Michael G. Smith
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Posts posted by Michael G. Smith
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12/29/06
Ford Told Reporter Friendship With Nixon Affected Pardon
Former President Ford once called himself Richard Nixon's only real friend.
Now audiotapes reveal that the friendship between the two former presidents was even closer than once thought, and that friendship played a role in Ford's decision to give Nixon a blanket pardon in the Watergate scandal.
These new tapes give insight into why Nixon chose Ford to be vice president and why Ford pardoned Nixon. They come on top of revelations Thursday that Ford was very much against the Iraq War even though he publicly defended it.
ABC's George Stephanopoulos spoke with Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward, who revealed Ford's true feelings about Iraq, about the former president's private personality versus his public one.
Woodward said he learned from Ford's private files and Nixon tapes that had not previously come to public attention that Ford and Nixon were extremely close friends.
A phone call from Nixon to Ford reveals the depth of their relationship.
Ford: Hello?
Nixon: Just wanted to express my appreciation for your note.
Ford: Anytime you want me to do anything under any circumstances. ... You give me a call.
Ford Stood by Nixon's Side
Most of the literature about Ford and Nixon suggests that when Nixon chose Ford to be his vice president, the two didn't know each other all that well -- Nixon made his choice based on the assumption that Ford was certain to get confirmed.
"That's what's in the historical record. That's what I thought quite frankly," Woodward said. "But then when you listen to these tapes. ... There's one moment where Nixon is almost begging Ford to go get support from Congress during Watergate. ... He literally says to Nixon, 'We will support you morning, noon and night.'"
Nixon: Tell the guys. ... To get off their ass and start fighting back.
Ford: You've got a hell of a lot of friends up here, both Republican and Democrat, and don't worry about anyone being sunshine soldiers or summer patriots.
Ford pardoned Nixon amid great controversy in 1974. At the time he said he did it to move the country forward, but Woodward believes friendship played a role, too.
"There was a personal element in pardoning Nixon. He felt he was lifting some sort of stigma," Woodward said.
In fact, that's exactly what Ford told Woodward in an interview.
"I looked upon him as my personal friend, and I always treasured our relationship," Ford said. "And I had no hesitancy about granting the pardon. ... I didn't want to see my real friend have the stigma."
Copyright � 2006 ABC News Internet Ventures
Gee, here I thought a president took an oath to uphold the constitution, not to help criminal pals avoid prison.
I hear you Myra! I liked the part where he said "I didnt want to see my friend have the stigma"?? Like he wasnt going to have that shadow [the whole Watergate affair] following him around for the rest of his life! All of the publicity everyone has been hearing about Ford, and what a great man he was all of his life, Ive yet to hear anything about what a skunk he was, especially during the WC! Just my opinion FWIW.
thanks-smitty
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Lee, Very interesting stuff. I take it that the 2nd "quote" you showed was the "anon" email you recieved? I have not read that book, but it sounds like its something I should do. Do you know of anyone else who has seen the "said" video? That would be something to check out, if possible. Personally, I have heard the theory that Greer did the shooting some time ago, but never put anything into it, until you brought this up. Sounds like he was "silenced" by the Sherrifs Dept. during the raid of his home. Raid for what, I wonder??
thanks-smitty
Hey Smitty.
I really enjoyed the book - however, I should preface my comments by saying - it's not for everyone. He goes into some detail with respect to secret societies, the new world order, etc. I was very intrigued by some stuff he related concerning the disc technology, in addition to some of his personal experiences - for example, with disc technology and with respect to things like the cable that was broadcasted [from the JCS?] the week before Nixon's impeachment ordering that any communications from the White House [TOP HAT] were to be ignored and referred. That appears to be public knowledge now - but at the time Cooper was revealing it, seems like it was still under wraps.
Anyway - I was curious about the film Cooper talks about. I have heard it was simply a bad production copy of the z-film, and not to be confused with the one discussed in that anonymous email. I tried to contact Bo Gritz about it - no response so far. He's another interesting individual. Anyway - Cooper appears to have been fairly paranoid - with good reason - since he appears to have been divulging some information that may have been sensitive or restricted - and took some heat for it over time - according to his book. His house could have been raided for any number of reasons - seems that Cooper was pretty outspoken.
On the Greer bit - trying to keep an open mind myself ['Survivor's Guilt' made an impact] -- until some of the unreleased footage / photos emerge. I would like to have had the opportunity to view even one of the seven? alleged films I have heard about. I still tend to lean towards either an individual on the stairs and one behind the fence for the fatal headshot - but there still exists the mystery [for me personally] as to whether or not there was more than one hit to Kennedy's head.
Aside - interesting connection for another Cooper [William and Gordon Cooper] with respect to disc technology and the assassination.
