Myra Bronstein

dupe

...

She was a member there for awhile...

_______

Dixie

Are you talking about Tosh's daughter here?

...Then she was gone for quite awhile and when she came back, she was a very different type person, with some very strange things to say about her father.

_______

Dixie

What kind of strange things?

Terri is right!! ...

Dixie

"Terri" is wrong.

"TerrY" is right.

Onward indeed, James.

With the caveat that the photos we do have of the historic Morales are B&W and few in number, there is nothing in his appearance that to these eyes would prompt the "Indian" sobriquet.

That being noted, it may well be that "El Indio" was not inspired by facial features but rather arose from recognition of heritage alone.

I still feel that I'm on shakey ground, but something's wrong with the Morales picture(s). Again, compare the big, round countenance in the Cuban photo with the others we now can study. The high school basketball view and the Viet Nam shots show a slender person of modest frame.

(And yes, I have first-hand evidence of what middle age can do to one's middle section.)

But what about bone structure? And what about the hair? Significantly different styles and textures are noted.

As for the other El Indio being Cuban -- I think you're right. My own search through the literature continues.

I do not want to be instrumental in encouraging yet another wild goose chase. And yet ...

Curioser and curioser ...

Charles

We need John Armstrong on the case.

James,

"Dramatic" is the only word to describe the weight loss. This is the sort of thing that contributes to the "were there more than one of these guys" questions.

I'd appreciate your take on the differences between the Cuban-released photo of the clean-shaven, square-jawed, round-faced Morales, and the "dramatically" thinner character we otherwise see. Please think of this in light of the two El Indios issue as I've raised it previously.

One of many questions: Do you see anything in the Morales photographic record -- albeit comprised of B&W images -- that would lead a stereotypically inclined person to peg him as an "Indian"?

Charles

Charles,

In addition to the weight loss issue there is also his height. In the new Vietnam images, he seems to be of average height when from all reports he was well over 6 foot. The images show him standing alongside a Vietnamese gentleman of roughly the same height and tall Vietnamese are somewhat of a rarety. Given that these two men were indeed in excess of 6 foot, that would make the bald guy over 7 foot tall.

Maybe I am not factoring in perspectives here and one of the forum's photographic experts can explain, but the discrepancies appear to be considerable.

To add another perspective, I showed the Vietnam photos to someone who had worked with Morales and he didn't recognize him but did say that the one snapped in Peru was definitely him.

As to the two 'El Indio's', there was a Cuban nicknamed 'El Indio' but I have not been able to find a photograph of him.

Onward!

James

Did he have a 13" head?

...

I'm rather curious.

How old is Tosh? It seems a bit odd to me that someone his age would be depended upon to fly around the world on covert missions. You would expect covert operators to use someone relatively young and vigorous, to avoid the risk of, say, dying at the yoke from a heart attack or old age.

Just wondering.

Totally agreed about that Ron.

I'll accept Peter's assurance that he still flew.

But the age factor makes this scenario even more incredible.

Hi I am a friend of Tosh's. His brother ask me to post. I do not have all the details, but received word Sunday that he and Tom Walker his co-pilot went down in Afgan Sat. in a freak storm storm. Will give more details when we receive them. The information came from a DEA friend of Tosh's in Houston Texas. Do not know what Tosh was working on but it was said it was a classified "BlackWater " field operation. Thats all we have at this time.

Afhan is not in South America.

Wrong continent.

BK

**************************************************************************

"Hi I am a friend of Tosh's. His brother ask me to post. I do not have all the details, but received word Sunday that he and Tom Walker his co-pilot went down in Afgan Sat. in a freak storm storm. Will give more details when we receive them. The information came from a DEA friend of Tosh's in Houston Texas. Do not know what Tosh was working on but it was said it was a classified "BlackWater " field operation. Thats all we have at this time."

I saw where he went down in Afghanistan with his co-pilot Tom Walker, in a freak storm, on Saturday.

Where did you see mention of South America, in that post?

In the subject line Terry.

Myra, Kathy,

This is not a hoax. Tim's wife called Tosh when Tim died, left a voicemail, and did not hear back. I also left one today and have not heard back. This is TOTALLY not Tosh.

He cared about his friends here and always returned calls. Sometimes he'd just call to say hello, like he did with me about a month ago. Chris told me yesterday that he and Tim talked recently also.

I wish this was not true...but...not hearing back from Tosh is completely unlike him.

