Myra Bronstein

James, Jack, Et Al,

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit?

If so, do you think the Johnson rifle was one of the plan A "murder weapons" that was supposed to be tied to Castro's evil minions?

Thanks.

Myra

Furthermore, it seems as though "gunmen" were conspicuous in DP. For example people saw a gunman in the TSBD 6th floor west window, not the Oswald/patsy window.

Do you think the plotters were openly displaying the multiple (Castro) gunmen in service of plan A?

And, do you think the conspicuous gunmen, intended for DP witnesses to see, were the real shooters? Or were the real shooters less conspicuous?

Myra...what I think does not matter. I do not know who ANY of the shooters were.

Your opinion is as good as mine. They pulled off the perfect crime, because none

of them is identified nearly half a century later. An unsolved mystery.

Jack

... Gosh Jack, did you wander in here by mistake while looking for the "Don't bother to investigate JFK assassination" forum?

Do you think the plotters were openly displaying the multiple (Castro) gunmen in service of plan A?

It would certainly seem like it when you consider that one of the witnesses (can't remember which one off the cuff) said that the man she saw at a 6th floor window before the motorcade arrived was actually holding the rifle outside of the window. If true, what other explanation is there?

Exactly.

Thanks for your opinion Ron.

http://english.ohmynews.com/ArticleView/ar...1&back_url=

"...

Is Wikipedia Harboring a Secret Agent?

According to clues accumulated by ordinary citizens around the world, it could be that the CIA and other intelligence agencies are riding the information wave and planting disinformation on Wikipedia. If so, tens of thousands of innocent and unwitting citizens around the world are translating and propagating their lies, providing these agencies with a universal news network.

..."

James, Jack, Et Al,

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit?

If so, do you think the Johnson rifle was one of the plan A "murder weapons" that was supposed to be tied to Castro's evil minions?

Thanks.

Myra

Furthermore, it seems as though "gunmen" were conspicuous in DP. For example people saw a gunman in the TSBD 6th floor west window, not the Oswald/patsy window.

Do you think the plotters were openly displaying the multiple (Castro) gunmen in service of plan A?

And, do you think the conspicuous gunmen, intended for DP witnesses to see, were the real shooters? Or were the real shooters less conspicuous?

James:

Who is the second patsy...the one who changed the Plan by betraing Oswald? - Gene

Gene,

This is purely my opinion but I submit Loran Hall.

James

James,

that is very interesting and kind of fits with thoughts I'd had about him. Can you elaborate on how Hall might have 'betrayed Oswald'? In your opinion of course.

Thanks

Hi Franc

esca,

Very simply, I think he sensed that something wasn't right and took off, but not before giving up Oswald - something that would have had the DPD in particular focused on the alleged assassin and no one else.

For the DPD to arrive en masse at the theater like they did, I submit they had a very good tip-off that the presidential assassin was there.

I also submit that the whole story of the Johnson rifle that Hall retrieved from hock has yet to be told.

James

Well, the subject of the Johnson rifle is new to me so I found this:

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/guns_dp.html

"The Johnson Semi-Automatic

For some reason the FBI took a very serious interest in a particular Johnson semi-automatic rifle immediately after the assassination. The Johnson semi-automatic rifle, 30.06, is a self-loading shoulder weapon equipped with a rotary feed magazine and has a capacity of eleven shots, ten rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber. It is loaded from standard Springfield-type clips, or single cartridges. The rifle can be fired as slowly or rapidly as the trigger can be pulled. The theoretical cyclic rate of fire of the Johnson semi-automatic is 600 rounds per minute.

The FBI traced a Johnson semi-automatic rifle to CIA-connected, anti-Castro raids in Cuba and to four men: Jerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Richard Hathcock, and Roy Payne. The day after the assassination, an FBI agent questioned private detective Richard Hathcock, who had kept the rifle in his California office. Hathcock was asked whether he knew a man named Roy Payne. Hathcock knew Payne and stated that the FBI wanted to question Payne " ... because Payne's fingerprints undoubtedly were all over that rifle from his having handled it many times." [36] Payne vouched for the accuracy of the weapon and stated that Loran Hall and an unidentified Hispanic man took the weapon from him about a week before the assassination. [37]

