Myra Bronstein
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Posts posted by Myra Bronstein
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Rush Harp paid for this billboard outside New York I think it was. Harp was still a young man when he died in 1983.
BTW, if anyone is wondering MJK is Mary Joe Kopechne.
FWIW.
James
Duly noted James.
We're taking on the Big Bad.
Do you have any details on his mysterious death?
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I just received this copy of a letter Mr. Kuntzler wrote to the Washington Post. I'm not sure if its the same thing as the ad he put in the NYT, but assume so, since that what I had requested and what he indicated he would have sent to me.
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Thank you SO much for posting this Phil.
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Well we know that Ted Kennedy killed Kopechne but I just don't see him as a suspect in the murders of his brothers.
No, we do not know that. In my opinion the same group who killed JFK, RFK and MLK also murdered Kopechne. Although Ted Kennedy was allowed to live, his presidential ambitions were dead.
Tim, are you unaware of the mysterious 1964 plane crash that killed two and almost killed Ted Kennedy, or did you forget?
http://cgi.ebay.com/June-20-1964-Ted-Kenne...9QQcmdZViewItem
Apparently even the Big Bad isn't brazen enough to try to kill the same man twice in a few years after killing his two brothers.
They opted to neutralize him by framing him.
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I suspect it would be impossible to agree what the advert would say unless it was written by one person. For example, I would have nothing to do with an ad that suggested that Castro or the KGB had anything to do with the assassination.
My suggestion would be to hold a conference where a series of lectures are given by the leading experts on the assassination. In this way, all the latest evidence that we have on the case would be presented. We could use all the media contacts we have to publicize the event. For example, the Spartacus home page receives 50,000 visitors a day. Hopefully, we would get some publicity for this event. We could also film the conference and supply media outlets with a copy of the DVD. We could then advertise the DVD in the national press. We could also make it available to Amazon where we could also supply the reviews of the DVD. I could also sell it via my website and I am sure that others who run websites would also join this venture. Extracts of the documentary could be placed on YouTube.
The idea of placing an advert in the New York Times or the Washington Post is very old fashioned. We now live in a world of the web, YouTube and DVDs. Let us use these new methods as part of a campaign to force the US government to reopen the case.
Very good points.
It would be very difficult to agree on a message and wording.
That's a fact.
My concern about selling something is that we could end up being dismissed as people out to make a buck.
Furthermore, this method--while more contemporary than a newspaper ad--requires that the audience take action to get the information we're so eager for them to have. They'd either have to attend a conference or buy a DVD.
Let's assume our target audience doesn't care at this point about the JFK assassination and considers it ancient history.
What would motivate them to attend the conference or buy the DVD?
What about a combination of an ad and a seminar and posting it on YouTube?
In other words, all of the above?
Though, again, I feel we must avoid the perception that we're we are out to make a buck off President Kennedy's murder.
Whatever we end up doing we should utilize YouTube to the max.
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Let's try to put "Our Ad" idea in this thread.
What do people think of the accoustical evidence? Has it become too controversial to include in an ad?
See:
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/...iew_and_History
I think one could do a condensed version of the accoustical evidence with references to the work by Don Thomas. In fact, Mr. Thomas should probably wrote this section of the ad.
By the way, if I have anything to do with the ad, it will not include a claim that any car manufacturing company (whether Ford, GM or Chrysler) was a part of the conspiracy! On a more serious note, I think the ad should not attempt to identify the major conspirators due to the controversy over just who fits in that category.
I think the ad should be all about Ford...
Ok, for real, I think the ad should start with the conclusion that the gov't killed President Kennedy in 1963, and that we the people are entitled to the truth. I don't see this as the place to make the case with a list of evidence. But we can point people to some of the more compelling evidence, for example selected videos on YouTube (maybe Gil would help with this) in a group created for this purpose. Let's point to evidence elsewhere (maybe even recommend the best books), then use the very expensive ad space as follows:
We say why this murder matters today (as Nathaniel mentioned).
We are on a downward continuum that began November 22, 1963.
We tell some truths about JFK and what he really stood for and why his progressive policies led to his murder.
I think it's critical that we show them the real JFK versus the demonized version the CIA depicts; people will care about the real JFK. Point them to his American University speech for example.
We state our goals:
Point out that we are entitled to see all documents from the JFK Records Act. We want all documents being held until 2013 unsealed. We want a genuine investigation into the murder itself and the two cover-ups (Warren Investigation & HSCA).
We tell people what they can do to insure we achieve our goals.
