Myra Bronstein

Dusting this thread off 'cause I'm reaching the tipping point from suspecting that the BOP was a trap to sandbag President Kennedy to believing it (almost) 100%. Thanks to Talbot. Pg. 47 (I still don't have the book but someone posted this excerpt on another forum) about the BOP:

"...The country's military and intelligence chiefs had clearly believed they could sandbag the young, untested commander-in-chief into joining the battle. But he had stunned them by refusing to escalate the fighting.

"They were sure I'd give in to them and send the go-ahead order to the Essex," Kennedy said to Dave Powers. "They couldn't believe that a new president like me wouldn't panic and try to save his own face. Well, they had me figured all wrong."

What JFK suspected about the CIA--that the agency knew all along that its plan was doomed to fail unless Kennedy could be panicked into sending in U.S. forces at the eleventh hour--was confirmed years later. In 2005, a secret internal CIA history of the Bay of Pigs was finally released to the public. The 300-page document contained proof that Bissell concealed the operation's bleak prospects from Kennedy when he briefed him about it for the first time shortly after JFK's election. The internal history quoted a CIA memo dated November 15, 1960, that was prepared for Bissell before the Kennedy briefing. In it, the agency conceded that "our concept...to secure a beach with airstrip is now seen to be unachievable, except as joint Agency/DOD action." In other words, "The CIA knew that it couldn't accomplish this type of overt paramilitary mission without direct Pentagon participation--and committed that to paper and then went ahead and tried it anyway," explained Peter Kornbluh of the National Security Archive, the George Washington University-based research group that made public the CIA document. Furthermore, there is no evidence that Bissell informed Kennedy of the CIA's bleak assessment."

Again, it would have been illegal for Kennedy to use the military for a covert operation, yet the CIA seemed to expect it according to the document Talbot quotes. I sure would like to see this document...and/or even know its name. I wonder what Talbot's footnotes say about it.

...

P.S. Do you still think "Tosh" Plumlee was one of the conspirators? (I remember his calling you a #@&!$ in his last or next-to-last post. It made my day!)

That was a high point for me too, because it was illustrative of certain things that I knew to be true.

As is this thread Thomas.

_______________________________________

Tom,

You could always leave the picnic early. No one would miss you. I see a seat open in "Design And Drama." That would elevate the quality of postings in both forums. More beer for us.

I hope the rumpled sportcoat and the craggy, hammy, world-weary affectations once worked for you somewhere. That memory must be sweet. Hey, check out "Cooperative Learning." That stuff is likely to play over there. Bring the herringbone.

John,

With posts of this high quality you just may end up with a fan club.

I might end up being a fan club president.

Thought you should know.

...

"Bring the herringbone."

Oh man what a masterpiece.

Recently, I finished reading Harvey and Lee and feel left at a precipice. I thought it would say something about what happened to Lee. It doesn't. And it doesn't mention Donald O. Norton because John Armstrong wanted one more piece of evidence, as to was Donald O. Norton really Lee Oswald.

My curiosity is engaged again, especially since Donald O. Norton owns properties in Avon Park, FL, about 2 hours from me.

How could a red-headed man once impersonate Lee Oswald? What happened to Lee after Harvey's death? Wasn't he afraid the company he kept would now turn on him? They killed the President; so why not some CIA underling? Besides William Kelly's seeing him once (he doesn't remember what "Lee" Oswald looked like), the last time Lee is seen is when two Dallas cops brought him out the rear exit of the Texas Theater. A store owner witnessed it. (Harvey Oswald was taken out the front exit at the same time in a riot of police.) It looked like he was being arrested, but everything was calm, smooth. What happened to Lee? Plastic surgery? Dyed hair? Does his hairdresser know for sure?

Someone with a great deal of knowledge of the Kennedy Assassination told me that when authorities exhumed LHO, it looked like the grave had been tampered with. This person told me that the head of the body was disconnected from the body. And that the head and the body were of 2 different men. Was one Lee?

I'd love a discussion on this.

Kathy

I haven't read Harvey & Lee and don't know squat about this (now that I've established my qualifications), but one episode of TMWKK (presumably the one about Oswald) had a related segment. Marina had Oswald's body exhumed because she was starting to doubt who was in the grave, and the coroner who looked at the remains was interviewed and said:

-The casket was in a concrete (strong/heavy) vault and one end of the vault was completely bashed in, broken into.

-Dental records proved the head was Oswald's, but...

