jack says he was taken there and shown the place by Jim Marrs, who had been shown it by Tosh Plumlee
  Tosh Plumlee has said the following in pertinent part: "When I later learned that Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him...in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination." In another place, Plumlee said: "I went to another safe house and that safe house was directly behind where Oswald had rented a room, in the alley, and I carved my initials on the draining board up there at that time and that was a gun running operation and Oswald was renting the front house. I saw him there briefly but did not talk to him."
  In another reference to this North Beckley Street Safe House, Plumlee introduces a reference to "Zang's [sic] Blvd" in association with "Hernandez" and "Alpha 66," something which caused some confusion temporarily. But N. Zang Boulevard diagonally intersects N. Beckley Street very close to 1026 N. Beckley Street, so this is being interpreted as a cross-street reference to the same safe house. [NOTE: As Zang Boulevard continues northeast from N. Beckely Street, it becomes Houston Street Viaduct, which becomes S. Houston Street, through Dealey Plaza.]
  THE COUNTRY CLUB SAFE HOUSE
  So far there is no specific known address for this safe house. Tosh Plumlee is on record saying it was "in Oak Cliff right next to the [Oak Cliff] Country Club on Bar Harbor Drive." Peter Lemkin indicates that he has seen this safe house, but he says that it was "a few streets away" from the Oak Cliff Country Club. Since the Oak Cliff Country Club appears to be on W. Red Bird Lane, the reference to Bar Harbor Drive may be the street the safe house was on, since Bar Harbor Drive appears on a map to be "several streets away" from the entrance to the Oak Cliff Country Club. An address is needed for it. Peter Lemkin suggests that Jim Marrs has an actual address. So far Jim Marrs hasn't joined the discussion on this.
  The Country Club Safe House is where Plumlee said he went first after arriving in Dallas at Dallas Executive Airport—which Plumlee uniformly calls "Redbird Airport"—and then went to again after the assassination before returning to the airport to depart. The airport that Plumlee calls "Redbird" is on W. Red Bird (two words) Lane, diagonally northwest across W. Red Bird Lane from the Oak Cliff Country Club, where S. Polk Street intersects W. Red Bird Lane.
  THE SPORTATORIUM SAFE HOUSE
  The Dallas Sportatorium was at 1000 S. Industrial Boulevard in Dallas, at the intersection of Cadiz Street on the outskirts of the Oak Cliff area. It is no longer there.
  The information on this safe house comes from Peter Lemkin, citing Plumlee, who says that it was used very shortly after the assassination by "Sergio," who had been with Tosh Plumlee in Dealey Plaza at the time of the murder. The supplied "reason" for Sergio going into this safe house just after the murder was "to change clothes." This is absurd on its face; Plumlee and Sergio went from there to the Country Club Safe House.
  Lemkin goes on to say: "The Sportatorium was yet another catagory - places not a home that could be used to hide, blend-in, find a contact, ask for help, change clothes, use as a dead drop, know that you were safe for a short time, hide a weapon, pick up money or weapon, shower, change clothes, etc. et al...even leave a dead body no questions asked, if needed."
  THE HARLANDALE SAFE HOUSE
  According to information in a County of Dallas Sheriff's Department Supplementary Investigation Report of 23 November 1963, there was a house at 3128 Harlandale Avenue in which "some Cubans had been having meetings on the week ends" for several months "and were possibly connected with the 'Freedom for Cuba Party' of which Oswald was a member."
  Plumlee makes an oblique and very unclear reference to Harlandale (which in the transcript of his interview is misspelled "Harlendale") in the context of discussing several safe houses.
  In an addendum to the Supplementary Investigation Report cited above, but dated 26 November 1963, it says: "I learned today that sometime between seven days before the president was shot and the day after he was shot these Cubans moved from this house. My informant [unnamed] stated that the subject Oswald had been to this house before."
  Thanks to Michael Hogan for supplying pointers to the available records on this place.
  THE ZOO SAFE HOUSE
  Here is everything that I have on this purported Zoo Safe House, and it is pretty vague in the way it's presented by Tosh Plumlee: "...In '62 when I came back into Dallas area, that, through the Dallas Cubans...there was a safe house here in Dallas, Oak Cliff, two of 'em. There was a small two bedroom frame type house that was located in Oak Cliff not far from the zoo where the old inner urban track used to go through. I mean there's a highline [sic—?] down through there now, at that place..."
  On maps there is the indication of a railroad track not far at all southeast of the location of the Dallas Zoo, which is at 650 R L Thornton Freeway (35E), at the Marsalis Avenue exit. It must be noted that this is just a few blocks from where Dallas Police officer J.D. Tippet was murdered.
  THE TRUE SAFE HOUSE
  There are persistent rumors of a safe house purportedly run by a stripper with the nom de nude of "Tammi True." Any information that anyone can supply on this would be greatly appreciated.
  