Just brainstorming.
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I also think there has to be a clear, crisp paragraph of how this matters FOR THE WORLD OF TODAY. We have to rescue the case from the category of trivial pursuit, where it has been relagated by the Corporate Medcia. I think the line of continutity here involved increased centralized power, increaing lack of checks and balances, and a complete absence of sunshine-- rumored to be the best disinfectant.
Yes, why this matters, for example, is that--as evidenced in the 2000 election--the American people have no say in the running of the government. That's a direct result of the 1963 coup.
Very important to show that 1963 coup=2007 fascism.
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Ok, NY Times rates are in a PDF file here:
http://www.nytadvertising.com/was/files/ot...lClassified.pdf
But since they charge per column it's hard to get a real idea of the cost of a full or, more realistically, half page ad from it.
A rough estimate of the price is here:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=449751
Which says in part:
"The column inch rate for weekday full-page display in the city edition was recently $191 (full-page rate discount included) per column inch so a full page would probably cost about $24,000 or about 2 cents per print copy circulated. This is the rate for a full-page, camera-ready black and white page."
I think the NY Times is doable and USA Today is not so much doable.
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The New York Times rates are available, I believe, on-line.
I agree a lot of content can go into a half-page ad.
USA Today has of course a greater circulation than the Times.
I think you should worry less about the price and more about what to write that will REALLY have an effect. There are a few well-heeled JFK people who might be willing to help out if they saw a product and project they could get behind - or the money could be raised in progressive circles, again if something good were at hand. One might also first publish it in cheaper papers / magazines or on line and solicit money for a print run in NYT and other such in those. If a well-written piece of a page had references [both to books and websites] and concrete suggestions on what a person could do to move the case along or call for it to be REALLY investigated, it might have some effect. Nov 22 is not so far away and if it is to be done, someone should start 'a writin and the production of two or three versions [only differing in size/detail] might be in order....depending on what kind of money one comes up with in the end.
Well that's kinda what I was trying to say in the other thread that people won't post in:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10618
Still, we need to know the cost up front to know if it's feasible.
I'm not as confident about the prospect of raising money as you seem to be Peter.
$10,000 maybe. $80,000, no.
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Everybody liked my idea about running a full page ad in USA Today on Thursday, November 22nd to demonstrate the reasons a conspiracy existed. I think it would be a great contribution to the memory of JFK and to reinstate the sense of outrage over the assassination and perhaps initiate a new investigate.
I think it would be great to run such an ad on each anniversary of the assassination.
But here's the problem:
I WAY under-estimated the price of such an ad. A full page black & white ad would cost $106,400!! (See below copied from USA Today published rates.)
2007 National Circulation Rates
Rate card open rate
Monday - Thursday Friday
Ad Size B&W Color B&W Color
Spread $213,200 $337,300 $259,900 $411,500
Half Spread $138,200 $219,300 $168,800 $267,900
Full Page $106,400 $168,600 $129,900 $205,600
Junior Page $88,200 $139,900 $107,500 $170,900
2/3 Page $85,000 $135,000 $103,700 $164,700
1/2 Page $69,100 $109,700 $84,400
I doubt we can put together $106,400 to run such an ad. Anyone think we can?
Thank you for investigating the USA Today price Tim.
I'd like to look into the prices for a half page ad in the NY Times.
Then I'll be able to give an opinion.
(No, I don't think the USA Today prices are doable.)
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Mike, do you recall if the book gives any insight into Colby's bizarre death in a "boating accident" near his home? His body was found underwater 20 yards from the canoe after the area was thoroughly searched multiple times, without the life jacket his friends say he usually wore.
This was in 1996 though, long after his testimony to the Church commission.
Myra, he did not mention Colby's death. Mackenzie seemed to choose (wisely, I think) to write rather narrowly about the CIA's efforts to guard their secrets regarding domestic spying from the Congress, the press, and by default the American public.
I sometimes wished he had engaged in a little more speculation, but in the end perhaps his book was more effective doing it the way he did.
Thanks Mike.
It sounds like a good book for the infinite reading queue.
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This is great stuff you're posting Cliff. Really informative. Though as an impartial observer, which I am in this discussion, it doesn't meet the burden of proof. I don't see why Oswald's capture was inherantly automatically a show-stopper if the plotters really wanted to attack Cuba.
It simply wasn't possible to effectively frame the patsy while he was
"emphatically" proclaiming his innocence.
For instance, Hoover had some ginned up "evidence" that Oswald had
been in Cuba. That couldn't be brought out once it could be rebutted.
