Ashton Gray

POSTED WITH PRIVATE FORUM MESSAGE OF NOTIFICATION TO WIM DANKBAAR AND TOSH PLUMLEE

(EDIT: Mr. Plumlee apparently has the PM function turned off for his account, so I only was able to PM Mr. Dankbaar.)

Mr. Dankbaar:

Greetings. I hate to trouble you, but I seem to be having the damnedest time trying to get some simple answers to a few questions that, while simple enough, are rather worrisome to me.

The reason I'm writing to you here in the Education Forum is that the questions I'm referring to arise from materials prominently featured on the web site you have with the ambitious all-caps title of "JFK MURDER SOLVED."

Now, I can't necessarily expect you to have ready answers to all of the questions at issue. On the other hand, it does seem to me that in your due diligence in presenting your case, these same questions would have occurred to you, and would have been pursued by you.

If for any reason that's not the case, it further seems to me that after having them brought to your attention, you might like to join with me in the effort to get timely answers to these questions—some of them fairly entangled with your own proffered "solution" to the JFK murder.

My understanding—and please correct me if I'm wrong on any part of this—is that you have proclaimed James Files as having delivered the fatal head shot from the north grassy knoll, and that at all relevant times Files purportedly was in the employ or doing the bidding of Mafia figures and kingpins, including John Roselli.

In support of this position, you have materials on your web site from Robert William "Tosh" Plumlee asserting that he had flown John Roselli into Dallas that fateful day.

Ignoring for the moment that the links on your site to "documentation" about Plumlee are dead, and ignoring for the moment data I have posted in the forum thread called Who Were the Shooters; Where Were They Located demonstrating grave problems for the north grassy knoll as a shooting location, I yet am left with disturbing questions about the Tosh Plumlee interview and Declaration on your site. That's why I seek your assistance in attempting to get these cleared up.

I've put the questions in a thread for Mr. Plumlee called Would Tosh Plumlee please pick up the white courtesy phone? but am reproducing them here for your convenience. Here are the questions arising from materials you have on your site that I'm trying to get answered (with the understanding that they were written as directed to Mr. Plumlee):

• 1) As specifically as you can recall, when exactly were you at the Illusionary Warfare Training in Nagshead, North Carolina with Lee Harvey Oswald and for how long?
  2) What "intelligence training matters" were you and Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in there?
  3) Why was Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in "intelligence training matters"?
  4) As specifically as you can recall, when exactly were you at the Honolulu radar installation with Lee Harvey Oswald and for how long?
  5) What "intelligence training matters" were you and Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in there, and why was Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in "intelligence training matters"?
  6) As specifically as you can recall, when exactly were you at Oahu's Wheeler Air Force Base with Lee Harvey Oswald and for how long?
  7) What "intelligence training matters" were you and Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in there, and why was Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in "intelligence training matters"?
  8) As specifically as you can recall, when exactly were you "in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination" with Lee Harvey Oswald and for how long?
  9) What "intelligence training matters" were you and Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in there, and why was Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in "intelligence training matters"?
  10) You have emphasized that "we were military intelligence" going in and out of Dallas, and that the CIA were only your "support people." You later say: "As we say in CIA... ." Were you military intelligence on 21-22 November 1963, or CIA?
  11) If you answered "military intelligence," what branch of military intelligence were you in, what was your rank and station, and who was your superior officer?
  12) You say you departed from Miami and traveled to Dallas via New Orleans and Houston, and that the flight plan for 6393 Echo out of Salt Lake City, Utah around the same time to Dallas, with Roselli's name on it, was not a flight plan for your flight. You also say that CIA's Robert "Bob" Bennett briefed you on your mission. Do you have any explanation for why the other flight would have departed from Bob Bennett's home town?
  13) Would you please supply the names of Secret Service agents and officials who were apprised by CIA and by your "military intelligence" branch of the threat against the President, and of your "abort team" being in the area.
  

Plus there are several additional questions that I posted just yesterday:

• A. In your 1992 interview, you said in pertinent part: "There was 3 people got off in Garland and they were picked up about 30 minutes after we arrived there, by car. Then we took the aircraft and jumped over to Redbird Airport after the weather had cleared... . ...Everybody else got off at Redbird. John Roselli got off at Redbird and everybody went their own way." Twelve years later, in a sworn Declaration, you said in pertinent part: "While waiting out the bad weather in Garland, and about 30 minutes after landing, 3 of the passengers were picked up by car, including Roselli." Which of these conflicting stories you told about Roselli, if either, do you now say is true?
  B. When CIA's Robert "Bob" Bennett briefed you, what identifying information were you given for the alleged "minimum of 19 or 20 people" your "abort team" was supposed to be looking for?
  C. You say that on 22 November 1963 you went from Redbird airport by car "to the safe house over by Oak Cliff Country Club on Bar Harbor Drive" before going on to Dealey Plaza. Elsewhere, you claim to have spent some earlier period of time with Lee Harvey Oswald "in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street." So in these two entirely separate references to Oak Cliff safe houses in Dallas, are they references to the same Oak Cliff safe house, or to two discrete, different Oak Cliff safe houses?
  D. How did you know to go to Dealey Plaza, of all the possible places for an assassination along the motorcade route?
  

