Myra Bronstein

That context really helps Paul, thank you. I hadn't seen that whole sequence of articles before.

The Arthur Krock article, Oct 3, '63 warning of the CIA overthrow the gov't:

"Among the views attributed to United States officials on the scene, including one described as a "very high American official who has spent much of his life in the service of democracy" are the following:

The C. I. A.'s growth was "likened to a malignancy" which the "very high Official was not sure even the White House could control "any longer." "If the United States ever experiences [an attempt at a coup to overthrow the Government] it will come from the C. I. A. and not the Pentagon."The agency"represents a tremendous power and total unaccountability to anyone."

http://www.jfklancer.com/Krock.html

Thank you, Peter. To say that the CIA did it on its own and not as part of a policy designed or co-ordinated with one of the groups listed above is juvenile and idiotic, in my opinion.

...

Pat, it sure would facilitate communication if you would bother to read a post before responding. The question posed was:

"So was the CIA involved or not?"

Not "Did the CIA act alone in murdering President Kennedy."

I was answering the question posed, not the question in your head.

I rather think we're being desensitized to the possibility, or likelyhood, that the conveniently Rethuglican governor of SD will appoint a replacement, GOP, senator. The mockingbirds have blown right past reporting on the Senator's condition, and is already telling us what will happen next. So when it happens it won't spook the herd?

"Sen. Tim Johnson, D-South Dakota, underwent brain surgery early today at George Washington University Hospital after suffering stroke-like symptoms, two Democratic sources familiar with his condition told CNN. Should Johnson not be able to complete his term, which ends in 2008, South Dakota Gov. Mike Rounds, a Republican, could appoint his replacement -- which could shift the balance of power in the Senate."

http://www.cnn.com/

Ah, watching history unfold. It's much like watching history in retrospect.

How would you expect them to have reported the story differently if they weren’t “in on it”?

I would think that they could refrain from talking about the senator's replacement while he was in surgery. They were in way to much of a hurry to write him off. Perhaps they could focus on the man's health and prognosis, at least for the first day, before they brush him aside.

(And just so there's no confusion, I didn't use the term "in on it.")

...

I believe Johnson is in his late 50s? If so, he has to be one unlucky guy... and I think that really is all there is to it. The diagnosis itself rules out foul play on the basis that not even the CIA could replicate a congenital disorder. The only conspiratorial spin that could now be levelled is that the doctors are lying about the diagnosis.

...

Thanks Greg, I was hoping you'd weigh in on this.

If the CIA was involved at all, in any way, in the Kennedy murder, it was not taking orders from, or acting in the exclusive interests of, or beholden to, or doing the bidding of, or reduced to a parity with, or in any way junior to:

• Texas oil men

• Texas politicians

• The Vice President of the United States

• Pro-Castro forces

• Anti-Castro forces

• Cubans

• Castro

• The Mafia, or any part thereof

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

Oh hell yes and twernt no "rouge" elements. Twas CIA all the way.

It's astounding that such a circumstance could even exist in the continuously heralded "greatest country in the world" - that the national upset over the mind-boggling ineptitude concerning the prosecution of this bloody mess over the last few years - and the culmination of that repulsiveness which was made plain in the recent election and formed into a demand by citizens for a cessation of the madness - could all possibly be overturned and negated by the governor of South Dakota? We have allowed too much pure crap to be written into our laws. If the state elected a Democrat to represent them - he should be replaced by a Democrat. He's a governor - not "Lord of All He Surveys". To allow a situation where one man from a small state can repudiate the expressed will of the entire nation over a technicality is completely ludicrous - it's not sane.

Really good point JL.

There are so many provisions to bypass the people's will...

The website of Mohamed Al Fayed:

http://www.alfayed.com/in%20memory.aspx

Thank you Michael. I hadn't seen that site. I'm just now opening up to what Mr Fayed has been saying for years.

The media coverage of the Stephens Report was based virtually exclusively on rebutting the claims made by Mohamed Al Fayed that the execution of Diana had been carried out by MI6 on the orders of the royal family. It ignored the much more serious claims that have been made by Noel Botham in his book, The Murder of Princess Diana. Botham claims that Diana was killed by the CIA on behalf of the arms industry. He argues that Hillary Clinton asked Diana to front-up the campaign against land-mines. This would have enabled Bill Clinton to agree to the ban. This nearly worked as Diane’s high-profile campaign made it politically acceptable for Clinton to do this. Soon after she was murdered Clinton changed his mind and began supporting the use of land-mines. This of course would explain why the CIA was bugging Diana’s phone. It also explains why MI6 and the French Intelligence Services would have worked together to cover-up the crime. I don’t actually believe this theory but I find it more convincing than it being an assassination ordered by Prince Philip.

