Evan Marshall

Hello Evan,

What are some of your thoughts on the evidence and how the case was handled?

- lee

where to start?

people in DP should have been seperated-told not to talk to each other and id'd with picture id and statements taken

area should have been secured-TBD especially

limo should have been impounded and processed by DPD

Dr's should have been interviewed once they knew Kennedy was dead-seperately

autopsy should have been done in Dallas-my gosh how much better off we'd be whether it showed a single or multiple gunman-atleast we'd know for sure.

LHO had no motive and never expressed one

doing the "perp walk" got him killed

he should have been moved in the middle of the night w/o warning

DPD should have handled it like a homicide and not been buffaloed by the Fed's

Will Fitz was no dummy-no big city homcide supervisor is/was

Tippit should have been examined under a microscope-every OIS shooting I was ever involved in whether the fatality was an officer or citizen was done down to the last detail.

the only scratches the surface-people on the knoll should have been detained if not arrested.

I've worked drug dealer murders where more people were brought in and "put on the boards" (detained) than in JFK's murder.

I keep reading hopeful, sometimes silly posts about the possibility one of the conspirators had a change of heart and some where a confession with evidence exists.

I'm just a retired Homicide Sgt, but over the years have either worked with (in training assignments) or associated with retired members of the various clandestine services-I've become good friends with several AND NOT ONE OF THEM has ever expressed the slightest remorse over involvement in areas such as the death of Che' or Allende and they never will.

Additionally, I've known others with rather detailed info re:some notorious incidents and again they'll go to their graves with the info.

Do I believe that folks such as Phillips, Morales, Harvey, Werbell, Nonte, and Jack Cannon played a role-you bet. Do I expect we'll ever find proof from them that they did-nah.

Evan Marshall

www.stoppingpower.net

"Most human truths are fiction to God."

Welcome to the Forum Evan, As far as I am concerned you speak the plain, and obvious truth. We will have to figure this one out without a "deathbed confession" Regards, Steve.

Steve: I inherited several old Homicide cases and did solve some of them-I think it was possible to solve the case at the leadership level if not the shooter level-

I keep reading hopeful, sometimes silly posts about the possibility one of the conspirators had a change of heart and some where a confession with evidence exists.

I'm just a retired Homicide Sgt, but over the years have either worked with (in training assignments) or associated with retired members of the various clandestine services-I've become good friends with several AND NOT ONE OF THEM has ever expressed the slightest remorse over involvement in areas such as the death of Che' or Allende and they never will.

Additionally, I've known others with rather detailed info re:some notorious incidents and again they'll go to their graves with the info.

Do I believe that folks such as Phillips, Morales, Harvey, Werbell, Nonte, and Jack Cannon played a role-you bet. Do I expect we'll ever find proof from them that they did-nah.

Evan Marshall

www.stoppingpower.net

"Most human truths are fiction to God."

Welcome to the Forum Evan, As far as I am concerned you speak the plain, and obvious truth. We will have to figure this one out without a "deathbed confession" Regards, Steve.

Steve: I inherited several old Homicide cases and did solve some of them-I think it was possible to solve the case at the leadership level if not the shooter level-

Mr. AULT advised that he did not look toward the Texas School Book Depository at the time of the firing of the three shots and immediately thereafter because his attention was directed toward a policeman who got off his three-wheeler on Elm Street and ran toward a hedge to the left of the cement pavilion which is immediately north of Elm Street.

Weird.

why overcomplicate it-guys with the right creds and long guns could easily just disappear-all these super clandestine guns are difficult to use and impossible to explain away if dsicovered. A good bolt gun with a scope in the hands of some one in plain clothes or uniform could be explained away as part of security and then casually escape. Officialdom is still not exercised about people with secret service creds on the knoll.

ear and eye witnesses are often problimatical AND remember this was preWatergate-we were for the most part political virgins.

Lotsa secrets to hide...and many skeletons in the closets...Go girl...kick their asses....nobody will phuck...with Nancy Pelosi.

Nancy doesn't understand people like Porter Goss or John Negroponte-operator's of the 1st order. other folks I know-"The Katzenjammer Kids" operate in a whole different world than little Nancy and her friends-they may investigate but need to remember the old Hell's Angels Motto-"Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead."

"Most human truths are fiction to God"

I keep reading hopeful, sometimes silly posts about the possibility one of the conspirators had a change of heart and some where a confession with evidence exists.

I'm just a retired Homicide Sgt, but over the years have either worked with (in training assignments) or associated with retired members of the various clandestine services-I've become good friends with several AND NOT ONE OF THEM has ever expressed the slightest remorse over involvement in areas such as the death of Che' or Allende and they never will.

