Myra Bronstein
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Posts posted by Myra Bronstein
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"Jerry Rubin ... Somewhat of a friend to John Lennon." ? - John describes meeting Jerry with some trepidation. In a short time, he recognised, what he already knew in principle, that the persona created by the Media is frequently different from the truth, and saw in Jerry a true artist, Jerry responded that he saw in John a true revolutionary. Jerry, and other people John and Yoko met in NY were a significant part of John 'falling in love' with NYC.
"Peter, I always wondered about the death of the photographer James Altgens because he and his wife were found dead in their house. I haven't found anything about the autopsy but from an article I saved from St Pete times DEC 15, 1995.
"the Bodies of Mr Altgens and his wife Clara, were found Tuesday at their home in Dallas, according to an employee of Sparkman-Hillcrest Funeral Home. Autopsies were ordered and toxicology tests were under way....said Laurie Nazzreno of the Dallas County medical examiners office" "
I understand the verdict was carbon monoxide poisoning. (If found in the house and not in a car, there are precedents in murder where a hose is introduced through an opening into a closed room like a bed room for example.)
http://hyderabadin.org/wiki-Bob_Dylan
"By 1963, Dylan and Baez were both prominent in the civil rights movement, singing together at rallies including the March on Washington where Martin Luther King, Jr. gave his "I have a dream" speech.Dylan performed "Only a Pawn in their Game" and "When the Ship Comes In"... His next album, "The Times They Are a-Changin", reflected a more sophisticated, politicized and cynical Dylan...The Brechtian-influenced "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" describes a young socialite's killing of a hotel maid. The song never explicitly mentions race, but many sources wrote it leaves no doubt that the killer is white, the victim black....
By the end of 1963, Dylan felt both manipulated and constrained by the folk-protest movement. Accepting the "Tom Paine Award" from the National Emergency Civil Liberties Committee at a ceremony shortly after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, a drunken, rambling Dylan questioned the role of the committee, insulted its members as old and balding, and claimed to see something of himself (and of every man) in assassin Lee Harvey Oswald..."
"You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?"
I got the impression from watching US vs John Lennon
(http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=777046699234389996&q=The+U.S.+versus+John+Lennon)
that towards the end Lennon and Ono felt used and mistreated by Rubin.
Apparently Hoffman & Rubin committed Lennon & Ono to protesting at the Republican National Convention (in Fla?) at a time when Lennon/Ono were realizing that their lives were in danger from their political outspokenness, and they refused to be manipulated into going to the convention.
John expressed anger about it on Mike Douglas's show, and Yoko talked about it in footage near the end of the movie.
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I have been seeing this spin for awhile now. In many articles recenty and some not so recent books. (As far back as Henry Hurt's Reasonable Doubt in the 80's): putting the kill -Castro plots on Bobby. I won't even read Ultimate Sacrifice for this reason and this type of disinformation ruined Joan Mellen's book for me. It was always clear to me that when cover story one:- LN LHO- got discredited, the two fall- back positions would be The Mob did it, or Castro did it because the Kennedys were trying to kill Castro. CIA disinformation that Op Mockingbird will be happy to peddle.
Dawn
Well I suffered through Ultimate Sacrifice and applaud you on your wisdom in opting not to Dawn.
I consider it a "mob dunnit" book in lockstep with official HSCA cover-up #2.
To add insult to injury it's several hundred pages too long and agonizingly redundant.
Why is it that disinfo books tend to be overlong?
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I suppose they're hoping to occupy us with these red herrings for as long as possible, possibly with a little gratuitous torture thrown in for spite.
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Myra, my answer is a bit less global in scope than the others but it would also be yes.
However it would be very specific and involves the names in the chapter of my last appendix on a
small clique in the CIA. I'm virtually certain that it was the broader drug/arms "network" which served as
the incubator and shield for the people who murdered JFK; without its power they might not
have had the means, even if they had the will.
Don't think just drugs though, think drugs and arms...the two go hand in hand with these folks.
The weapons buy the political influence the want and the drugs fund the power game.
-- Larry
Ok, thanks Larry.
I'm looking at that appendix right now, in fact I'm re-reading your book. A lot to absorb there.
Drugs and arms, right.
Can't have planes taking guns somewhere then coming back empty. That's bad business. Take guns and return with drugs. That's good business.
On edit:
I re-read the appendix Larry.
Fascinating stuff about Underhill.
Also, the arms angle is interesting in light of the apparent fact that Oswald was part of some kind of investigation into the ease of ordering guns by mail (Senator Dodd's investigation?). Probably just a coincidence.