In HSCA testimony Hathcock, owner of Allied International Detective Agency, said that Jerry Patrick Hemming and Lorenzo "Skip" Hall visited Hathcock claiming that they were raising money to buy medicines and military hardware for a planned invasion of Cuba. They were broke. From Hathcock they borrowed one hundred dollars and gave Hathcock a set of golf clubs and a Johnson semi-automatic rifle with a 30 power Bushnell variable scope as collateral. Eventually Hall repayed $50, retrieved the rifle and told Hathcock to keep the clubs. Hathcock never saw the rifle again but was asked about it by Jim Garrison, who showed Hathcock an enlarged photo depicting a Dallas detective holding a rifle "which was picked up on Dealey Plaza. The rifle looked to me exactly like the one I'd had in my office. I have combed the Warren Report stem to stern. I find no mention of that rifle, which was picked up on Dealey Plaza." [38] Hathcock claimed that Hall told him he had turned the rifle over to a doctor friend of his in Miami, Florida. Hemming told Hatchcock that Hall's story was false. On November 23, 1963 Hathcock was questioned by FBI agent Jerry Crow about the rifle. Crow wanted to question Hathcock's associate Roy Payne. Hathcock ended hisHSCA statement with "unless that particular rifle had been found or in some way involved in this whole thing, that the FBI would have no interest in it."

Payne's statement was full of details concerning the Johnson rifle. Payne believed the rifle had been involved in numerous Cuban raids. He examined to see if it had been modified, but it had not. He confirmed that it had a 30 power Bushnell scope. He stated that the rifle was extremely accurate. Hall and "a fat, Mexican fellow came in and redeemed the rifle" ten to fifteen days before the assassination. The next day Hall and the Mexican left for Miami. On November 18, 1963 Payne saw Hall again and asked him about the Cuban operations that he and Hemming had planned, but Hall merely said that the CIA had stopped the operation in Miami, and he did not have the time to talk about the matter since he had to make a plane to Dallas. Agent Crow questioned Payne on the 23rd of November. "We discussed the situation about what had occurred and what has gone on with Hemming and Hall ..." Payne told the HSCA. Payne believed the FBI was following him for several months after his conversation with Crow. In the subsequent months after the assassination Payne claimed that the FBI secretly searched his vehicle as well as Hathcock's offices. He talked to Hall about ten to fourteen days after the assassination. Hall told him he was "right in the middle of the lobby of the [Dallas] Hilton, Hotel" during the assassination. Author Dick Russell's interview with Hall told a different story of where Hall was on November 22, " ... I was in Monterey Park, California ... I'd just taken my wife to her job." [39] Payne later read that Hall claimed he was never in Texas. In his last conversation with Hall, Payne was told that Hall had several attempts made against his life, one being a car bomb. Hemming eventually told Payne thathe "didn't like the idea that the rifle went down there, since he felt it was his rifle and the golf clubs that were also hocked." [40]

Jerry Patrick Hemming, according to a Miami Police Intelligence Unit report of November 1, 1963, stated that Hall had stolen two rifles from his apartment the night of October 31, 1963 (a jungle carbine and a Savage .22). He also claimed that Hall was responsible for stealing a third rifle from California --- a Johnson 30.06. [41]

Loran Eugene Hall, an anti-Castro activist Alpha 66 exile group, told author Dick Russell that in 1968 he had been offered $50,000 to assassinate JFK. The meeting occurred on October 17, 1963 when he was seeking funds for guerilla raids into Cuba. He was approached by "right wing radicals who also had RFK and MLK on their kill lists ... they were lunatic fanatical right wingers -- Klansmen and Fascists -- who had the means, the men, and their own twisted reasons for wanting to kill our leaders."

Hall claimed the group included ex-military men. He said he turned down the offer that was presented to him in a wealthy Dallas trucking executive's office. Hall also knew mafia boss Santos Trafficante, whom he shared a jail cell in Havana in 1959. In the spring of 1963, Hall claims he met in Miami Beach with Trafficante and others who were planning an exile raid of Cuba. Hall and Trafficante shared a jail cell in Havana in 1959, a fact he told the House Select Committee. Hall was implicated by the FBI as one of the men who met with Sylvia Odio, the Cuban woman who claimed she saw Oswald in September 1963 with two anti-Cuban activists.