- lee
Lee, the book still sounds good, as any information on the disc tech. sounds good, but it seems like he was touching on quite a few different "hot topics" for that period of time. I guess you have to, as you said, take it for what it was at the time he wrote it. Ill have to start hunting around and see if I can find a copy for myself to read. I havent finished "Survivors Guilt" yet, but what I have read seems to be very good. I dont think its far off on JFK getting hit [from a few different positions] more than once on the head shot. From what I can recall, several people stated that they saw what appeared to be a left side [temple/forehead] wound. I have still left that open, as a real possibility. That shot could have come very easily from the south knoll [or similar] area. Any pictures, autopsy or other, ever show a clear picture of his "left" side. [from what I have seen anyway] Sorry for getting off base with your thread, I surely dont want this to turn into another "headshot" thread. Thanks for posting this, and I will see if i can find that book. If i find more than one, maybe I can list who has them, as others, Im sure, would like to read it also. Just my opinion, FWIW. thanks-smitty
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Found this little piece interesting. Cooper goes into some weird places in some of the material in the book - 'so it is what it is.' The intent here is not to open any can of worms about a Greer possible - however, for the hell of it, I will again post an anonymous email I received awhile back - I simply found these few pages interesting.
Pages 216 - 220, Behold a Pale Horse, Milton William Cooper, Light Technology Publishing, Sedona, AZ, 1991.
Cooper is deceased - here's an online bio.
http://www.hourofthetime.com/william.htm
A Short BiographyWilliam Cooper was reared in an Air Force family. As a child he lived in many different countries, graduating from Yamato High School in Japan. Since he has traveled through or lived in many different foreign countries Mr. Cooper has a world view much different than most Americans.
William served with the Strategic Air Command, United States Air Force. He held a secret clearance working on B-52 bombers, KC-135 refueling aircraft, and Minuteman missiles. William received his Honorable Discharge from the United States Air Force in 1965.
William joined the United States Navy fulfilling a dream previously frustrated by chronic motion sickness. He served aboard the submarine USS Tiru (SS-416), USS Tombigbee (AOG-11), Naval Support Activity Danang RVN, Naval Security and Intelligence Camp Carter RVN, Danang Harbor Patrol RVN, Dong Ha River Security Group RVN, USS Charles Berry (DE-1035), Headquarters Commander in Chief Pacific Fleet, USS Oriskany (CVA-34).
Cooper was a member of the Office of Naval Security and Intelligence serving as a Harbor and River Patrol Boat Captain at Danang and the Dong Ha River Security Group, Cua Viet, Republic of Vietnam. William Cooper was awarded several medals for his leadership and heroism during combat including two with "V" for Valor.
He served on the Intelligence Briefing Team for the Commander In Chief of the Pacific Fleet. William was the Petty Officer of the Watch and designated KL-47 SPECAT operator in the CINCPACFLT Command Center at Makalapa Hawaii. There he held a Top Secret, Q, SI, security clearance.
William Cooper achieved the rank of First Class Petty Officer, QM1, E-6 after only 8 years of Naval service, a difficult task in any branch of the United States military. William Cooper received an Honorable Discharge from the United States Navy on December 11, 1975.
William attended Long Beach City College where he picked up an Associate of Science Degree in Photography. He founded the Absolute Image Studio and Gallery of Fine Art Photography in Long Beach, California.
William held the position of Executive Director of Adelphi Business College, Pacific Coast Technical Institute, and National Technical College. Mr. Cooper was the National Marketing Coordinator for National Education and Software.
He produced several documentaries covering subjects such as the Kennedy assassination and secret black projects that have built flying disk shaped craft. William is an internationally acclaimed radio personality broadcasting the Hour Of The Time on WBCQ worldwide short-wave 7.415 MHz from 10 PM until 11 PM Eastern Standard Time (0300 to 0400 UTC) Monday through Thursday nights.
William Cooper is the author of Behold A Pale Horse. The book has become the best selling underground book of all time. It is read and promoted by word of mouth by People of all races, religions, and nationalities.
Mr. Cooper is a world class lecturer, one of the few other than superstars, monarchs, and Popes who have appeared at Wembly in London. William Cooper has lectured for 10 years in every State.
William Cooper, Trustee, has founded for Harvest Trust, the CAJI News Service, VERITAS national full size newspaper, The Intelligence Service, Harvest Publications, and has helped over 700 low power FM affiliate stations get equipped and on the air... including the station he manages as Trustee for the Independence Foundation Trust, 101.1 FM Eagar, Arizona, broadcasting to 7,000 people.
Under his leadership Harvest Trust ventured into the publishing trade. The first book under the Harvest Trust imprint was Oklahoma City: Day One by Michele Marie Moore... the definitive classic on the Oklahoma City bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building on April 19, 1995.
Shortly after the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah federal building Rush Limbaugh read a White House memo on the air during his broadcast which named William Cooper, "...the most dangerous radio host in America". Mr. Cooper considers William Clinton's pronouncement the greatest compliment that he has ever received.
William Cooper's FBI file, promulgated by the investigation required by his security clearances while in military service, was one of those unlawfully in possession of the White House in what has become known as, "Filegate". Shortly after this discovery President Clinton ordered all federal agencies to begin investigation, persecution, and prosecution of Mr. Cooper to shut him up.
After years of filing FOIA requests and researching the IRS William Cooper brought suit against the IRS in Federal District Court in Phoenix Arizona to force the IRS to produce proof of jurisdiction and delegation of authority which the IRS was unable to do. To short circuit Mr. Cooper's attempt to reveal the true nature of the criminal IRS, and to carry out the orders of the White House, the agency lied to a Grand Jury, not allowing William Cooper to testify, and secured indictments against Mr. Cooper and his wife Annie. This ploy successfully stopped Mr. Cooper from continuing his suit against the criminal IRS for fear of being arrested.