Now, I'm hoping you can see inherent in these questions some of the knots I'm trying to untangle. It seems to me that they would be of the greatest possible interest to you, because despite the reassuring title of your web site, "JFK MURDER SOLVED," as long as these questions remain unanswered I'm not quite as sanguine about that conclusion as you seem to be.

Therefore I feel confident that we will share a thirst for the truth and reasonable disclosure on these matters, and I look forward to your response. Thank you for your time and kind attention.

Ashton Gray

The new British film “638 Ways to Kill Castro” contains a clip with new information about Oswald. To view the clip, click on the link below:

http://www.638waystokillcastro.com/video.asp

Oh, I wouldn't miss it for the world after this endorsement.

Ashton Gray

Two ringy-dingies.

While I've been sitting here buffing my nails and waiting, Tosh, a few more questions kind of crept up on me. I'll do these with letters instead of numbers:

A. In your 1992 interview, you said in pertinent part: "There was 3 people got off in Garland and they were picked up about 30 minutes after we arrived there, by car. Then we took the aircraft and jumped over to Redbird Airport after the weather had cleared... . ...Everybody else got off at Redbird. John Roselli got off at Redbird and everybody went their own way." Twelve years later, in a sworn Declaration, you said in pertinent part: "While waiting out the bad weather in Garland, and about 30 minutes after landing, 3 of the passengers were picked up by car, including Roselli." Which of these conflicting stories you told about Roselli, if either, do you now say is true?

B. When CIA's Robert "Bob" Bennett briefed you, what identifying information were you given for the alleged "minimum of 19 or 20 people" your "abort team" was supposed to be looking for?

C. You say that on 22 November 1963 you went from Redbird airport by car "to the safe house over by Oak Cliff Country Club on Bar Harbor Drive" before going on to Dealey Plaza. Elsewhere, you claim to have spent some earlier period of time with Lee Harvey Oswald "in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street." So in these two entirely separate references to Oak Cliff safe houses in Dallas, are they references to the same Oak Cliff safe house, or to two discrete, different Oak Cliff safe houses?

D. How did you know to go to Dealey Plaza, of all the possible places for an assassination along the motorcade route?

Three ringy-dingies...

Ashton Gray

In the photos below, Plumlee was standing in the Cancellare in the shadows just above the big tail fin on the car at left and in the lower photo where the blue line meets the shade of the trees on the S. Knoll area. The wiggly blue line is the path he drew of where he walked following the shots.

Thanks, Peter. I've also recently found some other reference on this and I will set it up.

The other line ignore for now.

Sure. No problem. And you try not to think of an elephant.

Ashton

Does the name "Einspruch" ring a bell? (Ashton Gray)

Ashton,

Would that be Dr. Burton Einspruch?

James

The very same.

Ashton

As to your post Ashton, all I can say is tell us more.

I can say no more.

Okay, seriously: I don't know anything more about that document than what I posted. I hadn't seen it probably in years, but the name of Overholser had stuck with me for some reason (partially due to the spelling thing), and the document was in the timeline database, so searching on the name Overholser when I saw your post brought it up immediately. I do think it's a string worth tugging on a little harder at some point, but for now I just felt I ought to post it here, hoping it wouldn't disrupt the flow of what you were doing.

So I wait with bated breath for the Sylvia Odio information. Does the name "Einspruch" ring a bell? (Apologies to Pavlov and all his minions.)

Ashton

I just came back from a short trip to the FWIW Department, where I found a listing for an airport southeast of Dallas called "C David Campbell Field-Corsicana Muni Airport."

A Google map of Corsicana, Texas will show its distance from Dallas.

¿¿¿ ???

Ashton

I think it is possible to circumvent source problems by establishing a benchmark and by creating a slowly growing 'pattern analysis' from the statistical approach and syncs which may provide a template of sorts that films can be checked against and inconsistencies revealed and foused on. It's slow and painstaking initially but worthwhile in the long run.(IMO)

And you and Frank Agbat are doing a fine, exceptional, and fully informative job that no one has assayed even to attempt before. Relevant and informed critiques of and contributions to such an extraordinary effort of individual initiative are rarer than snake feathers, so please carry on. "With great vigah."

Ashton

Nice work, Robert.

Overholser seemed to almost specialise in getting fascists off the the hook.

I seemed to sense a deep and resonant creaking in all the joints of the universe when I read this. It arrived as such an inconceivable and unexpected connection to a random piece of esoterica (in a rather giant collection of esoterica), that I immediately had to go and search for where I had seen that name before, because I knew the name had to be the same. And I found the document. And it is the same name. (Although that's another level of weirdness, because in the originally circulated document, the name had been misspelled [intentionally?] as "Oberholser.")

