Myra Bronstein

Indeed, John. With something like Op Big Lift in play during the weeks before the assassination, having say a flight out of Laos with operational teams on board would not have drawn much attention. In addition, with all the activity out of Fort Hood, Texas would have been a hive of activity and shuffling personnel around would have been easy. I have always wondered if one of the reasons Dallas was selected was because of this. James Well, Chicago and Tampa were selected too--supposedly. Ok, I bite, very interesting statement! Were did these operational teams landed? johnw I'm not sure if I'm answering the question you're asking John, but I was referring to the following: " Yet in November 1963, John and Robert Kennedy were able to keep two assassination plots against JFK that month out of the media at the time. The first was in Chicago, on November 2, 1963--when JFK had to cancel his trip and motorcade at the last minute--and the second was during JFK's long motorcade through Tampa, Florida on November 18, 1963, just four days before Dallas. Both the Chicago and Tampa plots had many similarities to Dallas, yet they were withheld from the news media and most investigators." http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0217-20.htm

Indeed, John. With something like Op Big Lift in play during the weeks before the assassination, having say a flight out of Laos with operational teams on board would not have drawn much attention. In addition, with all the activity out of Fort Hood, Texas would have been a hive of activity and shuffling personnel around would have been easy. I have always wondered if one of the reasons Dallas was selected was because of this. James Well, Chicago and Tampa were selected too--supposedly.

And LBJ made Bell Helicopters. Weren't they almost bankrupt before LBJ made them? Oh, Hughes. I'll have to look into that. Thanks Terry.

... Note the framing in the opening paragraph: "cold cases decades old, has turned many Americans into armchair sleuths seeking to “solve” the unexpected deaths of people like Princess Diana and Anna Nicole Smith." So JFK assassination researchers are lumped in with readers of trashy tabloids obsessing on Anna Nicole Smith. And they sneer at researchers into Princess Diana's murcer while they're at it. ... Warm up your sneer Gerald. "Mohamed al-Fayed brands British royals Diana's "murderers" By Anna Tomforde dpa German Press Agency Published: Friday March 2, 2007 By Anna Tomforde London- Harrods-owner Mohamed al-Fayed Friday described Britain's royal family as "gangsters and murderers" after winning a major legal victory in his campaign for a public investigation into the death of his late son, Dodi, with Princess Diana, in Paris in August 1997. In a move described as "sensational" by commentators, three High Court judges in London ruled that an official British inquest into the death of the couple should be heard by a jury of 12 men and women chosen from the public. They overturned an earlier decision by Judge Elizabeth Butler- Sloss, the deputy royal coroner, that she should sit without a jury during proceedings expected to start in May. ... Al-Fayed, who owns the Harrods luxury department store and also the Ritz Hotel in Paris, from where Dodi and Diana set out before their fatal journey, has always maintained that the couple were killed by British "state agents" because Diana was expecting a "Muslim child" from his son. ... "Diana was the people's princess. The people must be allowed to hear all the evidence and then, and only then, decide how she died, why she died and who ordered her murder," said al-Fayed Friday. ... The decision is seen as a blow to the royal family who had hoped that the conspiracy theories would die down following a British police report that the crash was a "tragic accident."..." http://rawstory.com/news/dpa/Mohamed_al_Fa...y_03022007.html

Sure it's progressed: "Expert in Russian poisoning case is shot FBI joins investigation but officials think it's just local crime Pete Williams Justice correspondent WASHINGTON - FBI agents say they are assisting police in suburban Washington who are investigating the shooting of a Russian expert — a man who spoke out on "Dateline NBC" last weekend and strongly suggested that remnants of the KGB were responsible for the bizarre poisoning death of Alexander Litvinenko. The Russian expert, Paul Joyal, was shot Thursday night as he got out of his car in front of his house in Adelphi, Md. Investigators in Prince Georges County say a witness claims to have seen two men running away after the shooting. Joyal remains hospitalized with a gunshot wound to the midsection. Authorities have not said whether they've been able to talk to him. Joyal is a long-time consultant on security and Russian affairs. From 1980 to 1989, he was director of security for the Senate Intelligence Committee. On last weekend's "Dateline," he said of Litvenenko's death: "A message has been communicated to anyone who wants to speak out against the Kremlin: 'If you do, no matter who you are, where you are, we will find you and we will silence you — in the most horrible way possible.'" ... In an odd twist, another person who appeared on the "Dateline" broadcast died of a heart attack last month. Reporter Daniel McGrory of the Times of London, who has written about the Litvinenko case, died Feb. 20, before the "Dateline" segment was broadcast. He was 54. His family said he "died suddenly at home." ... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17424538 Kick. (Update flag didn't work.)