Ashton

The primary goal of the JFK assassination was to establish a pre-text to invade Cuba.

For whom "to invade Cuba?" 'Cause after all that gore—"they" forgot to.

Ashton

"In debate, sometimes it's necessary to give as one gets, but rancor or contempt need not be—and should not be—at work, no matter how divisive issues might be. In fact, I see no point ever in debating anyone for whom one has a lack of respect."

________________________________________________________________________________

____

May this excerpt serve to explain my current state of in absentia.

Regards,

JG

Glad to see you took a deep breath and came back.

I notice that no one has posted a syllable of rebuttal to the timeline I posted in this thread.

Nor has anyone, in something like six months, posted a syllable of rebuttal to the exposés on the Watergate "first break-in" hoax and the "Pentagon Papers" CIA op.

I believe the "Controversial Issues in History" forum has made some of its own: truth has finally begun to supplant fiction. The momentum of the grossly-funded frauds will continue for some time, but will sink into the mire of their own lies eventually, probably without even a last pitiable little bubble. The truth will not be moved.

Ashton

Hi Ashton,

I'm no expert but I believe one safe house was on Harlendale in Oak Cliff I think. I am also interested in one supposed safe house which according to Richard Sprague in 'The Taking of America 1,2,3' was run by stripper Tammi True but it didn't give an exact location for where this was or a source for this info as far as I can remember.

Hi Francesca. Thanks.

On the Harlendale item, do you have a particular source for it? I ask because Plumlee mentions Harlendale, but in one of his patented "Plumlee Incomprehensibles." Here's the exact quote with Harlendale in it (which I edited out before, for reasons which I hope will be obvious):

• TOSH PLUMLEE: ...In '62 when I came back into Dallas area, that, through the Dallas Cubans over on, not Harlendale Street, but there was a "safe" house here in Dallas, Oak Cliff, two of'em.
  

You know, some days I send up a silent thanks that Plumlee is only trying to help, because the thought of what he might accomplish if he was trying to confuse things just scares the beejeezus out of me.

So there: it's "not Harlendale Street." Of course, it's not Alaska, or Wall Street, or the Eiffel Tower, or a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, either.

Whether or not that is some oblique reference to the existence of some other safe house that was on Harlendale Street is known only to Plumlee, God, and a few Oriental mystics. And they ain't talkin'.

Unless, of course, you have some other source for a Harlendale Street safe house. Then we're in bid'ness.

If you get any actual reference on the Tammi True lead, please post it.

Thanks again.

Ashton

This topic has been started specifically to list and identify as clearly and accurately as possible "safe houses" of intelligence agencies that were operational in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas during and around the time frame of the Kennedy assassination. This is not a catch-all topic for "Buildings and Architecture of Dallas That Might Have a Suspect Cachet." Please make contributions that are on-topic and informative.