In 1998 VERITAS and Harvest Publications was sold to Hallmark Creative Corporation along with the copyright and all rights to all written material produced or ever to be produced by William Cooper including Behold A Pale Horse and Oklahoma City: Day one. Hallmark Creative Corporation has contracted to insure this material is always available to the public.
William Cooper continues to champion the cause of Truth and Freedom for all Peoples of all races, religions, and places of ancestral origin. William is Native American, English, Scotch, and Irish. He lives in Arizona. Formerly with his beautiful Chinese wife Annie, daughters, Dorothy (Pooh), little Allyson and their dogs, Sugarbear, and Crusher. In March of 1999 William Sent his family out of the United States for their security. He now lives and works alone with his two dogs, one rooster, and one chicken.
Update : Bill was killed by the Apache County Sherrifs Department during a raid on his home in November of 2001. He is now buried on a hill in Eagar, Arizona.
OK, I was quite shocked when I saw this video 3 yearsago, and have tried to put it out of my mind, though I
cannot do so. If a hoax, it was meticulously detailed,
and unlike any special effects film I had ever seen.
It was much clearer than the videos on the forum,
though I saw it on the computer of a rather shady
former acquaintance. It depicted the limo travelling
from the right side to the left side of the screen. It
slows down, the driver turns over his right shoulder,
extends his right arm with a wicked grin clearly
visible on his face, and fires into K.'s head, then
turns around. K's face is blown off in full detail,
with considerable ejecta out the back of his head, and
his body recoils backwards then bounces forward.
I was most surprised when I viewed the Zapruder film, because it correlates
pretty well, though with several frames possibly
removed and/or tampered with, and from the opposite
perspective (car travelling left to right), and not as
high resolution as the video I saw.
2
The fellow who had the video claimed he was related to
a former US Sntr, and he did believe it was real. Said
the reasons for the act boiled down to money, and that
it was also connected to the Nixon impeachment. Last
time I saw him was Fall '05. I seem to remember asking
for a copy at the time, and his refusing,though I
didn't press the issue.
I don't think it was the Zap. film inversed, because
it was much clearer, you got a very clear view of the
driver. It was very unnerving.
I did a search on the internet and the only person who
seemed to share the theory seemed a bit off kilter,
nonetheless, it seems within the realm of possibility.
3
I don't see an attachment for an image, perhaps you
forgot there? I would guess that the clip I saw was
sort of across, in front of the Limo, with the Limo
going right to left in relation to the filmer. From a
similar perspective to the bottom picture here, but
clearer and maybe closer-
As for other supposed other shooters, I wouldn't be
surprised if it was a well-run propaganda campaign and
cover-up. I just finished an abridged "Decline and
Fall of the Roman Empire," and I must say, it wouldn't
be the first time a head of state has been assasinated
by his guards, or a foul deed covered up.
Have you heard of anyone else who has seen the clip I
described? It was much clearer than the Z film (you
could see the smile on G.'s face- it looked like he
had no soul) I am wondering if anyone else has seen
it. It was so convincing-
Lee, Very interesting stuff. I take it that the 2nd "quote" you showed was the "anon" email you recieved? I have not read that book, but it sounds like its something I should do. Do you know of anyone else who has seen the "said" video? That would be something to check out, if possible. Personally, I have heard the theory that Greer did the shooting some time ago, but never put anything into it, until you brought this up. Sounds like he was "silenced" by the Sherrifs Dept. during the raid of his home. Raid for what, I wonder??
thanks-smitty
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And, until such time as you have studied the WC and:
1. The Adjusted Position
2. The Alteration of Survey Data
3. The multiple run-through's during the re-enactment
4. The multiple filming of the re-enactment from different angles and elevations
5. The jacked up rifle/filming position in the sixth floor window
And, until such time as you have studied the WC and: STOP THERE!
Any knowledgeable person who has read the WC - I assume you mean Warren Commission here - knows that it is full of
inaccuracies,halftruths and downright lies and would be better referred to as the Warren Omission.
If you are basing your 'research' on the dubious tissue-of-lies WC then I am afraid that you are not going to convince me or
any more knowledgeable persons of the veracity of your 'research'. IMO a copy of the the WC
deserves to be consigned to every WC across America and perhaps only there the WC may
serve a more useful purpose and, who knows, maybe even get to the bottom of the issue.
EBC
EBC, I have bought two sets of the complete 26 volumes almost a decade ago and have read nearly every volume completely through .... how far along are you in your set? As far as the points you listed above, I don't buy the WC's evidence, but instead I rely on the views from those key locations and when it comes to the road sign - it was not a factor. I have also logged several hundred hours in Dealey Plaza while taking photos from about every possible position with the exception of the alleged sniper's window. I have actually went into the middle of Elm Street to run test in between the light changes .... sometimes having traffic have to make a lane change to get around me because I didn't complete a task fast enough. I also took the time to shoot 360 degree panoramas so to have those views to work with upon my return home. I have taken several rides in the replica car while sitting in JFK's place while holding a video camera to my eye so to see what locations were visible and at what points - have you?
As far as a first shot(s) coming from the RR yard and passing through the road sign - I do not buy it for several reasons. One is that once a shot is fired from that loaction ... there were plenty of witnesses who would have their attention immediately drawn there. Gordon Arnold for instance never mentioned a shot coming from behind him until the President was at the kill spot. You are welcoome to go to Dealey Plaza and do as I did and report what you found ... I will look forward to hearing what ever information you bring back with you.