-The head, which was not attached to the body, had originally been cut open for autopsy purposes in 1963.

However, the head in the casket had no such cut.

If it puts your mind at ease McAdams says there's nothing suspicious about it.

ALERT - St. John Hunt is on RIGHT NOW with Alex Jones regarding his father's role in JFK and Watergate:

http://www.infowars.com/listen.html

Says he hated Kennedys and would say often, at home, "Let's finish the job and get rid of Ted."

Regards,

JG

What?

His father said that?

He denied direct involvement in President Kennedy's murder yet wants to "finish the job"?

'Kay...

[

quote name='John Gillespie' date='May 14 2007, 07:47 PM' post='102450']

ALERT - St. John Hunt is on RIGHT NOW with Alex Jones regarding his father's role in JFK and Watergate:

http://www.infowars.com/listen.html

Says he hated Kennedys and would say often, at home, "Let's finish the job and get rid of Ted."

Regards,

JG

Erick downloaded the E Howard 4 minute speech from the net. Interesting. I love hometown guy, Alex. ...

Thanks

Dawn

...

Mr. Bugliosi says he does not believe he will convince all the conspiracy-minded people out there. But as for the 75 percent who believe there was more to it than Oswald, he said, “I think we’re going to knock it down substantially.”

Maybe he gets a commission for every brain washed.

From the Leonard Lopate show, an interview with David Talbot about the Kennedy brothers, Jack and Bobby:

http://prairieweather.typepad.com/the_scribe/

Audio link: http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/episodes/2007/05/07

Good interview Mike, thanks.

"I met with one, a man named Angelo Murgado, a Bay of Pigs veteran, who warned Bobby that there was dangerous talk about the president in these circles. They even tracked Oswald to New Orleans, these informants for Bobby, and they reported back to Bobby that this strange gringo, Oswald, was up to something, and they didn’t know exactly what. But he seemed odd to them."

Hm, I know many think that Murgado has no credibility in the context of the Odio episode. Do doubts of his credibility go even deeper though? Is Talbot quoting someone very iffy?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&hl=Murgado

So how many conspirators have we narrowed it down to after 44 years?, 500 plus or minus 1000?

Wouldn't it be easier to list "who didn't do it?

It sure seems like it.

President Kennedy crossed the whole corrupt crime-riddled establishment.

It's part of what made him great.

...

P.S. Do you still think "Tosh" Plumlee was one of the conspirators? (I remember his calling you a #@&!$ in his last or next-to-last post. It made my day!)

That was a high point for me too, because it was illustrative of certain things that I knew to be true.

As is this thread Thomas.

I'm very saddened to hear this. Tim was always very responsive to questions I had concerning the assassination in the last few years. He also has a good sense of humour, I remember a video that he posted of Bush's speeches edited into his own endition of John Lennon's imagine. I am glad that I got to know Tm, even partially, through the forum. Although most of us have never met, I do feel as if I know some peoples personal character traits and feel as if I know them personally.

Give Tim my best Dawn. Thanks for posting this, it was definitely worth doing. Please let Tim know that we have been responding to this and that we wish him the best.

If there is anything I can do, please let me know.

All the best,

John

If by some miracle Stanford: 1. takes his case, 2. agrees to not just one lung but two and a heart (his is 80% blocked) I will up date this. Of course.....people die waiting for this sort of thing. And Tim seems resigned to this.

He really wanted to update Carl's Yankee/Cowboy but ....

We have to treasure every day of life, because it can be gone in an instant.

Dawn

Thank you for the updates Dawn. My best wishes to Tim. I want him to update Carl's book too (it actually jibes nicely with some distinctions Peter Dale Scott makes in his book, so I was thinking about it today).

Well... I presented a list of suspicious deaths surrounding President Kennedy's murder and asked for input. The list excluded Karyn Kupcinet, because I'm unconvinced about the story, but Kathy alertly called the omission to my attention and we were in the midst of discussing it.

Thank you for taking the time to review my list Kathy, I appreciate your input.

Sorry the subject upset you Terry; Kathy and I are brainstorming here. And brainstorming is, ideally, non-judgemental to encourage free exchange of ideas, which is what I hoped for when I revised this thread.

So let's continue to brainstorm. Oh, and if anyone knows the ages and exact dates of death for anyone on my list (for whom I don't already have that info, duh) then please let me know.