EDIT NOTE: I will continue to edit with updates the list of safe houses immediately below to keep it as current as possible when new information is supplied in this thread. I'm am preserving all versions of the list, but I see no point in perpetuating here in the first message some of the early confusions that existed when this topic was started. My deep appreciation to all who have contributed to sorting this out. —Ashton

Here is the current list:

• THE 1026 NORTH BECKLEY STREET SAFE HOUSE
  Jack White has supplied an address for this safe house as being 1026 North Beckley. That is exactly the same address as the rooming house in which Lee Harvey Oswald was renting a room at the time of the assassination. Jack says that the safe house is a separate building on the same property, in back of the main house, that it faces an alley, and was "only about 50 feet from Oswald's room." Jack says he was taken there and shown the place by Jim Marrs, who had been shown it by Tosh Plumlee
  Tosh Plumlee has said the following in pertinent part: "When I later learned that Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him...in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination." In another place, Plumlee said: "I went to another safe house and that safe house was directly behind where Oswald had rented a room, in the alley, and I carved my initials on the draining board up there at that time and that was a gun running operation and Oswald was renting the front house. I saw him there briefly but did not talk to him."
  In another reference to this North Beckley Street Safe House, Plumlee introduces a reference to "Zang's [sic] Blvd" in association with "Hernandez" and "Alpha 66," something which caused some confusion temporarily. But N. Zang Boulevard diagonally intersects N. Beckley Street very close to 1026 N. Beckley Street, so this is being interpreted as a cross-street reference to the same safe house. [NOTE: As Zang Boulevard continues northeast from N. Beckely Street, it becomes Houston Street Viaduct, which becomes S. Houston Street, through Dealey Plaza.]
  THE COUNTRY CLUB SAFE HOUSE
  So far there is no specific known address for this safe house. Tosh Plumlee is on record saying it was "in Oak Cliff right next to the [Oak Cliff] Country Club on Bar Harbor Drive." Peter Lemkin indicates that he has seen this safe house, but he says that it was "a few streets away" from the Oak Cliff Country Club. Since the Oak Cliff Country Club appears to be on W. Red Bird Lane, the reference to Bar Harbor Drive may be the street the safe house was on, since Bar Harbor Drive appears on a map to be "several streets away" from the entrance to the Oak Cliff Country Club. An address is needed for it. Peter Lemkin suggests that Jim Marrs has an actual address. So far Jim Marrs hasn't joined the discussion on this.
  The Country Club Safe House is where Plumlee said he went first after arriving in Dallas at Dallas Executive Airport—which Plumlee uniformly calls "Redbird Airport"—and then went to again after the assassination before returning to the airport to depart. The airport that Plumlee calls "Redbird" is on W. Red Bird (two words) Lane, diagonally northwest across W. Red Bird Lane from the Oak Cliff Country Club, where S. Polk Street intersects W. Red Bird Lane.
  THE SPORTATORIUM SAFE HOUSE
  The Dallas Sportatorium was at 1000 S. Industrial Boulevard in Dallas, at the intersection of Cadiz Street on the outskirts of the Oak Cliff area. It is no longer there.
  The information on this safe house comes from Peter Lemkin, citing Plumlee, who says that it was used very shortly after the assassination by "Sergio," who had been with Tosh Plumlee in Dealey Plaza at the time of the murder. The supplied "reason" for Sergio going into this safe house just after the murder was "to change clothes." This is absurd on its face; Plumlee and Sergio went from there to the Country Club Safe House.
  Lemkin goes on to say: "The Sportatorium was yet another catagory - places not a home that could be used to hide, blend-in, find a contact, ask for help, change clothes, use as a dead drop, know that you were safe for a short time, hide a weapon, pick up money or weapon, shower, change clothes, etc. et al...even leave a dead body no questions asked, if needed."
  THE HARLANDALE SAFE HOUSE
  According to information in a County of Dallas Sheriff's Department Supplementary Investigation Report of 23 November 1963, there was a house at 3128 Harlandale Avenue in which "some Cubans had been having meetings on the week ends" for several months "and were possibly connected with the 'Freedom for Cuba Party' of which Oswald was a member."
  Plumlee makes an oblique and very unclear reference to Harlandale (which in the transcript of his interview is misspelled "Harlendale") in the context of discussing several safe houses.
  In an addendum to the Supplementary Investigation Report cited above, but dated 26 November 1963, it says: "I learned today that sometime between seven days before the president was shot and the day after he was shot these Cubans moved from this house. My informant [unnamed] stated that the subject Oswald had been to this house before."
  Thanks to Michael Hogan for supplying pointers to the available records on this place.
  THE ZOO SAFE HOUSE
  Here is everything that I have on this purported Zoo Safe House, and it is pretty vague in the way it's presented by Tosh Plumlee: "...In '62 when I came back into Dallas area, that, through the Dallas Cubans...there was a safe house here in Dallas, Oak Cliff, two of 'em. There was a small two bedroom frame type house that was located in Oak Cliff not far from the zoo where the old inner urban track used to go through. I mean there's a highline [sic—?] down through there now, at that place..."
  On maps there is the indication of a railroad track not far at all southeast of the location of the Dallas Zoo, which is at 650 R L Thornton Freeway (35E), at the Marsalis Avenue exit. It must be noted that this is just a few blocks from where Dallas Police officer J.D. Tippet was murdered.
  THE TRUE SAFE HOUSE
  There are persistent rumors of a safe house purportedly run by a stripper with the nom de nude of "Tammi True." Any information that anyone can supply on this would be greatly appreciated.
  

