Cliff Varnell

And on what basis do you impeach the two contemporaneous reports and the 6 other witness statements to the effect there was an entrance wound in his throat? You impeach all these people by disputing Diana Bowron?

The Cuban angle was spiked along time before that! Paul Here's where we diverge. Had Oswald been gunned down as (I'd speculate) planned -- Mickey and Minnie would be knocking back virgin Cuba Libres at the Havana Disneyland, as we speak...

I'm curious what significance is found in Bowron's WC mis-statements. When was Jackie Kennedy, Will Greer, and Roy Kellerman NOT with the body after the arrival at Parkland?

Good point, Michael. She mis-spoke, clearly. Here's what Henchliffe had to say about the visibility of the throat wound, from her WC testimony: (quote on) Mr. SPECTER. Was the wound on the front of the neck surrounded by any blood? Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir. Mr. Specter. Was there any blood at all in that area? Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir. (quote off) I find it hard to believe that Bowron did not see the throat wound. I find it easier to buy the notion that she mis-stated out of nervousness, since on every other point her testimony seems corroborated.

Now this I like! I knew you would... Here's a key point that I don't think Tarpley fully connected. From the Unauthorized Bush: (quote on, emphasis added) The raison d'être of the massive capability commanded by Theodore Shackley was now Operation Mongoose, a program for sabotage raids and assassinations to be conducted on Cuban territory, with a special effort to eliminate Fidel Castro personally. In order to run these operations from US territory, flagrant and extensive violation of federal and state laws was the order of the day. Documents regarding the incorporation of businesses were falsified. Income tax returns were faked. FAA regulations were violated by planes taking off for Cuba or for forward bases in the Bahamas and elsewhere. Explosives moved across highways that were full of civilian traffic. The Munitions Act, the Neutrality Act, the customs and immigrations laws were routinely flaunted. Above all, the drug laws were massively violated as the gallant anti-communist fighters filled their planes and boats with illegal narcotics to be smuggled back into the US when they returned from their missions. By 1963, the drug-running activities of the covert operatives were beginning to attract attention. JM/WAVE, in sum, accelerated the slide of south Florida towards the status of drug and murder capital of the United States it achieved during the 1980's, when it became as notorious as Chicago during Prohibition. (quote off) This is the most likely answer to the question: Why was Kennedy shot? Harriman/Bush et al wanted to take advantage of the smuggling operations from Havana, then to the drilling platforms, then to the mainland -- all nice and clean and unobserved. H.L. Hunt and the other Texan oil men were up to the same thing, I'd speculate. Harriman wanted to woo Castro into the fold; Hunt wanted him assassinated or overthrown. If Oswald had been gunned down Friday afternoon, Harriman would have gone along with the Castro-did-it scenario. After Oswald was captured, Harriman/Bundy pulled a plug on the Castro-did-it scenario to preserve relations with the Russians, and Cuba was "lost."

Hi Dawn, While Diana Bowron certainly mis-spoke in her WC testimony, I think when put into context it is apparent she mis-understood Specter's question. First, let's keep in mind she was all of 22 years old, in-country only four months. From Harrison Livingstone's KILLING THE TRUTH pg. 184, Bowron wrote: (quote on) When I arrived in Minor Medicine [after prepping the body for the casket], I found the patients had been removed elsewhere, and the department had been taken over by the Vice President and his staff. They were getting ready to leave when I got there, as they passed me. I heard the Vice President say to his wife, "Make a note of what everyone says and does." (quote off) Did LBJ actually assign his wife to make a note of what everyone said and did? Obviously not. Why would Lyndon Baines Johnson say such a thing right in front of one of the most important witnesses in the case? For intimidating effect, I'd speculate. Did this obvious intimidation tactic work with Ms. Bowron? KTT, pg 197: (quote on) With regard to Arlen Specter's questioning of her, which seems to give an erroneous impression as to how many wounds she saw, she says: "My answer, 'I just saw one large hole,' was in response to a series of questions about what I saw and did in the car and the condition of his head. As I understand it at the time Specter was taking things sequentially and one large hole in the back of the head was what I first saw in the back of the car. He never asked me about any other wounds, and by the time we got to the end of the interview, I was probably so nervous I put the back wound out of my mind." (quote off) Let's put the above into the context of her WC testimony: (quote on) Mr. SPECTER - And what, in a general way, did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's condition? Miss BOWRON - He was very pale, he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the other side of the car I saw the condition of his head. Mr. SPECTER - You saw the condition of his what? Miss BOWRON - The back of his head. Mr. SPECTER - And what was that condition? Miss BOWRON - Well, it was very bad---you know. Mr. SPECTER - How many holes did you see? Miss BOWRON - I just saw one large hole. Mr. SPECTER - Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole? Miss BOWRON - No, sir. Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any other wound on the President's body? Miss BOWRON - No, sir. (quote off) I think it's clear from her later disclaimer that Bowron did not see any other wound when she was standing on the other side of the car. It appears she was under the impression Specter was asking her if she saw any other wound at that exact moment -- and the answer was, "No, sir."