Video - Coverup: The Warren Commission

A look at the Katzenbach Memo and

Lyndon Johnson admits that the Warren Commission was a fraud, telling

would-be Commission member Senator Richard Russell in a phone call,

"all you're going to do is evaluate a Hoover report he's already made."

In other words, "rubberstamp" Hoover's report.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspWgqJApYA

Good segment Gil.

Is this from an episode of TMWKK? I don't recall it and I thought I'd watched most of them.

"Rubberstamp" Hoover's report. That's the clearest I've ever heard it stated.

[...]

I will say that the classic equation "garbage in=garbage out" might explain why you're disappointed with your results.

____________________________

My-ra,

How could I possibly be "disappointed with my results" when I've never claimed to have arrived at any? It's much more fun to just sit back and watch all the names and groups and associations thrown out as possible conspirators on this forum and others like it.

Keep up the good work!

--Thomas

___________________________

Oh, ok. Then when you said:

"So how many conspirators have we narrowed it down to after 44 years?, 500 plus or minus 1000?

What a joke........"

What you meant was:

'I'll depend on everyone else do the work and then complain about their results or lack thereof.'

So you're just a spectator heckling the players.

Then why did you say "we"?

Whatever, keep up the good work with that heckling. I suppose you're filling some kind of niche.

I think we've got it narrowed down to Mac Wallace and those who were stupid enough to use him.

Pithy and precise. Well said Ron.

And it did takes decades to get the positive ID on Mac's TSBD fingerprint, didn't it?

What a joke........

Maybe we get out of it what we put into it.

______________________

Yeah My-rah, absolutely....

So, what have you "gotten out of it" so far, other than the fact that you now think William "Tosh" Plumlee was one of the (witting) conspirators and that the CIA is a nasty, nasty organization and that you really really hate this 'n that 'n tuther thang 'bout 'Merika........?

--Thomas

______________________

I'm satisfied with what I've gotten out of it so far and don't feel obliged to report to anyone on demand.

I will say that the classic equation "garbage in=garbage out" might explain why you're disappointed with your results.

Karyn Kupcinet is another whose death has been linked to the Kennedy assassination. I am not convinced but it is an interesting story.

Irv Kupcinet was a well-known journalist and television talk show host. He knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones (Forgive My Grief, 1966) Kupcinet kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Kupcinet passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a strong link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Irv Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm

Karyn Kupcinet

John, Penn Johes Jr was on Kup's Show circa 1966. It must have been here that he learned of the Kupcinet's murdered daughter. He said nothing about it on Kup's Show. I never read any of his books. They are hard to come by and too expensive for me. Someone told me that Penn Jones Jr was often misquoted on the Internet. I wouldn't know. But this business is in Book II of Forgive My Grief.

There was a story that circulated widely in newspapers the day after President Kennedy was killed. A distraught woman, trying to make a person-to-person call to Chicago, screamed into the phone and whispered into the phone that "They're going to kill the President." Twenty minutes later, Kennedy was shot. The supervisor of the operators reported this to the police. I've read that the call came from a law office in Oxnard, CA. But Penn Jones apparently believed this could have been Karyn Kupcinet. In my opinion, it wasn't. And I don't think she had any foreknowledge.

Karyn was murdered by the shutting off of her left carotid artery. This matches the coronor's cause of death -- that a strong man attacked her from behind and strangled her with only one hand -- his left. The coronor found much trauma to the left side of her neck. There's a specific headlock that will do this. She wasn't found for 3 days. She had a copious leukerrhea substance inside her vagina. When they tried to examine it, it had decomposed. They weren't sure what it was. Her apartment looked ransacked and only a great quantity of her Desoxyn - Methamphetamine - pills were missing.

She was found dead by her friends, Mark and Marcia Goddard. Mark starred in Lost in Space. Mark believed she killed herself. She had told people that she was going to Glenn Ford's house for Thanksgiving with Andrew Prine. Instead she was murdered on Thanksgiving and Prine said he never had any intention of taking her to Ford's house.

There are several suspects and as many theories. At this point, in my own mind, I am not sure she was killed because her father was investigating the Chicago angle to the Assassination. But I do believe she was murdered. It's a mystery and I keep exploring it. If she was killed to hurt Kup, no one could do a better job. Irv Kupcinet was a Zionist. And he was interested in the Ruby angle. It seems people who had anything to do with Ruby were often murdered.

Read more at 'groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet'

and 'thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com' present page and in the archives

Kathy

Thank you Kathy.

I left that one out 'cause I really don't know what to make of it.