That's all I can determine with any relative certainty so far.

My hope is that others will come along to clarify and amplify, not further muddy the waters on these safe houses.

Ashton Gray

But now I'm developing my own theory on Gary Mack - the trivial items that he makes the most effort to conform with the party line are the weakest links in the chain that should be looked at more closely.

Therefore the details of DPD #107 are probably significant and we can't leave it to DM to tell us what he's found down that alley.

Nor can we allow the Curious Case of the DPD Communications Secretary Who Went to the Celebrity Ball to slide out of sight.

How did her invitation arrive before the mail that day?

Ashton

I must agree with Dawn. The CIA was indebted to the men who created it

and used it as their own "private army" around the world. Entities such as

"United Fruit" come to mind. Google UNITED FRUIT CIA to see what I mean.

Jack

An observation with a great deal of reason and rationale to back it up.

Ashton

Tosh's safe house is at the rear of 1026 North Beckley, facing the alley,

only about 50 feet from Oswald's room. It has never been properly

investigated. There are other mysteries about 1026 and its owners and

residents. As I recall, Bertha Cheek was sister of Earline Roberts, and

was connected to Jack Ruby, Harry Olson and others. Small world.

Jack

Bless you, Jack.

Ashton

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

Is this a trick question?

Not at all.

On a serious note I think this question is designed to generate a discussion as to who done it.

• "His winnowing fork is in his hand. He will clean up his threshing floor and gather his grain into the barn, but he will burn the chaff with his inextinguishable fire."
  —Matthew 3:12
  

We may never get the killers but we must still seek justice.

Yes, we must.

Ashton

Fabian Escalante definitely has an agenda. He seems very keen to link Orlando Bosch and Luis Posada to the assassination. There are obvious political reasons for this and is probably an attempt to hurt the Bush family. However, that in itself does not make him wrong.

I agree with you, and I genuinely am not trying to work against you in my attempts to nail down specifics, and genuinely do appreciate the incredible amount of work you obviously invest in tracking down information.

On the other hand, it's been my experience that when doors start to open a crack leading to CIA sub-basements where the bodies really are buried, they have a ready arsenal of rhetorical and disinformational stun grenades to launch, and almost overnight can generate more red herrings per cubic researcher than could be counted in three human lifetimes.