Dawn

This does sound serious then.

And I suppose we'll never know much more than we know today.

Well, certain song lyrics come to mind right now...

Me and Bill there we both come from Georgia

Met Hank out in New Mexico

We're bound for Duranqo to join Pancho Villa

We hear that he's payin' in gold

I guess a man's got to do what he's best at

Ain't found nothin' better so far

Been called mercenaries and men with no country

Just soldiers in search of a war

And we're bound for the border

We're soldiers of fortune

And we'll fight for no country but we'll die for good pay

Under the flag of of the greenback dollar

Or the peso down Mexico way

When this war is over might go back to Georgia

And settle down quiet some where

I'll most likely pack up and head south for Chile

Heard tell there's some trouble down there

And we're bound for the border

We're soldiers of fortune

And we'll fight for no country but we'll die for good pay

Under the flag of of the greenback dollar

Or the peso down Mexico way

Mercenary Song

Steve Earle

Hi I am a friend of Tosh's. His brother ask me to post. I do not have all the details, but received word Sunday that he and Tom Walker his co-pilot went down in Afgan Sat. in a freak storm storm. Will give more details when we receive them. The information came from a DEA friend of Tosh's in Houston Texas. Do not know what Tosh was working on but it was said it was a classified "BlackWater " field operation. Thats all we have at this time.

Afhan is not in South America.

Wrong continent.

BK

That's just the kind of mistake Tosh would make.

The fact that so many people doubt the veracity of this post says a lot.

If he really died (in Afgan, South America...) in the manner stated and some close friend knows him well enough to know he posted some on the forum (but not well enough to know he stopped posting) and also knows his login, then he was working for a monstrous company of mercenaries and criminals and murderers. From CIA to Blackwater. What's in a name?

If he didn't really die then this is a despicable (but not uncommon on the internet) stunt, while people are still reeling over the loss of Tim Carroll no less. In fact the timing is rather incredible. It makes me wonder if he got the idea for the (possible) stunt from the thread on Tim.

I don't suppose it's possible to get confirmation of this story?

What with it being covert and classified and all...

Some things never change.

Cross posted from another thread:

I find a number of startling omissions in this article. Huge weight is given to the death of a 'Gordon Campbell' who is clearly not the man Bradley Ayers knew at JM/WAVE. Morley omits several new positive IDs of Joannides, then cites a negative ID by Timothy Kalaris without telling us that Timothy's father George was the successor to Angleton as the Head of Counterintelligence. It does make you wonder.

The alleged date of Gordon Campbell's death is what most intrigues me. As I've posted elsewhere previously, though it failed to generate any comments, professional assassination nay-sayer Mel Ayton was first out of the gate in trying to impugn Shane's story. In so doing, he sought out old CIA hands to refute the identifications presented in Shane's piece, including one from Grayston Lynch, who said of Gordon Campbell, in Ayton's words: "the man in the LAPD film footage is not Campbell and that he “…knew Gordon Campbell.”

Let's assume that Lynch did know Gordon Campbell, as he presumably must have done. How, then, do we reconcile Lynch's failure to tell Ayton that Campbell had died in '62, and thus couldn't possibly have been at the Ambassador Hotel in '68?

Did this key salient fact simply slip Lynch's mind?

Or did he not know Campbell had died in '62?

Or, did he know it and yet, for reasons about which we can only speculate, refuse to disclose this to Ayton?

Or did Campbell not die in '62, which would be suggested by Brad Ayers' contrary assertions, and Lynch's failure to mention this to Ayton?

The fact that there are/were two such men named Gordon Campbell only serves to muddy the issue even further.

As I've also pointed out elsewhere, one could more easily dismiss Shane's assertions as fantasy speculations were it not for the demonstrable presence of [ex-?] CIA personnel among the LAPD squad responsible for "solving" RFK's assassination, their heavy-handed intimidation of witnesses, and the subsequent disappearance of critical evidence illustrating the likelihood of a second shooter in the kitchen pantry area. Given how these two CIA men seem to have been deliberately inserted into the crime-solving process, and the fashion in which they steered the so-called investigation, it is almost as though they were parachuted into those positions for the express purpose of nullifying the chances for a genuine and comprehensive investigation. And yet, what aim would any of that have served, unless these CIA alumni were inserted for the express purpose of ensuring that CIA's own complicity in the crime remained undetected?