Did the telephone operator tell Penn Jones about the call?

How would the operator know who the caller was?

Did Jones say how he investigated the story?

It just sounds a little iffy.

Does anyone else have any insight into whether or not the Karyn Kupcinet episode actually happened?

I thought it might be worth taking a look at Robert Strange McNamara. He complained that he lost a lot of money when he left the Ford Motor Company in 1961 to become JFK's Secretary of Defense. Is it possible he thought it was morally right to get kickbacks from military contracts? McNamara is not only implicated in the TFX scandal but also the desire to send troops to Vietnam.

...

I have no idea what to believe. This scenario is nothing like the detailed description I'm reading of the TFX episode in Fletcher Prouty's book "JFK: The CIA, Vietnam and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy."

He says it was a strictly political decision. The Kennedys plotted maps to see where the geography of contractors and sub-contractors would most benefit them in the 1964 election and beyond in terms of picking up votes. They decided

they'd get less political capital/likely votes from Boeing so the chose the other one.

That's nothing like the account referenced here.

I sure wonder which is true, or if it's a third scenario, or if it's pieces of various scenarios.

Setting update flag.

_______________________________

Flag setting update.

And yes, oh, uh Mr. Simkin, would you please elaborate on what you said in an earlier post about LBJ's blackmailing of JFK to get him to appoint Connally Secretary of the Navy? Fascinating stuff I'm sure and and believe it or not, I totally believe it. Would love to read about it, though, so it could rise above blind belief on my part if you know what I mean. Although I'm sure it's probably already been discussed in great length on this forum, I have neither the time nor the patience to try to find the pertinent post (not to mention thread) by using the rather "lousy" search-engine with which we are stuck here. Shall I type in "Connally" or "blackmail" or "JFK" or "Connally blackmailed JFK" or "TFX-111" or exactly what? LOL Of course, I don't really expect you to respond to this post of mine. After all, you very rarely do, busy man that you undoubtedly are....

Sincerely,

--Thomas

P.S. Funny thing is, I can totally believe that LBJ (and JEH for that matter) blackmailed the $#!@ out of JFK (and his bro). I just want to be as well informed as you are.... Seriously. Thank you. Your fabian socialist disciple-- T.G.

P.P.S. How's West Ham doing? Seriously.

_______________________________

It is a horrible search engine.

...

Myra, I could be wrong, but I don't think this particular CIA action would be considered fodder for sharp satire, or critical commentary.

...

I think I read that the movie will be a musical Greg.

...

Fabulous idea. "The hills are alive...with covert operators." Or the Spinal Tap contribution: "You're a cheeky one, Dicky Helms..."

Myra, get writing!

Paul

Sounds like a worthy project for Myra.

Here's my contribution, fwiw

My Favorite Things

Bolt-cutters on toesies and razors in mittens

Rottweilers in kennels and Old Cambridge Britons

Brown paper packages dropped off in our stings

These are a few of my favorite things

Skull and Bone cronies and bulemic models

Cartels and hotels and untraceable bundles

"Restyled" priest-pilots who fly with the moon on their wings

These are a few of my favorite things

Girls in white dresses with white powder stashes

Crates of booze for the million dollar bashes

Cold Wars and Hot Wars and Terrorist Rings

These are a few of my favorite things

When the dog bites

When the bee stings

When I'm feeling sad

I simply remember my favorite things

And then I don't feel so bad

That is so macabre Greg.

I'd expect nothing less.

Ok, here's mine.

You gotta picture Carmen Miranda performing it.

(Sung to the tune of the Chaquita Banana jingle.)

I'm Chiquita banana and I used to be,

United Fruit and that's some history.

But there's more to show you if you want to see,

How we used the CIA, Hey!

Well United Fruit it was a company,

Dominating the economy.

In Guatemala where they stayed tax free,

Because they owned half the land! Wow!

But they didn't use all of the land you see,

They kept it to insure they had monopoly.

T'was actually a big conspiracy,

To keep all banana biz.

So the people living there did not feel free,

To plant some fruit trees in their own country.

They elected a leader and they said they'd need,

A piece of the banana pie.

When their leader said that he'd buy unused land,

And give it to the peasants as a helping hand.

United Fruit, well they devised a plan,

To call in the CIA-Olay!

Now the CIA as you may know or not,

Likes profit over people so they kill a lot.

When they got the call they said they'd hatch a plot,

To chase those damn commies out. And they did!

When it was over there were many dead.

The CIA said "better dead than red."