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Myra: "What do y'all think?"
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
What I think probably doesn't gel with most, but it is an aspect that will be attempted to be dealt with in "Foundations: Dreams of a Grand Southern Empire" leading to "Foundations and Empire" and thus to "Empire". This will be from the point of view of over a hundred years ago involving financing of various Western groupings through the then opium trade.
Another aspect is that the "Golden Triangle" is not just about drugs, it's significantly also about precious stones, minerals, gems and territory including the evolution of post foreign-control of China and Chinas particular 'Manifest destiny'.
In a broad historical sense (IMO), Kennedy threatened to interrupt a stream of historical events that certain powerful forces could not accommodate.
I think it's really important to recognize that Kennedy interrupted an ongoing process, many ongoing processes actually.
I wonder if any uncorrupted person could have survived as president at that point in time with all those forces aligned against them.
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At the risk of sounding synchophatic (not a word - I just made it up), I totally agree with Gary Loughran and Charles Drago.
They said it better than I could. The Seagraves' book is an instant classic.
Honesty compels me to admit I only finished a third of it, read the last chapter and put it down. I'm blaming Larry Hancock, Gerald McKnight, George Michael Evica, Michael Kurtz, Edward Haslam, and Paris Flammonde, and most recently, David Talbot.
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Funny, I'm blaming Larry Hancock too.
I just put another book (a thousand pager...
) on pause to reread Someone Would Have Talked.I'll get back to that other book but I really needed another pass at SWHT.
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I've read almost nothing on this subject and am starting to wonder if that's an oversight.
Peter Dale Scott places great emphasis on the significance of the international drug trade in his book "Deep Politics."
However I haven't read his books that focus more directly on the subject, such as "Cocaine Politics" & "Drugs, Oil & War."
More specifically, no matter how much I read about the Vietnam war I can't find a satisfactory answer to the question "why indochina?"
Hi Myra,
This may be of use, not drugs but gold. I found it to be a vitally important topic on the forum in my macro understanding of the murkier side of things in that part of the world.
I hope you find it as important as me. I believe Sterling was ill but is or should be back with us soon.
Gary
Thank you Gary. This is just the kind of thing I want to read. And I wasn't aware of the book 'til you mentioned it.
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Myra
Alfred McCoy in his books confirms your suspicions.
It never ended, Oliver North brought the industry to
Central America in the 1980s and just look at the
situation in Afghanistan today !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes Shanet. And didn't the Taliban prohibit growing of poppies as well as refuse to allow the US access to the caspian pipeline?
So many reasons to invade; so few tall terrorists in caves.
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Robert Gaylon Ross offered a theory regarding the countries of Iran, Iraq, North Korea, which basically stated that a possible ulterior motive that these countries would have been targeted by the West is due to the fact that they are three of the small handfull of countries which, do not have a Central Bank, interesting idea......
Really interesting idea Robert.
I don't think it would be the first time that a country is punished for refusing to turn over their monetary system to private central bankers.
I read that the Rothschild banker Jacob Schiff retaliated against Russian Tsars, who spurned central banks & supported President Lincoln (who bypassed the central banks to print his own greenbacks), by spending $20 million through the firm, Kuhn, Loeb & Co. to finance the Russian Revolution.
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Going with the lone nut scenario out of desperation also explains body alteration. Surely the original plan did not call for stealing the body and butchering the head. But when they hurriedly decided to frame Oswald alone and there could be no shots from the front, the body had to be altered accordingly.
But even that was done masterfully although on the fly. The shell game that went on with the caskets and body between Dallas and the autopsy table is still impossible to follow.
Ron, I really think David Lifton comes up with a plausible scenario in Best Evidence.
I think the body was taken from the casket on Air Force 1 during the LBJ swearing in ceremony while it was on the ground.
And I think that's why LBJ insisted on the immediate swearing in, to keep the plane on the ground, and Jackie was forced to attend the ceremony to leave the casket unattended, which she was not otherwise inclined to do.
So the big heavy casket was empty when it arrived in DC, and empty when it arrived at Bethesda. But it weighed so much it wasn't obvious.
The body was reunited with the casket at Bethesda, after arriving in the body bag described by Paul O'Connor.
The alteration on the body was done either at Walter Reed in DC (per Lifton) or in Dallas (or en route I suppose).
There was a segment in The Men Who Killed Kennedy that dealt with a Dallas coroner that may have done the work, based on what his wife/ex-wife said.
I don't recall his name.