Fascinating John. Just a theory I know, but the arms industry is always a prime suspect given their likely culpability with the deaths of President Kennedy, Senator Kennedy, Dr King, John Lennon, etc. This exact motive was one of the ones I listed in an earlier post on the subject.

So Larry, are you willing to view a lineup?

You've probably seen those websites "Familar Faces in Dealey Plaza," 1 and 2. Some with James Richard's photos. Some of them show people who could be Ted Shackley and David Morales:

http://www.jfkresearch.com/eaglesham/page4.jpg

http://www.jfkresearch.com/eaglesham/page5.jpg

Do you have an opinion on who the individuals in the pix are?

Thanks again.

Hi Myra, the short answer is no I don't think he was - for several reasons. First, there are surveillance records which pretty clearly show that he was trying to get out from under the FBI just before the assassination and that effort (referred to as "Roselli's run" in the book) succeeded and put him in Vegas - when next found immediately after the assassination he is in Vegas at his favorite hotel.

I feel the reason for this move may have been a last minute contact with Jack Ruby, Ruby's appearance in Vegas at the same time Roselli would have arrived was documented in several reports but the WC managed to avoid inserting it into Ruby's official time line. We do know that a call from Roslli's hotel on Sunday triggered the move to get Belli to defend Ruby (with a cover that the contact and funds were to be cut out through Early Ruby) and I suspect that came from Roselli himself - Belli's partner said he knew the caller and it was somebody he had known from Havana and casino contacts there.

Roselli's key role seems to have been handling the Ruby end and some other support activities through his crime contacts; as he super sharp manager there was no need nor reason for him to be in Dallas to do that and he certainly would not have been part of the tactical plot - the thought that he was scheduled to be a shooter at his age and with his lack of skill or practice just doens't wash.

One of the open issues for research that the book does list is an effort to obtain the physical FBI surveillance reports on Roselli for the months immediately before the assassination. If they are available I have not been able to locate them and they could help a lot; clearly from the records we have he was under surveillance on a daily baisis with his comings and goings tracked by FBI agents in LA and Vegas. aAnd the FBI knew about his CIA contacts and Cuban activties - also missing on the Roselli surveillance are any reports at all from the Miami office. Anther key in tieing Roselli into things would have been more background work on Alex Gruber who was most likely a cut out used to get money to Ruby in Dallas.

So....can't say for sure he was not in Dallas but what we know at this point does not confirm that he was while his presence in Vegas right before and right after is confirmed.

-- and you didn't miss it in the book...I don't think I put in a firm conclusion one way or the other.... Larry

Thank you Larry! I'm very interested in Roselli's actions, so I'm glad he's such a focus of your book.

I rather think we're being desensitized to the possibility, or likelyhood, that the conveniently Rethuglican governor of SD will appoint a replacement, GOP, senator. The mockingbirds have blown right past reporting on the Senator's condition, and is already telling us what will happen next. So when it happens it won't spook the herd?

"Sen. Tim Johnson, D-South Dakota, underwent brain surgery early today at George Washington University Hospital after suffering stroke-like symptoms, two Democratic sources familiar with his condition told CNN. Should Johnson not be able to complete his term, which ends in 2008, South Dakota Gov. Mike Rounds, a Republican, could appoint his replacement -- which could shift the balance of power in the Senate."

http://www.cnn.com/

Ah, watching history unfold. It's much like watching history in retrospect.

Ok, so ding dong a Hunt is gone. Enough with the eulogy for that thug.

I'm hazy on which Hunt sons were behind the "wanted for treason" flyer/ad in Dallas on Nov 22, '63.

I think Nelson was one, was Lamar the other one?

Can anyone cite sources?

Lookin' more likely they were engaged, boosting that as a motive.

"Dodi shown buying Di a ring

13/12/2006 21:37 - (SA)

Paris - An exclusive jeweller released a video on Wednesday which it said showed Dodi Al-Fayed picking up an engagement ring for Diana, Princess of Wales, just hours before both died in their 1997 Paris car crash.

In a letter to AFP, which obtained a copy of the video, the jewellery company Repossi said it was making the images available after receiving authorisation from Mohamed Al-Fayed, Dodi's wealthy father who has long insisted darker motives were behind the car accident.