A Banana Republic's what they made instead.

And that's what it remains today! Yay!

Now I'm Chaquita banana and I'm here to say,

That I have everything I want today.

But if workers form a union I won't hesitate,

To call in the CIA! One more time!

I'm Chaquita banana and I'm here to say,

That I have everything I want today.

But if workers form a union I won't hesitate,

To call in the CIA! What'd I say?

I'll call in the CIA. You want a raise???

I'll call in the CIAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Andelay!

What a joke........

Maybe we get out of it what we put into it.

...

Myra, I could be wrong, but I don't think this particular CIA action would be considered fodder for sharp satire, or critical commentary.

...

I think I read that the movie will be a musical Greg.

...

Setting update flag.

I’m looking for information on the suspicious deaths surrounding President Kennedy’s assassination (not including LBJ’s killing fields). If anyone can supply some I’d appreciate it. Maybe between all of us I'll fill in some gaps.

Specifically, I need:

-Exact dates people died (as you can see I only have the month, or year, for some people), and

-Their age when they died.

I’d also like to have, but it’s not essential:

-City/State they died in.

I’m really only interested in suspicious deaths; I’ve omitted ones attributed to natural causes; though if there’s any doubt I’ll declare it suspicious. Also, if I excluded a name please let me know. I realize this is a lot of material...

1963:

November 20 Rose Cheramie is found unconsciousness by the side of the road at Eunice, Louisiana. As Lieutenant Francis Fruge of the Louisiana State Police

takes her to the state hospital Cheramie says that she was thrown out of a car by two gangsters who worked for Jack Ruby & claimed that the men were

involved in a plot to kill John F. Kennedy soon in Dallas, & that Oswald had visited Ruby's night club. Later she tells the same story to doctors & nurses

who treat her. As she appeared to be under the influence of drugs her story was ignored.

December Jack Zangretti, who expressed foreknowledge of Ruby shooting Oswald, is found shot to death.

1964:

February Eddy Benavides, lookalike brother to Tippit shooting witness Domingo Benavides who testified shooter was not Oswald, dies of gunshot to head.

February Betty MacDonald, former Ruby employee who alibied Warren Reynolds shooting suspect, dies by hanging in Dallas jail.

March Bill Chesher, thought to have information linking Oswald & Ruby, dies of heart attack.

March Hank Killam, husband of Ruby employee with additional Oswald tie, dies of cut throat.

April 23 Bill Hunter, reporter who was in Ruby's apartment on 11/24/63, is shot to death by Dallas police man Creighton Wiggins hours after George

Senator's testimony that he could not recall meeting. Wiggins explanation that his gun fired when he dropped it was proven impossible in court

& it was decided that Hunter had been murdered. Wiggins finally claimed he was playing quick draw with his fellow officer Errol F. Greenleaf

testified he had his back turned during shooting. In January 1965, both were convicted of involuntary manslaughter but given probation.

May 8 Gary Underhill, former military intelligence employee/CIA asset who claimed CIA was involved in JFK murder, dies from gunshot to head.

A few days earlier he appeared at the home of friends, badly shaken, & charged that Kennedy was killed by a small group within

the CIA & that his own life was in danger.

May Hugh Ward, private investigator working with Guy Banister & David Ferrie, dies of plane crash in Mexico.

DeLesseps Morrison, New Orleans Mayor, is a passenger in Ward's plane & also dies.

June 6 Guy Banister, ex-FBI agent in New Orleans connected to Ferrie, CIA, Carlos Marcello & Oswald, dies of heart attack at age 64.

August Teresa Norton, Ruby employee, is fatally shot.

September 21 Jim Koethe, reporter in Ruby's apartment on 11/24/63 & is writing book about Kennedy assassination, dies from karate chop to neck.

September 18 Charles Douglas Jackson, "Life" magazine senior Vice President who bought Zapruderfilm & locked it away, dies of unknown causes at age 62.

October 12 Mary Pinchot, JFK "special" friend whose diary was taken by CIA chief James Angleton after her death, is murdered at age 43.

1965:

January Paul Mandal, "Life" writer who told of JFK turning to rear when shot in throat, dies of cancer.

March Tom Howard, Ruby's 1st lawyer & in Ruby's apartment on 11/24/63, dies of heart attack at age 48, 2 days after friends see him

acting strangely. No autopsy is performed.

May Maurice Gatlin, pilot for Guy Banister, dies in a fall.