Cross posted from the "Throat Wound" thread: Arlen Specter and the WC were given with the job of covering up an obvious conspiracy, so this ought not surprise. It shouldn't be that difficult to establish such a time-line, since we're only looking at a few minutes. There's nothing "indeterminate" here...From Henchliffe's WC testimony: (quote on, emphasis added) Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present at the time you first saw [JFK] when he had just come into the emergency area? Miss HENCHLIFFE. Let me see, I think Dr. Carrico was there--he was there very shortly after--afterwards. Mr. SPECTER. He was there when you arrived? Or arrived shortly after you did? Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, actually I went in ahead of the cart with him and I was the first one in with him, and just in a minute, or seconds, Dr. Carrico came in. (quote off) "In a minute, or seconds..." From the WC testimony of Dr. Charles Carrico: (quote on, emphasis added) Mr. SPECTER - Would you continue to describe your observations of the President? Dr. CARRICO - His-- the President's color--I don't believe I said--he was an ashen, bluish, grey, cyanotic, he was making no spontaneous movements, I mean, no voluntary movements at all. We opened his shirt and coat and tie and observed a small wound in the anterior lower third of the neck, listened very briefly, heard a few cardiac beats, felt the President's back, and detected no large or sucking chest wounds, and then proceeded to the examination of his head. (quote off) From the WC testimony of Nurse Diana Bowron: (quote on, emphasis added) Mr. SPECTER - And who was in the trauma room when you arrived there? Miss BOWRON - Dr. Carrico. Mr. SPECTER - Where did Dr. Carrico join you? Miss BOWRON - At the---I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the I.V.'s---the intravenous bottles up. Mr. SPECTER - And were there any other nurses present at that time when the President arrived in the trauma area? Miss BOWRON - I don't think so, sir. Mr. SPECTER - Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico? Miss BOWRON - I didn't notice anybody---there may have been. Mr. SPECTER - What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any? Miss BOWRON - We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the chest tube trays and the venesectron trays. (quote off) Which is nothing compared to the holes in your theory, Ashton. At what point did Jackie Kennedy, Will Greer, and Roy Kellerman leave the body unattended so "Joe" and Di could diddle with the dead Prez? Charles Carrico, WC: (quote on) Mr. SPECTER - Who was the first doctor to reach President Kennedy on his arrival at Parkland Hospital? Dr. CARRICO - I was. Mr. SPECTER - And who else was with President Kennedy on his arrival, as best you can recollect it? Dr. CARRICO - Mrs. Kennedy was there, and there were some men in the room, who I assumed were Secret Service men; I don't know. (quote on) And what did the Secret Service report? From his original written report, Roy Kellerman: (quote on) When we got to the hospital I called to the agents to get two stretchers. The special agents of the follow-up car with the police ran into the hospital, obtained two stretchers on wheels. We placed the Governor on the first one at which time I noticed he was conscious and I spoke to him saying, "Governor, everything is going to be all right." His eyes were wide open and he nodded his head in agreement. Just before we removed the President, SA Hill took off his coat, placed it over the President's head and chest and we placed him on the stretcher. Both were taken into separate emergency rooms. The hospital staff appeared quickly and went immediately to work. I accompanied the President to the emergency room. (quote off) From Will Greer's original Secret Service report: (quote on, emphasis added) I drove as fast as I could to the hospital and helped to get the President into the emergency room. I guarded the emergency room door until the doctors and nurses had completed their duty. (quote off) Let's return to Ms. Bowron's unduly maligned WC testimony, where she describes what she did at the limo: (quote on, emphasis added) Miss BOWRON - I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room and she ran beside us. (quote off) It would appear that Jackie, Kellerman, and Greer were with the body from the time the limo arrived to when the Parkland staff took over in the ER. Does this indict Jackie? Did she pull out a pillbox hat pin and shiv the guy in the throat on the drive to Parkland?