Additionally, I've known others with rather detailed info re:some notorious incidents and again they'll go to their graves with the info.

Do I believe that folks such as Phillips, Morales, Harvey, Werbell, Nonte, and Jack Cannon played a role-you bet. Do I expect we'll ever find proof from them that they did-nah.

Evan Marshall

www.stoppingpower.net

"Most human truths are fiction to God."

Welcome to the Forum Evan, As far as I am concerned you speak the plain, and obvious truth. We will have to figure this one out without a "deathbed confession" Regards, Steve.

Yes. Plus the fact that if someone will murder--they'll probably lie.

I just don't see plotters as fountains of truth.

actually, many of them probably have/had a "moral code" they strictly adhered to-skewed, of course, but I've met a number of killers I would trust my kids with and some Church people I wouldn't. In 20yrs in Detroit PD I only met a handful of truely evil people and sadly many of them had badges. Subsequent to that I've met a ton-many in Federal employment.

Greg - I can't recall who - but one of those present at the interrogations claimed Oswald had said Shelley gave him permission to leave. Even if this were true, Shelley had no authority to do so, and would have been acting under orders from Truly or Campbell. According to Don Willis, Shelley may have in fact, also left early. Google "The Employee Who Was Missing from the TSBD--William Shelley" for details.

All I could find was a (yawn!) thread from one of the alt.whatever.jfk newsgroups on this. I found some other Donald Willis stuff (e.g., "Fact After All: Tippit Shot With an Automatic"), but not that.

Duke - Well, it really doesn't matter what authority Shelley or anyone else did or didn't have, what matters most is what the person he told anything to perceived him as having. ... Even still, it would seem to have to be an incredible coincidence that the very guy that "they" wanted to get out of the building and would set up as the patsy was the first one not only whose name was taken down, but who was let loose ... as nobody after him was for at least ... what? Half an hour or 45 minutes?

Greg - I don't see it as coincidence. He was let go deliberately before anyone else.

Greg (later) - I've found my notes on this. It was Fritz who made the claim in testimony that Shelley gave him permission to leave. This however, was absent from his notes which only indicate he'd seen Shelley out the front, and that he left, because as you said, he thought there'd be no more work that day. This is from Holmes' testimony:

"And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about." And he wouldn't tell what happened then."

Compare Holmes' recall of what Oswald said with what was reported here in Australia:

"During the frantic search for the President's killer, police were posted at exits to the warehouse. Police said a man, whom they identified as Oswald, walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that 'I work here,' and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away, they said."

Well, Harry's little bit there sort of shoots the O-giving-fake-address thing, as well as him giving his info to a cop and being told he could leave. I have to admit, though, it did have the ring of truth to it!

Duke - Again, I take your points, and it gets hairy here ... and you're right, it does require Oswald to be a party in some way if the direction you're going is correct. The question is, in what way? I think it's fair to say that it was not as a witting patsy ... wittingly as a patsy, that is: I have difficulty imagining someone - anyone - going along with the plan that "you're going to get blamed, you have to run, you're probably going to get killed."

Greg - He certainly would not have been told he was going to be killed.

Duke - I likewise have difficulty imagining someone as reasonably intelligent as Lee Oswald thinking that his leaving TSBD after the shooting - assuming he knew (and how could he not?) that that's what spurred his having to go into action - thinking that his leaving would not cast suspicion on him.

Greg - A number of possibilities here... if he was completely uninvolved, why would he worry about leaving when he had permission and a solid alibi? More likely though, he was still acting as a decoy and was told he would either be arrested and that none of the evidence him would hold - or - that he would be flown out of the country. I doubt the first since in this scenario, he was the one who gave a false address. I also have trouble with him agreeing to leave the country (presumably permanently) as this would likely involve never seeing his kids again.

Ah, but we're no longer certain that he gave a false address, as true to form as that may have been, are we. That he knew something seems pretty apparent, if only from his statement - if I'm remembering correctly that this happened at all - that "it will all come out at my trial," or words to that effect. Of course, if it did, it no doubt redoubled people's concerns about what he'd say about them, and sealed his fate ... if it hadn't been sealed already.

I've read of some scenarios where Oz was supposed to have been an infiltrator of sorts - they "listen" pretty well, actually - in Dallas into the whole Fort Hood/Terrell Armory weapons thing. That would lend some sense to why he would have been set up as the patsy - a big "gotcha!" - and might even lend some credence to his getting into someone's car in DP and heading off to Oak Cliff: how could he refuse them? Like an undercover narc who's gotten into a big coke ring or something having to tag along for and even participate in killings to maintain the cartel's trust. But when all's said and done, I really can't imagine anything as to what did or even might have happened at TSBD with Oz after the shooting ... or after he knew there was a shooting. It's just unfathomable to me, I can't get into a dead man's head.