August Mona B. Saenz, Texas Employment clerk who interviewed Oswald, dies after being hit by Dallas bus. Banister, dies in a fall.

September 4 Rose Cheramie, who knew of assassination in advance & told of riding to Dallas with Cubans, is found dead in the road near Big Sandy, TX.

November 8 Dorothy Kilgallen, columnist who had private interview with Ruby & pledged to "break the [JFK] case wide open," dies at age 52

of reported drug overdose.

November Margaret Smith, close friend of Kilgallen who may have had her interview notes for safekeeping, dies 2 days after her of unknown causes.

December William Whaley, cab driver who drove Oswald to Oak Cliff, dies in car crash becoming only Dallas taxi driver to die on duty.

1966:

^ Judge Joe Brown, who presided over Ruby's trial, dies of heart attack.

^ Karen "Little Lynn" Carlin, Ruby employee who last talked with Ruby before Oswald shooting, dies from gunshot.

^ Clarence Oliver, District Attorney Investigator who worked Ruby case, dies of unknown causes.

January 9 Earlene Roberts, Oswald's landlady who testified before WC that DPD car honked in apparent signal to Oswald after assassination,

dies of heart attack. DPD denied they had any cars in that area, & later subject Roberts to intensive harassment, including contacting all employers

& getting her fired from jobs including 3 housekeeping and nursing jobs in April, May and June of 1964 alone.

February Albert Bogard, car salesman who said Oswald test drove new car, dies at 41 years old; is ruled suicide.

June Captain Frank Martin, Dallas policeman who witnessed Oswald slaying, told WC "there's a lot to be said but probably

be better if I don't say it," dies of sudden cancer.

August 9 Lee Bowers Jr., who witnessed men behind picket fence on grassy knoll, dies in motor accident after likely drugging.

On 22nd November, 1963, Bowers was working in a high railroad tower overlooking Dealey Plaza & saw two men behind fence on grassy knoll who

"were the only two strangers in the area. The others were workers whom I knew." Bowers said the two men were there while the shots were fired,

accompanied by "a flash of light or smoke." Bowers received death threats after interviews by WC & journalist Mark Lane.

Witnesses of crash say he was driven off road by black car. He survived for 4 hours & told ambulance crew he felt he had been drugged when he

stopped for coffee in Midlothian, TX.

September Marilyn "Delila Walle, Ruby dancer, dies of gunshot by husband of 1 month.

October 29 Lt. William Pitzer, Chief of the Educational Television Division of Bethesda Naval Medical School, who likely photographed JFK autopsy via

closed-circuit television dies of gunshot. A few days after autopsy colleague Dennis D. David found Pitzer working on photos of Kennedy autopsy & noted

entry wound in right temple with corresponding exit wound in the lower rear of skull. Prior to scheduled retirement after 28 years in the Navy, to accept

TV station job likely intending to make a program about assassination, he was found dead at Bethesda under very suspicious circumstances.

In May 1995, ex-Special Forces Colonel Daniel Marvin claimed to have

been solicited by CIA agent to "terminate" William Pitzer, which he had refused.

November James Worrell Jr., who saw man flee rear of Texas School Book Depository, dies in car crash.

December Hank Suydam, "Life" magazine official in charge of JFK stories, dies of heart attack.

1967:

^ Leonard Pullin, ivilian Navy employee who helped film "Last Two Days" about assassination, dies in 1-car crash.

January Jack Ruby, Oswald's slayer, dies of lung cancer at age 56 after telling family he was injected with cancer cells.

February Harold Russell, who saw escape of Tippit killer, is killed by cop in bar brawl.

February 22 David Ferrie, acquaintance of Oswald, Garrison suspect & employee of Guy Banister, dies of brain hemorrhage at age 49

before Garrison can arrest & charge him.

February 22 Eladio Del Valle, anti-Castro Cuban associate of David Ferrie being sought by Garrison, dies of gunshot to heart hours after Ferrie dies.

July 21 Dr. Mary Sherman, Ferrie associate working on cancer research, is found dead of stabbing in her burned down laboratory in New Orleans.

July 23 Desmond FitzGerald, in charge of CIA's Cuban Task Force trying to assassinate Castro, dies of reported heart attack.

1968:

January A. D. Bowie, Assisstant Dallas District Attorney prosecuting Ruby, dies of cancer.

April Hiram Ingram, Dallas Deputy Sheriff, close friend to Roger Craig, dies of sudden cancer.