In discussing a plot to kill the president, Hall told author Dick Russell "I'd go so far as to say I probably sat as close as I'm sitting to you now, to some people who had a part in it." FBI Director Hoover told the Warren Commission that Hall admitted to his agents that he was one of the three people that met with Sylvia Odio. FBI Agent James Hosty wrote in his 1996 book, Assignment Oswald, that a fellow security agent Wally Heitman discovered that Loran Hall, Larry Howard, and Willliam Seymour were the visitors at Odio's home. Seymour supposedly looked like Oswald and had a propensity for speaking harshly of Kennedy. Hall claims he never told the FBI that he met Odio. He claims that he was being setup as a "fall guy," another patsy in the rich cast of nefarious characters that surround the case. "I'm sure someone was out to implicate us."

Hemming claimed, in a 1967 interview, he had met Oswald. Hemming stated "I ran into Oswald in Los Angeles in 1959, when he showed up at the Cuban Consulate. The coordinator of the 26th of July Movement [an anti-Castro organization] called me aside and said a Marine officer had showed up ... he told me he was a noncommissioned officer ... a radar operator ... helping the Cubans out with everything he knew. He turned out to be Oswald ... I thought he was a penetrator of pro-Castro forces... I thought he was on the Naval Intelligence payroll at the time.""

James, Jack, Et Al,

Do you believe that multiple guns were planted around Dealey Plaza, each with a contrived provenance to incriminate various patsies, in service of plan A/Castro dunnit?

If so, do you think the Johnson rifle was one of the plan A "murder weapons" that was supposed to be tied to Castro's evil minions?

Thanks.

Myra

I wonder if there's more to this story:

"He left the CIA in 1970 and went into management. Then tragedy struck. His first wife and two children died in a car crash. His father died two months later and Bob Kiley threw himself in to his work."

So, is Tosh dead or alive?

I would think that if a plane crashed in either South America or Afghn with two Americans in it, we would have heard about it by now.

BK

My own view is that it was Tosh who posted his own obituary. I suspect this was triggered by the way members responded to the death of Tim Carroll. I suppose it is most people's fantasy to find out how people respond to news of our death.

I think that's a very plausible theory.

The ultimate covert act.

I would think so too.

I'm upgrading John's theory from plausible to likely.

Is there some way for forum members to see Damore's manuscript and/or get the name of the supposed CIA contract agent who he says did the professional hit?

I have asked my informant if I can name Mary Pinchot Meyer's killer on the Forum. I am awaiting his reply.

Hello -

My name is Peter Janney and I am the person John is referring to. I have actually been researching the life and death of Mary Pinchot Meyer for over thirty (30) years now. I am in the midst of producing a full length Hollywood drama called "Lost Light" which deals with Mary's relationship with JFK and her death. I also writing a book on the same subject ("Mary's Mosaic") which I am hard at work at.

I am going to post a much larger reply than I can at the moment in few days or so, but let me say this as an introduction:

...

Please feel free to post questions and I will try to respond. More later. Thank you.

I am amazed so few members picked up on this posting. I would have thought people would want to ask questions of Peter Janney.

I asked a lot of questions and never got an answer.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...mp;#entry110538

So why bother asking?

While I didn't believe his story about Dealey Plaza, I never got the feeling Tosh was desperate for attention. As a result, I suspect there's more to this story than we may want to believe. Tosh behaved like a gentleman and was an asset to the forum.

As far as the feud with Hemming, both Tosh and Gerry worked at the intersection of spook and smuggler. Both wanted us to believe they were more the former and less the latter. They each sensed that the other's existence cut into their own credibility. Gerry thought Tosh was a fake and Tosh thought Gerry was a low-life. It seems possible Tosh ran into some trouble related to some unofficial activities. Only time will tell.

That is really insightful and interesting Pat.

My own view is that it was Tosh who posted his own obituary. I suspect this was triggered by the way members responded to the death of Tim Carroll. I suppose it is most people's fantasy to find out how people respond to news of our death.

I think that's a very plausible theory.

The ultimate covert act.

Here's an article about the use of mercenaries in Afgan (the one in Southern Asia, not the one in South America ):

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cf...mp;ItemID=13328

"Afghan Rifts; Guns For Hire

by Conn Hallinan

July 19, 2007

The rising tide of Afghan civilian deaths has opened a rift between the U.S. and NATO's 37,000-member International Security Assistance Force (ISAF). According to NATO officials, the U.S.'s increasing use of air power has badly damaged support for the war in both Afghanistan and Europe.