Sure it's progressed: "Expert in Russian poisoning case is shot FBI joins investigation but officials think it's just local crime Pete Williams Justice correspondent WASHINGTON - FBI agents say they are assisting police in suburban Washington who are investigating the shooting of a Russian expert — a man who spoke out on "Dateline NBC" last weekend and strongly suggested that remnants of the KGB were responsible for the bizarre poisoning death of Alexander Litvinenko. The Russian expert, Paul Joyal, was shot Thursday night as he got out of his car in front of his house in Adelphi, Md. Investigators in Prince Georges County say a witness claims to have seen two men running away after the shooting. Joyal remains hospitalized with a gunshot wound to the midsection. Authorities have not said whether they've been able to talk to him. Joyal is a long-time consultant on security and Russian affairs. From 1980 to 1989, he was director of security for the Senate Intelligence Committee. On last weekend's "Dateline," he said of Litvenenko's death: "A message has been communicated to anyone who wants to speak out against the Kremlin: 'If you do, no matter who you are, where you are, we will find you and we will silence you — in the most horrible way possible.'" ... In an odd twist, another person who appeared on the "Dateline" broadcast died of a heart attack last month. Reporter Daniel McGrory of the Times of London, who has written about the Litvinenko case, died Feb. 20, before the "Dateline" segment was broadcast. He was 54. His family said he "died suddenly at home." ... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17424538

Oh yeah. In the US we're constantly programmed to believe this country was built on democratic ideals. In fact it was built on twin pillars of: -Slavery. In spite of the Declaration of Independence claim that "All men are created equal." What a whopper of a lie. Guys in powdered wigs ranting about the horrors of taxation without representation and dumping tea into a harbor. Later generations owning slaves. -Denying the riff-raff the right to pick their president by concocting the Electoral College. I can't describe this any better than Gore Vidal (I can't describe anything better than Gore Vidal): "I happen to be something of a student of the American constitution --it was set up in order to avoid majority rule. The two things the founding fathers hated were majoritarian rule and monarchy. So they devised a republic in which only a very few white men of property could vote. Then, to make sure that we never had any democracy at work at the highest levels of governance, they created something called the electoral college, which can break any change that might upset them. We saw what happened in November 2000, when Albert Gore won the popular vote by 600,000, he actually won the electoral vote of Florida, but a lot of dismal things happened and denied him the election. So that's what happened there. So for us to talk about a democracy that we are going to translate into other lands is the height of hypocrisy and is simply foolish." http://www.counterpunch.org/vidal03142003.html -And as Gore says, the refusal to let anyone but white men vote. (Ok, I said "twin pillars" then listed three; so sue me.) Was any country ever built on a bigger foundation of hypocrisy?

