Cliff Varnell

I find Pat's work on the medical evidence disposable. Like other "high back wound" pet theorists Speer must conduct jihad against the witnesses. Everyone who saw the low back wound got it wrong. Pat's claims are based on the notion that improperly prepared medical evidence trumps properly prepared medical evidence. As I say, readily disposable.

So what? By what form of logic do you equate what you scrap off the bottom of the barrel with the hard evidence of 2+ shooters in the JFK assassination? http://occamsrazorjfk.net/ You're guilty of academic malpractice here, Prof. Tribe. Sadly for you and your silly website, it is unimpeachable that there was a fold of fabric large enough to obsure JFKJ's jacket collar in Betzner. You fail at intellectual honesty... Craig Lamson back on the attack! Are you referring to the fold that you didn't notice until after two years of intense analysis? The fold where both the sunny side and the shadow side are in shadow? Funny how such obvious artifacts escaped the keen eye of Craig Lamson for two years. Of course, what are we to expect from one who can't discern the difference between horizontal and vertical, indentations and bulges, or stretching fabric and bunching fabric. It's all the same to Craig Lamson. Intellectual malpractice.

Cross-posted: Hurricane Katrina was an epochal natural disaster; to ascribe this to a US government conspiracy is utterly fanciful and not widely held. The Apollo moon landings were an epochal achievement in human history that has attracted a small cohort of naysayers who can produce no prima facie evidence of criminal conspiracy. Three buildings at the WTC collapsed in free-fall speed in the direction of greatest resistance. This strikes many people as prima facie evidence of controlled demolition. The murder of Benazir Bhutto was a criminal conspiracy according to the official version blaming Mehsud. Prof. Tribe, your etc., etc, etc. certainly includes the JFK assassination with its abundant and redundant evidence of criminal conspiracy, of which this is a handy sample: http://occamsrazorjfk.net/ How on earth do you conflate fanciful speculation for which there is no prima facie evidence of criminal conspiracy with hard, cold crime scene facts?

So what? By what form of logic do you equate what you scrap off the bottom of the barrel with the hard evidence of 2+ shooters in the JFK assassination? http://occamsrazorjfk.net/ You're guilty of academic malpractice here, Prof. Tribe.

Sorry to hijack the thread again, Andy! Tough to keep up around here, but that's why I love the joint, warts and all. Mike Tribe added a couple of interesting "conspiracy" theories to the pile which you, Mike and David Aaronovitch equate with 9/11 and the JFK assassination. One is on the frivolous list -- that the US government conspired to create Hurrican Katrina. I've never heard that one before. Did Mike Tribe encounter a drunk under a full moon and transcribe this scenario as it was spoken of between swigs? The other Tribe cite is the assassination of Benizar Bhutto. Well, the guy the Pakistani gov't fingered for the deed (Mehsud) denied it. Don't terrorists commit terror in order to brag about it? Isn't there a legitimate question as to the parties responsible? At any rate, the assassination of Bhutto was certainly a criminal conspiracy left un-examined. Seems we have a case of false equivalency, Andy.

Ah, the dry Aussie wit! Pardon granted...

Which long word was unsettling to you -- "nonsensically" or "frivolous"? Given the tenor of your post it had to be one or the other.

When I hire an editor I'll keep you in mind. Thanks.

Andy Walker et al are guilty of a mechanical, motivated reasoning which nonsensically conflates frivolous speculation with physical evidence from actual crime scenes.

Sorry to hijack yer thread, Andy! Back on topic! According to my understanding Princess Diana died in a high speed car chase. There are allegations of a criminal conspiracy, but no prima facie evidence of such. Jesus' "bloodline" is historical speculation which doesn't appear to have held up well. By what form of tortured logic does this compare with actual crimes scenes such as Dealey Plaza and Ground Zero et al? 9/11 was obviously a criminal conspiracy -- unless you think Osama bin Laden himself hijacked four planes? There are obviously open questions about the ultimate blame for this conspiracy when you consider the fact that the US Justice Department has never indicted Osama bin Laden for the crime. As far as Pakistan goes, it is a matter of some record (Times of India, Agence France) that the then head of Pakistani ISI Mahmoud Ahmed wired Mohamad Atta $100,000 the summer of 2001. How does citing these facts constitute "Voodoo History"? The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a literary account widely regarded as a hoax. How is this placed under the same color as hard facts in historic crime? Apollo was a watershed event in human history that 10% of folks don't buy. There is certainly no prima facie evidence of criminal conspiracy involved in the moon landings. JFK assassination features an adundance of prima facie evidence of criminal conspiracy. http://occamsrazorjfk.net/ I dismiss the Aaronovitch premise as wholly mechanical and illogical, painting legitimate obvious views with issues raised only for their frivolity.

It didn't seem to bother the moderators when Craig Lamson suggested I was a corrupt poker dealer because I disagreed with him. Hey Evan -- want me to drag up some old Craig invective you allowed for years?

I agree with those who found Peter an inappropriate moderator. But he's banished? Bollocks! Whatever offense he may have committed pales in comparison to the xxxx I've taken around this joint for years without complaint (hi Craig) -- until now.