The foundation of the plot was the frame job, the sheep-dipping of Oswald
as an agent of Fidel, which required the silence of the patsy.
When a strip club owner gunned him down on live TV, the Mob became
immediately suspect, not Castro.
Now if Harriman and LBJ didn't want to attack Cuba anyway and used this as an excuse that could be a factor. But what compelling case would they bring forth to squelch a planned invasion just because the patsy was scooped up by a right-wing CIA-friendly police force in the heart of "nut country"?According to the Operation Northwoods documents, in order to establish
a successful pre-text for an invasion of Cuba there had to be "irrevocable
proof" of Communist complicity.
Oswald in custody was highly "revocable" as an agent of Castro.
The parallel with the Northwoods plot, which JFK himself rejected, is compelling.
Did JFK get Northwooded?
Did they go for him instead of John Glenn?
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My wife has one. If we still dont have one I could ask her to picture one later toninight, but wont that be impossible to read? ...
Not if you also type out the text for us.
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OR... if you prefer, you could photograph it in readible sections.
Maybe take one overall master shot so we can see the whole thing, then take a few snapshots of sections so we can read the text.
Unless you'd rather type it out for us.
I mean, how long could it be?
...If it's no bother of course...
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...Because of MHCHAOS and Watergate, Congress began to investigate the CIA. On September 16, 1975 Senators Frank Church and John Tower called Colby to testify at a hearing about CIA assassinations. Colby showed up carrying a CIA poison dart gun, and Church waved the gun before the televison cameras. It looked like an automatic pistol with a telescopic sight mounted on the barrel. Producers of the evening news recognized this as sensational footage, and just as surely Colby recognized his days as director were numbered. He had not guarded the CIA secrets well enough.Colby was fired on November 2, 1975. His successor was George Herbert Walker Bush........Mike, do you recall if the book gives any insight into Colby's bizarre death in a "boating accident" near his home? His body was found underwater20 yards from the canoe after the area was thoroughly searched multiple times, without the life jacket his friends say he usually wore.This was in 1996 though, long after his testimony to the Church commission.
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Will do, Charles, will do...
As to the Harriman-Johnson meeting, which occurred minutes after LBJ's arrival at
the White House the evening of 11/22/63, isn't it amazing that "the U.S. government's
top Kremlinologists" cracked the case in a matter of hours, at least to the extent
they could categorically exclude Soviet involvement?
That's BS, of course. It was Harriman's way of ordering LBJ to back off the
"Commie conspiracy" angle.
I don't have to disagree with this assessment to maintain my "no invasion intended" argument. The faction that includes Harriman and that you and Salandria reference was virtually at the top of the conspiracy. LBJ was not.
Salandria's speculation regarding Bonesman Bundy in the Situation Room is
consistent with Bonesman Harriman at the WH making his case for non-Communist
involvement.
With whom did Johnson first speak when he got to the White House?
Bundy, ten minutes before Harriman showed up.
With whom did Johnson meet first thing the following morning?
Bundy.
So far, no contradiction to my position.
The die was cast when Oswald was captured alive: the dream of a US
invasion of Cuba in retaliation was as dead as Kennedy himself.
HOLD IT! There is an unbridgeable chasm between your presentation of the Bonesmen business and the "conclusion" that LHO alive blew the invasion operation. Non sequitur, I'm afraid.
Bamford's Body Of Secrets, pg 84:
(quote on)
On February 20, 1962, [John] Glenn was to lift off from Cape Canaveral, Florida,
on his historic journey. The flight was to carry the banner of America's virtues of
truth, freedom, and democracy into orbit high over the planet. But [Chairman of
the JCS] Lemnitzer and his Chiefs had a different idea. They proposed to [Operation
Mongoose chief] Lansdale that, should the rocket explode and kill Glenn, "the objective
is to provide irrevocable proof that...the fault lies with the Communists et al Cuba [sic]."
This would be accomplished, Lemnitzer continued, "by manufacturing various pieces of
evidence which would prove electronic interference on the part of the Cubans." Thus,
as NASA prepared to send the first American into space, the Joint Chiefs of Staff were
preparing to use John Glenn's possible death as a pre-text to launch a war.
(quote off)
Same line of thinking went into the JFK assassination, which was plotted by
the some of the same people (Lansdale), imo.
"The objective is to provide irrevocable proof that...the fault lies
with the Communists et al Cuba."
The capture of Oswald deprived the plotters of their ultimate objective, the
"irrevocable proof" standard which would have allowed them to make the
case for Castro complicity.