Repossi said it had not previously released the surveillance video on the advice of its lawyers, but did not elaborate.

...

Repossi on Tuesday issued a statement saying Dodi Al-Fayed had inspected engagement rings in its Monaco branch earlier August 1997 and had "wanted the ring to be ready by August 30, 1997, at the latest".

It said "Dodi Al-Fayed went to the Repossi boutique on the Place Vendome to collect the engagement ring, which came from the 'Say Yes' collection, to give it to Princess Diana".

It said that, as well as the security video, it had proof of the purchase in the form of a receipt. Both pieces of evidence had been given to legal authorities who investigated the subsequent car crash, the jeweller's said.

The French probe concluded that the Ritz driver was to blame for the accident because he was drunk, high on prescription drugs and driving too fast.

Mohamed Al-Fayed claims Diana and his son were killed on the orders of the British establishment to prevent them marrying. "

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,...2044490,00.html

FROM MYRA:

"...Those were the words composed by Sara Jane Moore just before her failed assassination attempt on President Gerald Ford on September 22, 1975. Ford had survived another failed assassination attempt by one Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme a mere seventeen days earlier."

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Sara%20Jane%20Moore

But Fromm's gun wasn't loaded--weird:

"Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme

...Witness testimony of the incident varies. Lyn was very calm, "Easy boys, I'm still." One witness said Lyn had said, "It wasn't loaded anyway." That testimony was withheld from the trial."

However...

"Sara Jane Moore

...At the tender age of 42, she embraced the so-called "counter-culture" way of life and went underground. Apparently she didn't go too deeply underground. The FBI managed to dig her up and in their infinite wisdom, decided she would be a prime candidate to gather information about the Patty Hearst kidnapping and the Symbionese Liberation Army.

Poor Sara. I guess she wasn't that good of an undercover agent. She was quickly found out by her friends in the underground circles and ostracized.

What's a poor girl gotta do to win her friends back and get a little self-esteem? How `bout shooting the President?

As President Ford was leaving the St. Francis Hotel in San Francisco, Sara Jane Moore was about forty feet away. She pulled out her .38 caliber Smith & Wesson and took aim.

Fortunately for President Ford, a bystander in the crowd by the name of Oliver Sipple saw what was about to happen and grabbed Moore's arm just as she fired. Instead of hitting its intended target, the bullet ricocheted off a wall and slightly wounded a nearby cab driver.

She was quickly apprehended and brought to trial. At the proceedings, she never once tried to claim her innocence. As a matter of fact, she had this to say.

"There comes a point when the only way you can make a statement is to pick up a gun."

Sara Jane Moore received a life sentence. In 1979, she managed to escape prison but it was short lived. She was apprehended the next day and returned to prison."

___________________________

Myra,

I've long thought that those attempts ought to be scrutinized with all the zeal given to the JFK assassination. And I'm not kidding, though it's easy for me to say. Think about it (though I suspect you would agree): simply because no one got killed, specifically in this instance President Ford, we dismiss it because we don't want to think about it. I vividly remember those times.

Quickly, it became business as usual within days or even hours ("oh, those nuts, those wackos"...sound familiar?). The perpertrators knew that, counted on it and themselves went about their business with a second go 'round. They moved quickly to dispatch another Lone Nut but this time someone made sure the LN had a loaded weapon (the Squeaky mission wasn't a bad effort under the circumstances and influence).

Oh, how the One-World Insiders must certainly lament what might have been! Agnew had been set up and cashiered during the furor over Our Fuhrer and became a footnote to that period in history where, sans Watergate, l'affaire Spiro would have been treated as the major scandal it actually was. Mr. Standard Oil was queued. Collective breaths were baited. Can you say "Executive Order?"

And they never quit.

JG

Well, I guess I gotta ask eventually. Do you think Charles Manson was part of something bigger, i.e., MKUltra kind of mind control? Or is it just a coincidence that Squeaky Fromme was gunning (if not bulleting) for Ford?

Larry,

Do you think that John Roselli was in Dealey Plaza on Nov 22, '63?

I'm sorry if you gave your viewpoint in the book and I spaced it. You have a lot of material on Roselli, and I didn't read the book in a linear fashion.

Thanks.

Myra

I didn't know about all the films in existence. I don't know who Couch is. But I wanted to mention another thing about that film: It shows how the grassy knoll looked right after the Assassination. If you compare it to the Moorman polaroid, you'll see it wasn't pitch dark like the Moorman photo suggests. The Moorman photo in my opinion, was altered. A lot of it was blacked out.