Arlen Specter and the WC were given with the job of covering up an obvious conspiracy, so this ought not surprise. It shouldn't be that difficult to establish such a time-line, since we're only looking at a few minutes. There's nothing "indeterminate" here...From Henchliffe's WC testimony: (quote on, emphasis added) Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present at the time you first saw [JFK] when he had just come into the emergency area? Miss HENCHLIFFE. Let me see, I think Dr. Carrico was there--he was there very shortly after--afterwards. Mr. SPECTER. He was there when you arrived? Or arrived shortly after you did? Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, actually I went in ahead of the cart with him and I was the first one in with him, and just in a minute, or seconds, Dr. Carrico came in. (quote off) "In a minute, or seconds..." From the WC testimony of Dr. Charles Carrico: (quote on, emphasis added) Mr. SPECTER - Would you continue to describe your observations of the President? Dr. CARRICO - His-- the President's color--I don't believe I said--he was an ashen, bluish, grey, cyanotic, he was making no spontaneous movements, I mean, no voluntary movements at all. We opened his shirt and coat and tie and observed a small wound in the anterior lower third of the neck, listened very briefly, heard a few cardiac beats, felt the President's back, and detected no large or sucking chest wounds, and then proceeded to the examination of his head. (quote off) From the WC testimony of Nurse Diana Bowron: (quote on, emphasis added) Mr. SPECTER - And who was in the trauma room when you arrived there? Miss BOWRON - Dr. Carrico. Mr. SPECTER - Where did Dr. Carrico join you? Miss BOWRON - At the---I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the I.V.'s---the intravenous bottles up. Mr. SPECTER - And were there any other nurses present at that time when the President arrived in the trauma area? Miss BOWRON - I don't think so, sir. Mr. SPECTER - Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico? Miss BOWRON - I didn't notice anybody---there may have been. Mr. SPECTER - What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any? Miss BOWRON - We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the chest tube trays and the venesectron trays. (quote off) Which is nothing compared to the holes in your theory, Ashton. At what point did Jackie Kennedy, Will Greer, and Roy Kellerman leave the body unattended so "Joe" and Di could diddle with the dead Prez? Charles Carrico, WC: (quote on) Mr. SPECTER - Who was the first doctor to reach President Kennedy on his arrival at Parkland Hospital? Dr. CARRICO - I was. Mr. SPECTER - And who else was with President Kennedy on his arrival, as best you can recollect it? Dr. CARRICO - Mrs. Kennedy was there, and there were some men in the room, who I assumed were Secret Service men; I don't know. (quote off) And what did the Secret Service report? From his original written report, Roy Kellerman: (quote on) When we got to the hospital I called to the agents to get two stretchers. The special agents of the follow-up car with the police ran into the hospital, obtained two stretchers on wheels. We placed the Governor on the first one at which time I noticed he was conscious and I spoke to him saying, "Governor, everything is going to be all right." His eyes were wide open and he nodded his head in agreement. Just before we removed the President, SA Hill took off his coat, placed it over the President's head and chest and we placed him on the stretcher. Both were taken into separate emergency rooms. The hospital staff appeared quickly and went immediately to work. I accompanied the President to the emergency room. (quote off) From Will Greer's original Secret Service report: (quote on, emphasis added) I drove as fast as I could to the hospital and helped to get the President into the emergency room. I guarded the emergency room door until the doctors and nurses had completed their duty. (quote off) Let's return to Ms. Bowron's unduly maligned WC testimony, where she describes what she did at the limo: (quote on, emphasis added) Miss BOWRON - I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room and she ran beside us. (quote off) It would appear that Jackie, Kellerman, and Greer were with the body from the time the limo arrived to when the Parkland staff took over in the ER. Does this indict Jackie? Did she pull out a pillbox hat pin and shiv the guy in the throat on the drive to Parkland?