Good overview. I'll add that there were higher powerS at work, spanning the "military industrial" complex that President Eisenhower warned about after waking up from his eight-year Rip Van-Winkle nap to hand the leash of a rabid dog to President Kennedy (yeah, I know Ike was sick a lot), after the heir apparent, Nixon, blew it in spite of Prescott's string-pulling. Industrial--First and foremost. At one level nascent war-profiteers/Johnson puppeteers Brown & Root/Halliburton and Bell Helicoptor. Also oil moguls HL Hunt & Sons and Clint Murchison and Sid Richardson (all from Texas). At a higher level bankers like Brown Bros Harriman (and JP Morgan--now JP Morgan Chase--still smarting over their failure to overthrow FDR?). At an even higher level the Rockefellers. Legal--The first level of defense for the Industrial faction. McCloy, who I knew nothing about before this thread, was a Harvard (Ivy League CIA) lawyer for the ruling class, head of the World Bank (ahem, a predecessor to Wolfowitz...). He does seem to have a helluva pedigree--purebred fascist. Ah prairie-xxxx, I'll just say it; he was a Nazi. Banking--And money laundering. Especially laundering. McCloy was president of the Rockefeller's Chase Manhattan Bank. http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...K%20Assass.html " McCloy had long been involved in the murky world of espionage, intrigue and Nazis. He spent the decade of the 1930s working out of Paris. Much of his time was spent on a law case stemming from German sabotage in World War I. His investigation took him to Berlin, where he shared a box with Hitler at the 1936 Olympics. He was in contact with Rudolph Hess before the Nazi leader made a mysterious flight to England in 1941....When JFK moved to lower the oil depletion allowance, he incurred the displeasure of John McCloy, whose clients' profits would be trimmed. Hoover, Dulles and McCloy did not belong to the Kennedy fan club. When the president was shot, Hoover controlled the field investigation, and Dulles and McCloy helped mold the final verdict of the Warren Commission." Then there's Prescott Bush and his laundering activities for the Nazis via Union Bank. Intelligence--The covert enforcement/assassination branch of the Industrial faction, including friends of Prescott like the treasonous Dulles Bros, and comprised of the NSA/CIA/individual military branches. The co-second level of defense, along with the Military. Propaganda--CIA Mockingbirds in the media. Were there actual PR firms involved? Military--The overt enforcement branch of the Industrial faction via Joint Chiefs (?) who were still fuming over the President's rejection of Operation Northwoods and dumping of Chairman Lemnitzer. The co-second level of defense, along with the CIA/Mafia. Others in this thread are discussing the specific individuals possibly involved (like John "the Constitution is just a scrap of paper to me" McCloy). http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccloyJ.htm "As John D. Rockefeller Jr. told his personal lawyer, Thomas M. Debevoise, "McCloy knows so many people in government circles... that he might be in the way to get information in various quarters about the matter without seeking it, or revealing his hand." Contractors--Hired or duped hit-men/muscle including mobsters and (as Stan noted, and Larry Hancock wrote about in "Someone Would Have Talked") misguided gullible (my terms, not Larry's) anti-Castro Cubans. Congressional--The front-men for the Industrial fascists. Among them Lyndon Johnson who never would have given up his Majority Leader position if he didn't know he would quickly advance beyond VP, and good ol' boy "Winkin'" Albert Thomas (both from Texas). Organizational 1/National-International--Council on Foreign Relations. "From 1954 to 1970, [McCloy] was chairman of the prestigious Council on Foreign Relations in New York, to be succeeded by David Rockefeller, who had worked closely with him at the Chase Bank. McCloy had a long association with the Rockefeller family, going back to his early Harvard days when he taught the young Rockefeller brothers how to sail. He was also a member of the Draper Committee, formed in 1958 by Eisenhower." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._McCloy "The earliest origin of the Council stemmed from a working fellowship of distinguished scholars, tasked to brief President Woodrow Wilson [who was supposedly the first president to extensively use propaganda, and was supposedly admired by Harry (Pendergast puppet/bomb-dropper/CIA creator/World Bank inventor/original Cold Warrier) Truman (the buck really does stop there)] about options for the postwar world when Germany was defeated. Through 1917-18, this academic band, a prominent member of whom was Wilson's closest adviser Edward M. House, as well as Walter Lippmann, gathered discreetly at 155th Street and Broadway in New York City, to assemble the strategy for the postwar world. This band of scholars then travelled to the Paris Peace Conference, 1919...The Americans who subsequently returned from the conference became drawn to a discreet club of New York financiers and international lawyers who had organized previously in June 1918 and was headed by Elihu Root; this select group called itself the Council on Foreign Relations. They joined this group and the Council was formally established in New York on July 29, 1921, with 108 founding members, including Elihu Root as a leading member and John W. Davis, the personal attorney for J. P. Morgan, as its founding president. Other luminaries included John Foster Dulles, Herbert Lehman, Henry Stimson, Averell Harriman and the Rockefeller family's public relations expert, Ivy Lee. The Council initially had strong connections to the Morgan interests, such as the lawyer, Paul Cravath, whose pre-eminent New York law firm (later named Cravath, Swaine & Moore) represented Morgan businesses; and a Morgan partner, Russell Leffingwell, later becoming its first chairman. Over time, however, the locus of power shifted inexorably to the Rockefeller family." Organizational 2/Texas epicenter--Texas & the 8F klan. Texas was of course the nation-state that served as the ideal incubator for evil. "As the historian, Robert A. Caro has pointed out in Lyndon Johnson: The Path to Power: "Texans were elected on December 7, 1931, not only to the Speakership of the House but to the chairmanship of five of its most influential committees, Lyndon Johnson's first day in the Capitol was the day Texas came to power in it - a power that the state was to hold, with only the briefest interruptions, for more than thirty years." http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgroup8F.htm "The assassination of John F. Kennedy brought an end to this proposal to bring an end to the oil depletion allowance. The Suite 8F Group also did very well out of the escalation of the Vietnam War. They formed a new company called RMK-BRJ to obtain these contracts. This included Halliburton who took over Brown & Root in 1962. These contracts included building jet runways, dredging channels for ships, hospitals, prisons, communications facilities, and building American bases from Da Nang to Saigon. RMK-BRJ did 97% of the construction work in Vietnam. The other 3% went to local Vietnamese contractors. Between 1965 and 1972 Brown & Root (Halliburton) alone obtained revenues of $380 million from its work in Vietnam. ... Another company associated with the Suite 8F Group also did well out of the Vietnam War. Bell Helicopter Corporation began producing the UH-1. It could climb 2,000 feet per minute and could fly at 125 miles per hour for about three hours. It could carry nine fully equipped soldiers and a crew of four. By 1969 Bell Helicopter Corporation was selling nearly $600 million worth of helicopters to the United States Military. According to Robert Bryce: "Vietnam made Bell Helicopters". " Alright, just a first stab at a first draft. Many more drafts needed.