Kathleen Collins

I'm curious about the Moorman photo Kathleen. Is the darkness of it the only reason you're suspicious of it, or is there more?

Thank you for your comment, I hadn't noticed all the details.

But is it established 100% that this is taken by Couch? I have a copy named Couch, lasting 22 seconds, showing the NFV - logo in the down-right corner. It ends showing a cop standing beside his motorcycle besides the steps up to the knoll. (Somewhere in that vicinity). Not that it has anything to do with it, but also just out of curiosity I remember I heard Jim Darnell had a motion-picture camera. Also that Mrs. Beck - story. Yet I am sure there are many stories about missing footage, and I probably have heard just a fraction of them.

I believe that the Mrs. Beck story was a false lead. There is more to that story. I try to gave you a break down of the films.

Malcolm Couch:

{WFAA-TV ABC} In Cam 3 of the presidential motorcade on Main Stree approaching Houston Street.

The front of the TSBD with the crowd on the north side of Elm Street as Cam 3 turns the corner of Houston and Elm

immediately following the shooting.

Photographers from CAM 1 and CAM 2 and other photographers on the grassy knoll with the Newsmans on the ground with

the umbrella man. Officer Haygood approaching the north curb of Elm Street with Officer Hargis running to the police

to the police cycle south of Elm Street as CAM 3 continues down Elm Street.

Police officer with his revolver drawn on the south side of Elm Street.

Members of the crowd present. Brehm. Babushka Lady, Hill, Moorman, Summers and Tague with sweeping view to

the overpass.

Photographers on the grassy knoll with the Newsmans still on the ground.

Police officer haygood trying to jump his motorcycle over the curb on the north side of Elm Street. Photographers

Weigman and Cancellare running to catch CAM1.

From the arcade of the crowd on the north side of Elm Street.

From Houston and Elm of the crowd on the north side of Elm Street.

Taken from a car driving on Elm Street of the crowd on the north side of Elm Street.

On rhw 6th floor of the TSBD of several police officers looking outside.

From the center of the plaza of the TSBD. The zoom lens is on the 6th floor window as Couch pans

down to the grassy knoll then to the corner of houston and Elm and then pack to the overpass as the Executive train

is moving on the overpass.

Footage of the arcade with several people inside.

WFAA commentator shows the rifle and telescopice sight which is similar to Oswald rifle lying in the

plaza grass with a demonstration of the bolt action.

Footage from the grassy knoll of the ceter area of the plaza.

views of the cupola, the arcade and Zapruder's position during the assassination

James Darnell

Approximately one minute after the last shot was fired, of the Elm Street activity on foot

aftered departing CAM 3

In the parking lot behind the grassy knoll.

In front of the TSBD with an arrest of possible suspect.

Inside the press roon of WBAP-TV located in the Old County Court House Building

with a witness being interviewed.

Gary Mack is the expert on the photographic evidence.

Sorry for any typo's which are due to a medical problem.

hope this helps

johnw

There are differing viewpoints on Gary Mack's credibility. Everyone should decide for themselves of course, but I don't assume anything he says is gospel.

Being one of those 'strange people" who tend to entertain seriously the idea that John Lennon was a [unbeknownst to him, and the erstwhile American people] casualty of the Reagan Years ie Nicaragua,...

Precisely Robert. Poppy "Wars R Us" Bush coming into power as VP and a "grossly famous" anti war activist is murdered by the brother of a known Bush associate.

FAYED, MOHAMMED (SHEIK)

Sources: FBI 124-10135-10123; FBI 100-32965-306, pp. 2, 6, 28; NW 381-2, 6, 28; Dallas Morning News, Wed., 6/23/99, p. 13-A

Mary's

Comments: Oil businessman from Kuwait. Was entertained at dinner by George and Jeanne deMohrenschildt in Haiti in June 1964 while official guest of Haitian Government. It was reported (by a CIA informant ?) that Alexandra deMohrenschildt Gibson, daughter of George deMohrenschildt, while visiting her father in Haiti in December 1964 without her husband, Don, was dating Mohammed Fayed. Fayed purchased Harrods in London in early 1980s. (Fayed's son, Dodi, was killed in an automobile accident in Paris on August 31, 1997 that also killed English Princess Dianna.) Mohammed Fayed repeatedly applied for British citizenship but was denied each time. The last time he applied was Tues., 6/22/99. That time, he won permission to challenge the government's decision refusing him British citizenship. In 1999, Fayed was 66 years old.....