Old School? I'm all about the Old School. Sylvia Meagher, ACCESSORIES AFTER THE FACT, pg 150 (quote on) Is it true that the doctors present during the treatment of the President at Parkland Hospital did not form an opinion about the nature of this wound? According to their written reports of the same day, it is not true. Dr. Charles Carrico described a "small penetrating wound" of anterior neck in lower third. (CE 392) Dr. Ronald C. Jones referred to "a small hole in anterior midline of neck thought to be a bullet entrance wound...air was bubbling through the neck wound" (Jones, Ronald, Exhibit 1) Dr. Malcolm O. Perry, Dr. Charles Baxter, and Dr. William Kemp Clark did not suggest in their written reports whether the wound was produced by the entrance or the exit of a bullet. (quote off) In addition to the two contemporaneous written reports, we have the following witness statements. Nurse Margaret Henchliffe WC testimony: (quote on) [A] little hole in the middle of his neck...About as big as the end of my little finger...An entrance bullet hole -- it looked to me like...I have never seen an exit bullet hole -- I don't remember seeing one like that;...it was just a small wound and wasn't jagged like most of the exit bullet wounds that I have seen. (quote off) Nurse Diana Bowron to author Harrison Livingstone, KILLING THE TRUTH, pg 188: (quote on) HL: And, so did you see the wound in the throat before? When he was in the car? DB: Yes. HL: Okay. And what did that look like? DB: Well, that looked like an entry wound. (quote off) Dr. Charles Crenshaw, CONSPIRACY OF SILENCE, pg 79: (quote on) I also identified a small opening about the diameter of a pencil at the midline of his throat to be an entry bullet hole. There was no doubt in my mind about that wound. (quote off) Dr. Gene Akin's WC testimony: (quote on) Mr. SPECTER - What was the dimension of the punctate wound, without regards to the tracheotomy which was being started? Dr. AKIN - It looked--it was as you said, it was a puncture wound. It was roughly circular, about, I would judge, 1.5 cm. in diameter. (quote off) Dr. Charles Baxter's WC testimony: (quote on) Mr. Specter - Were the characteristics of the wound on the neck sufficient to enable you to form an opinion with reasonable medical certainty as to what was the cause of the hole? Dr. Baxter - Well, the wound was, I think, compatible with a gunshot wound. It did not appear to be a jagged wound such as one would expect with a very high velocity rifle bullet. We could not determine, or did not determine at that time whether this represented an entry or an exit wound. Judging from the caliber of the rifle that we later found or become acquainted with, this would more resemble a wound of entry. (quote off) Dr. Malcolm Perry's 11/22/63 televised press conference: (quote on) There was an entrance wound in the neck…It appeared to be coming at him…The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes, that is correct. (quote off)

Of course you didn't. I did. I cited the extant medical evidence. Soon, I'll be posting those wound descriptions you have made false claims about. I pointed out the physical damage to JFK according to the extant medical record.The nature of the throat wound is crucial to understanding the assassination, imo. If that idea threatens you, get another hobby, perhaps. Ashton, you apparently have a sense of entitlement about this topic, as if it is yours to explore without challenge. I regard the throat wound as important, and your effort to distort the record on the throat wound will get push back from me every time. Foretold -- forewarned. Since you're making all this up on the fly, I'm sure you'll get around to trying to fit the extant evidence to your pet theory -- although you promised your last word on the subject, I'm sure it isn't.