I must be out of phase. Was "Big Lift" (if true) meant to deal with possible uprising in Europe or in the US?

Thanks for the offer but as Andy points out it is not necessary yet. However, it might be needed if Les Albiston carries out his threat to sue the forum. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9029 People are just queuing up to sue you John. Well, thanks everyone for the input. I just wanted to propose it.

I pretty much said it in the Topic fields. Would the mods be open to accepting donations to help defray the cost of running this forum? Ideally it would accept paypal, so it'd be easy to donate.

Thank you Jack. And thank you to Rich, who I don't actually know. They now have a msg that the forum is active again. Does anyone know for sure if it's true? I never received a reply in the past when I tried to register. Myra...are you were using the new forum address and not the old one? Click on: http://www.jfkresearch.com/forum3/index.php You should be able to read all posted topics. You will not be able to respond to CERTAIN TOPICS unless you are a paid member. Rich's site is party supported by an annual "donation" from researchers who desire full membership. Exemptions are available for students and retirees upon valid request. If you have a problem joining, let me know and I will inform Rich. Because of medical problems, Rich is largely confined to a wheel chair nowadays, and running his website is his main therapy. Jack Thank you so much for your help Jack.... I think you probably helped a lot. I now have full member access. Brag.

Only recently I came across a newspaper account from 1966 in which Schlesinger called for a new investigation of the assassination. Richard Goodwin did as well. Both supported Bobby in 68. I suspect Talbot's book will get into Bobby's feelings about the Warren Commission and the assassination in general, and state that Bobby, under the influence of Schlesinger, Goodwin, and Mankiewicz, planned on re-investigating the case, if elected. I'm seriously looking forward to Talbot's book. Between his creation of Salon, the best journalism site on the web, and his apparent dedication to truth about President Kennedy, he's making a mighty fine impression.

Thank you Jack. And thank you to Rich, who I don't actually know. They now have a msg that the forum is active again. Does anyone know for sure if it's true? I never received a reply in the past when I tried to register.