Timelining is one relatively quick and sure proof against a majority of falsehoods. It isn't some personal hobby horse. It's an important tool that works every bit as much in your interests as in mine.

Ashton

If the CIA was involved at all, in any way, in the Kennedy murder, it was not taking orders from, or acting in the exclusive interests of, or beholden to, or doing the bidding of, or reduced to a parity with, or in any way junior to:

• Texas oil men

• Texas politicians

• The Vice President of the United States

• Pro-Castro forces

• Anti-Castro forces

• Cubans

• Castro

• The Mafia, or any part thereof

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

Oh hell yes and twernt no "rouge" elements.

Twas CIA all the way.

Ashton

Ashton, you are free to put what I sent you on the Plumlee white phone thread. Sorry it was not complete nor grammar checked. Don't mean to wax personal, but my dog is mortally ill and this is putting me nearly beyond my ability to do anything - least think clearly on these matters now, important as they are.

Peter, thanks for taking the time to post this in spite of what you're dealing with there, and for having now posted your answers in the Would Tosh Plumlee please pick up the white courtesy phone thread. I've been trying to get around to getting them formatted on your behalf and posted there, but I think it's altogether better that they came directly from you anyway.

As Ashton indicated. I have exact information on much of this, but on the other side of the planet. I had a little 'incident' back in the homeland and had to leave. I was working on just this very stuff when the phone threats and more began and much in my life fell apart. Perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not. Just prior to this Plumlee had gotten a phone call from a friend that Ted Shackley wanted to talk to him about the research 'you and Lemkin' are doing.

I'd like to touch on a few items of interest:

Jim Marrs and I were with Plumlee to the 'Country Club' area safehouse. I don't have the address on this side of the planet. Jim does for sure. ...Jim is hard to contact and very busy..but I suggest someone in contact with him ask for the address.

Is there anyone who can get in touch with Jim Marrs by any means and get the actual address of this safe house into the record? Please?

Plumlee indicated that the other 'Alpha-66' safe house was where everyone says it was.

Well, there's a jaw-dropper. Who is "everyone," and where does "everyone" say it was? I've yet to find a specific location for it, and until both of these safe houses are plotted precisely on a map of Oak Hill, along with locations and paths of infamous incidents in and around Oak Hill, it seems to me to be playing Monopoly on half a board. (Missing "GO!")

Plumlee claims to have been there a few times and interacted with those inside both there and around the town. I do NOT recall him saying he ever met Oswald there.

Here is the relevant quote from Plumlee. Parse, slice-and-dice it any way you like. It looks to me like that's exactly what he said (emphasis added):

• When I later learned that Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him on a number of previous occasions which were connected with intelligence training matters, first at Illusionary Warfare Training in Nagshead, North Carolina, then in Honolulu at a radar installation and at Oahu's Wheeler Air Force Base, then in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination.
  —Tosh Plumlee forum post 1 October 2006
  

I'm getting not infrequent updates from someone who's timelining this particular set of data, and I've just gotten a raw dump of some additional data on this from the Plumlee 1992 interview. It's very confused and needs to be pulled apart, but for the moment I'm just going to dump it in here and do the pulling later, or maybe somebody else can help clarify it, but it goes to your statements about other safe houses in the Oak Cliff area, including the zoo reference that Smitty just mentioned in the post above:

• TOSH PLUMLEE: Yes, in '62 when I came back into Dallas area, that, through the Dallas Cubans over on, not Harlendale Street, but there was a "safe" house here in Dallas, Oak Cliff, two of'em. There was a small two bedroom frame type house that was located in Oak Cliff not far from the zoo where the old inner urban track used to go through, I mean there's a highline down through there now, at that place and then I think it was Zang's Blvd. there used to be "safe" house there that was run by Hernandez out of Miami that had connections with Alpha 66 at one point that se up a "safe" house for Dallas Cubans that were filtrating out of the Miami area. Oswald, from those two "safe" houses, I went to another "safe" house and that "safe" house was directly behind where Oswald had rented a room, in the alley, and I carved my initials on the draining board up there at that time and that was a gun running operation and Oswald was renting the front house. I saw him there briefly but did not talk to him.
  Q: Is that the house he lived in when the assassination occurred?
  TOSH PLUMLEE: I'm not sure of the dates. Researchers would have to get the dates but this was just prior.. I had just came in from flying Roselli and John Martino from Houston to Galvezton and my next trip was from Houston back to Dallas so that would have been around June of '63, or no...before June...it would have been around April or May of '63.
  

Several interesting points are emerging in the timelining of this, but for this thread, of particualr interest is the fact that Oswald left Dallas on 24 April 1963 for New Orleans—according to the record. I won't woffle here on what that does in the timelining of what Plumlee says in the above passage, but will post the results when I get them sent to me. However, it does go directly to your next interesting point:

He does claim to have met Oswald in Dallas a few times and one time he remembers clearly was he and Lee setting off fireworks on the Fourth of July. I asked Marina, but she delined to identify Plumlee's picture, or such an incident....I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

I prefer to present organized data and leave conclusions until the last act. And the data I have either argues hard against this purported 4th of July incident, or opens up a previously hidden corridor. There are only two possible years: 1962 and 1963. In early July 1962, the Oswalds ostensibly were in Fort Worth, Texas, living with Robert. In July 1963, the Oswalds purportedly were in New Orleans, Lee Harvey Oswald working at the Reily Coffee Company. We have a problem.

I'll leave this here for the moment. Thank you very much for your help.

Ashton

Ashton,

Just saw your PM. If you want to get me quicker, just email me at info@jfkmurdersolved.com

I have been busy with some other research, plus other matters over the last few weeks, so I haven't dropped in for quite a while.

Also now, I came here to pick up a photo. Email me with specific questions you may have.

Wim

POSTED AND MAILED

Hi Wim,

Thanks. I am e-mailing this to you, with the same clear understanding that I gave to Peter Lemkin surrounding these matters: I have a firm and inviolable policy that anything sent to me on private lines that's in the public interest will be made public—in very short order. I am not, and will not become, a repository for relevant information that has strings attached dictating or restricting my use of the information, or that anyone wants me to keep "secret." Of course I respect and honor individual personal privacy, but that does not extend to important relevant information on public issues. This division seems easy for most to understand.

I prefer just to keep it in the forum. That saves me from having to reprocess information from someone else, which doubles the work.

As for "specific questions," the ones I have for the moment are the ones I've put in this thread, most of which still haven't been actually answered. I'm very appreciative to see Peter has taken the time, despite pressing situations, to post in this thread what he recently sent me in e-mail, but as you can see from his replies he doesn't have access currently to data he needs to specifically answer the questions, so has tried to help fill in some gaps where he could and narrow things down a bit.

If it will help at all, I will condense several of the questions into this one for you, which is the one I consider a high priority at the moment:

What specific information do you have on any "safe houses" in or near the Oak Cliff area of Dallas?

By "specific information," I'm hoping to get into the public record actual addresses for any or all such safe houses, the names of any persons known to have been using or associated with any of them at any time, and any dates that can be associated with them in any way (as specifically as possible).

Thanks for any help you can be on this. I'll say again that I would prefer to see you just post any such information you have (or leads to such information) directly in the forum. If it's sent to me privately, I will just post it in the forum, and I really don't need the additional traffic.

Ashton

If the CIA was involved at all, in any way, in the Kennedy murder, it was not taking orders from, or acting in the exclusive interests of, or beholden to, or doing the bidding of, or reduced to a parity with, or in any way junior to:

• Texas oil men

• Texas politicians

• The Vice President of the United States

• Pro-Castro forces

• Anti-Castro forces

• Cubans

• Castro

• The Mafia, or any part thereof

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

I still find it intriguing that at least one of the cars bearing out-of-state plates [as seen by Bowers] was most likely registered to an individual that resided in Oak Cliff.