Greg - Those I believe were involved in the planning had strong local ties.

Duke - Interesting. To whom or what?

Greg - MIG with insiders in DPS intelligence units and media. Robert Morris and the whole Bircher crew and their associations with congressional committees and anti-Castro exile groups.

Well, I guess that "whole Bircher crew" could include the Roy Trulys of the world. You can't forget the Walker group either, tho' I suspect they really didn't have anything to do with it, but that only from Walker's own attitude about it, having people checking into things and so forth: it almost seemed as if he knew more than the WC did!

Have you ever read the testimony of Revilo Pendleton Oliver, "America's premier patriot and scholar?" If not, before you do, read his articles about the assassination first, particularly "Marxmanship in Dallas" and "The Aftermath of the Assassination." Actually, you can check out the website dedicated to his fond memory at revilo-oliver.com, which includes several recordings of his speeches. According to one site discussing his patriotism and scholarship,

This book, which is one of many that Oliver wrote during his long career as an academic at the University of Illinois, deals with his association with

the John Birch Society, an organization founded to fight Communism. Oliver was a founding member

of this patriotic organization and he not only edited their flagship publication, American Opinion, but also wrote numerous book reviews and articles. Oliver also spent many years traveling the Birch speaking circuit, trying desperately to persuade Americans of the dangers of Communism and the values of conservatism. Eventually, Oliver became disillusioned by the conservative movement and John Birch founder Robert Welch, and he turned his energies to what he perceived were the real issues in the struggle against Communism: Jews and the complete ignorance of the white race to recognize its greatness and destiny.

It would be gut-busting hilarious if he wasn't so god-awful serious. The man is Rush Limbaugh on steroids.

Greg - I have made an intense study of all statements/testimony regarding what went on in the TT, and have concluded that Oswald never had the weapon solely in his hands. I can expand on this if needed.

Yes, please do.

Additionally, it seems McDonald wasn't going to kill Oswald himself. Reporter Jim Ewell watched the arrest from the balcony and stated that he saw a cop train the barrell of a shotgun down through the tangle of bodies. Here's his account of it:

... Then there was a commotion. I stepped to the railing where I could look down onto this. Just about that time the house lights came up and Nick McDonald made his move on Oswald.

So I'm in a position looking down on where Oswald sat. not knowing who he was. Then I saw the fight that broke out. First, Nick was shouting, and then there was just a swarm of officers that came in. What I'm describing is what appeared to be a football play from above. John Toney remembered that

some officer screamed out that they were breaking his arm

. Another officer, Paul Bentley, the Chief Polygraph Examiner for the Dallas Police Department, who was well known to us all, came out of there with a broken ankle.

What I saw rather astounded me. Someone was trying to hold the barrel of a shotgun, or train the barrel of a shotgun down among the heads of these officers. I thought, "What's he going to do with the shotgun?" I didn't know what was going on, but this person was holding a shotgun; I did see that. And it all happened in a matter of seconds!

Yet every single cop failed to see a shotgun ... or to testify to seeing one anyway.

As you read those accounts, you'll probably come across Pinky Westbrook's anecdote - which may be the same as above (underlined) - about how (ha-ha) one of the officers' hands was cuffed, someone apparently mistaking it for Oswald's. How, I don't know, it's not like Lee was dressed like a cop or detective. Did it have a gun in it at some point? Nobody who testified before the WC mentioned this incident other than Westbrook.

I believe that it was either Thomas Hutson or C.T. Walker who also commented that someone wsa telling Oz to let go of the gun, and he'd responded "I can't" or "I'm trying," like he was unable to let loose of it.

Duke - I don't think it makes sense that McD would attempt to pass off the idea that LHO threatened him with a gun and then not shoot him while the weapon was in his hand. In other words, it's very difficult to prove - or, really, even suggest - self-defense after you've disarmed the perp ... and McD did do just that and handed the gun off to someone else; the threat was neutralized, no good cause for shooting.

It would seem the much easier approach given those facts would have been simply to shoot him, turn around and get the gun from someone, put it in the dead guy's hand and then say "he tried to shoot me." No, I think McD was just another "poor dumb cop" if anything.

Greg - Simpler, but problematic given the number of potential witnesses. McDonald, imo, tried to shove the pistol into Oswald's wasteband when he claimed he was patting him down. Oswald then grabbed Mcdonald's hand and part of the gun - then in seconds, he was covered in cops with a shotgun aimed at him. This is when he started yelling that he wasn't resisting - which is probably what saved him (at least temporarily).