It's good to consider alternative explanations so that I don't get tunnel vision, given my certainty that the CIA was in charge. If nothing else I shouldn't downplay the role of military "intelligence" in the murder. But, Jim, how do you reconcile your thoughts with the evidence that seems to point to the CIA like a flashing neon sign? Like the fact that the mayor of Dallas (Earle?) was the brother of (Charles) Cabell--the Deputy Director of the CIA who was fired by the President. And the many photos of CIA thugs (or twins) in Dealey Plaza (and the Ambassador Hotel in 1968): http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP/ (Hey, it moved.) http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/6169006.stm

_____________________ Great info in this thread. The truth is out there and is emerging. Dawn I was just about to post this exact sentiment. Thanks Stan. I knew about the Krock article but not about either of the RFK blurbs you posted. Great work. And now I have yet another book to read: One Hell of a Gamble. The conflicting forecasts of CIA vs Military perps is confusing though. Could the explanation be as simple as the gradual emergence of knowledge about the enemy(ies) within, or as complex as misdirection from one of the two conflicting sources?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/28/washingt...IMYF3HYXWYMFHlg "By DOUGLAS MARTIN Published: February 28, 2007 Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr., the historian whose more than 20 books shaped discussions for two generations about America’s past, and who himself was a provocative, unabashedly liberal partisan, most notably in serving in the Kennedy White House, died last night in Manhattan. He was 89. The cause was a heart attack, said Mr. Schlesinger’s son Stephen. He died at New York Downtown Hospital after being stricken in a restaurant. Twice awarded the Pulitzer Prize and the National Book Award, Mr. Schlesinger exhaustively examined the administrations of two prominent presidents, Andrew Jackson and Franklin Delano Roosevelt, against a vast background of regional and economic rivalries. He strongly argued that strong individuals like Jackson and Roosevelt could bend history. The notes he took for President John F. Kennedy to use in writing his own history, became, after the president’s assassination, grist for Mr. Schlesinger’s own “A Thousand Days: John F. Kennedy in the White House,” winner of both the Pulitzer and a National Book Award in 1966. His 1978 book on the president’s brother, “Robert Kennedy and His Times,” lauded the subject as the most politically creative man of his time, but acknowledged that Robert had played a larger role in trying to overthrow Castro than the author had acknowledged in “A Thousand Days.” Mr. Schlesinger worked on both brothers’ presidential campaigns, and some critics suggested he had trouble separating history from sentiment. Gore Vidal called “A Thousand Days” a political novel, and many noted that the book ignored the president’s sexual wanderings. Others were unhappy he told so much, particularly taking the unusual step of claiming that the president was unhappy with his secretary of state, Dean Rusk. ..." Long article. Just a brief excerpt above. It's NYTimes, so read it while it's free.

Um, care to share a link?

Well yeah, Spartacus is the authoritative site on JFK and more. But the existence of a few good sites doesn't mean that we needn't fight internet propaganda. Just like the existence of a few good books like "Someone Would Have Talked" and "Plausible Denial" doesn't mean we needn't fight propaganda (hi Bugliosi!) in the publishing world. Wiki has a lot of traffic and is wrongly considered "authoritative" by the deluded demographic. If they're gonna continue their right-wing ways we can at least try to change it and/or document it in this public forum if they refuse to be objective.

http://www.ifilm.com/video/2826077?ns=1

This is a great project John(s). Though I'm confused. John G. are you still looking for volunteers or are you doing the pages you listed on your own? I'm eager to take a shot at this. I have had one experience trying to get the propaganda on Hugo Chavez changed, and as a result I admit that I'm skeptical that they'll let us dilute their propaganda. But we still gotta try. Hm, perhaps we could keep building on this thread by posting the updates we submit, then the short and long term results. In addition to having copies of what we submit, as John S. advised, we'd have a journal of sorts. So for better or worse trends over time should become obvious. Go to the JFK related articles and change it as you see fit for better accuracy/ I wonder if that's the best approach. That could result in 20 people covering one topic and 0 covering another. Also, if my incredibly brilliant journal idea is implemented (the phrase "cold day in hell" comes to mind) then it'd be harder to maintain with the swarm approach.