Bill Miller
Everyone is entitled to their opinion Bill. You are entitled, as am I, Lee, and Eugene. I may not be as "knowledgeable", but I am entitled to what I think. I dont need you to bust into a thread I started about this subject, and have you start trying to push people around. I respect what you have done, and what you know, with no disrespect intended. You dont see me busting into "anybodys", and I repeat "anybodys" thread, and disrespect them in any way, shape or form. I would expect the same professionalism from someone who has the "knowledge", and doesnt have to guess at "probables". Even if I had the knowledge, and experience, I surely wouldnt be boasting and bragging. I have a copy of the WC Report, [which to be honest, I havent read it completely] and I have been to Dealey Plaza and surrounding areas, and took lots and lots of pictures. That doesnt make me even close to being an expert. If you cant play nice, play somewhere else. After looking at the plat, it is very obvious, that "one" of the signs COULD have been hit from that angle, and it would also help explain the frontal hit for the throat shot. [if the plat is close to representing what did happen] Personally, it has never been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Gordon Arnold was even present that day, in that position, to give any statement, one way or another. Anyway, that is just MY opinion, and Im not trying to shove it down anyones throat.
FWIW-smitty
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BAH HUMBUG !! ... Well, that's my "worldview" on it anyway !
Just kidding .... Happy Holidays everybody ! .....
.... 
Thanks Dave, same to you, and everyone else here at the "forum". Have a Happy New Year too!
-smitty
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Hi all, I just wanted to wish you all here a Merry Christmas, or whatever anyone else might be celebrating at this time of year. It is really nice being able to join you all here, and be part of the "Forum". Celebrate, be careful, enjoy, and dont over do it! LOL!
thanks-smitty
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A few tidbits about Winston G. Lawson
Since I have reasons to believe that John J. McCloy may have been a conspirator I find it opportune that McCloy chaired the testimony of Winston Lawson, the man who designed the motorcade route.
5. I understand he is still alive and living in West Virginia.
Comments, please.
Jim Root
Lawson gave a fairly detailed interview on video which was shown on C-Span (I think in 2003). Unfortunately I did not record it. Lawson had some interesting things to say about Forrest Sorrels' role in planning the motorcade route. As I recall, the interview is part of the Sixth Floor Museum's oral history project. It would be interesting to see a transcript of that interview. I remember watching that interview and coming away with the thought that Sorrels was the prime mover in deciding the route. FWIW, this was Gerald Posner's conclusion also.
Here is a link to Vince Palamara's discussion in Chapter Four of SURVIVORS GUILT.
Thanks Raymond for the post on "Survivors Guilt". It goes into great detail about the S.S and what was done and by who. I havent finished it yet, but hope to shortly. Very good book to read if you are interested in the parts played by the S.S on the trip to Dallas and the motorcade. thanks -smitty
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Why did Diana say Eliot was a pseudonym of Angleton?
Jack
Jack, go to this link to see if one of these people can put you in touch with Diana so you can ask her yourself.
Jack, dont waste your time. Those psychic mediums arent the "best", as claimed. LOL! -smitty
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Seeing the movie "The Good Shephard", I was mindful of John LeCarre and his realistic accounts of Cold War Espionage. I know that this is not the substance of conspiracy, but I believe this movie deserves praise for its staunch depiction of the cold warrior in the early sixties and the stuff of which he was made.
Directed by Robert DeNiro, the movie offers, what may be the most realistic picture, of a Resident CIA Officer, Matt Damon, beginning from assignment as Resident in London during WWII, to case officer responsible for the Bay of Pigs Invasion. Matt Damon portrays an initially naive, coldly reserved, humorless, buttoned down Fraternity blue blood, drafted into pre-OSS Intelligence, who sacrifices all for the sake of his work, which is his country and the intelligence service.
The movie takes the audience from the polemic of WWII intelligence to the grey and liquid cold war, unveiling the duplicity and paranoia which feeds the services and its high priests, the residents, case officers, and handlers.
The realism is unparalleled. The picture is moralistically ambiguous, offered for the audience to decide for themselves whether there is a moral high ground, a right and wrong, in the protagonist's (Damon's) life and work. From the coldly calculating hawk to the most virulant leftist, the picture is neutral in its offering as a starkly real portait of the cold warrior for the eyes and mind to decide for themselves.
I found the movie fascinating and extremely realistic. Although not having the experience to critisize the realism, but from reading and research into cold war history, the movie appears the genuine article, and faithful to the times, possibly surpassing Mr. LeCarre in its realism. I highly recommend it.
I hope that this post is not taken as a degeneration into movie reviews. I felt that anyone who has read and researched this field would delight in this movie. It is not for everyone. I took my family, who found it boring for the most part, and couldn't understand the tradecraft. But for those who have reasearched and understand the history and tradecraft, the movie provides an object lesson into the psychological trauma which the services faced during the post WWII period and maybe an understanding of the distress they faced in their lives as a result of their decisions and actions.
If you are interested in cold war history and the history of the CIA this fim is a must see.
Thanks.