I won't go into the long-winded explanation provided by the researcher who sent me this document several years ago concerning how it was determined that "Oberrholser" was, in fact, meant to be spelled "Overholser," but the internal mention of St. Elizabeth's in the document I'm posting below is one confirming clue, plus evidence that the document had been typed from dictation, where the misspelling likely was introduced.

The author of the document happens to be L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Dianetics and Scientology. The date of the document is 28 February 1972. I feel compelled to mention the date, because as I have recently chronicled by timeline in the Watergate forum, it appears that L. Ron Hubbard permanently disappeared exactly three months after the date of the dispatch I'm about to post, on or about 28 May 1972—which happens to be during Memorial Day weekend 1972, when E. Howard Hunt, G. Gordon Liddy, James McCord, and other CIA scum (but I repeat myself) claim they were busy trying to break into the DNC headquarters at the Watergate complex, when they patently were not.

And all of that occurred just months before the CIA entered into a top-secret contract on 1 October 1972 with two "former" intelligence personnel—Hal Puthoff and Ingo Swann—both of whom had entered Scientology and gone through the highest levels before being granted the secret contract by CIA, under Sidney Gottlieb, Richard Helms, Vernon Walters, and William Colby.

I'm not able to take all this any further at the moment. There just are too many vectors whizzing through all of this suddenly. So here is the document as it was sent to me some time ago, in what the researcher who sent it to me says is a carefully restored correction of spelling errors, along with annotations of acronyms and abbreviations in square brackets:

• L. Ron Hubbard
  28th February, 1972
  CS-G [Commodore's Staff-Guardian]<—
  GO WW [Guardian Office World Wide]<—
  D/G Int WW [Deputy Guardian World Wide]
  D/GO US [Deputy Guardian United States]
  D/D/G INT US [Deputy Deputy Guardian International, United States]
  Dear Brian,
  Thank you for the excellent package on Overholser (the late and very unlamented).
  The interest in this bad hat stems from the fact that he blew the whistle on Dianetics when St. Elizabeth psychiatrists were just beginning to use it and were for the first time getting results on patients at the National Asylum. He forbade them to use it but they disagreed heavily and privately used it for many years under cover. This broke up introducing Dianetics on regular channels - May 1950.
  Thereafter a violent and gory attack was mounted. It was begun by Overholser, went over to George Wash. U. Psychology Dept at once and there a student of the first Dianetics class (Dolly Jones) - also a psychology student - was hypnotized, beaten, told to go crazy, did go, and we had to hospitalize her. We handled it so fast and so well no "Dianetics drove her crazy" could be campaigned and wasn't. This was the first hard flat-out PR-Intelligence operation in Dianetics. Her state was not assisted by her husband, Col Jones of US Army Intelligence, also a member of the first Dianetics Class.
  From then on the NY Times Literary Section began an attack and a lot of violent track ran by which included DR. MEYER-ZELIG, a psychiatrist in San Francisco master-minding a kidnapping of me to fly me to St. Louis and be put away. His (Zelig's) plans miscarried, MILES HOLLISTER, formerly a psych student, got hold of SARA NORTHRUP (really Komknoidominoff, [or "ov"]) and handed her over to Zelig who put her in deep hypnosis, fixated her on the idea I was trying to kill her, and spun her in, which state she has remained in since. This caused the final destruction of the HDRF [Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation] as national press only played up her divorce.
  GENE BENTON, Sec'y of the Young Communist League and others, were part of this.
  So you see why I am interested in this bad hat Overholser. He struck the first blow.
  You do have evidence re Ezra Pound. It is on pg 29 of "Manufacture of Madness". Overholser's connection to WFMH [World Federation of Mental Health] has not been picked up in this review but exists I believe in the WFMH rosters.
  We get a very out-pointy package on Overholser. Majored in ECONOMICS. Six wks formal training as a head-boiler, membership crossed to Council of Foreign Relations. All the "best people" and the "right societies" but they are very anti-Man.
  Interest in Central-South America - that's a Rockefeller clue.
  George Washington U altered and misreports my status to reporters. Once said I never went there, now may have another tale.
  This ties back to Overholser by what you've dug up.
  He is involved in judicial degradations according to his works, fascinated with socking people in without trial. Siberia Bill [H.R. 6376, 1956] included.
  Now when we hit and wrecked his Siberia Bill, Overholser must have revived pressure. That funny dead man Brock Chrisholm (undoubtedly connected as same societies) is reported by NAMH [National Association for Mental Health] head SA [south Africa] to have said (1958?) "Scientology is dangerous" and the attack on us suddenly went all out mounting up to the FDA raid and finally all the "bans".
  Now WFMH is about to die; most of these old birds are carrion and we are making rapid headway once more.
  From all this sorting out of detail I hazard that we ran into and hit a massive plan to escalate the destruction of human liberty by psychiatry and didn't just dent it but are now approaching a total wreckage of their political-judicial domination of the world scene.
  While this is just hitting the high spots it gives us a need to
  (1) Continue to apply hard pressure and mop up.
  (2) Dead-agent [prove falseness of] the wild false statements of the 1950-1970 scene by pin-pointing the general villainy of the agencies concerned (AMA, FDA, NAMH, APA and George Wash. U where govt clerks go to get degrees to be FBI, Justice Attorneys, FDA execs and other dreck).
  (3) Be alert that we have not omitted another spearhead that was also involved.
  (4) Continue to look for NEW opposition and handle well.
  This search was a good one. He (Overholser) was a member of the club.
  Your work is appreciated.
  The above 1 to 4 general plan is called to the attention of the GO [Guardian Office].
  Love,
  [signature]
  Ron
  