Daan Everts, the senior NATO civilian in Afghanistan, says the U.S. has created 'a fallout that is negative because the collateral damage and particularly the civilian casualties are seen as unduly high, certainly by the Afghan people. This is of concern to us.'

German Defense Minister Franz Joseph Jung said, 'We have to do everything to avoid that civilians are affected. We are in talks with our American friends about this.'

The issue has split German Chancellor Angela Merkel's 'Grand Coalition.' While Merkel's Christian Democrats generally support the war, their coalition partner, the Social Democratic Party (SDP), is suddenly feeling pressure on its portside from the newly formed united Left Party. SDP leaders have come out against renewing the current mandate to deploy German troops in Afghanistan, a vote that will come sometime this fall.

The rising tide of Afghan civilian deaths-over 1,800 killed in 2007-has helped fuel a push for United Nations participation to end the conflict. Leading the drive is British Secretary of Defense, Des Browne.

In a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations, Browne said the solutions to narcotics, security, and establishing the rule of law are political, not military. 'An overarching campaign plan is required to develop all of these disparate strands together. It has to be a strategic plan, not just a military plan...and there is no organization better placed than the UN to take that role.'

Browne said that if the international community cannot find a political solution, 'then I say to you that we have no moral right to ask our young people to expose themselves to that danger.'

In the meantime, in spite of opposition by the Kabul government, senior U.S. military officers and European nations, the Bush Administration is forging ahead with a plan to use massive aerial spraying of the herbicide glycophate to destroy Afghanistan's opium crop.

More than 90 percent of the world's opium comes from Afghanistan, and the drug trade generates about one third of the country's gross domestic product. Projections are that this year the crop will be larger than in 2006 The Germans are so opposed to the spraying that they say they will reconsider their participation in the NATO operation if it goes forward. Many military leaders are unhappy as well. Gen. Dan K. McNeil, NATO's commander in Afghanistan, says his forces are not equipped or trained to deal with drugs. 'Eradication done improperly is counter-intuitive to running the counter-insurgency because it will alienate people and you may have more insurgent people appearing than you had before.' Many Afghans agree. According to Mirwais Yasini, a member of the Afghani parliament's Committee on Counter-Narcotics, 'Aerial eradication will maximize the antagonism against the government.'

DynCorp, a private mercenary company that has done extensive spraying of coca plants in Columbia, has been contracted to do the job. Using DynCorp is hardly a coincidence. The new U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, William Wood, oversaw the company's aerial spraying campaign in Colombia

'The U.S. is hell-bent on eradication,' Harvard University Professor Robert Rotberg, an expert on conflict resolution at the Kennedy School of Government, told the Financial Times. 'They claim it worked in Columbia and so it will work in Afghanistan. It is not clear to anyone it worked in Columbia.'

Actually, it is quite clear. Coca acreage in Columbia increased 9 percent in 2006, following a 26 percent increase in 2005. Coca acreage is the same today as it was when the spraying campaign began in 2001.

Have gun, will travel?

Widespread use of mercenaries in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Latin America by the Bush Administration has drawn the attention of the United Nations Working Group on the Use of Mercenaries, according to upsidedownworld.com.

'We have observed that in some cases the employees of private military and security companies enjoy an immunity which can easily become impunity,' says Jose Luis Gomez del Pardo, chair of the UN Working Group, 'implying that some states may contract these companies in order to avoid direct legal responsibilities.'

The Working Group found that mercenaries were recruited from throughout Latin America and then flown to Ecuador to train at the huge U.S. base at Manta. Others were trained in Honduras at a former training camp used during the Reagan Administration's war against the Sandinistas in Nicaragua.

According to the Working Group, mercenaries working for a subsidiary of an Illinois-based company, Your Solutions Inc., suffered 'irregularities in contracts, harsh working conditions, wages partially paid or unpaid, ill-treatment and isolation and lack of basic necessities such as medical treatment and sanitation.' A major reason for using private security companies is that they are not subject to Congressional oversight."...

Dupe.

Peter,

Also accept my condolences for the loss of your beloved K9.

I have inherited two dogs from my late brother - Jake, a boarder collie and Binky, a white terrior like Nipper the RCA "master's voice" dog.