Pete, Thanks for the "review" ! I was hoping to see it this weekend if possible, one way or another. Im glad you posted your thoughts on it. Movies like that, I seem to get "lost" in, but hopefully, I can follow the trail this time! lol! thanks-smitty
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Hello Michael,
[They surely wouldnt be wearing an "Iowa Police" badge and try to represent a Dallas patrolman!] Anyone from the Dallas area, or surrounding areas, would probably know what an area badge looked like, or resembled. From most views, there didnt seem to be many people at that time who wasnt related, knew, or werent personal friends with someone from the Dallas PD. Im sure most people knew [maybe not exactly] what a Dallas PD badge looked like, or what it closely resembled.
Let me clarify a bit. The Iowa hat badge represents a common style of badge, I'm not saying the Hat Badge Man (HBM) is an Iowa officer.
These badges all are the same style or outline, that was the first step in ID'ing the HBM.
Now if we agree the style matches then we can find out what Departments used that style of Hat Badge in 1963 Texas.
It may be a Dept. Of Public Safety device for Highway Patrolmen's Hats.
You are correct that the parts need to match, i.e., hat badge-credentials-uniform-etc. That is why he is not DPD, because the Hat badge does not match the DPD Hat Devices (badges).
The Iowa badge was just a guide to get everyone looking for pictures of uniformed individuals with that emblem design on their caps. If we couldn't define what the badge looked like then we could never tell where he worked.
Hello Jim,
Here is the seizure man.
"Jerry Belknap a Dallas Morning News employee had a seizure near the TSBD- THE NEW YORKER
November 30, 1992 by Edward Jay Epstein
Since the spectator who suffered an epileptic seizure fifteen to twenty minutes before the motorcade's arrival was not identified by the Warren report, Jim Garrison had the hypothesis that the man was part of paramilitary group in charge of diverting the attention with a simulated seizure.
Actually, that man was Jerry Boyd Belknap, a Dallas Morning News employee. He had taken medication to cure a head wound he had suffered in a car accident when a child. He was rushed to Parkland hospital in an ambulance, but left the hospital without receiving any treatment. Later, Belknap declared he had left Parkland because of Kennedy's arrival shortly after he was admitted."
The only testimony I remember was:
Mr. Liebeler.
Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what did you do?
Mr. Smith.
I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment.
Mr. Liebeler.
Were there any other officers there in connection with this fellow that had the epileptic fit?
Mr. Smith.
Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman.
Mr. Liebeler.
Do you remember his name?
Mr. Smith.
I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of it before this even.
Mr. Liebeler.
He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a motorcycle or had a car?
Mr. Smith.
No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man when arrived at the scene.
Mr. Liebeler.
So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets?
Mr. Smith.
Yes.
Mr. Liebeler.
How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston?
Mr. Smith.
Three of us.
Mr. Liebeler.
Who were the other two men?
Mr. Smith.
W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway.
Mr. Liebeler.
How did you station yourself when you got there?
Mr. Smith.
Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic up.
Not that it didn't happen just it is not in the record. Anyone else know of any nurses that were in the plaza?
Ed
Ed, Sorry if you took my post about the Iowa badge, literally. I just posted that as a "general" idea of what i meant. Meaning being, that you wouldnt wear some "type of out of state badge", while trying to represent some other type of unit in Dallas. I appologize if you too it that way. No harm, no foul. Merry Christmas! thanks-smitty
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Guys I still think i am seeing a nurses uniform on the lady and i definitly believe she is with " hat badgeman".
Anyone else see the uniform?
There was testimony of a nurse administering to the epeleptic guy before the motorcade showed up and they are both walking from that general direction { the corner of Elm and Houston }.
jim
To throw in my 2 cts. worth, any badge that was used that day to "imitate" any type of offical, wheather it was suppose to be a policeman or G-man, it had to match his position. That person surely wouldnt be wearing a "firemans" titled badge if he was supposed to be a G-man, Lets face it, if they were S.S, FBI, or anyone else in the "G", they wouldnt be wearing a badge, at least visably. Now on the other hand, If they were supposed to be a Dallas PD official, they would have to have a badge that represented the "police", or something to that effect. Most of what was heard that day was that people attempting to get to the fence, or behind it were stopped by men showing Government ID's. There very well were "policemen" there that day doing what they needed to do, but as i said, the badges had to match what position they held. [They surely wouldnt be wearing an "Iowa Police" badge and try to represent a Dallas patrolman!] Anyone from the Dallas area, or surrounding areas, would probably know what an area badge looked like, or resembled. From most views, there didnt seem to be many people at that time who wasnt related, knew, or werent personal friends with someone from the Dallas PD. Im sure most people knew [maybe not exactly] what a Dallas PD badge looked like, or what it closely resembled. I think the badge shown in the first post most closely resembles the one worn by the "unknown" policeman", cutting across the infield with the "woman". Im not positive, but I dont think they would go to the trouble of making "molds" and creating their own version of the desired badge they wanted. It would be a "generic" type badge, readibly available, that they could put on their hats, that said "Police", and get away with, in a quick glance. God forbid they got put in a position with a bunch of legitament Dallas PD patrolman or detectives, that werent "in on" the whole affair. They had to make their assigned "moves", do their jobs, and get out. Quick, clean, and fast, before anyone caught on to their "game". Just my opinion, FWIW
thanks-smitty
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This is likely not the place to post this, but I cannot for the life of me understand why for the last two days my posts are showing up twice. I hit the "add reply" button only one time. This never occurred in the past, but started yesterday. Sorry everyone.