As a coda: after Hubbard disappeared, the Scientology Guardian Office was destroyed and its senior officials sent to jail after raids in 1977 by the FBI.

Ashton

Her job was described as of vital importance in coordinating the dispatch of communications for officers in the field.

She received emergency calls and issued information directly to the dispatch officer in the downtown division headquarters, located about a mile from Dealey Plaza.

She was privy to all transmissions, and would have heard all communications regarding the murder of Officer Tippit.

Mark, any chance of getting a source for this job description?

Ashton

As I recall, there were two 911 phone calls made from the Tippit crime scene. One was made by one of the Davis girls, and one by a neighbor down the street whose name escapes me. As far as I know, the timing of these calls was never established, although it is likely that both calls preceded Bowley's radio transmission. The exact time of the Davis phone call, if known, would be extremely helpful in pinpointing the time of the Tippit murder, but as far as I know the person at DPD H.Q. who received the call was never identified, and the Warren Commission neglected to subpoena the phone records of the Davis household.

If the job description we have for Ms. Barnes is accurate, then perhaps she (and her log book, assuming she kept one) would have been an indispensable witness to the circumstances surrounding the Tippit murder. It was by ignoring the time of the Davis phone call that David Belin and his WC brethren were able to claim that the murder occurred much later than the time given by Helen Markham and TF Bowley.

This is outstanding. Thank you very much, Raymond.

TO MARK:

Thank you very much for the cite and article. What you put in bold is a fascinating detail.

This just gets curiouser and curiouser...

Ashton

Having come this far in this thread, and having made a good faith effort to present views in a 3D model from a variety of proposed shooter locations (which I will continue to do as I can), I have reached this point of reductio ad absurdum on this entire question. To my mind, there are two extraordinarily simple possibilities:

1) The government has been open, honest, forthcoming, friendly, brave, thrifty, clean, kind, trustworthy, courteous, reverent, and exhibited all the other Boy Scout virtues at all relevant times, meaning that John F. Kennedy was killed by a lone nut named Lee Harvey Oswald, shooting from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, or,

2) The assassination was planned long in advance and carried out by factions that had to include parties in the United States government, and the actual deed was done by a manageable number of shooters from very well hidden and protected locations that had viable escape routes and cover, including only the most minute possibility of ever being found out or exposed.

I am finding the outdoor locations uniformly burdened with extreme liabilities and extreme risk of detection and capture. I don't mean just inconveniences. I mean like a 75% or better likelihood of catastrophic results. I simply don't believe that the people who planned and carried out this murder were that stupid. Evil does not equate to stupid.

These are opinions, but I feel, at this point, that they are informed opinions based on direct observation in a model that, while imperfect, yet supplies sufficient approximations to make practical observation of potential exposure or disastrous (to the plan) happenstance far too likely to dismiss, even allowing generously for model inaccuracies.

And since I'm stating opinions here, I'm going to state further that I now believe:

• That the sixth floor TSBD location was selected for the patsy frame-up and purported single shooter "sniper's nest" specifically because it has some degree of parity or parallel or other similarity to the actual line or lines of fatal fire, making it a "sellable" scenario, and,

• That the actual shooter location or locations had some very high degree of seclusion, protection, and secured escape routes, and,

• That once such qualified locations are identified and narrowed down, there will be a trail from there leading back through protective coloration and connections that inevitably will open the door to new and profitable lines of inquiry into who the planners and perpetrators actually were—most, if not all, of whom probably are already are in the literature, but have escaped closer scrutiny primarily due to the false "leads" that have been sown all around Dealey Plaza like kudzu, and have grown proportionately to choke the life out of focused analysis.

And that's just how I see it.

Ashton Gray

Hi Bernice,

Thanks again for the very helpful photos.

As for the photo "from Tosh's area....one from his approximate view," the only one that seems to have any possibility of being that is the sepia one taken from behind the south pergola. I've posted several images from approximately that position. As with every angle I can find for any of the purported shots from anywhere along the south knoll area, every one of them has a backdrop of spectators lining Houston and Elm (which in many cases is only the least of the problems).