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Gary, Myra and Lee,
I think Zapruder was completely innocent of having any knowledge of what was going to happen in Dealey Plaza but I do suspect he was handled to be there, as were several other folk with cameras. Has anyone ever pondered how thin the crowds were at the killing site yet not 100 yards away, people stood several deep? Why didn't they just filter down along Elm? Again, if things went to plan, I submit that the Babuska Lady's film would have seen the light of day which seemingly covered the knoll and fence area showing the multiple shooter conspiracy.
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James
Now I'm more inclined to believe that Babushka Lady was in fact Betty Oliver. She would have had the connections to put here at the scene with a camera.
Do you have a (humble
) opinion on Babushka Lady's identity James? -
Also, I assume Tippit fit into the plan by being Lee's driver to the airport.
Any theory about what went wrong there and got Tippit prematurely killed?
I assume that's where the plot fell apart.
Not according to Martino anyway. The plot would have fallen apart when Oswald was discovered at the Theatre, and Tippit would have been an unplanned casualty.
'Poor dumb cop.'
- lee
Oh, I just now read that quote in context:
http://www.jfklancer.com/WCnar.html
It was new to me.
Thanks Lee.
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And Gary, one more thing, if the plotters were indeed planning to attach Oswald to a Castro backed conspiracy then they would have no problems placing shooters to the front of JFK, and they would most certainly make sure the killing was filmed so to demonstrate to the American people this hideous conspiracy led by a lunatic Communist not 100 miles from U.S. soil.
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James
This puts the brutal and public nature of the murder in another light.
Whereas it first seemed like they were sending a message that they can and will arrogantly blow away those that cross them and dare to think they are really president, it would now seem like they wanted it public and horrible to evoke maximum horror and hatred against Castro to fuel the resulting Cuba invasion.
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Henrik Kruger, The Great Heroin Coup: Drugs, Intelligence, and International Fascism, published in Boston by the South End Press in 1980....
The ideal place to start, Myra.
I believe one can generally count on Charles D to recommend a good book. Like you Myra, he is a reader. A couple of other items:
Alfred McCoy: The Politics of HeroinA brief, but informative Forum thread with comments by the author:The CIA, the Military & DrugsJust the synopses of these Radio Free America broadcasts are fascinating:Thanks Charles & Mike. My next step was to ask for reading recommendations. Now I don't need to.
I sure think it's weird that the "progressive" radio station "Air America" used the exact name as the CIA drug running airline.
I wonder if they're aware of that.
Or if it was intentional.
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I've read almost nothing on this subject and am starting to wonder if that's an oversight.
Peter Dale Scott places great emphasis on the significance of the international drug trade in his book "Deep Politics."
However I haven't read his books that focus more directly on the subject, such as "Cocaine Politics" & "Drugs, Oil & War."
More specifically, no matter how much I read about the Vietnam war I can't find a satisfactory answer to the question "why indochina/why Vietnam?" (I know the war machine wanted a profitable war, but how did they settle specifically on Vietnam?) until I start factoring in drugs.
There's a good summary here:
"Perhaps the biggest secret of the Vietnam War is that our Central Intelligence Agency seized control of the infamous Golden Triangle during that time period, then, along with assistance from various elements of Organized Crime, shipped huge amounts of heroin out of that area into our country. Because piles of money were being made from this practice and many others, those who stood to profit from this horrendous war — the armament manufacturers, bankers, military men, and drug dealers — met any suggestion to withdraw from Vietnam with immediate consternation. But that's exactly what John F. Kennedy intended to do upon re-election. In fact, he had already planned on telling the American people that their troops would be back home by 1965. Think about this momentous decision for a moment. If we had exited Vietnam by 1965, EIGHT years of bloodshed in the jungles and civil unrest on America's streets and campuses could have been alleviated.
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So, even though the above information is only the tip of the iceberg, now do you see why it was so important to the CIA/Mobster/international banker cabal that JFK didn't pull America out of Vietnam? The money (via illegal drug trafficking and for the War Machine) was incredible, while CONTROL of another area of the globe (the Golden Triangle) was secured.
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http://www.serendipity.li/cia/babel1/finaljudgment92.html
Obviously this drug angle is especially, potentially, important for those of us who think that President Kennedy's determination for peace was his undoing.
What do y'all think?
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Myra,
BTW, the guy on the right is Ruben Carbajal who was one of those present when Morales made his infamous quote about 'taking care of that SOB.'
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Ah, interesting. Thank you James.
...And Gary, one more thing, if the plotters were indeed planning to attach Oswald to a Castro backed conspiracy then they would have no problems placing shooters to the front of JFK, and they would most certainly make sure the killing was filmed so to demonstrate to the American people this hideous conspiracy led by a lunatic Communist not 100 miles from U.S. soil.