Initially, I was predisposed to dismiss Shane's piece, if only because I found it astonishingly counter-intuitive that three key CIA personnel would be at the crime scene. It would have been a highly risky gambit, should their presence have been detected. However, even if we allow that not all three men tentatively identified were CIA, the presence of any one of them at the crime scene is sufficient to raise fresh questions about what he was doing there, and how that led to the subsequent insertion of CIA/LAPD personnel to preclude investigation of that fact.

It seems to me that, thanks to Shane and his hard work, we have a clearer knowledge of the two bookends to the event - CIA at the crime scene before the crime occurred and then afterward in charge of the crime's so-called investigation - but what we currently lack is what happened between those bookends.

Well there were certainly commonalities between the two brothers' assassinations that indicates the need for technical personnel on site. For example:

12:29 pm on Nov 22, 1963, Dallas -- "Geneva Hine, the only employee in the Depository's second-floor offices, observes the electrical power and telephone system go dead. The Dallas Police radio systems Channel One, reserved for officers participating in the security of the President, is suddenly immobilized." (From "Trauma Room One.")

June 5, 1968, immediately after the murder the police radios are immobilized for an extended period of time. (From

"The Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy." I don't have the book in front of me so I can't quote.)

So if nothing else there were likely frequency jamming people, and likely the need to oversee those people.

I used to think it incredible that CIA big wigs would want to be seen at an assassination site. But I now believe that their arrogance, determination for success, assurance of cover-up & complicity, sense of historical magnitude, and hatred for the Kennedys compelled them to be there.

The main point is this forum was set up for children...

We know that John. That's why we're acting like children.

*******************************************************************

HAH! HAH! HAH! HAH! HAH!

That's what I love about you, Myra. Your dry wit.

Good crowd good crowd.

Thank you very much.

Drive safely.

Here is Tim's article 'The whole bay of pigs thing, from Dallas to Watergate'. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2322

As you can see, it sparked much debate and posited some very real theories and truths.

Where is the article? It was deleted and only the discussion remains.

Myra, I think it can be viewed here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=14448

Thank you Mike.

And what can you tell us about Mary Meyer's infamous diary?

Was Mary's assassination timed so that her friend Ann Truitt was gone and therefore unable to retrieve the diary herself?

I am sure that this was the case. In 1963 Ben Bradlee sent Jim Truitt to Tokyo in order to become the Japan bureau chief for Newsweek. This of course meant that Mary Meyer's closest friend, Ann Truitt, would be out of the country. We also know that Ben Bradlee was at this time a CIA asset. For example, see Deborah Davis' book on Katharine Graham, for evidence of this.

On the evening that Mary Meyer was murdered, Ann Truitt phoned Antoinette (Tony) Bradlee and asked her to go and get the diary. Unfortunately, she told her husband, Ben Bradlee about this. Bradlee later recalled what he did after Truitt's phone-call: "We didn't start looking until the next morning, when Tony and I walked around the corner a few blocks to Mary's house. It was locked, as we had expected, but when we got inside, we found Jim Angleton, and to our complete surprise he told us he, too, was looking for Mary's diary."

In 1965 Katharine Graham appointed Bradlee as assistant managing editor of the Washington Post under Alfred Friendly, his former colleague at USIE. Bradlee then recruits Jim Truitt to the Washington Post. However, Bradlee sacks Jim Truitt in 1969. As part of his settlement he took $35,000 on the written condition that he did not write anything for publication about his experiences at the Washington Post that was "in any way derogatory" of the company.

It is worth quoting Deborah Davis in Katharine the Great (1979) for an explanation why Jim Truitt went public with his information about the Meyer murder: "It is only a matter of time, Angleton feels, until Bradlee makes a serious mistake, as he eventually does with the publication of Conversations with Kennedy, in which he mentions that Mary Meyer was murdered, but only in a footnote. A former Post editor named James Truitt is enraged at this; according to Truitt, Bradlee has forced him out of the paper in a particularly nasty fashion, with accusations of mental incompetence, and now Truitt decides to get back at Bradlee by revealing to other newspapers his belief that Bradlee's story on the Cord Meyers in Conversations with Kennedy was not the whole story; that Mary Meyer had been Kennedy's lover and that the day of her murder, James Angleton of the CIA searched her apartment and burned her diary."

Thank you John.

I wonder if the diary was enough of a factor to be a/the motive in her murder.

Here is Tim's article 'The whole bay of pigs thing, from Dallas to Watergate'. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2322

As you can see, it sparked much debate and posited some very real theories and truths.