Not only that, any outdoor sniper location anywhere on the south knoll would have made Plumlee and whoever was with him at the very least a potential eyewithness, if not an eyewitness, and the shooter would have been trapped between Plumlee (assuming, arguendo, that Plumlee wasn't an accomplice) and the five people on the overpass, with no protected escape route—just wide open spaces all around.

Although I genuinely want to do what I can to accommodate requests for views from anywhere in this model, I don't want to keep repeating ones that I've already done, and frankly I'm beginning to find these south knoll and overpass-proximity locations a waste of time.

Also a view from the Records building roof..

That view is actually from the roof of the County Courts building, not the adjacent (and connected?) County Records building. I've done several views from the roof of the County Courts building, and that image you posted is over a ground position that puts it on the County Courts, not County Records building.

Also a map from where the possible shooters were.

Thanks very much. I've done images from at least close to several of those, but as soon as I know I have the vertical placement of the pergolas corrected, I'm going to do a new series from each of those.

I will do them methodically and as faithfully as possible, but I'm going to say right now that through the process of doing this to date I am becoming convinced, from my own observations with this model, that a majority of these tendered "shooter locations" fall into two possible categories:

1. The deductions of rank amateurs who cannot come anywhere close to thinking like cold-blooded trained assassins (to their credit), and thereby utterly ignore major drawbacks and liabilities and wild-cards inherent in certain locations, or,

2. Willful, vicious, malicious disinformation that has been flooded into the research community by those with vested interests in preventing the case from ever being solved.

Speaking of which...

....but they do not show a possible shot from the north end of the fence, that you could possibley draw in, if you or anyone is interested in doing so.......

I'm lost by that description, Bernice. I'm going to ask you, as I just did Peter, to please take one of the images and mark the location for me as specifically as possible, the way John Dolva did with his red dot. I genuinely am trying to help, but verbal descriptions leave far too much to guesswork that can lead to a lot of unnecessary double work.

also the possible shots from the West end of the TSBD...I do have some further info, but not yet..

As soon as I get the pergolas properly set into the ground I'll do those. That's going to take a little doing, so bear with me.

The Terminal Tower I see as being way too large, and not back far enough

Okay. I placed it and sized its footprint according to this image, which I think you uploaded for me some time ago:

Then I parallax-corrected photos of it and mapped them onto it, scaling them against the footprint to determine an approximate correct height. If you feel that image showing placement and footprint is wrong, do you have any other reference that might help correct it?

and the two men if they were responsible for a shot, would have been down right at the north end of the fence..

Hmmm. This goes back to your same "north end of the fence" reference above, but the "two men" that Bowers refers to were at the west end of the picket fence, near the overpass—right where the two cops are. And I've just posted four images from that location. Do you want more? What I mean is do you think the "two men" who were there very near the cops and the railroad workers on the overpass are responsible for a shot? If so, and you want to see something from some location other than what I've posted, could you just post an image with a specific location marked? That would clear up any possible confusion over this.

The one from the street sewer is seemingly the wrong angle somehow..

Well, I sure agree with you there.

Seriously, I don't know what to do or say: I put the camera on the "ground" as close as I could get to where the street-level sewer opening appears to be, pointed the virtual camera at the JFK model, and took a snapshot.

How any angle from there could be a viable location for a shot is beyond me, given that there are about 15 or more sets of eyes (including cops and SS agents) that almost couldn't miss a muzzle flash from there even if they were trying really, really hard, in which case any shooter there would be trapped like a rat in a— Well, in a sewer.

The photo I am posting of the Plaza shows those two indented ends on the bridge, as it appeared at that time, the blind spots from anyone who was standing on the bridge.

Okay. I'm not seeing much in the way of hidey-holes, but assuming they are there, then what? After the shot the assassin just doesn't move, and hopes no one comes and looks there? Any dash is across wide open spaces fully visible from the overpass—or into the waiting arms of Tosh Plumlee, right? Or am I missing some important piece of this puzzle?

Also one of the post office size in relation to the other buildings...

That's great. Thanks a lot. I'm going to try to pull a decent footprint from Google maps. Then if I can get a good front view, even from an angle, that has enough resolution, I think I can get the Post Office fairly well represented.

Thanks again for a your input, appreciated.

My pleasure. Thank you for all of yours, which is just invaluable. I've still got lots of work ahead of me putting in details from the many images you've uploaded in this thread and others, and I'm very, very grateful for having all this great reference material.

Ashton

Her job was described as of vital importance in coordinating the dispatch of communications for officers in the field.

She received emergency calls and issued information directly to the dispatch officer in the downtown division headquarters, located about a mile from Dealey Plaza.

She was privy to all transmissions, and would have heard all communications regarding the murder of Officer Tippit.

Mark, any chance of getting a source for this job description?