Anyone else having this problem?
Dawn
I have had this problem for months. So do most members. I spend a lot of time deleting people's double posts.
Knock on wood, Ive never had that problem. I dont know if this makes a difference or not, but I always "preveiw post" before I add it to the list, to check my spelling [awful!] and for any other corrections i might need to make, but maybe it makes a difference. ??? I dont know, I figured I would throw in my 2 cents, FWIW.
thanks-smitty
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Thomas H. Purvis
One could, if they so desire and have no other capabilities, speculate til hell freezes over in regards to the "Sign Problem", and still never have the answers.
Just more confusion and roaming in the land of the lost.
However, if one takes the time to research the matter, then there is acually very little that is difficult to understand in regards to the sign removal as well.
I do speculate and assure you I have many other - as you say "capabilities' and I will speculate till Hell freezes over as regards the "Sign Problem" and until
I am satisfied that I have the answers or at least know that there are no answers.
Why don't you, with all your "research" of the "matter", put us all out of our misguided and moronic-lack-of-understanding-misery
give us the benefit of your "research" of the "matter" and tell us all in this forum what you
have found that tells you there is " acually (sic) very little that is difficult to understand
in regards to the sign removal as well."
EBC
Why don't you, with all your "research" of the "matter", put us all out of our misguided and moronic-lack-of-understanding-misery
give us the benefit of your "research" of the "matter" and tell us all in this forum what you
have found that tells you there is " acually (sic) very little that is difficult to understand
in regards to the sign removal as well."
Although most of what you ask was done a considerably time back, it is highly unlikely that it will put you
"out of our misguided and moronic-lack-of-understanding-misery", as one has to take the time to read and understand it.
And, until such time as you have studied the WC and:
1. The Adjusted Position
2. The Alteration of Survey Data
3. The multiple run-through's during the re-enactment
4. The multiple filming of the re-enactment from different angles and elevations
5. The jacked up rifle/filming position in the sixth floor window
Then, it is most unlikely that you will also grasp the necessity for removal and replacement/relocation of the road sign just prior to the WC's re-enactment of the assassination.
And, it also helps to know that neither Time/Life nor the US Secret Service or FBI originally had any great difficulty in location of the approximate point of impact for the first shot fired.
(which information I also provided a considerable length of time back)
Thanks again for your posts and thoughts on this subject. Not being as knowledgeable, as others, and still trying to "fill in" some questions that always seem to nag us, one thing has become clear for me. The WC and others must have been going crazy trying to figure out what, and how, to make everything "jive" after finding out that people were asking alot of questions, and what a big part the Zfilm was starting to play. They had to somehow, to the best of their capabilities, come up with a solution to make everything they "claimed" happen, and what really did happen, come to a comparison that closely matched. But they also had to worry about all of the other "films" taken that day, along with pictures, didnt pop-up and completely "blow-up" what they were going to put forth. They surely didnt figure on "researchers" to be still checking and comparing the Zfilm to this day! It is painfully obvious that they went to great lengths to ensure, to the best of their ability and talents in 63' that what they said happened, was backed up, at least enought to satisfy the public. Considering that the film wasnt released publically until years later, thay still had to know that eventually they would have to face up to it sooner or later. Many of you here have proved years ago what was thought to of happened, did.............the "probable" altering of the film. I ,at least, have gotten alot of good information that i didnt have before, from this thread. It has also become painfully obvious to me that the film WAS altered, at least to some point to prove their findings.
It makes me wonder, at least, as to what other things the WC and others did, that we as a "group" havent found or touched on yet, to fall into their "version" of events?? I want to thank all of you that have posted here, and your input into my questions that were asked here. They all have helped me considerably. Just my opinion FWIW
thanks-smitty
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The saga continued!
Now that there is a little more attachment space, this can continue.
Thanks for printing those copies. Isnt it funny that they wanted the "exact" dimensions, and "exact" height, but not the position???? Because they would put the sign where they "needed" it to be!! The other sign down Elm further, I assume, the one in front of the fence and before the overpass, was completely disregarded, and no dimensions, or position, was wanted or needed, as it didnt play into the shooting zone or Zfilm. Thank you very much again Tom for printing them. These go a long way in "showing" what the WC and others were up to concerning the Zfilm and the others taken that day. Just my opinion FWIW
thanks-smitty
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"First Day Evidence and Dealey Plaza"
Michael Parks..
"The SecretService performed a reenactment on 12/5/63 of the shooting of President Kennedy at Dealey Plaza. A survey plat was made for this event by Dallas County Surveyer Robert West and his assistant, Chester Breneman. This survey plat later became Commission Exhibit 585..
This was not the first reenactment performed by the Secret Service in Dealey Plaza. On 11/27/63, they hired the local CBS affiliate KRLD-TV...to film a pre-reenactment, the television crew filmed from Zapruder's pedestal. Within this automobile were two other camera-men, one filming back toward the Texas School Book Depository while the other films ahead toward the Triple Underpass.