The powers-that-be pulled the plug on the Cuba-invasion plans not so much out
of fear of World War III, but out of the conviction that they couldn't make the
case against Castro stick.
HOLD IT! You are seriously arguing that two days worth of unrecorded LHO protestations of innocence would be enough to cancel out all the other false evidence? This doesn't pass the laugh test.
Tell me: What could LHO have said or done that couldn't be either explained later as the bleatings and posturings of a guilty man trying unto death to protect his evil Cuban masters or permanently dispatched to the memory hole?
I'll give you the answer: NOTHING!
The plotters continued to try to make that case, to no avail.
As I noted in my previous post, I don't think this was a case of
"cooler heads" so much as "cold feet" on the part of Harriman.
Charles Drago
This is great stuff you're posting Cliff. Really informative. Though as an impartial observer, which I am in this discussion, it doesn't meet the burden of proof. I don't see why Oswald's capture was inherantly automatically a show-stopper if the plotters really wanted to attack Cuba.
Now if Harriman and LBJ didn't want to attack Cuba anyway and used this as an excuse that could be a factor. But what compelling case would they bring forth to squelch a planned invasion just because the patsy was scooped up by a right-wing CIA-friendly police force in the heart of "nut country"?
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I have the ad, but don't own a scanner, just in case anyone thinks I'm acting in an undemocratic manner.
Do you have a digital camera?
Yes really.
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Copied from the old thread.
...We ought to be able to complete an advertisement demonstrating (conservatively) why a conspiracy existed that can fit on a single page and run it in the US Today on November 22.
I'd like to see our members e.g. Michael Griffith, Larry Hancock and Pat Speer assist in writing the piece.
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Now THAT is a freakin' brilliant idea.
I second the nomination of Larry Hancock.
How many thousands of dollars do we need?
(I'm sure we can't afford as much space as Kuntzler.)
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I third the motion. I would be willing to put up some some of my misbegotten funds towards such an ad. I think it should have concrete recomendations on how people new to the issue can learn more. That would be time and money well spent! Also, if there was a reference to the forum, memebership would quadruple by teatime.
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We ought to be able to complete an advertisement demonstrating (conservatively) why a conspiracy existed that can fit on a single page and run it in the US Today on November 22.
I'd like to see our members e.g. Michael Griffith, Larry Hancock and Pat Speer assist in writing the piece.
...
Now THAT is a freakin' brilliant idea.
I second the nomination of Larry Hancock.
How many thousands of dollars do we need?
(I'm sure we can't afford as much space as Kuntzler.)
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I third the motion. I would be willing to put up some some of my misbegotten funds towards such an ad. I think it should have concrete recomendations on how people new to the issue can learn more. That would be time and money well spent! Also, if there was a reference to the forum, memebership would quadruple by teatime.
Discussion continued here:
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We ought to be able to complete an advertisement demonstrating (conservatively) why a conspiracy existed that can fit on a single page and run it in the US Today on November 22.
I'd like to see our members e.g. Michael Griffith, Larry Hancock and Pat Speer assist in writing the piece.
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Now THAT is a freakin' brilliant idea.
I second the nomination of Larry Hancock.
How many thousands of dollars do we need?
(I'm sure we can't afford as much space as Kuntzler.)
Ok, so just brainstorming this... We need:
-To decide which newspaper we want to target and research prices.
-The copywriter; Larry is ideal (contingent on his agreement
).-A treasurer or treasurers to collect and save the money and make sure this project is not somehow sabotaged.
A lot of thought needs to go into that...
-A coordinator.
-Legal input (Dawn?).
-A way to insure that if one person on the team flakes out the project goes forward without losing much time or work.
-A way to deal with the inevitable agitators and infiltrators.
-Stated goals, for example--insistence that all papers from the JFK act be released, that the murder FINALLY receive a proper investigation, that the documents that are sealed until 2013 or whatever be released, etc...
-A call to action--something we want the audience to do to move us towards our goals.
BK is very strategic and practical and could (if willing) help us come up with goals and calls to action.
-Ideally do this as a coalition of forums Education/John, Lancer/Debra, Research/Rich, etc.
-Then we might need a group name.
We should do this.
We really should do this.
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John, the number given in the ad is 202- 484-0330 I will try calling later. No reason why many people can't call.
Nathaniel, I hope I didn't spoil your plan to call, but I went ahead and called the number referenced and was fortunate enough to get right through to Mr. Kuntzler. He said he has been deluged with calls (a stack of 26 call backs on his desk) and had just finished an interview with Jay Severn (Boston) and is scheduled to do a few more TV interviews soon.