Ashton

I'd just remind people that Plumlee was standing just West of the line between the building and the limo and said he heard a shot over his head. FWIW

Peter, could you please take any of the overviews of Dealey that Bernice has posted and simply mark on it where Tosh Plumlee purportedly was standing, and post it? That would be a great help.

Ashton

Ashton, some time ago I cobbled together the top image here to see what it would look like from the top east window area of the Post Office.(red dot) It seems to me that the headshot is just as the limo enters the alley of which there are people on either side of but none in line. Only the lawn of the GK past Newman to hit with shrapnel or misses. Could you do one from there to see if I got this right and whether Kennedy's head is clear of Jackie, please?

Also here's a then and now composite looking at vegetation, and an elevation view.

Hi John. This looked like something interesting to pursue, but I'm sort of handcuffed because I don't have any plans with an accurate footprint of the Post Office, or any good images of the front of the building to scale against the footprint. So I've looked at the small images of the building you uploaded and just made a box that is a pure guess at size (but approximately correctly located, at least the face of the building and northeast corner), and put a "window" in it close to the location (I think) of your red dot.

Here is a smallish isometric view so you can see if you think the height is anywhere near correct, and the window placement about right:

And here is a distant perspective view as a sort of side-check:

Assuming that's within some workable estimation of location, here's the view I got from the window to the head shot:

And zooming in, I found:

I found it kind of odd that the angle from that corner of the Post Office would put the people to the left of the "lamp post girls" so in the line of fire, but I rechecked it several times and it kept coming out that way. <?>

As you can see, Jaquie also presents a pretty significant problem, if I have the body attitudes even close. Of course she was turned facing JFK, not looking at her feet, but her torso was leaning forward as far as I can tell, which would have put her head (though turned away) approximately where it is. In other words, I can't see it being a viable shot if her head is anywhere even close to where it is shown.

I moved the camera out of the Post Office building, around in an arc to find the first angle I could find where the sidewalk spectators seemed to be sufficiently out of the way, and found myself across Houston floating in the air at a location somewhere in the vicinity of the new courthouse building that was under construction in 1963 (which I don't have represented at all in the model). Here's the close-up from there:

But there's still the Jacquie problem. (Even without a pillbox hat.)

Wish I had better things to report. If you see any way I can improve on the Post Office, let me know and I'll try as soon as I can.

Ashton

Continuting from where I left off in the last post—the position at the end of the picket fence by the overpass—if I look left....

That's the "two men," and old Bowers in the tower. "Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right..." Bad day at the assassination office. Moving on...

I dollied across the old overpass to the other side to attempt to get a location that would seem to be about where I understand that Tosh Plumlee thought we ought to look. This is from behind the angled retaining wall on that side, fairly near the overpass, pointed first at the head shot location:

Then at the alleged "throat shot" location:

Then at the alleged "throat shot" location, zoomed:

Of course a shooter from this location would have the workmen on the overpass to contend with as well, and the two cops—whose exact positions on the overpass at any given time I don't know, but the overpass simply isn't a huge expanse.

So there you have it for whatever it's worth, and I know it's at least worth the price of admission.

I dunno, Bernice. This is an interesting exercise for me. I've encountered discussions of all these locations before, and they sound good in theory. But as I've started to add spectators and elements of the scene that day, and actually have had an impetus (as you and others have provided) to go and actually look, suddenly they don't look so good.

The model will continue being improved with greater detail—including a correctly-modeled limo this week, and hopefully some articulated "people" soon to put in the JFK and Jaquie seats—and I will continue trying to provide views that at least can help with visualizations of these things to better assess their practicality for likely inclusion in the planning by very smart and seasoned killers of a dangerous murder that clearly, to me, was planned far, far in advance, with attention to elimination of every possible variable and risk for the perpetrators.

So far, the popular literature locations all seem to have inherent in them extreme potential for catastrophic failure, wild variables, and high risk of being seen, photographed, and even caught.

And it's still my opinion that any actual location for a shooter would have had all of those things carefully assessed far in advanced, and reduced to the smallest possible chance. (I could put all this more bluntly, but I'm trying to be a kinder, gentler Ashton. Poppy would want it that way, and I hate to see him cry.)

I'll do more as soon as I am able.

Ashton

Hi Ashton:

Re words in one of your previous posts.....Hope your ready for more Codswallop, I do like that word. Goofy, Idiotic and therefore Comical and may even be Risible to the point of being Suicical...thoughts at this time.....

Hi Bernice. I promised eariler that I would respond "more appropriately" to your very informative and very long post when I had more time, and I'm afraid I can only deliver a tiny fraction of a more appropriate reply at the moment, because I'm still under intense deadline pressures. I've been chipping away here and there at attempting to put together a few things, though, and thought I'd better just post what I've got and get to the the rest when I can.

I've tried to set up "shots of shots" from several of the potential shooter locations you indicated as possibilities that have been put forward with testimony, theories, and photos.