May Dr. Nicholas Chetta, New Orleans coroner who ruled on death of Ferrie, of heart attack.

August Philip Geraci, friend of Perry Russo, told of Oswald/Shaw conversation, dies of electrocution.

1969:

^ Charles Mentesana, who filmed rifle other than Mannlicher-Carcano being taken from Depository, dies of heart attack.

January Henry Delaune, brother-in-law to coroner Chetta, is murdered.

January 10 Eddy Raymond (Buddy) Walthers, Dallas Deputy Sheriff involved in Depository search, is shot dead by Walter Cherry after Sherrif Bill Decker

sent him to question the escaped convict & suspected murderer. On November 22, 1963 Walthers was first police officer to question James T. Tague,

who was cut by flying debris in Dealey Plaza from a gunshot into the curb. Soon after he was seen by witnesses with two men, possibly CIA or FBI agents,

in a sequence of photos showing 1 man picking something up out of the grass & then putting it in his pocket. Walthers initially claimed a bullet was found

but denied it later. Jim Garrison tried to persuade Walthers to testify at the Clay Shaw trial. In June, 1968, Walthers reported a bombing outside his home,

possibly an attempt to warn him no to talk to investigators such as Garrison about the assassination.

April John Crawford, close friend to Ruby & Wesley Frazier, who gave ride to Oswald on 11/22/63, dies in private plane crash.

April Rev. Clyde Johnson, scheduled to testify about Clay Shaw/Oswald connection, is fatally shot.

1970:

^ George McGann, underworld figure connected to Ruby friends, wife Beverly, took film in Dealey Plaza, is murdered.

January Darrell W. Garner, arrested for shooting Warren Reynolds & released after alibi from Betty MacDonald, dies of drug overdose.

December Salvatore Granello, mobster linked to Hoffa, Trafficante, & Castro assassination plots, is murdered.

1971:

^ James Plumeri, mobster tied to mob-CIA assassination plots, is murdered.

March Clayton Fowler, Ruby's chief defense attorney, dies of unknown causes.

May 25 Charles Cabell, CIA deputy director connected to anti-Castro Cubans, collapses & dies after physical.

April 26 Winston Scott, CIA's station chief in Mexico, dies of reported heart attack after telling CIA director Richard Helms he wrote book called

"It Came Too Late." CIA's James Angleton confiscates manuscript. Son Michael Scott is told by CIA sources his father didn't die from natural

causes. Son gets father's manuscript back from the CIA but 150 pages-everything after 1947-is removed on grounds of national security.

1972:

October 16 Hale Boggs, House Majority Leader, WC member who began to publicly express doubts about findings, disappears & is presumed

dead in Alaskan plane crash.

^ Lucien Sarti dies.

1974:

^ Dave Yaras, close friend to Hoffa & Jack Ruby, is murdered.

August 14 Clay Shaw, prime suspect in Garrison case & CIA contact with Ferrie & E. Howard Hunt dies at age 61 under mysterious circumstances.

1975:

May 15 Roger Craig, former Dallas police officer who insisted the rifle found in the Book Depository was a 7.65 Mauser & not a Mannlicher-Carcano, dies

of gunshot.

He became pariah in Dallas Police Department (DPD) when he testified before the WC that Oswald get into the station wagon 15 minutes after the

shooting with 2 others, & was fired from the police department in 1967 after he was found to have discussed his evidence with a journalist.

He was a prosecution witness at the trial of Clay Shaw in New Orleans where he was shot at but the bullet only grazed his head.

He also survived a 1973 incident wherein a car forced his car off a mountain road, another shooting in 1974, & explosion of his car in 1975.

June 19 Sam Giancana, Chicago Mafia boss slated to testify about CIA-mob death plots to Church Committee the next day, is murdered

with multiple gunshots to head, mouth, & neck at age 67.

July 30 Jimmy Hoffa, union official and mobster, disappears & is presumed dead at age 62.

December General Earle Wheeler, contact between JFK & CIA, dies of unknown causes.

1976:

^ Ralph Paul, Ruby's business partner connected with crime figures, dies of heart attack.

April James Chaney, Dallas motorcycle officer riding to JFK's right rear who said JFK "struck in the face" with bullet, dies of heart attack.

April Dr. Charles Gregory, Governor John Connally's physician, dies of heart attack.

June William Harvey, CIA coordinator for CIA-mob assassination plans against Castro, dies of reported complications from heart surgery.