This is a great project John(s). Though I'm confused. John G. are you still looking for volunteers or are you doing the pages you listed on your own? I'm eager to take a shot at this. I have had one experience trying to get the propaganda on Hugo Chavez changed, and as a result I admit that I'm skeptical that they'll let us dilute their propaganda. But we still gotta try. Hm, perhaps we could keep building on this thread by posting the updates we submit, then the short and long term results. In addition to having copies of what we submit, as John S. advised, we'd have a journal of sorts. So for better or worse trends over time should become obvious.

Thanks for that timeline URL John. I've got so much timeline material accumulated that it's getting out of control. And I want to esp recommend one timeline that's already listed in the first post in this thread. But it's so excellent that it warrants another mention: - Ira David Wood III – http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chronol.pdf. It's a keeper. Just excellent. It was a lotta lotta work and it shows.

Myra, I've studied Jim Braden pretty closely, probably more than anybody else, and since he's still alive, I'm anxious to interview him if I can. I not only don't see any evidence that he's a lacky for the Hunts, I don't believe he ever knew or met any of them. While he was in the oil business, and was in Dallas, he didn't visit the Hunt offices with his pals, Morgan Brown, et al., but instead, checked in with the parole office in Dallas on the morning of the assassination. Braden was certainly a player, he was perifial, and just got caught in the post-assassination drag net. If you can show me how he's a lacky for the Hunts, I'd be open to a convincer. BK I'll see if I can find evidence BK. In fact that's an area of research I should be more focused on. Proving (or otherwise) such a direct link to the Hunt klan would be huge, IMO, since I care about (as we often say here) who paid for the bullets as opposed to who fired the--many many--bullets (from many many guns). However, I have a hard time believing that a known criminal exiting the Dal-Tex building immediately after the assassination of our President was just in a building in which shots were fired by coincidence. So whether or not he was a Hunt lacky, I don't consider his presence in that locale to be peripheral. He just stopped by to find a phone he said? Oh puh-leeze. I really can't concur with you on that. He may well have been one of the shooters. Well, back to the Hunt/Braden (Brading) link... I'm on the case. Myra, Jim Braden is not a shooter, never shot anyone in his life, never arrested for any violent crime ever, probably didn't even know how to shoot. Whoever shot JFK was a real pro. Braden was conman, embezzeler, oil wildcatter, womenizer, golfer and New Orleans resident in the summer of '63. He was not a shooter. There may be a Hunt/Braden link other than via Morgan Brown. If so I'd like to see it. I'd also like to know his address and phone number so I could give him a call and maybe stop by and chat before he kicks off. I'd also like to know why Duncan MacRae thinks there's a resembalance between the photos he's posted and if he knows who the person is (people are)? BK Are you at all interested in addressing the issue of this, "perifial" [sic] player being at the scene of the crime BK? Do you still contend he was peripheral? When you state that he "just got caught in the post-assassination drag net," are you saying his presence in the plaza when the President was being murdered was coincidental?

Myra, I've studied Jim Braden pretty closely, probably more than anybody else, and since he's still alive, I'm anxious to interview him if I can. I not only don't see any evidence that he's a lacky for the Hunts, I don't believe he ever knew or met any of them. While he was in the oil business, and was in Dallas, he didn't visit the Hunt offices with his pals, Morgan Brown, et al., but instead, checked in with the parole office in Dallas on the morning of the assassination. Braden was certainly a player, he was perifial, and just got caught in the post-assassination drag net. If you can show me how he's a lacky for the Hunts, I'd be open to a convincer. BK I'll see if I can find evidence BK. In fact that's an area of research I should be more focused on. Proving (or otherwise) such a direct link to the Hunt klan would be huge, IMO, since I care about (as we often say here) who paid for the bullets as opposed to who fired the--many many--bullets (from many many guns). However, I have a hard time believing that a known criminal exiting the Dal-Tex building immediately after the assassination of our President was just in a building in which shots were fired by coincidence. So whether or not he was a Hunt lacky, I don't consider his presence in that locale to be peripheral. He just stopped by to find a phone he said? Oh puh-leeze. I really can't concur with you on that. He may well have been one of the shooters. Well, back to the Hunt/Braden (Brading) link... I'm on the case.