Based partly on limited time, and partly on having to work around the limitations of an unfinished "work in progress" 3D model, all I've been able to do is approximate the described or indicated location with the virtual camera, point, and click. I'll include some of my thoughts after the images from each location, but they are after-the-fact-of-looking comments, all with the caveat and understanding that these images only can approximate some of the conditions that day, not re-create them.

In no particular order, here are some of the views.

First, here is what I saw when "looking" from the location of the sewer opening by the lamp post on Elm Street with the JFK figure situated as closely as I currently can approximate the position at the time of the headshot:

And so I zoomed at the JFK figure from there (of whom you barely can see the top of the head and the shoulder):

Although I have my own opinion about this as a potential location for a shooter, I think I will reserve it and let others draw their own conclusions about how much certain variables (e.g., Connoly's position) might or might not have affected a choice of this location for a planned assassination attempt.

Next here is a view from one of the areas shown in the photographs you posted, which I think is also a location Jack White had inquired about earlier in this thread (but I wasn't certain, and he never answered my questions to narrow it down). Anyway, this is from the end of the picket fence near the overpass at the time of the headshot:

Zooming in from that location gave me this:

No, I didn't put a kid there gratuitously. That's the kid in the Z-film, in the location indicated on one of the Dealey plans.

More troubling than that, though, is what I see if I swing the camera to the right from that location:

The three guys are standing in for the railroad workers on the overpass, and the cops are standing in for...well, for the cops.

And now this must be continued in the next post, because I have used up my images-per-post allotment...

Ashton

In Book Three of Sinister Forces, author Peter Levenda deals extensively with Scientology, Stanford Research Institute, remote viewing, and some of the persons involved.

I hope you'll accept this belated thanks for the pointer, Michael. It's good to see that some some small glimmers of the truth are beginning to mined from the cubic tons of disinformation that have been dumped all over the field.

From my research, I'm of the opinion that no one could overstate the lengths to which the CIA has gone, over a period of many decades, to keep these connections and origins hidden, and—where exposed at all—downplayed with unabashed thundering lies.

I still am in awe of anyone who can have even a nodding acquaintance with the so-called investigative congressional committees of the '70s that supposedly were cleaning house at CIA, yet blithely can ignore the cover-up by those same committees of the concommitant existence of this extensive and very black CIA/DIA program and its origins—or, even worse, their ignorance of it.

Anyone who does so and claims the name "historian" might be better served with "charlatan."

If the very nature, length, extent, and depth of the cover-up of these state secrets is any measure at all of their infamy, we yet are seeing only the claws of the beast uncovered. And given the parallel track of its development throughout the CIA's Pentagon Papers op and its deformed twin, Watergate, I belive that anyone continuing to assert or believe in some kind of disconnect between those and the conception, gestation, and birth of the CIA's bastard RV monstrosity merely is suffering through the heartbreaking stage of denial.

Ashton

Assassinations of progressives FAR, FAR outwieigh those of persons on the 'right'....strange isn't it....it makes one wonder who 'really' 'won' WW2. I was talking to someone from a former Communist East European country and they remarked how the War didn't end 'really' in their country until the fall of the Communism. I replied that I agreed, but sadly in my country the nighmare legacy of the War still has not 'ended'.

Peter:

Since about 1973 I have not "wonder(ed) about who really won WW 2". Fascism came to American in the name of National Security. (To paraphrase Garrison in his Playboy interview).

Dawn

And now a few important words from the titular founder of fascism:

• The concept of freedom is not absolute because nothing is ever absolute in life. Freedom is not a right, it is a duty. It is not a gift, it is a conquest; it is not equality, it is a privilege. The concept of freedom changes with the passing of time. There is a freedom in times of peace which is not the freedom of times of war. There is a freedom in times of prosperity which is not a freedom to be allowed in times of poverty.
  ...In our state the individual is not deprived of freedom. In fact, he has greater liberty than an isolated man, because the state protects him and he is part of the State. Isolated man is without defence.
  ...The Ministry of Corporations is an institution in virtue of which, in the centre and outside, integral corporation becomes an accomplished fact, where balance is achieved between interests and forces of the economic world. Such a glance is only possible within the sphere of the state, because the state alone transcends the contrasting interests of groups and individuals, in view of co-coordinating them to achieve higher aims. The achievement of these aims is speeded up by the fact that all economic organizations, acknowledged, safeguarded and supported by the Corporative State, exist within the orbit of Fascism...
  ...We have constituted a Corporative and Fascist state, the state of national society, a State which concentrates, controls, harmonizes and tempers the interests of all social classes, which are thereby protected in equal measure.
  —Benito Mussolini (in speeches and publications, 1924-1932)
  

Ashton Gray

Mark,

The "reply" page suddenly looks different - are we operating under a new software system? I can't find a way to post a photo. Thanks.

Try hitting your reload button.