I would like to know what Mary Ferrell would have to say about recent developments in the Diana controversy....

I read a JFK related book that Fayed was thgought to be associated with Egyptian intelligence in the old day's anybody heard that?

Not me.

Mr Fayed is having the understandable reaction to whitewash of the Diana "investigation." I hope he keeps fighting.

"December 13 2006 at 11:44PM

By Jeremy Pelofsky

Washington - The father of Princess Diana's companion on Wednesday called "outrageous" a forthcoming report that said the couple's deaths were the result of a tragic car accident rather than a murder plot.

Mohamed al Fayed, the father of Diana's lover Dodi al Fayed and owner of the famed Harrod's department store in London, also questioned whether the investigator who headed the inquiry, Sir John Stevens, was blackmailed into ruling out foul play.

"It's shocking. It's completely outrageous that a leading Scotland Yard officer can come up with such an unbelievable judgment," Al Fayed said in an interview with NBC's Today show.

...

Al Fayed said his son had bought an engagement ring for Diana and that she had told him hours before the crash that she was pregnant. He also accused the British government of involvement in the plot.

Stevens is "being definitely blackmailed to say exactly what the British intelligence want him to say", Al Fayed said. Without citing the source of the information, he said that six months ago British intelligence agents stole Stevens' computer.

"I'm sure they found something very devastating for him and used what they have, information, to blackmail him," he said.

Al Fayed has charged that his son and Diana were murdered by British secret services because their relationship was embarrassing the royal household."

There we have it. All just an overgrown fender bender. Nothing to see here move along.

Exhibit A:

" Wednesday, December 13

POSTED: 11:13 p.m. EST, December 13, 2006

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sen. Tim Johnson of South Dakota was undergoing brain surgery Wednesday night at George Washington University Hospital after being hospitalized earlier in the day due to stroke-like symptoms, two Democratic sources familiar with his condition told CNN.

Johnson, 59, was taken to the hospital Wednesday morning after he appeared to suffer stroke-like symptoms, although a spokeswoman for the senator said subsequent evaluation showed he did not suffer a stroke or a heart attack. Staffers told CNN Johnson was conscious when he was transported to the hospital."

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file.../w162040S94.DTL

"Democrats won a 51-49 majority in the November election. South Dakota's governor, who would appoint any temporary replacement, is a Republican."

...

If the Senate is split 50-50, the vice president breaks ties. That is Republican Dick Cheney at present."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061213/ap_on_go_co/johnson

Exhibit B:

"He said, "Did you want to pull off the perfect murder?" I said, "How would that be, Dave?" He said, "Well, you would need - he had a tendency to get a chalkboard or piece of paper and he began to write down these chemical equations which I don't know if they were accurate or truthful or not--C-6, H-12, you know, and all these other letters and I don't know if they even work. He said, "Now get this. What this does is you either ingest or inject it." He says, "if you ingest it over a period of time, it does damage and if you inject it, it will do it rather quickly. He said the person then dies and he says the chemicals will break down in the system. He says, "What does he die of?" "He dies of an aneurysm in the brain." I said, "what is an aneurysm, Dave?"

And Dave said, "That's where you have an artery and it explodes and fills the brain. It's weak wall in the artery. It causes the weak wall. I said it would show up in the autopsy. He (Dave) said, "No, after 72 hours, the chemical will have broken down and it would appear to be normal unless you have it injected and they would find a hole for an injection" "If it was ingested", he said, "it would come out as an aneurysm. And he says the person would look like he dies of natural causes." I said to Russo, "isn't that something." "On his death certificate", Perry said, "died of stroke brought on by aneurysm of the brain.

" Flooding the brain, the cranial wall, you know, the chamber" "His death", I asked Russo, "happened not long before it hit the papers that he was involved in the Garrison Case, right?" "Yeah", Russo said, "and so Garrison then quickly called Dr. Cheda, who was a Coroner and asked for a second autopsy. They went through elaborate toxicology tests that were state of the art in 1963. Not exactly the state of the art in 1993", Perry said. "So they did another autopsy. And it didn't show anything. So officially, he dies of natural causes."

http://www.jfklancer.com/Perry4.html

I think the tie in with President Kenendy's murder, and the general focus of this forum, is obvious.

...