But you've made an unsupported assumption, Ashton, to the effect that JFK's posture in the autopsy more accurately approximated JFK's posture in the limo than the Fort Worth photo. What do the motorcade photos show? And another photo was put in evidence contrary to your claim.Do you give a good faith rebuttal? Do you calmly discuss other photos? Indeed, note in the photo on the left there was a fold of skin between JFK's adams apple and the tie-knot. In the Fort Worth photo he held his head up, stretching the neck folds, and the fold seen at the base of his adams apple is the upper margin of this same fold of skin, between the adams apple and the tie-knot. Now, here's a shot of JFK seated in the motorcade. The fold of skin on the left side of his neck angles down to form the fold of skin below the adams apple but above the tie-knot. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/MCade.htm JFK was shot in that exposed location -- above the tie knot but below the adams apple -- from the Black Dog Man position at Z197, imo.

Let's put some back-ground to above with this passage from GEORGE BUSH: The Unauthorized Biography, by Webster G. Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin, Chpt 8. http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm (quote on, emphasis added) Bush and the Liedtkes [J. Hugh and William] had been very lucky with the Jameson field [Zapata's main Texas field], but they could hardly expect such results to be repeated indefinitely. In addition, they were now ['57 -'59] posting losses, and the value of Zapata stock had gone into a decline. Bush and the Liedtke brothers now concluded that the epoch in which large oil fields could be discovered within the continental United States was now over. Mammoth new oil fields, they believed, could only be found offshore, located under hundreds of feet of water on the continental shelves, or in shallow seas like the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean. By a happy coincidence, in 1954 the US federal government was just beginning to auction the mineral rights for these offshore areas. With father Prescott Bush directing his potent Brown Brothers, Harriman/Skull and Bones network from the US Senate while regularly hob-nobbing with President Eisenhower on the golf links, George Bush could be confident of receiving special privileged treatment when it came to these mineral rights. Bush and his partners therefore judged the moment ripe for launching a for-hire drilling company, Zapata Offshore, a Delaware corporation that would offer its services to the companies making up the Seven Sisters international oil cartel in drilling underwater wells... ...The first asset of Zapata Offshore was the SCORPION, a $ 3.5 million deep-sea drilling rig that was financed by $1.5 million from the initial stock sale plus another $2 million from bonds marketed with the help of Uncle Herbie [Walker]. The SCORPION was the first three-legged self-elevating mobile drilling barge, and it was built by R. G. LeTourneau, Inc., of Vicksburg, Mississippi. The platform weighed some 9 million pounds and measured 180 by 150 feet, and the three legs were 140 feet long when fully extended. The rig was floated into the desired drilling position before the legs were extended, and the main body was then pushed up above the waves by electric motors. The SCORPION was delivered early in 1956, and was commissioned at Galveston in March, 1956, and was put to work at exploratory drilling in the Gulf of Mexico during the rest of the year... ...As for the SCORPION, during part of 1957 it was under contract to the Bahama-California Oil Company, drilling between Florida and Cuba. It was then leased by Gulf Oil and Standard Oil of California, on whose behalf it started drilling during 1958 at a position on the Cay Sal Bank, 131 miles south of Miami, Florida, and just 54 miles north of Isabela, Cuba. Cuba was an interesting place just then; the US-backed insurgency of Fidel Castro was rapidly undermining the older US-imposed regime of Fulgencio Batista. That meant that SCORPIO was located at a hot corner. (quote off) Well well well. All that time the CIA was supporting the Fidelistas Mr. George Bush of the CIA had a mobile oil drilling platform 54 miles off the coast of Cuba. He could run maintainence crews on and off that platform to the Florida mainland without going thru US customs inspection. Bush's Zapata Off-Shore didn't do all that much oil exploration, but "Uncle Herbie" Walker kept pouring money into it. Speculation: they were running guns and drugs with the Fidelistas. In the fall of 1963 W. Averell Harriman wanted rapproachment with Fidel. It looked like the best way to take advantage of the opportunity of having a business partner in Havana for the smuggling operations on these oil platforms. I'd speculate the HL Hunt disagreed, and he distrusted Harriman. I suspect little George Bush went native and sided with Hunt. It was all about those mineral rights in the Caribbean, and the opportunity to combine the oil industry with the illicit trade in guns and drugs. A co-operative government in Havana meant billions and billions of smuggling dollars. Harriman thought he had Castro under control, but Bush's boys scared Castro right into the Soviet arms. Just as his boy screwed up over Iraq, I'd speculate that George HW screwed up over Cuba.