When I first tried to post on a new topic, the option for uploading a photo wasn't there, but when I hit my reload button, it was.

Steve Thomas

On Mac OS X running Safari, the reload button alone doesn't do it, but I found that by clearing the history and emptying the cache, then restarting Safari, the new interface works as I believe is expected.

All the drop-down menus now are functional, and the Attachments area now appears below the text editing window.

There Andy: you are vindicated, and I'm braced for whatever number and size of brickbats you'd like to throw.

I'm still concerned about Jack's inability to get it to work in OS 9. If anyone can suggest a solution I'd sure appreciate it. I know that without any user-interface gadgets at all it's possible to do everything those do just by entering the codes manually in the text (which is what I do about 90% of the time anyway, except for colors because I'm too lazy to go look up the color codes). I also know, though, that many people seem to find that daunting if not downright impossible to grasp. But I sure don't want to see Jack leave this forum.

Ashton

Interesting approach, Frank. I wonder if the results can be used as a kind of reference to compare the other films. Would a similar pattern, say of the Z-film, mean a sync?

Whatever the result on Nix and possible application to the Zapruder film, I think the approach that you and Frank have taken is the most practical, rational, and disinterested analysis that I've seen to date, and I just wanted to voice my appreciation for what I think will stand as landmark work.

Ashton

I had nothing to do with creating the latest version of the software. It seems to me to be greatly inferior to the previous version.

If you don't keep your forum current with the latest software updates your forum become susceptible to hackers very quickly. I have found this out the hard way in the past.

I am sure even those with a natural conservative outlook will come to terms with the changes eventually

Andy, this is a serious question to you: do you have any interest at all in helping users be able to use the forum effectively, or are you primarily interested in opportunities for zippy one-liners?

Security updates don't require retooling the interface in ways that are non-standard and platform-exclusive. It's the cosmetics that have broken functionality, not security issues.

So my next serious question is are you going to do anything about it or not?

Ashton

John, what do you mean by "your computer"? I don't even know who you're replying to, but am going to guess that you're refering to people on Macs. If so, somewhere the entire philosophy behind the use of the internet apparently got sent to the dustbin in favor of some other "priority" that's been set for the forum that I can't even guess at.

The internet is supposed to use a universal and unifying language. If not, somebody ought to go tell the World Wide Web Consortium that they've wasted a whole lot of time for a lot of decades trying to set standards.

The only company in the world I know who constantly is trying to leap-frog every new universal standard and set up some new entirely proprietary and exclusionary "standard" is Microsoft.

I have no idea what you and or Andy are doing to create the user interface of this forum, but if you've managed to exclude people (and it seems you have now, in a significant way), it's pretty cut and dried: you've violated established workable web standards in favor of some bells and whistles you found somewhere

I know for a fact that the phpbb forum engine works cross-platform because I've set up several that work just fine.

People who create "skins" and customizations for it, though, that make calls to some new gee-whiz Microsoft Internet Exploder-only hook will uniformly end up with a non-standard interface that excludes some number of users. It boils down simply to whether your priority is a user-friendly standards-compliant service, or some proprietary exclusionary front-end.

I do not use a Mac (I am using a DELL PC). I always upload photos to the forum from my hard-drive. It is currently not allowing me to do that.

I had nothing to do with creating the latest version of the software. It seems to me to be greatly inferior to the previous version.

Oh.

Yep, well, if you're having problems with it, too, then I'd have to agree. This seems to invoke the old saw: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." And the AG Corallary: "If it is broke, only fix that part."

Ashton

I have been unable to find out how to upload a photo from your computer or how to change the colour of the text.

John, what do you mean by "your computer"? I don't even know who you're replying to, but am going to guess that you're refering to people on Macs. If so, somewhere the entire philosophy behind the use of the internet apparently got sent to the dustbin in favor of some other "priority" that's been set for the forum that I can't even guess at.

The internet is supposed to use a universal and unifying language. If not, somebody ought to go tell the World Wide Web Consortium that they've wasted a whole lot of time for a lot of decades trying to set standards.

The only company in the world I know who constantly is trying to leap-frog every new universal standard and set up some new entirely proprietary and exclusionary "standard" is Microsoft.

I have no idea what you and or Andy are doing to create the user interface of this forum, but if you've managed to exclude people (and it seems you have now, in a significant way), it's pretty cut and dried: you've violated established workable web standards in favor of some bells and whistles you found somewhere

I know for a fact that the phpbb forum engine works cross-platform because I've set up several that work just fine.

People who create "skins" and customizations for it, though, that make calls to some new gee-whiz Microsoft Internet Exploder-only hook will uniformly end up with a non-standard interface that excludes some number of users. It boils down simply to whether your priority is a user-friendly standards-compliant service, or some proprietary exclusionary front-end.

Ashton

Editing a posted message no longer works on a Mac, either.

The "Complete Edit" button doesn't.

Ashton