We do not know why the Secret Service needed a pre-reenactment. At the time of this event, they had the Zapruder film and may even had a survey plat made on 11/25/63 for Time/Life by the same survey team of West and Breneman..The Official story during both the Secret Services reenactments was three shots, three hits.This story did not change until the following year with the advent of the Magic Bullet...
Breneman stated that they had a full set of Zapruder frames from which to work with during the December reenactment..The was furnished by Life Magazine to the Secret Service .These slide were used to place the shots on
CE 585.....
As was pointed out by Chuck Marler in his several informative articles on the topic, shots were placed at Zapruder frames 208, 276, and 358..
These locations were marked on the county survey plat and it became an official document..
It is quite obvious by even the casual observer that the Zapruder film does not support this shot placement.."
The next year to back up the theory of the Magic Bullet, the FBI and the Warren Commission held a third reenactment in the Plaza..on 5/24/64....the actors used the Zapruder film, and West and Breneman made another survey plat..CE 882...they move the Head shot to Z 313 from Z 358..
.It makes you wonder if they had the same film....???
The three yellow curb painted sections within the area where JFK was killed, the last yellow curb marker, is seen after Z 313 but before Z 358.....
" There is no way the Secret Service could have been off 45 frames in their head shot placement unless they viewed a different Zapruder film.."
'' Is there more proof the Stemmons sign was moved? Yes !
Surveyor ( Joe) West stated he later measured his plats and found the sign had been moved by more than ten feet..
Even assassination witness and Dealey Plaza groundskeeper, Emmett Hudson testified the signs in the Plaza had been moved ( shortly ?) after 11/22/63...He also said the head shot was almost in front of where he stood.
This would agree more with the Secret Service's Z 358 shot than the FBI's Z 313...
It appears the sign was moved to the FBI's position to match the altered sign in the Zapruder film...
All the Zapruder frames seen were chosen because of the closeness to the reenactment .."
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=34
http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...intro/sign.html
B..
Michael Parks..
"The SecretService performed a reenactment on 12/5/63 of the shooting of President Kennedy at Dealey Plaza. A survey plat was made for this event by Dallas County Surveyer Robert West and his assistant, Chester Breneman. This survey plat later became Commission Exhibit 585..
Nice that others are running around now claiming to know things of which they have for the most part only read.
The Secret Service re-enactment was done on December 2, 3, & 4th. The Survey Plat for their work was drawn up on 12/5/63, and Chester Breneman was not associated with this work.
We do not know why the Secret Service needed a pre-reenactment. At the time of this event, they had the Zapruder film and may even had a survey plat made on 11/25/63 for Time/Life by the same survey team of West and Breneman..The Official story during both the Secret Services reenactments was three shots, three hits.This story did not change until the following year with the advent of the Magic Bullet...
There was no "pre-reenactment" by the U.S. Secret Service.
Robert West survey had conducted the survey work for Time/Life on 11/25/63, (Survey Plat dated 11/26/63) which only located the first (behind the sign) impact as well as the Z313 impact points. This also happens to be the survey work which Brennan participated in and the reasons for requiring other work become quite obvious.
Mr. West had hired Breneman for this work, and Breneman did not even report measurements to the one/tenth foot.
All measurements were rounded to the nearest foot: as example, the window ledge of the sixth floor window was reported as being exactly 60 feet above the sidewalk below, when in fact it was 60.7 feet above the sidewalk.
In addition, all horizontal angles as well as vertical angles which Breneman computed were rounded to the nearest "minute".
At that time,(1963) most legal survey work required distances measured to the one-tenth foot and angles computed to the nearest "second". (degrees/minutes/& seconds)
For these (& other reasons)* the Time/Life Survey Plat, as drawn by Paul D. Hardin, does not and can not represent a legal document, and it is extremely lacking in detail as well as final accuracy.
This is the reason why most of the survey data as gained from the Time/Life work (measurements/locations/etc) can not be easily transferred to either the SS/FBI/ or even larger WC Survey
Plat.
*Breneman did not determine true street elevations at the designated shot impact points. In addition, all angles and distances were determined to street elevation with no consideration being given for the actual aiming point height of JFK's head which was in excess of 3 feet above the pavement.
Therefore, ALL angles, distances, and measurements are incorrect.
In addition to this, he gave no distances and established no station numbers along Elm St. which could be utilized for later reference
The ONE & ONLY U.S. Secret Service survey plat and re-enactment demonstrated that the impact point for the third/last/final shot was approximately 40 feet farther down Elm St. than was the impact point of the Z313 head shot.
Lastly, as with most "shared" information, I am just "sneaky" enough to not tell all.
Thus, the "Magic Bullet" theory was not the next step in the evolution of the genesis to the WC lie.
You see, when others were allowed this knowledge, I inadvertedly omitted the FBI Survey work and re-enactment of 2/7/64 in which the third/last/final shot down in front of James Altgens (40 feet past Z313 impact) was left in place, as was the impact point of the first shot, up behind the road sign.
The FBI was foolish enough to think that they could move the impact point of the Z313 shot, which they most certainly attempted to do.
I must assume that the yellow stripe on the Elm St. Curb ended this attempt to misrepresent the facts.
Breneman stated that they had a full set of Zapruder frames from which to work with during the December reenactment..The was furnished by Life Magazine to the Secret Service .These slide were used to place the shots on
CE 585.....