Interesting scenario. I'm guessing this will be in the installment about officers' testimonies about the goings-on at the theater?

Duke - Maybe so ... but don't you think that someone would have to have a grudge or something against him? I mean, you don't just go killing fellow officer

Greg - I don't think it was a fellow officer who did it.

Duke - You either have to really want the guy dead, or at the very least consider him the absolute pits as a cop. You also would have to think very little of his family or otherwise - as they say the Mob does - "set them up" financially afterward. They would probably have to accept the whole deal for it to be credible, no?

Greg - I'll expand for clarity. The DPD was virtually in the service of the extreme right - many cops were in fact members of r-w groups themselves. He was expendable to those who killed him.

So, who killed him?

I retired from Detroit Homicide and let me assure you nothing effects a cop like the murder of another officer-frankly, I think Tippit was killed to "encourage" responding officers not to take Oswald alive. I participated in a number of searches for cop killers and arrest was always the last and least preferred option.

[David,

Good Afternoon.

I have always thought the single gunman-shooting feat was Impossible.

No body (including master marksman) have ever DUPLICATED it.

And the best passes where using the steel sights. The carcano was found with

The Telescopic sight fitted.

However lets assume that it was possible. The lone assassin must have not had a nerve in his body and ice water running through his veins if the official version is correct.

Shot 1:- missed everybody in the car and the vehicle also (This is the only shot were the shooter did not have a time constraint)

Shot 2 :- Wounds both men (most mortals BOTTLE would have gone after this shot)

Shot 3 :- The Fatal shot that defies physics.

Regards

Chris Brown.

another point that's always bothered me about LHO-he may have been a mediocre/lousy shot but he was a Marine when great emphasis was placed on rifle skills. He was a bright guy and certainly knew the MC was a piece of junk. If he was going to kill the President why not just steal a quality rifle?

evan marshall

www.stoppingpower.net

[David,

Good Afternoon.

I have always thought the single gunman-shooting feat was Impossible.

No body (including master marksman) have ever DUPLICATED it.

And the best passes where using the steel sights. The carcano was found with

The Telescopic sight fitted.

However lets assume that it was possible. The lone assassin must have not had a nerve in his body and ice water running through his veins if the official version is correct.

Shot 1:- missed everybody in the car and the vehicle also (This is the only shot were the shooter did not have a time constraint)

Shot 2 :- Wounds both men (most mortals BOTTLE would have gone after this shot)

Shot 3 :- The Fatal shot that defies physics.

Regards

Chris Brown.

another point that's always bothered me about LHO-he may have been a mediocre/lousy shot but he was a Marine when great emphasis was placed on rifle skills. He was a bright guy and certainly knew the MC was a piece of junk. If he was going to kill the President why not just steal a quality rifle?

evan marshall

www.stoppingpower.net

I keep reading hopeful, sometimes silly posts about the possibility one of the conspirators had a change of heart and some where a confession with evidence exists.

I'm just a retired Homicide Sgt, but over the years have either worked with (in training assignments) or associated with retired members of the various clandestine services-I've become good friends with several AND NOT ONE OF THEM has ever expressed the slightest remorse over involvement in areas such as the death of Che' or Allende and they never will.

Additionally, I've known others with rather detailed info re:some notorious incidents and again they'll go to their graves with the info.

Do I believe that folks such as Phillips, Morales, Harvey, Werbell, Nonte, and Jack Cannon played a role-you bet. Do I expect we'll ever find proof from them that they did-nah.

Evan Marshall

www.stoppingpower.net

"Most human truths are fiction to God."

Retired from the Homicide Section of the Detroit Police Dept in 1989 with the rank of Sgt-other assignments included: Crime Lab, Crime Scene Investigation, Tactical Unit, Dept Sniper, Training Sgt for the SWAT Team. Since retirement worked for several firms including Israel Military Industries and spent 5 yrs as a contract training specialist for Federal Agents who transport and secure weapons of mass destruction.

I have a BA in History and an MA in Criminal Justice currently own Marshall's Shooting Center-a gun shop and indoor range in Midland, Michigan. Want to join because I was a sophmore at BYU in Provo, Utah on 11-22-63 and from the very beginning it did not fit together-read the 26 volumes several times and the conflict between conclusions and evidence is even greater. Having been assigned to Detroit Homicide twice in my career it became obvious it was never properly investigated and as a police sniper, its obvious LHO didn't shoot anyone.

Married with 7 children and 32 grandchildren. I'm the coauthor of three best selling books on stopping power and have been a published writer in the firearms and law enforcement fields since the mid 70's.