August 7 John Roselli, mobster who testified to Senate Committee & was to appear again, is found dismembered & stuffed in metal drum at age 71.

1977:

January William Pawley, former Brazilian Ambassador connected to Anti-Castro Cubans & crime figures dies by shotgun before his testimony before the HSCA.

March 29 George DeMohrenschildt, close friend to Oswald, CIA contract agent dies at age 66 of gunshot before scheduled HSCA testimony.

March Carlos Prio Soccaras, former Cuban President, money man for anti-Castro Cubans dies of gunshot before scheduled HSCA testimony.

March 29 Charles Nicoletti, a mobster connected with the CIA-Mafia assassination plots, dies at age 61 of gunshot before scheduled HSCA testimony.

May Lou Staples, Dallas radio Talk Show host who told friends he would break assassination case, dies of gunshot to head.

June Louis Nicholas, former No. 3 man in FBI, worked on JFK investigation, dies of heart attack before scheduled HSCA testimony.

August Alan Belmont, FBI official who testified to WC, dies after "long illness" before scheduled HSCA testimony.

August James Cadigan, FBI document expert who testified to WC, dies in home fall before scheduled HSCA testimony.

August Joseph C. Ayres, chief steward on JFK's Air Force One, dies in shooting accident.

August 1 Francis G. Powers, U-2 pilot downed over Russia in 1960, dies in helicopter crash at age 48 after "running out of fuel."

October Donald Kaylor, FBI fingerprint expert who examined prints found at the assassination scene, dies of heart attack before scheduled HSCA testimony.

October J.M. English, former head of FBI Forensic Sciences Laboratory where Oswald's rifle & pistol were tested, dies of heart attack before his

scheduled HSCA testimony.

November 9 William Sullivan, former No. 3 man in FBI, headed Division 5 counter-espionage & domestic intelligence, dies at age 65 in hunting accident

shortly after his preliminary meeting with HSCA.

1978:

May 8 David Morales, CIA agent to claimed to have helped murder President Kennedy, declaring to people "well, we took care of that son-of-a-bitch" & Bobby

Kennedy dies under mysterious circumstances at age 53, after telling friends he was afraid of his "own people," & before his testimony before the HSCA.

September 26 John Paisley, Deputy Director of Office of Strategic Research, is found dead in MD's Patuxent River attached to diving weights & shot in head.

Police investigators described it as "an execution-type murder." He was "about to blow the whistle" on JFK murder to HSCA according to

journalist Victor Marchetti.

As Charles points out john Newman also goes into this two-track Kennedy strategy. In Newman's JFK and Vietnam, Newman deftly describes the pressure the JCS was putting on JFK to intervene in Laos. He then says JFK developed a second track to go around the JCS, while fending off the bureacracy with quotes that were designed to appease them. Reading Newman's account I realized just how easy it would be for Chomsky, Cockburn and Co. to depict JFK as an ultra-Hawk, and to imply the unstated corrolary of their Kennedy writing: he was so war-like that it's not worth persuing the assassination.

...

Oh yeah, good point Nathaniel. That may be part of what happened with Ultimate Sacrifice in fact, as pertaining to Bobby Kennedy. He may have been writing contingency plans, or more hawkish plans for getting Castro as part of a two-track strategy where John and Bobby didn't plan on using the hawk track but the authors took it literally. Maybe.

...

So far I am loving the book. Especially the gentlemanly jabs at Sir Seymour of the Langley Set.

That's a pretty gentlemanly description right there. More gentlemanly than he deserves anyway.

Good day, Myra.

I had no idea my name was going to appear in this article.

Mel posted a number of times on alt.assassination.jfk, and then disappeared.

Do we "associate" anyone mentioned in an author's article as being a supporter of that author's research?

Of course not.

I'm more interested in whether folks think the fellow in the other image looks like Sirhan Sirhan.

Chow for now

PF

Oh sorry Peter. I was focusing too much on the "credit" comment and totally missed your point.

Ayton clearly had an agenda and did not let reality intrude. It was a shameless piece of... writing.

Myra,

Did you take a look at the image of the man?

Looks like Sirhan Sirhan to me.

Pitfalls are very deep when claiming so-and-so is so-and-so in pictures.

Years ago I thought I spotted Helms in film footage at the Ambassador Hotel.

That's why Shane's theory piqued my interest recently. Just received David Talbot's book,

Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years .... I understand he makes some comments

about Shane's theory.

PF

I did look at the image Peter.

And it does look like Sirhan.