I hope so. That would be more ludicrous than the idea he could have been shot in the indicated location without the projectile going through the shirt, tie, or both. Ashton, your suited cadaver shows JFK's tie knot at the bottom of his adams apple. This photo from Fort Worth Eleven Twenty Two shows that there was some distance between the adams apple and the shirt collar, right where the throat wound was observed. Why did this medical-hit squad nick the right side of JFK's trachea, bruise the tip of his right lung, and then cause a hairline fracture at the tip of his right T1 transverse process? They wheeled the guy in with a big part of his head blown off and they "finished him off" by inflicting utterly non-fatal, perhaps insignificant wounds -- wounds which indicate a shot from the front and thus conspiracy? Why? Are you asking us to buy this on faith, dear Ashton?

Bingo! Key evidence in the case, I'm 95% certain. The metallic fragments were most dense at the point of deepest penetration, enough to cause a tiny fracture of the right tip of the T1 transverse process. What kind of ordance leaves a metallic trail but no bullet? From CIA SPECIAL WEAPONS AND EQUIPMENT, by H. Keith Melton (foreword by Richard Helms, 1965), pg 22: Because the round that struck JFK in the throat was at least 10 times larger than the one cited in this reference book, the iron bonding particles showed up on x-ray. The larger blood soluble technology was pioneered by Charles Senseney, who developed a dog-silencer for the us Army and the CIA. Senseny testified before the Church Committee in the Senate in 1976, as did William Casey and Richard Helms, verifying the existence of a small caliber blood soluble round that paralyzed the target within 2 seconds. Casey testified that this was experimented with upon humans. http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/r..._6_Senseney.pdf I find it a reasonable conclusion (95%) that Mitch WerBell adapted this technology to a sound suppressed firearm, which was fired from the Black Dog Man position circa Z197.

I think Cooper is nutty. I saw this video-taped speech he gave where he cited the Novermber, 22, 1307 hit the Pope put on Jacque DeMolay, suggesting the 11/22/63 hit on Kennedy was a Masonic revenge killing (I have no opinion on that point), and then Cooper intoned with great import -- "Subtract 1307 from 1963 and what do you get? 6...6...6! Think about it!" When you subtract 1307 from 1963 you get 656.

Is it possible Ashton Gray could have picked worse photos to judge the location of JFK's adams apple? The wound was below the adams apple right above the knot of the tie. JFK did NOT wear his shirt collar right at the level of his adams apple, as per the Gospel of Ashton Gray

That's what happens when people start with a conclusion and work backwardsto make all the evidence fit the conclusion, like this exercise dressing a dead man. Ah, it must be great to have a pet theory that arbitrarily indicts people for treason and murder because what they say doesn't fit the theory. How fun!

I wrote: That assessment doesn't spare me from certain people's self-righteous screeds, alas. A lot of people were making real money in Cuba. The oil companies had drilling platforms 40 miles off the Cuban coast. "Maintanence runs" between the platforms and the Florida mainland were not subject to customs checks. How much easier the illicit drug and gun running interests would have had it if there'd only been a friendly gov't in Havana and not the US Navy running a blockade... G.uns O.il D.rugs. At the center of the Kennedy assassination -- a nexus located in Texas.