If things went to plan that day, I believe the Zapruder film would have been broadcast to the world immediately.
James
This is really helpful to understand the original plot as opposed to the revised plot.
I think we all know to observe who benefited.
But we need to look also at who would have benefited if things had gone according to plan a.
So, to follow up on Gary's question--was Zapruder more than a simple dress maker?
Also, I assume Tippit fit into the plan by being Lee's driver to the airport.
Any theory about what went wrong there and got Tippit prematurely killed?
I assume that's where the plot fell apart.
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Hey, has anyone ever seen the photo referred to below?
"Another example of Morales indiscretion was allowing his photograph to be taken by Kevin Schofield at the El Molino restaurant on 4th August, 1973. The picture appeared in the Arizona Republic with the following text: “Feted by friends at a fiesta Saturday was former American counsul to Cuba, David Sanchez, left, who was in that country when Castro took over… In government service for 28 years, Sanchez is now consultant in the office of deputy director for Operations Counter-insurgency and Special Activities in Washington.” (Myra Bronstein)
Myra,
Here is that photograph.
James
Thank you James!
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Thanks Shanet.
Hey, has anyone ever seen the photo referred to below?
"Another example of Morales indiscretion was allowing his photograph to be taken by Kevin Schofield at the El Molino restaurant on 4th August, 1973. The picture appeared in the Arizona Republic with the following text: “Feted by friends at a fiesta Saturday was former American counsul to Cuba, David Sanchez, left, who was in that country when Castro took over… In government service for 28 years, Sanchez is now consultant in the office of deputy director for Operations Counter-insurgency and Special Activities in Washington.”
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It was part of the overall conspiracy to keep Castro in power. The presence of a communist state so close to the United States helped to reinforce the communist threat and the need for massive arms spending.
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John,
Do you feel that there was a time when the CIA genuinely wanted to topple Castro?
If so then when did they change their policy from wanting to nail Castro to wanting him preserved as the boogeyman close to home?
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Please add William Harvey to the list... he had all the right connections and associations, one heck of a motive, and the exclusive means.
I agree about Harvey Gene, and have him on my original list.
David Talbot gave details of Harvey in his book "Brothers" that make him seem like a prime suspect.
By "one heck of a motive" do you mean his job reassignment within the CIA after he pissed off the Kennedys?
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If I'm looking at the figure under consideration, he appears to be African-American.
DSM by all accounts was "darkly complected." But in none of the admittedly few photos we have of him can he be described as African-American.
So ... was he wearing make-up in Dealey Plaza?
And how can we leap to a judgment of this figure's height beyond noting that he is, so to speak, head and shoulders above the crowd?
I would not discount the possibility that DSM, were he at the scene, might have had cause to be milling around the TSBD steps; perhaps something went wrong, an operative was missing, etc.
But based on what we have ... not to my eyes.
Charles
I agree that the man in question is African American and therefore not Morales.
Myra, allow me to disagree. If one carefully looks at the BBC videotape, from the RFK assassination on youtube, one can clearly see Morales and he’s very much alike the man in the Murray photograph.
Johansson
Well Mark that assumes that the man photographed at the Ambassador was Morales.
And I'm unconvinced that it is.
However, now that I realize how dark Morales was, and presumably he could get a tan just like anyone else and be even darker on a given year, I'll look again. I haven't seen many photos of him though so I don't have much to compare against.
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I tend to think Ruby was telling the truth to the Warren Commission Cliff, not that they wanted to hear it.
Ruby was telling as much of the truth as he could and still avoid dying in jail...oops!
He talked too much, mayhaps...
Myra, a book I'd recommend for you is the James Ellroy novel, AMERICAN TABLOID.
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Thanks for the recommendation Cliff; I'll check it out.
...A good member of the John Birch Society like H. L. Hunt wouldn't think twice
about framing up any number of right-wing riflemen as patsies if he thought
it would help protect his interests.
It seem like every list of suspects/perps should include HL Hunt. But not every list I see here does.
Don't understand that.
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David Talbot had this to say about websites and the JFK assassination.