Regarding Oak Cliff generally and the relevant incidents therein: has anyone bothered to factor in two intel cult "safe houses" of record in Oak Cliff, or to account for their locations?

Ashton

Ashton, would one of those be the Abundant Life Temple?

Greg, I honestly don't know. Somehow, I don't think so—but it's possible. I simply cannot get answers to the specific questions I have asked about them in the thread Would Tosh Plumlee please pick up the white courtesy phone?

The information I have on them so far is pretty much embodied in the questions in that thread, but here it is again, with some augmentation I received recently:

• OAK CLIFF SAFE HOUSE #1 There purportedly was an Oak Cliff safe house "in Dallas...on North Beckley Street" in which Tosh Plumlee had spent some amount of time in the company of Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in some kind of "intelligence training matters." According to the record, this safe house was "run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination." That's the complete record so far that I know of. I have one other somewhat vague bit of information about it that I have been sent in e-mail by Peter Lemkin (with the clear prior understanding that I do not ever receive any information on a private line that I cannot publish) but just haven't had an opportunity to post, which is that it was "in a lower class area," for whatever that's worth. Peter also said of this safe house: "Jim Marrs might also have these details. I believe Plumlee was there several times over a few months…generally around the July [sic] of 1963. I also believe there were some others [sic—safe houses?], but that one was the main one." Maybe Peter will post more on this when he has time and if he has any more specific information. Maybe Jim Marrs will join the discussion.
  OAK CLIFF SAFE HOUSE #2 There was a separate, different safe house "over by Oak Cliff Country Club on Bar Harbor Drive." Of course this is couched in intel-speak, where it is impossible from the syntax to determine whether the reference to Bar Harbor Drive is naming the street that the Oak Cliff Country Club is on, or that the safe house is on, or both. This is the safe house that Plumlee and company purportedly went through en route from and to Redbird Airport on 22 November 1963. Of that one, Peter Lemkin said: "The one near the country club was in a nicer upper-middle class area. I don’t have the address of the second with me."
  

Apparently Peter doesn't have certain records with him where he is. He didn't provide an address for the first safe house, either.

That is the totality of any reasonably useful information I have on the two Oak Cliff safe houses at issue. I've posted here what seems to augment the existing record. The one other thing Peter said that I found of interest, in response to my question to Tosh Plumlee inquiring whether there was only one Oak Cliff safe house being described or two separate Oak Cliff safe houses (it was difficult to tell initially), Peter answered in pertinent part: "Two separate [of which there were a few other] safe houses."

This indicates his knowledge of more than just the two described above. I have no information on when, where, or how he came by such knowledge on any of the safe houses. I was given no other specific information at all, even whether these "few other" safe houses were also in Oak Cliff or not. Any further information on that count will have to come from Peter Lemkin.

The original references to each of the two Oak Cliff safe houses at issue came from one source: Tosh Plumlee.

Given that the two Oak Cliff safe houses described above are in the record, and given that Peter Lemkin seems to corroborate their existence, and given that he suggests that Jim Marrs also can corroborate it, it astounds me beyond expression that any discussion of events in and immediately around Oak Cliff can take place at all without the absolute first priority being to track down every last shred of information that can be gathered from any source on these safe houses, their exact location, their owners, their uses, and personnel who inhabited or passed through them at any relevant time.

To do otherwise is to chase butterflies barefoot through a field writhing with black mambas.

Ashton

OK, now I'm confused. Does he say that someone was CURRENTLY spying on the FDC in April 1963?

The Friends of Democratic Cuba existed only from January 6, 1961 to the third week of March, 1961. All of the people involved with it agreed that it only lasted a few months in 1961, and contemporaneous documents (1961) support this.