Brad Ayers has a few dogs holed up with him too.

In the meantime, I sent off an email to Anne Tyrrell, [ aTyrrell@blackwaterusa.com ] the Blackwater spokesperson who has previously responded to the deaths of Blackwater employees in Iraq.

She has yet to respond to my inquiry re: TP and who is Tom Walker?

Just the other day John Judge sent me an email re: Blackwater and I hears a NPR interview with the author of a new and very interesting book about Blackwater, that I've yet to read.

BK

Then of course there's this famous incident about the Fallujah mercenaries.

http://www.local6.com/problemsolvers/13674121/detail.html

"Fla. Mom Fights For Answers In Son's Ambush Death In Iraq

POSTED: 11:38 pm EDT July 12, 2007

UPDATED: 11:57 pm EDT July 13, 2007

A Lake County woman who is fighting to reveal why her son was killed in Iraq while working for a private security company said she is being blocked by a $10 million lawsuit and threats of a gag order.

Ex-Navy SEAL Scott Helvenston, who was born in Lake County, was one of four American civilian contractors ambushed, shot, burned and then hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

Helvenston's mother, Katy, said images of the event are seared in her memory.

"The horror of all this was just overwhelming," Katy Helvenston said. "I probably didn't get out of bed for six months. I just cried."

In 2004, Scott Helvenston was broke and decided to work for Blackwater USA, a North Carolina-based private security firm.

Blackwater is a company hired by the United States to provide security to diplomats in war zones.

Scott Helvenston was to make $600 a day.

However, instead of being a bodyguard, he was sent on his first mission in Iraq to guard kitchen supplies being hauled across the war-torn country.

"It's a mission that ended in his horrendous death," Local 6's Donald Forbes said.

After Scott Helvenston and three other men were killed, their families went looking for answers but they said they were stonewalled.

"We were literally told by Blackwater that if we wanted that information we would have to sue them, so we did," Katy Helvenston said. "We sued them and the irony is if they would have answered those few questions, none of this would have happened. We just wanted some answers."..."

Peter,

Also accept my condolences for the loss of your beloved K9.

I have inherited two dogs from my late brother - Jake, a boarder collie and Binky, a white terrior like Nipper the RCA "master's voice" dog.

Brad Ayers has a few dogs holed up with him too.

In the meantime, I sent off an email to Anne Tyrrell, [ aTyrrell@blackwaterusa.com ] the Blackwater spokesperson who has previously responded to the deaths of Blackwater employees in Iraq.

She has yet to respond to my inquiry re: TP and who is Tom Walker?

Just the other day John Judge sent me an email re: Blackwater and I hears a NPR interview with the author of a new and very interesting book about Blackwater, that I've yet to read.

BK

This book?

http://www.blackwaterbook.com/

My own view is that it was Tosh who posted his own obituary. I suspect this was triggered by the way members responded to the death of Tim Carroll. I suppose it is most people's fantasy to find out how people respond to news of our death.

Yes, everyone would like to hear the eulogies at their funeral. I'm not challenging your view above John, and keep it open as a possibility, but can't imagine what [if that were so] Tosh could have in mind for being able anytime in the future to invent for his return......crash and journey out through the desert, mountains or jungle on foot against all odds?.....

Tosh, if you did this...you've gotten yourself in a very strange situation, indeed, and can only suggest that the sooner it is ended [if it is indeed not true] the easier it will be to be forgotten and less damaging in the end. Your friend -even though you didn't send me any message about the love of my life, my dog Crazybear's death.

Ohmygod, Crazybear died?

Peter I'm SO sorry...

That is just the worst.

Thanks. Yes, most sadly true. She lost her long battle with cancer and I lost my only signigicant other, companion and research partner. I'm been more than depressed and destroyed by it.

When did she die Peter?

Witnesses describe the battle in Parkland Hospital between the Texas authorities, who wanted to do an autopsy, and the Secret Service, who wanted to remove the body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qONLQGyn6E

Good segment Gil.

Though I happen to believe that the President's body was in the casket at Parkland, then was removed during the swearing in ceremony on air force one (David Lifton's scenario).

My own view is that it was Tosh who posted his own obituary. I suspect this was triggered by the way members responded to the death of Tim Carroll. I suppose it is most people's fantasy to find out how people respond to news of our death.