Really. Personally, I couldn't care less why people arrive at the conclusions they do. I think this is a venue of fact based argument, so such personal speculation appears counter-productive. You have a strange manner of introducing these ideas. Always with the sleazy insinuations. Since you put it that way, we have the basis for a discussion. JFK came into Parkland with a good part of his brains blown out. If the staff at Parkland had been prepped to finish the dude off, why did they nick the right side of the trachea, bruise the tip of the lung, and produce a tiny fracture of the T1 transverse process? I mean, the guy is laying there with his brains out and they "finished him off" with a nick and a bruise and a hairline fracture? No, the throat wound tells a different story. Small caliber. Did not exit. Left a field of metallic debris at its point of deepest penetration. JFK acted paralyzed in the limo -- simplest explanation -- because he WAS paralyzed. All consistent with a Mitch WerBell adaptation of Charles Senseney's blood soluble paralytic technology. http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/r..._6_Senseney.pdf http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwerbell.htm And that is why the plotters felt confident they'd get the job done in Dealey.

Wow. There are disinformation agents assigned to keep the controversy in suspension. Nice way to forstall debate, eh, Ashton? A pre-emptive smear? Are we to take the above upon faith since, according to the Gospel of Ashton Gray, Diana Bowron, Margret Henchcliffe, and Charles Carrico -- the first people to treat JFK in the ER -- must have been perps? Otherwise Ashton wouldn't have a pet theory to pimp? Any support for your allegations, Ashton?

duped

Cliff Varnell: Paul, we can debate the "significance" of the Operation Northwoods documents all day long, but it isn't going to change the fact that these EXIST. Paul Rigby: Cliff, never said they didn't. Because the patsy, carefully sheep-dipped as a Castro agent in league with the KGB, was captured alive on Eleven Twenty Two. For the sheep-dipping to hold he had to be gunned down. On this point the plot ultimately failed. They did. New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. FPCC leafletting in public August '63. "Leon Oswald" visit to Sylvia Odio. The Pedro Charles letters. Oswald's visits to the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City under the watchful eye of David Phillips. The Yates FBI report: Oswald look-a-like picked up hitch-hiking with suspicious package in hand -- talked of both the Carosel Club and killing JFK. (SWHT, Hancock, pgs 222-226.) The Gilberto Alvarado Story: Oswald hired to kill JFK by red-headed black Cuban, pimped right after the assassination by Phillips et al MEXI. (ibid, pgs 220-1). (ibid, Hancock, pg 13): (quote on) Immediately following the assassination, FBI and CIA informant Richard Cain (an associate of Sam Giancana and participant in the very early Roselli organized attempts against Castro) began aggressively reporting that Lee Oswald had been associated with a FPCC group in Chicago that had held secret meetings in the spring of 1963 planning the assassination of President Kennedy... ...Following the assassination, John Martino and Frank Fiorini/Sturgis of Miami, and Carlos Bringuier of New Orleans, all began telling the same story about Oswald visiting Cuba and being a personal tool of Fidel Castro. Strangely enough, on the afternoon of November 22 after Oswald's arrest, J. Edgar Hoover also related that the FBI had monitored Oswald on visits to Cuba. Hoover wrote in a 4:01pm EST memo on November 22: "Oswald...went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for." Hoover repeated this information again an hour later in a memo of 5:15pm EST... (quote off) If J. Edgar Hoover had announced on the evening of Friday, November 22 1963 that an agent of Fidel Castro had shot President Kennedy the US would have been on the march. As Larry Hancock notes, all of the above would have worked if the patsy had shown up dead -- but the patsy alive made the sheep-dipping untenable. I don't follow you, here. The only "contradictory step" Oswald took was *not* get shot. Other than that, Angleton/Phillips had him all set up to point to Castro, but only upon early demise. CV: It is a fact that Neo-Con foreign policy is often based on ginned-intel, witness the current war in Iraq. PR: Absolutely - but not just Neo-Con. Hasn't this mostly been the case? CV: The US doesn't always run false flag ops...It appears to be the favored foreign policy gambit of super-hawk militarists. Ashton has, as you yourself noted, and you indicated you agreed. I'm glad to see that you do not agree with Ashton's off-hand dismissal of such possibilities, as it turns out. Very well. I'll sum up by holding the Monroe Doctrine as sacrosant in the eyes of the American ruling elite. Concentrated European influence 90 miles off the American shore has been a thorn in the side of US pride for 48 years now. CV: I don't see where you show any proof that the anti-Castro forces were any less committed to the overthrow of Castro merely because other factions in the American ruling elite desired a different result. Here is a list of the guys -- call 'em the Dirty Dozen -- who had an "enduring determination" to overthrow Castro: Gen. Edward Lansdale David Atlee Phillips David Sanchez Morales Allen Dulles H. L. Hunt Sam Giancana George H. W. Bush Gen. Curtis LeMay Gen. Lyman Lemnitzer J. Edgar Hoover Richard Helms James Jesus Angleton Now, are you going to tell me these guys didn't have power?