Whether we recognize the rationales for this or not, various parties paid a lot of attention to Diana, particularly just prior to her demise, it seems. Knowing this, and all the contradictory blather contained in the numerous so-called inquiries into the circumstances of her death, one grows less sanguine about an "accident" verdict in this matter.

The following is from one of my favourite blogs at: http://rigint.blogspot.com/

...

That is a great link Robert, thanks. Very interesting blogs.

Has anyone read Daniel Schorr's books, Clearing the Air and Staying Tuned: A Life in Journalism? I have just ordered copies as I think he might have something to tell us about the assassination of JFK and Watergate.

It seems that Schorr remained one of the few journalists who constantly tried to overcome the pressures of Operation Mockingbird.

In 1953, Schorr was recruited by Ed Murrow to work for CBS News as its diplomatic correspondent in Washington. He was one of the few journalists to stand up to Joseph McCarthy. As a result he was sent to head the CBS bureau in Moscow. Two years later Schorr carried out the first ever television interview with Nikita Khrushchev. Later that year Schorr was arrested by the police and deported from the Soviet Union.

In 1960, Schorr was assigned to Bonn as CBS bureau chief for Germany and Eastern Europe. He covered the Berlin crisis and the building of the Berlin Wall and reported events from all the Warsaw Pact countries. In 1964 Schorr was nearly sacked by Bill Paley after reporting that Barry Goldwater was linked with a group of German right-wing military men.

Schorr returned to the United States in 1966 and reported on domestic issues. This included the presidencies of Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon and the civil rights movement.

In 1972 Schorr began working full-time on the Watergate Scandal. Schorr's reports on the Senate Watergate hearings earned him three Emmys. In June 1973, Bill Paley made attempts to censor Schorr's criticism of Richard Nixon. It was later discovered that Schorr had been added to Nixon's "enemies list" and as a result was investigated by the FBI.

In February of 1976, the House of Representatives, voted to suppress the final report of its intelligence investigating committee. Schorr, who had been given an advance copy, leaked the information to Village Voice. This led to his suspension by CBS and an investigation by the House Ethics Committee in which Schorr was threatened with jail for contempt of Congress if he did not disclose his source. Schorr refused and eventually the committee decided 6 to 5 against a contempt citation.

Schorr left CBS and wrote an account of this Watergate story called Clearing the Air. Apparently, in the book he wrote about the links between the JFK assassination and Watergate.

In 1979, Schorr was asked by Ted Turner to help create the Cable News Network. He serving in Washington as its senior correspondent until 1985, when he left in a dispute over an effort to limit his editorial independence. Since then, Schorr has worked primarily for NPR.

Schorr published his autobiography, Staying Tuned: A Life in Journalism, in 2001. He also writes a regular column for the Christian Science Monitor. He is still on the ball, for example, here is an article he wrote about our friend Karl Rove on 15th July, 2005.

<span style='color:blue'>Let me remind you that the underlying issue in the Karl Rove controversy is not a leak, but a war and how America was misled into that war.

In 2002 President Bush, having decided to invade Iraq, was casting about for a casus belli. The weapons of mass destruction theme was not yielding very much until a dubious Italian intelligence report, based partly on forged documents (it later turned out), provided reason to speculate that Iraq might be trying to buy so-called yellowcake uranium from the African country of Niger. It did not seem to matter that the CIA advised that the Italian information was "fragmentary and lacked detail."

Prodded by Vice President Dick Cheney and in the hope of getting more conclusive information, the CIA sent Joseph Wilson, an old Africa hand, to Niger to investigate. Mr. Wilson spent eight days talking to everyone in Niger possibly involved and came back to report no sign of an Iraqi bid for uranium and, anyway, Niger's uranium was committed to other countries for many years to come.

No news is bad news for an administration gearing up for war. Ignoring Wilson's report, Cheney talked on TV about Iraq's nuclear potential. And the president himself, in his 2003 State of the Union address no less, pronounced: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Wilson declined to maintain a discreet silence. He told various people that the president was at least mistaken, at most telling an untruth. Finally Wilson directly challenged the administration with a July 6, 2003 New York Times op-ed headlined, "What I didn't find in Africa," and making clear his belief that the president deliberately manipulated intelligence in order to justify an invasion.