He definitely gives the date April 1963. He said these meetings took place in the offices of the CRC and the headquarters of the Friends of Democratic Cuba. He adds that they were both located in the same building as Banister's detective agency. (page 103)

Something is definitely wrong here.

The FDC existed at 402 St. Charles Street (the Balter Building) from January 6, 1961 to the third week in March, 1961. This was the same building that the Frente Revolucionario Democratico was located in.

Guy Banister had had an office in that building from July 1958 to January 1960, when he moved to the Newman Building at 531 Lafayette Street. Banister was never in the same building, at the same time, as the FRD or the FDC. (But from October 1961 to February 1962, Banister and the FRD's successor, the Cuban Revolutionary Council, were in the same building, the Newman Building.)

With all due respect, Fabian Escalante's information is wrong. I have opined here before, based on Escalante's previous book (and the Furiati book) that Escalante combines what he gets from his flies/interviews with information in US assassination books. The problem is, some of the latter is wrong. One has to read his stuff with a fine filter, and use supporting sources wherever possible.

I'm glad you brought this up. I have been chasing this story across three threads trying to nail down some of the mercurial "facts," including the date in April 1963 of the purported report. I'd also like to know its actual content. As you correctly have pointed out, if the April 1963 report describes "spying on the Friends of Democratic Cuba," then the report has to be describing events taking place over two years earlier, in the first few months of 1961.

As you also correctly point out, the HSCA documented that Bannister and the Cuban Revolutionary Council (CRC) were in the Newman building, which has the dual address of 544 Camp Street and 531 Lafayette Street in New Orleans, the Secret Service reporting to HSCA that CRC had vacated the premises, as you say, in February 1962.

This, however, brings up an oddity: The HSCA report goes on to say that unnamed CRC leaders were questioned about any association with or knowledge of Oswald or the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Here is the odd quote: "The Cubans said they had none because they had vacated the building 15 months prior to Oswald's appearance in new Orleans."

Ignoring, for the sake of sanity, that the HSCA accepted "the building" as the only possible means of association or knowledge, when did Oswald "appear in New Orleans"? 24 April 1963. (Bringing us exactly back to the April 1963 date of this purported report.)

There were kids in school that used to push a whirligig around as fast as they could until they made somebody cry or puke.

Ashton

I still find it intriguing that at least one of the cars bearing out-of-state plates [as seen by Bowers] was most likely registered to an individual that resided in Oak Cliff.

Regarding Oak Cliff generally and the relevant incidents therein: has anyone bothered to factor in two intel cult "safe houses" of record in Oak Cliff, or to account for their locations?

Ashton

In 1961, Oswald wrote a letter home from the Soviet Union in which he wrote "concerding," and there was a prior [to the "Hunt" letter] instance of his middle name, in signature, being truncated as "Harvy." As time allows, I'll rifle through old boxes to see if I can locate a copy of each.

In the meantime, however, I think the precedents for both pecularities contained in the "Hunt" letter militate strongly that it was written by the same man who had previously made both identical errors. Failing that, it would mean that whomever we think responsible for the "Hunt" letter was intimately acquainted with LHO's penmanship to the point that they knew of such prior errors, and unnecessarily risked having the "Hunt" letter's provenance being called into question by the insertion of such odd characteristics. [This could include either the US or USSR intel agencies, since they both monitored correspondence between the two countries, but wouldn't either of them wish the "Hunt" letter to be flawless, if it had been forged?]

Purely as Devil's Advocate: not necessarily. The fact of both precedented deviations appearing in one disputed document for which no original is available could be seen to militate strongly for it being the work of an advanced forger insinuating just such touches of "authenticity" into the work in anticipation of just such investigative acumen as you've exhibited.

If it were anyone but CIA (or its twin) standing in the dock, I almost would find your argument dispositive. But I would not be quick to sell them short on just such gamesmanship and on playing several moves ahead.

Altogether, the document is a perfect "maybe."

Ashton