Cliff not sure from my memory, but I think it was between 1 and 2pm. We waited for awhile for others but soon left after that. I can't remember for sure, however I think its on the record somewhere and has been posted on this forum a few years back... Perhaps Peter Lemkin might recall what I told him and Jim back in 1990. Tosh, do you recall how soon you were aware of the Abort Team's attitude of disappointment? Did you read their disappointment immediately, or did you gather than impression more slowly during the flight back?

Tosh, Do you recall what time it was when the Abort Team reassembled back at the plane?

Tom, I find the Charles & DeMoh Show fascinating. Every time I see a new post or article on the subject I'm always on alert for possible heroin connections, as that is what I suspect the Russian and the Haitian were up to. Interesting that Czajkowski was a historian for Air America and his primary Asian outpost was Laos.

Fragmented on what? The trachea? Did the tip of the lung cause the bullet to fragment? The neck x-ray shows a clear front to back path with minor damage: bruised lung tip, hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process, and an airpocket. No bullet exit. No round recovered. Dr. Livinston is entitled to his opinions, he is not entitled to his own facts. There was a triangulation of fire for the head shots and no one missed. Nothing in Livingston's analysis precludes three head shots. Because there was surgery to the head pre-autopsy none of the head wound evidence is valid. The amount of evidence he had to ignore in order to reach his throat wound conclusion is impressive.

The critics don't know, but the little girl understands... Rosemary Willis, a 10-year-old on 11/22, arguably the most important witness in the case. Did the critics eat their pork-n-beans? They ate more chicken than any man's ever seen. Hey hey...

"Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the bank, and of having nothing to do: once or twice she had peeped into the book her sister was reading, but it had no pictures or conversations in it, 'and what is the use of a book,' thought Alice 'without pictures or conversation?' So she was considering in her own mind (as well as she could, for the hot day made her feel very sleepy and stupid), whether the pleasure of making a daisy-chain would be worth the trouble of getting up and picking the daisies, when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her. " L Carroll

The critics don't know, but the little girl understands... Rosemary Willis, a 10-year-old on 11/22, arguably the most important witness in the case.

Always the place to start discussing the JFK assassination! But it isn't enough to point out the obvious entrance in the throat; we must grasp the fact that the round did not exit and no round was recovered. It does? JFK was struck in the throat from the front circa Z190. At Z190 his head was turned sharply to the right. The round nicked the right side of his trachea, bruised the tip of his lung, left a hairline fracture of his right T1 transverse process and an air pocket overlaying C7 and T1. This is inconsistent with a shot from the south knoll, to JFK's left. It is consistent with a shot from Black Dog Man, who had "near the region of his hands" a "very distinct straight-line feature." http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol12_0006a.htm Rosemary Willis described this individual as a "conspicuous" person who managed to "disappear the next instant." Willis 5 (Z202), taken by Phil Willis as a reflex action flinching from the gunshot. BDM red box upper left corner. Thanks to Don Roberdeau's analysis of the Zapruder film we can pinpoint exactly when "the next instant" was -- right before Rosemary's swift head-snap Z214-17. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2394 Hmmm...conspicuous person with a distinct straight line feature near the region of their hands who disappears about a second after JFK was shot in the throat. Hmmmm....if it could get any more obvious I have no idea how.

And then there's David Atlee Phillips a/k/a Maurice Bishop CIA Oswald-handler, fingered by his own family as a Dallas perp....out of Forth Worth, Texas. The Dal-Tex building was owned by Clint Murchison, Sr. and H.L. Hunt. The cops never searched it. It offered the best shooter position in the Plaza.

Hmmm...Can't square that with Phil Willis getting angry with cops running from the shooting positions. I mean, how much suicidal bravery would have it required for average citizens of Dallas to accuse guys dressed as cops of shooting Kennedy? I was being a little "Devil's Advocate" there. If true that would prove conspiracy right? In Dallas in those days DPD could do no wrong. I know I was raised there in the forties, fifties. I went to juvenile hall when a Dallas cop caught me drinking out of a colored marked drinking fountain in a park on a hot August day. My dad had to come down and get me out. I was ten years old. It cost my father ten dollars to get me out. Sorry, I drifted off again. That's why it makes sense to me that the shooters on the north knoll dressed as cops -- who would have the guts to accuse a Dallas cop knowing full well they wouldn't be believed? And Jack White et al did a compelling study of Badgeman -- I chalk up the cop-disguised shooter scenario as a very high likelihood.

Tosh, do you remember what time it was when the abort team reassembled back at the plane?

Hmmm...Can't square that with Phil Willis getting angry with cops running from the shooting positions. I mean, how much suicidal bravery would have it required for average citizens of Dallas to accuse guys dressed as cops of shooting Kennedy?

Not me. The more I look at the case the less of a mystery it becomes. Others report the exact opposite experience studying the case, but that's probably because they spend too much time studying the head wounds. No, I've found that the witnesses tell us all we need to know, pretty much. The witnesses, the Dealey Plaza films/photographs, and the properly prepared contemporaneous documents answer all the key questions, as near as I can tell. Especially this witness: Rosemary Willis. From the HSCA report "Presence of Possible Gunman on Grassy Knoll" http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol12_0006a.htm This is the typical nutteresque interpretation of Rosemary's comments, from Wikipedia: Bollocks! Since when does any American -- much less a Texan like Phil Willis -- get angry when the sheriff's posse rides out after the bad guys? Seems to me like Rosemary and Phillip Willis saw guys dressed as cops immediately leave their ambush positions. What do you think, Tosh?