In my opinion, the two best Web sites for information and discussion about the JFK assassination are the Mary Ferrell Foundation and the Education Forum. The Mary Ferrell site, named after the late JFK research pioneer, is run by a talented Massachusetts software expert-turned-Kennedy archivist named Rex Bradford. The site is an oasis of calm and orderly rationality whose deep well of resources appeals to everyone from student novices to hardcore buffs. Bradford has amassed more than 400,000 documents on the site, including many invaluable declassified government papers. And his video archive -- including not only the infamous Zapruder film but a number of other more obscure home movies taken in Dealey Plaza -- vividly bring that day to life. Other videos -- including TV interviews with JFK and the stunning live broadcast of Lee Harvey Oswald being gunned down by Jack Ruby -- also make this history seem powerful and immediate.
The Education Forum, a sprawling complex of chat rooms covering a broad spectrum of history subjects, was created by an enterprising British scholar named John Simkin. Its many discussion threads on the Kennedy presidency and its violent end are provocative and refreshingly free of the obsessive nuttiness and flame-throwing that characterize many online Kennedy circles. Simkin's forum has attracted respected JFK researchers like Anthony Summers and Larry Hancock, as well as dozens of serious amateur historians well worth talking with, and even the occasional aging source with some firsthand information about the case.
The Mary Ferrell Foundation and Education Forum sites are both shining examples of communal learning and research -- exactly what the Internet was intended to do, in all its democratic glory.
Talbot speaks the truth.
And the Education forum/Spartacus is free.
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EXCELLENT LIST OF PERPS.
Indeed. Interesting how we all come up with the same names.There are going to be minor variations on the list -- I'd include the
back-up patsies E. Howard Hunt, Charles Harrelson, Jack Lawrence.
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Harrelson, of course. Should be on the list.So you think he was patsy fodder eh Cliff?
Jack Lawrence is new to me so I'm reading about him at Spartacus.
I think Charles Harrelson was a career patsy. Went to prison for
a crime he didn't commit. I think the plotters allowed for a contingency
wherein JFK's murder was to be blamed on the John Birch Society,
and I'd speculate Harrelson was sheep-dipped to play the part of a right
wing killer, just as Oswald was framed as an agent of Fidel.
However, the afternoon of 11/22/63, the "official" decision was one lone nut
and three shots.
I think this photograph captures the moment "Ed Lansdale" signaled
to E. Howard Hunt that all was well, in spite of the police escort.
Note that Old Tramp approaches the man Gen. Victor Krulak fingers
as Ed Lansdale totally hidden behind the short tramp.
http://www.geocities.com/quaneeri3/LastScan58.jpg
http://www.ratical.org///ratville/JFK/USO/appD.html
Like Harrelson, E. Howard Hunt was groomed to take the fall for
something eventually.
Not only did Everett do time for Watergate, it appears he lost his wife as
part of the bargain as well.
If the JFK assassination had gone seriously awry and somebody at CIA
had to go down -- it would have been Howard.
Didn't Nixon pin the JFK assassination on him, essentially?
"Bad for Hunt, bad for the CIA, bad for the country"...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Cliff. The subject of patsies is a really interesting one to me, and one that I think is under researched (aside from Lee Oswald of course). Given that the murder was first planned for Chicago and then Miami, there obviously had to be patsies for those cities. In fact I think I recall reading the Chicago patsy's name recently, maybe here... argh. Don't remember. But given how complex and long-term the Oswald frame was, patsy processing for the various patsy candidates around the country (world?) must have been a huge operation.
And that's just for the JFK murder. Then there were the patsies for RFK, MLK, John Lennon, George Wallace, etc.
It seems like patsies were a mix of CIA employees and non-CIA, MKULTRA and non-MK-ULTRA, for example:
CIA, non-MKULTRA: Oswald
CIA?, MKULTRA: Mark David Chapman
Non-CIA, MKULTRA: Sirhan
Non-CIA, non-MKULTRA: James Earl Ray
Then again I think the FBI took the lead on the MLK and Malcolm X murders so they probably didn't have access to the CIA MKULTRA tool. And the Malcolm X murder had a very different MO; the FBI infiltrated his bodyguards I believe. Tho' some chump did go to prison ultimately.
So you think the right wing patsies were plan B, huh?
More like Plan C.
Plan A -- frame Oswald as an agent of Fidel.
Plan B -- frame Oswald as a Lone Nut
Plan C -- blame the John Birch Society.
When Nixon called Hoover late that afternoon, Nixon asked,
"Was it the right wing nuts?"
Jack Ruby also went on and on about the John Birch Society
in his Warren Comm. interview.
I tend to think Ruby was telling the truth to the Warren Commission Cliff, not that they wanted to hear it.
) on pause to reread Someone Would Have Talked.
Ruby and Dulles shown in crowd before assassination
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Myra Bronstein
So, does anyone think it's actually Ruby and Dulles?
Opinions?