Where is the article? It was deleted and only the discussion remains.

Michael Paine reveals that Oswald told him that he was "spying" on the

right wing. The shooting at Walker's house is covered and Walter Kirk

Coleman describes what he saw after he heard the shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGOMXe_4MUo

Wow, I've never seen Walker in anything but still photos.

Thanks Gil.

I think he was in the thick of things.

I just received an email from Tim Carroll's wife, Cris, informing us that Tim passed on a few hours ago.

Here is the email,

"This is Cris, Tim's wife.

My dearest one died several hours ago, peacefully and according to his wishes, he asked me to email you as soon as possible. Your friendship and companionship particularly in his final months was cherished.

Thank you all for loving him".

Tim is dearly missed.

RIP my friend.

Ow.

I only knew him thru the forum, and not well at that.

I now pay special attention when I'm reading an old thread and see a post from Tim.

Remember how David Talbot said he'd go visit Tim?

Anyone know if he did?

Maybe a list of censored "SWEAR" words should be posted. Not everyone

knows. Prudes discern swearing in many commonplace words. Such a list

would allow underage forum members to know what they are missing

without being subjected to them in postings. Most kids know more of them

than I do anyway. Personally I try to avoid all CURSEWORDS, especially

those of the religious sort.

How many minors are forum members anyway?

Maybe we should start a thread where members can propose words

to be on the banned list. I am sure Brits would ban "bloody", which

might handicap discussion of autopsy reports.

I am vehemently against ad hominem personal attacks, whether or not

they use "swear" words. I am not against colorful language which is in

common everyday use unless it is directed at a particular person.

I am for exemplary writing, and all should eschew crude or coarse

language except in SELF-DEFENSE. When unfairly attacked, one must

expose the attacker in no uncertain terms. Daintiness is perceived

as cowardice.

Jack

Can't imagine anyone mistaking you for dainty Jack.

Is there some way for forum members to see Damore's manuscript and/or get the name of the supposed CIA contract agent who he says did the professional hit?

I have asked my informant if I can name Mary Pinchot Meyer's killer on the Forum. I am awaiting his reply.

Hello -

My name is Peter Janney and I am the person John is referring to.

...

Thank you for posting Peter.

Your information is much appreciated.

Good luck with both of your projects on Mary Meyer.

Mary Meyer most certainly had a relationship with Tim Leary.

Do you have an opinion on whether or not Leary was a CIA employee/asset?

Why do you think Leary waited so many years before revealing his relationship with Mary?

Mary Meyer and JFK did take LSD together at Joe Alsop's house in Georgetown in the early Spring of 1963.

Well given the fact that Alsop was a major CIA asset in Operation Mockingbird, that had to have worked against President Kennedy. Any idea why in the world they'd get together at Alsop's house? Even if they didn't know about his CIA links, they had to know he was a widely syndicated journalist.

Mary Meyer was not murdered; she was assassinated. I believe I am well on my way to proving this. The assassin's name was William L. Mitchell and he testified at the Crump murder trial as the "jogger" who passed Mary on his way back to Key Bridge. He testified that a black man, allegedly Ray Crump, was following Mary after he passed her. It was a complete frame up, again generated by certain individuals within the CIA.

Do you know why she was assassinated?

Was it because of her knowledge of Operation Mockingbird from her husband's work in it?

Was it because of her relationship with the President?

Was the patsy, Ray Crump, selected in advance or was he a patsy of convenience?

It was clearly a flimsy frame which indicates lack of planning.

I find that odd.

Do you think there was any ulterior motive to their selection of a black man as the patsy?

Possibly to cause additional racial tension in the civil rights era (as if any more was needed)?

Leo Damore interviewed "William L.Mitchell" ("Mitchell" told Damore that his name was an alias and that he had several aliases that he used) on March 31, 1993 on the phone for several hours.

Do you know any of Mitchell's other aliases?

Any idea why Mitchell is willing to talk?

Do you have any reason to doubt his credibility?

Is he still alive?

"Mitchell" confessed to Damore that he had been ordered to take out Mary Meyer. Immediately, after the call, Damore called his attorney. His attorney took five (5) pages of notes on that call and he saved them and has given the notes to me.

Did he say who in the CIA ordered the hit and why?

Do you think Cord Meyer was part of it?

And what can you tell us about Mary Meyer's infamous diary?