One can imagine the fury in the White House. We now know from the e-mail traffic of Time's correspondent Matt Cooper that five days after the op-ed appeared, he advised his bureau chief of a super secret conversation with Karl Rove who alerted him to the fact that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA and may have recommended him for the Niger assignment. Three days later, Bob Novak's column appeared giving Wilson's wife's name, Valerie Plame, and the fact she was an undercover CIA officer. Mr. Novak has yet to say, in public, whether Mr. Rove was his source. Enough is known to surmise that the leaks of Rove, or others deputized by him, amounted to retaliation against someone who had the temerity to challenge the president of the United States when he was striving to find some plausible reason for invading Iraq.

The role of Rove and associates added up to a small incident in a very large scandal - the effort to delude America into thinking it faced a threat dire enough to justify a war.</span>

Yes! I mean yes great subject. Not yes I've read his book. But I will now. I've admired him for years. I'll never forget his radio essay (NPR?) after the 2000 coup. He was won of the few who called it what it was.

I assume his integrity hurt his career a lot.

Great thread. One of the good guys for once.

...

It is to say that because we cannot imagine a reason for anyone wishing her dead, ipso facto, nobody could have wished her dead.

That's a leap too far, particularly in light of subsequent revelations about various intelligence agencies and their respective levels of interest in Diana. Whether we recognize the rationales for this or not, various parties paid a lot of attention to Diana, particularly just prior to her demise, it seems. Knowing this, and all the contradictory blather contained in the numerous so-called inquiries into the circumstances of her death, one grows less sanguine about an "accident" verdict in this matter.

...

A welcome influx of logic.

Myra,

Stephen and Myra:

I usually agree with you Steve, and have not ever read a post by you that was mean spirited, until this morning. I agree completely with Myra about Diana. I also believe JFK Jr. was murdered. I suspect there was alot more to the murder of John Lennon was as well, that MDC was a MC.

I don't know what Dodi's uncle was involved in, admittedly, but I have seen Diana in several intereviews and if her caring about the ill, homeless and landmines was all an act then she deserved an academy award.

Dawn

Thank you Dawn. I appreciate your input.

DID YOU ACTUALLY READ MY POST BEFORE YOU CAME OVER ALL SPLENETIC?TO ASSASINATE SOMEBODY THAT FAMOUS, GIVEN THE WORLDWIDE SPECULATION THAT WILL INEVITABLY FOLLOW, YOU NEED ONE HELL OF A GOOD REASON. NOW TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND ENLIGHTEN ME AS TO WHAT THAT REASON WAS. CAN YOU REALLY NOT SEE THE HUGH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JFKs MURDER, WITH ALL ITS DEEP POLITICAL MOTIVES, AND THE TAWDRY, ALMOST SELF ORDAINED END OF THIS WOMAN?

Sadly I did read your post. Gee, reasons for murdering Diana? Again, where to begin?

She was speaking out against the effect of war, specifically land mines. What happens when famous people speak out against war? That's what got John Lennon killed. Oops, gotta be careful when I mention famous people lest I be accused of blind worship.

She embarassed the royal family big time. Their treatment of her, esp ol' Chuck, made it obvious that they're robotic and emotionless and not remotely life-like, nor likable. They appeared to be the jerks they are. She provided a point of unfavorable contrast to them, what with being a feeling sentient warm-blooded mammal.

She was likely going to marry a Muslim. Oh the horror. Not a blue blood pip pip cheerio Brit. An outsider. Shudder.

She was talking more and more about leaving Britian to live in the US. Imagine what a slap in the face that would have been to the royal family and the UK.

As long as she was alive Chuck couldn't marry the rotweiler. How could he ever realize his fondest wish of being a tampax?

The fam probaly didn't want her influencing the heirs any more than she had already. Good lord, she was already taking them to amusement parks and on water slides. How very undignified. How very un-British.

She was going to be the mother of the king since tampax boy will likely be too old and have to step aside, or not last long. Now that's power. Mother of the king of England. Diana.

There are countless reasons. Quite bizarre that I have to spoon feed each one of them to you. I know, none of these reasons will be good enough for you however, 'cause you really don't want to think about it. So I wasted my breath after taking that deep one you recommended.

INFLUENCE AND POWER IS NOT A BY-PRODUCT OF FAME.

Wow, and here I thought your logic couldn't be any more warped. You've topped yourself... so to speak.