I invited him to join the forum and gave him the info to find the website and he agreed to contact John, however he was short on time....it was about 4:10 and he said he had to call in to another radio show at 4:30 for another interview.
He said he only has a hardcopy of the ad, but he is to have his publicist send me a copy via email, which I will post as soon as I receive it.
Incidentally, he said that the NYT made a mistake (possibly deliberately in his favor) and included the ad in the national edition of the paper, including Canada when he had only paid to have it in the DC area edition.
Phil! You are DA MAN!
Thank you for everything you did.
So his ad got a ton of attention, eh?
Good good...
I'm likin' Tim's idea more and more.
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Of course it would be easier to discuss the merits of the ad if one of the MANY people who read it and are posting about it would be so kind as to scan it and post it here.
HINT.
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We ought to be able to complete an advertisement demonstrating (conservatively) why a conspiracy existed that can fit on a single page and run it in the US Today on November 22.
I'd like to see our members e.g. Michael Griffith, Larry Hancock and Pat Speer assist in writing the piece.
...
Now THAT is a freakin' brilliant idea.
I second the nomination of Larry Hancock.
How many thousands of dollars do we need?
(I'm sure we can't afford as much space as Kuntzler.)
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Unfortunately I think the ad may hurt rather than help the conspiracy position in part because he throws so many people into the conspiracy.
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So many people threw themselves into the conspiracy.
Kuntzler is just talkin' facts.
...Such as: J. Edgar Hoover because JFK was going to replace him. Sorry, J. Edgar had the "goods" on JFK; he was untouchable. And Hoover was mad as heck that his FBI was being blamed for allowing LHO to "slip through the cracks". No way J. Edgar was part of the conspiracy.
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The FBI/Hoover was the cornerstone of the cover-up. They produced a "report" within days that was merely rubber-stamped by the Warren Commission. Hoover was rewarded when LBJ made him Director for Life. I'm kinda thinking Hoover would never have had that kind of job security under JFK, blackmail or no blackmail. Besides, there was plenty of blackmail to use against Hoover (the mob supposedly had photos of him with Clyde), so the reciprocal blackmail could have canceled it all out.
He also says the Ford Motor Company was part of the conspiracy!If you read the article, or even my summary, you'll see that he was referring to the FACT that Ford obliged in destroying evidence of bullet holes in the presidential limo.
AsI said, I think the Kutzler ad hurts rather than helps due to its extremism.I see nothing extreme in stating facts.
It was a complex plot with many plotters and accomplices.
Kuntzler is merely the messenger, and we need messengers who can get past the media censors.
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...In some way the Tippit killing is a 'skeleton key' to the original plot and its failure and your conjecture on this is very interesting.
Of course that raises the question: was the Tippit killing part of the original plot or the amended plot?
But I probably shouldn't muddy the water. We've already got our hands and brains full debating the critical question of whether or not invading Cuba was part of plan A.
The Tippit question is one of the most puzzling and perplexing areas of study. There's a good thread on it right now at Lancer. It seems like everyone has their own pet theory about Tippit, and unfortunately too many of them make sense. I'm all over the place on Tippit.
Poor dumb cop...
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I really appreciate the quality and quantity of discussion on this.
The overarching question is whether or not an invasion of Cuba was part of the original plot. I don't even know enough to have an opinion yet. But I'm unconvinced that the capture of Oswald would make it necessary to cancel existing plans to invade Cuba.
Granted it was a big snafu, but they could have played the Ruby card with the narrative propaganda that this wholesome apple-pie eating flag-waving American Mr. Ruby was so outraged at the actions of the Castro-coddling commie scum Oswald that he snapped and took the law into his own hands bla bla bla. The plotters and their mockingbird allies could then fan the commie-hating flames and proceed to manipulate the public and congress into a justifiable righteous retaliatory invasion.
Again, I'm unconvinced that the capture of Oswald would make it necessary to cancel existing plans to invade Cuba. The plotters were determined, ruthless, and powerful. Why would they so quickly abandon one of two objectives?
Unless Johnson, when put in charge of the cover up, simply wouldn't play along with the invasion scenario now that he had what he wanted. But if that were the case I'd think they would have insured that LBJ lose the 1964 election. And clearly he was willing to give the military industrial complex their Vietnam war in return for the crown they handed him.
I just don't know...
Tosh Plumlee
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Boffo post Mark.