Was Mary's assassination timed so that her friend Ann Truitt was gone and therefore unable to retrieve the diary herself?

Please feel free to post questions and I will try to respond. More later. Thank you.

Oh you bet.

Thank you again.

Myra

Hargraves, being the explosives expert, was a logical person to make the go/no-go call.

Hardly.

I am out of attachment space or I would load some view of the elevator. The elevator in the TSBD appears to have been the type with the pullaway gate - hence the shaft would have been accessible from 2-5 if the lift were stopped on 6.

Although I requested additional space, I did not receive any. Would someone be willing to post the photos for me? I combined them into one file.

- lee

I can do that Lee.

I assume you're aware that you can free up space by deleting old photos though.

John,

I would ask how many “children” actually visit the Controversial Issues board?

The impression I have is none. All the posters I have seen are adults – and, all the subjects discussed are growed-up themes. I do not include sixth-formers and above as children btw, although legally they are still in their minority. Heck, some of these “kids” know more about life than I do… and I haven’t led a sheltered life.

They are not allowed to post but I assume that we get a lot of young people who visit the forum. According to a national survey my website is used by more history students in the UK than any other. My website contains hundreds of links to this forum. This is why I take so much effort to make sure that members do not use abusive language. If members refuse to abide by these rules they will be removed from the forum.

Well it's heartening to know that some young'uns are learning real history to dilute the pervasive propaganda.

Having not been born in the "Land of the Free",

John cannot possibly understand the horror which we Americans face when we are unknowingly thrust in the midst of the "cultured". It is a terrible burden that we Americans bear/bare, as John so frquently acknowledges.

I feel however that most of us are generally nice people.....We are merely incapable of engaging the more cultured in the statospheric arena in which they have had the advantage of always having competed.

I feel that it would be more Christian, or more universally spiritual, for those so fortunate as not to have suffered the depravity of our outcast society, to be somewhat more forgiving of we unfortunates.

But I personally greatly appreciate the tolerance of this forum, the sacrifice which has been made by the members in their toleration of our crude and often vulgar behavior, and the empathy which has been demonstrated.

I consider myself particularly fortunate and now feel that I might, with continued guidance, be lifted from the dregs into which I was cast at birth. I feel that "all Americans" owe John Simkins a tremendous expression of gratitude.

We have been truly blessed and should eagerly express such. It is this type of tolerance and understanding toward which I shall set my goals.

Again....Thank You John !

Charles Black

Oh Charles, this is the best ever post. It should win some kind of "best ever post" award.

My guess though is that the point will not be taken, much as humor is almost invariably lost on the target.

The main point is this forum was set up for children...

We know that John. That's why we're acting like children.

Boffo thread Paul, Cliff, John.

Thank you for keeping it going.

Debra, power point presentation was truly fascinating. I wish I could have heard the narrative.

Do any of you know if President Kennedy, who clearly stated on tape that Harriman was pro-coup thereby at odds with JFK's own policy and directives, had the opportunity to react to Harriman's treachery, either officially or unofficially?

I realize he didn't have much time to do so between the two coups: Diem's and his own.

No. I believe in freedom of speech and it should be protected from censors who believe in "correctness".

I think most Forum members believe in freedom of speech. That doesn't mean its okay to use the N word on the downtown streets of Dallas, as they did in the sixties. Even the staunchest defender of freedom of speech wouldn't tend to use the F word or the S word in the presence of strangers or people they just met.

The real believer in free speech recognizes there is a place and a time for everything. There are plenty of chat rooms and news groups where one can go and listen to or use any language they want to.

My language is much saltier with my close friends than it is in a restaurant or grocery store. Even a free society has some forms of protocol. The Education Forum represents an online society, after a fashion.

Bottom line, the use of certain language is an insult to the stated aims of the person that makes the JFK Assassination Debate section available to all of us. To me, its about self-respect as well as respect for John Simkin and what he has provided. John has done a remarkable job in allowing members to express themselves freely. The responsibility is a difficult one, and often thankless. He deserves the right to draw a line if he feels it is necessary.

I realize that not every one shares my opinion. That's all it is, just an opinion.

FWIW I think that's really nicely stated Mike. Free speech doesn't guarantee a forum.

I'll add my observation that the non-swearing rule, among others, was implemented a while back. So it seems gratuitously argumentative to start debating a rule every time it's enforced.

Furthermore it is possible to express oneself without swearing.

...

Ned Flanders does it.

Flag set post.