BOBBY K, AND MLK WERE PROBABLY KILLED FOR THOSE SAME DEEP POLITICAL REASONS THAT PROVED TO BE JFKs DOWNFALL. I TAKE IT YOU HAVE SOME EVIDENCE FOR CLAIMING THAT THE CIA WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDERS OF JKjr, AND MALCOLM X, OR IS THIS JUST MORE ENDLESS SPECULATION ON YOUR BEHALF, AS TO YOUR ASSERTION THAT JOHN LENNON WAS KILLED BY THESE "EVIL" FORCES IT SIMPLY FLIES IN THE FACE OF ALL AVAILABLE EVIDENCE, AND BETRAYS YOUR SLIGHTLY PARANOID TURN OF MIND, LENNON WAS TRAGICALLY MURDERED BY AN OBSESSED, PSYCHOTIC, FORMER FAN, IT REALY IS THAT SIMPLE.

Yes, that's right Stephen. I have signed notarized statements from every one of the perps for every government murder ever committed. 'Cause that's exactly how these things work. They always confess on the record. Gimme a break.

MYRA, SIMPLE PUBLIC RELATION EXERCISES IN HER WAR WITH BIG EARS. BY THE TIME SHE GOT ROUND TO HUGGING HIV/AIDS VICTIMS IT WAS NOT A DEADLY MYSTERIOUS DISEASE AT ALL, THE POSSIBLE MEANS OF CONTAMINATION HAD BEEN UNDERSTOOD FOR TEN YEARS, AND THE IDEA THAT SHE WAS EXPOSING HERSELF TO ANY RISK IS LAUGHABLE. ALL PUT ON FOR THE MEDIA MY DEAR.

Ah, by that "logic" a famous person cannot take on a cause without being accused of doing it only for PR purposes. Then they're all crass, according to you... "my dear"? Or just Diana?

And since you're demanding evidence, give me some evidence that she just took on her causes for PR. C'mon. I'm only asking of you what you asked of me.

Oh, and Stephen. Best to lose the caps. If you really have a reasonable argument you needn't SCREAM.

Rich dilitantes like Diana, who spend most of their pampered lives stepping from high performance Limo's into lear jets- so as not to be contaminated by the proles-often die in this manner, think of it as a kind of not so instant Karma. Quite frankly, to discuss this essentially worthless Woman, as if she were a figure of substance- rather than a posing, self serving, spitefull toff- borders on the willfully delusional.

I'm by no means an expert on Diana. Was she an "essentially worthless Woman?" I cut and pasted some items from a paper by Sue Nieboer. Is Nieboer accurate?

Quoting Sue Nieboer:

In 1986, the fairytale began to turn into a nightmare as the royal couple began having marital problems. There were rumors of an affair between Prince Charles and his old girlfriend, Camille Parker Bowles. Diana suffered from an eating disorder and depression. Instead of giving in to the depression, Diana turned toward philanthropy to make her life meaningful. She used her fame and the media to her advantage, raising money for dozens of causes, including treatment and research for cancer, the homeless, leprosy, and the English National Ballot. She was especially "passionate about children and AIDS charities. 'The image of her holding hands with someone with HIV/AIDS.shattered the stigma, prejudice and fear that surrounded HIV/AIDS in the early days' says Andrew Parkis of the Diana, Princess of Wales Memorial Fund. Diana became a powerful philanthropic force.

On Aug 28, 1996, her divorce from Prince Charles was final. Her Royal Highness Princess Diana became Diana Princess of Wales. As an outcast of the Windsor dynasty, she began to concentrate on the six charities closest to her heart, Centerpoint, a London group that aids homeless youth, the Leprosy Mission, various cancer benefits, AIDS and the International Red Cross (on land mine issues). Freed from her royal ties, Diana was willing to take on a more political cause, to bring about a ban on global land mines and provide funds for those injured by them.

And:

Diana's philanthropic legacy has inspired many to give to charitable causes. At the time of her death, thousands of Americans responded to raise more than two million dollars in charitable gifts. The Diana, Princess of Wales Memorial Fund (U.S.) was created as a way of continuing Diana's work in the United States. To date the fund has contributed $4 million to forty-two youth driven groups (The Diana, Princess U.S. 2003). Diana made philanthropic work glamorous again, especially among the rich and famous.

Not only did she raise millions of dollars for many causes benefiting the sick and the poor, but she also gave of her time and herself. Many examples exist of Diana's personal visits to homeless shelters and leprosy wards, of her physically touching those with HIV/AIDS or sitting with children dying of cancer. She was known to take her sons, Princes William and Harry, with her to poverty-stricken areas of South London to meet homeless people camped in cardboard shelters. She ministered to the children and adult victims of unretrieved landmines.

Thank you for diluting the nonesense and name-calling with facts Michael.