Yes, everyone would like to hear the eulogies at their funeral. I'm not challenging your view above John, and keep it open as a possibility, but can't imagine what [if that were so] Tosh could have in mind for being able anytime in the future to invent for his return......crash and journey out through the desert, mountains or jungle on foot against all odds?.....

Tosh, if you did this...you've gotten yourself in a very strange situation, indeed, and can only suggest that the sooner it is ended [if it is indeed not true] the easier it will be to be forgotten and less damaging in the end. Your friend -even though you didn't send me any message about the love of my life, my dog Crazybear's death.

Ohmygod, Crazybear died?

Peter I'm SO sorry...

That is just the worst.

Have you seen this:

Thanks John.

This is an excerpt; the full appearance is here:

http://www.fora.tv/searchresults.php?keywo...lbot&page=1

(Just search on "David Talbot" to find it.)

Message from Gary Mack:

I did a search for the address of the "sender" of the information that Tosh had been killed. Take a look at the result:

http://www.cwalsh.org/BreachInfo/primary_s...le-20060709.PDF

Looks like a hacker may be sending bogus emails….

Even if someone stole T-Mobile data, it begs the question as to why they'd become so interested in the matter at hand to follow the Forum enough to make a spoof post. I'm more inclined to think if it is not reality, the poster was not a random hacker, but someone who wanted to make it appear as if Tosh was no more for 'operational' reasons - rather than a prank. Again, this is only my educated hunch at this point.

A once very highly placed DEA person and friend of Tosh and myself could turn up no 'DEA-Houston' knowledge of this. Someone else is behind the scenes checking out other portions of the story. The only partially confirmatory back-chatter thus far is that Tosh has not answered an electronic answering service he is usually quick to respond to and there is no longer a message on it. More info when I get it.

Thanks Peter, John, Gary for looking into this.

Sounds like some good progress so far.

I received this today from Cris, Tim's loving and devoted wife.

Dawn

Friends of Tim:

My deepest appreciation for your kind and comforting words on hearing of Tim's death.

He was a man of many passions and a honed intellect with a touch of alchemy. Light and water were emblematic and important to him. I know that he would want you to continue your research and continue to raise your voices and shine a light on the great unanswered mystery of our lifetime. The assassination of JFK was a seminal moment in our childhood, a world-changing event, a touchstone for many from different walks of life, and a particular passion of Tim's. Your work on the forum stimulated a part of him that was important and that I, not being as well versed in the subject, could adequately address. He was an insatiable intellectual questioner and I know he would hope that your work continues so that we never forget or fail to inspire the next generation to carry on with questioning and challenging the status quo, seeking answers for the important questions, being involved in our communities, and cherishing life and your loved ones now.

I intend to print some of your tributes and his writings on the subject to display as part of the public memorial since this passion was very important to him and must be represented. By posting on the forum, you have made my task easier.

My best regards and sincere thanks.

Cris

Wow, Tim sure has one very special wife.

Tosh is 70 this year.....

His daughter's name is Leslie, and she posted about her Dad's day in Dallas at times..

Tosh was on and then left and she did shortly after...Tosh had been on the F at least a

couple of times....previously.I believe.

Leslie did not post a great deal if I recall correctly...she had been on before

when her son was very ill, she left, the boy died..She then came back again,

after time had passed...along with Tosh...

The other womans name was Laura...she was trying to prove that her father

was possibley there in Dallas with the FBI, in the recreation photos...I have no idea if

her site is still on the web.

Here is the article on Tosh from last year.......six pages I do believe.

Cocaine Airways

A former CIA pilot says secret flights to El Toro could explain a Marine officer’s ‘suicide’

By NICK SCHOU

Thursday, September 14, 2006 - 3:00 pm

http://www.ocweekly.com/news/news/cocaine-airways/25835/

B......

Thanks for posting the excellent article Bernice.

It's especially interesting because Tosh describes episodes where pilots were duped into flying drugs into the US while returning from gun running missions. I find that very believable, and am open to the possibility that they were similarly duped in Dallas. What's offputing is that pursuing this possibility in queries to Tosh make him defensive and uncooperative. That doesn't seem like the behavior of a crusading truth seeker.

Peter wrote:

"They both call the other 'total liars', in substance. They knew overlapping persons and operatated on a few overlapping missions and programs. More than that, it is a mystery, but I think it is definitely more than just a personality clash, per se."