And what Latin American countries did the US *not* have hegemonic economic/politicalcontrol over in the late 50's and early 60's? The CIA could always fund local rebel groups if they wanted to establish a pre-text for greater intervention in a country's affairs-- why would they turn this function over to Fidel Castro? And such wasn't the case BEFORE the fall of Batista? Tell that to a quarter million dead Guatamalans... Apples and oranges! Big difference between SE Asia and Latin America. The US had the Monroe Doctrine working for about 140 years in Latin America, and they didn't need a Communist take-over of very valuable real estate in order to enforce regional hegemony. I think you've made a fundamental mis-reading of American history in this instance, Paul, with all due respect. When it comes to the affairs of Asia, the US has long sought bogeymen, granted (Mao, Ho, Saddam, Osama). But that strategy wasn't necessary in the Western Hemisphere. Not enough to give up the jewel of the Caribbean! The US didn't leverage Fidel to go after Allende, after all.

Most intriguing, John.The State Department reference reads W. Averell Harriman, imo. Lower echelons of the CIA...That's one to ponder... Was there a "monolithic" CIA policy toward Batista? Larry Hancock's SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TALKED, pg 125: I think the Yankee/Cowboy dichotomy applies to this instance, the divisions within the CIA over Castro policy in Havana in 1958. Please note that I am not careless in my application of the Y/C dichotomy. Ashton accuses me of "soft pedaling" it, but I prefer to think of it as simply being intellectually honest.

What was "never implemented"? JM/WAVE was not the largest CIA station in 1963? Ed Lansdale wasn't put in charge of Operation Mongoose in 1961? Those programs were implemented, but without success. The Joint Chiefs didn't regard the extant anti-Castro efforts likely to achieve success. James Bamford's BODY OF SECRETS pg 87, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Lyman Lemnitzer wrote in a memorandum to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, April 10, 1962: (emphasis added) Paul, the U.S. has asserted hegemonic domination of the entire Western Hemisphere since the Monroe Doctrine. The US MIC did not need a "boogey man" to keep the Western Hemisphere in line in 1958, the year of greatest US support for Fidel. Just ask Arbenz, '54... I don't buy the notion that the US ruling class had a monolithic interest in maintaining Fidel Castro as a bogeyman. Mr. George Bush of the CIA owned oil exploration rigs off the coast of Florida. In the '80's, Mr. George Bush of the CIA was the Vice President, and also the Action Officer for the Nicaraguan Contra supply network. The Contra supply network smuggled guns and drugs. I can't say for sure that Mr. George Bush of the CIA was smuggling drugs onto his drilling facilities (and then having the drugs boated ashore with no customs check) in 1963, but given his later career in Contra drug smuggling it is a reasonable speculation. So, wouldn't it have been easier and more profitable for Mr. George Bush of the CIA to have had a friendly government right next to his oil rigs instead of a US Naval blockade? I think Santo Trafficante had a very powerful preppy ally in all his deeds... Neither Yankee nor Cowboy (or Yankee gone Cowboy), Mr. George Bush of the CIA had more to gain personally from a Castro overthrow than just about anybody, I'd reckon. Be well, good sir!