Peter I think your first sentence is very true. I believe GPH would vigorously deny that he and Plumlee were on "overlapping missions"!

Like John Simkin I doubt what Plumlee said re his flight to Dallas.

I'm with John and Tim in finding the story of the Dallas flight incredible.

And since it was my first impression of him and his attempts to explain dubious aspects of the Dallas saga only made it more incredible, it pretty much undermined his veracity for me. I have a hard time selectively believing somebody, i.e., accepting parts of what they say but not other parts.

I also have a hard time believing his belated claim that someone else deleted his past forum posts to make him look bad.

I'm curious about the supposed clash with Hemming, wondering if there would be some reason why they would indulge in a little theater there.

Too complex to go into now all I know or think I know about the flight Tosh talks about. What I'd say and how I'd say it would be somewhat tempered by if he has died or not. I don't believe all parts myself and that was a huge area of friction between Tosh and I. Other parts of his story I'm inclined to believe. As to why someone would tell partial truths...I've almost never met an intelligence person

who didn't for a variety of reasons!...

But when other people lie it usually doesn't involve the death of a great president.

I think that's a rather significant distinction.

I'm still interested to know what Tosh's daughter was posting about. Whenever I found Tosh a bit hesitant on a subject or doing a 'no comment' I always found the best results came from appealing along the lines of 'don't you want you children to grow up in a country where the truth of this is known?!' He was devoted to his daughter and his mother also.

As I recall, his daughter posted at Lancer for a while in defense of Tosh when he was being harassed by the same guy (I can't remember his name) who was suing Wim Dankbaar or vice versa over Holt or Tosh interviews or whatever. It was all really pleasant. I recall she was also helpful in providing crops from the Cancellare photo purportedly showing Tosh and Sergio (I still don't see a trace of anyone there) and an aerial view of the plaza showing where Tosh was supposed to be. Then as I recall she and Tosh had Debra delete all of their postings.

Oh, so he saw to it that all his posts were deleted at Lancer then claimed that someone else deleted his posts here to discredit him.

Yikes...I gotta explain myself a little better.

Tosh's daughter seemingly joined the forums in an attempt to try and take up for her father, who she seems to adore. However, she came in with a grudge and never did seem to get over it. Then finally, Tosh intervened and told her to get the h--- away from the forums or he would never speak to her again. I doubt if he was serious though.

When I mentioned a woman acting strange and had strange things to say about her father, I was not speking of Tosh's daughter. This was nother woman that Kathy mentioned. The best way to explain her, is to say that she seemed to have mental problems. She had her father mixed up in the JFK Assn. as well as a part of the investigation. Yet she seemed to add more and more to her imaginations. But it is just not pertinent to what we are actualy discussing here. Before she left the forunm for a time, she was a normal and intelligent member. When she came back, she was so strange!

As for Karyn Holt Harcourt....Chauncey's daugheter..she, like Tosh's daugher adored her father. She told me what a wonderful father he was. His wife Mary, who has since passed on, says he was also a wonderful husband. Karyn is a very friendly, out-going type pwrson. We did discuss Chauncey's claims and he did make some Video's for her, just days before he died. I told her that I wanted to believe him, but I just wasn't able to see that one tramp looked like him all that much....and I wasn't going to pretend that I did unless I actually could see the resemblance. She told me she understood that!

___________

Dixie

Thanks for the clarification Dixie.

Peter wrote:

"They both call the other 'total liars', in substance. They knew overlapping persons and operatated on a few overlapping missions and programs. More than that, it is a mystery, but I think it is definitely more than just a personality clash, per se."

Peter I think your first sentence is very true. I believe GPH would vigorously deny that he and Plumlee were on "overlapping missions"!

Like John Simkin I doubt what Plumlee said re his flight to Dallas.

I'm with John and Tim in finding the story of the Dallas flight incredible.

And since it was my first impression of him and his attempts to explain dubious aspects of the Dallas saga only made it more incredible, it pretty much undermined his veracity for me. I have a hard time selectively believing somebody, i.e., accepting parts of what they say but not other parts.

I also have a hard time believing his belated claim that someone else deleted his past forum posts to make him look bad.

I'm curious about the supposed clash with Hemming, wondering if there would be some reason why they would indulge in a little theater there.