As was pointed out by Chuck Marler in his several informative articles on the topic, shots were placed at Zapruder frames 208, 276, and 358..
These locations were marked on the county survey plat and it became an official document..
Mr. West says otherwise, and had Breneman had anything to do with the U.S. Secret Service Survey work and Survey Plat of 12/5/63, then he most assuredly would not have been running around claiming stories of bullet impacts to the curb of Elm St. As there most certainly were none surveyed in during this, or for that matter during any other survey.
In addition, one would assume (unless he was drunk or on drugs) that had Breneman had anything to do with the U.S. Secret Service Survey work and assassination re-enactment of December 1963, that Breneman would have noticed that the U.S. Secret Service had added in a third impact point which Time/Life HAD NOT determined. And, this impact point for the third/last/final shot was some 40 feet past the impact point of the Z313 head shot.
As to Chuck Marlar, for the most part, he knows only what I allowed him to know!
The next year to back up the theory of the Magic Bullet, the FBI and the Warren Commission held a third reenactment in the Plaza..on 5/24/64....the actors used the Zapruder film, and West and Breneman made another survey plat..CE 882...they move the Head shot to Z 313 from Z 358..
As with anyone who is not provided with ALL of the facts, they tend to make mistakes which demonstrate same.
And since information was "selectively shared", Chuck & others had no idea that another "re-enactment" by the FBI was snuck in.
The WC was in fact the fourth re-enactment.
1. Time/Life of 11/25/63-------------Survey Plat 11/26/63
2. U.S. Secret Service of 12/2, 3, & 4/63------------------Survey Plat 12/5/63
3. FBI of 2/5 to 2/7/64-------------------------Survey Plat 2/7/64
4. Warren Commission 5/24/64*----------Survey Plat 5/31/64
*Mr. SHANEYFELT. On May 24, 1964, representatives of the Commission, Secret Service, and FBI reenacted the assassination, relocated specific locations of the car on the street based on the motion pictures, and in general staged a reenactment.
(personally, I would prefer the word "PHONEY" over that of "staged".)
In addition, many fail to recognize the "pre-re-enactment" work.
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; southwest corner. After he heard the shots, he hurried down along the curb of Main Street, but did not remember exactly where he was standing. On the basis of his motion pictures, we were able to analyze the pictures using his camera, and on the 23d of May of this year, during the survey, preparatory to the reenactment,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recognizing that there are some "new guy's" here, please do not accept what Chuck Marlar or for that matter anyone else has to say in regards to the survey work in Dealy Plaza.
That is unless of course they can provide copies of the actual survey's as well as the survey notes.
Try as I may, it seems a virtual impossibility to keep persons from wanting to jump off down into these rabbit holes, armed with only rumor; hearsay; innuendo; and half-truth.
Thanks again Bill, Bernice, and Tom for the detailed information. It is really beginning to appear that the "signs" had the WC and others worried, and took steps to verify their "work", by altering and changing sign locations, to match their version of the Zfilm. Getting back to the earlier post by Bill, I was always under the impression that the "Stemmons" sign was metal, as others were at this time. I have never heard of it being made of wood in anything I have read over the years. It "wood" [pun intended] be nice to know exactly when the sign was removed, and exactly by who. Just my opinion FWIW
thanks-smitty
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Michael,
When I used to spend hours studying the Z film, one of the very smallt hings I noticed was a slight dent/chip in the top left of the Stemmons sign from Z frame 183 onwards. It might just be my eyes playing tricks on me, but take a look and let me know what you think.
It might just be my eyes playing tricks on me
Nope! You apparantly have excellent eyesight.
Might want to take a look at Z200 and the slight "notch" on the right hand side.
Always helps to follow the vertical line which is just in from the outer edge of the sign, created by the difference in shade/texture, whether looking for the right notch, or for the left notch.
So if I understand you guys correctly - there must be several bullet holes in the road sign because you have managaed to take blurred frames and found what you think are "notches" in the road sign. If this is the case, then the same can be said about the road sign before the first shot was ever fired. I think that if you look at some other areas of the sign that you will find where light colored objects have bled over onto the sign, as well. I would also like to point out that in the days after the assassination and before the sign was ever removed .... there was a photo taken of some nuns lines in front of the road sign as they prayed for the fallen President and in that good clear photo you will be hard pressed to find even a scratch on the road sign - let alone bullet holes.
Bill Miller
Thanks all for the input! Its getting better and better. Thanks for the pics Bill. I can see what you are saying about the pictures being "blurred", and that is always what has been the problem with trying to actually "see" what was actually there. The information page you posted is good, and helps explain that it was a "marker" for the Z film. Where did this information sheet come from? The color picture is in good detail, and you can see pretty well what is going on. What struck me right away was on the back of the sign about 3/4 way down on the left hand side, about a foot or so in from the pole, appears to be a "major" [looking] dent, with the "hit" mark right in the center of it. When something is hit hard enough, whatever hits it can leave an impression in the center of the dent from the blunt force of the impact, but doesnt "break" through. Smething left a dent in the sign from being hit in the front. Its hard to see [the front of the B/W picture of the Nuns praying] beacuse it appears that it may have been hit in the dark [green i suppose] area of the sign, and it is hard to tell because it is in the dark area. I could very well be mistaken, but at least that is what it appears to be from my standpoint. The Nun picture carries a date of the 25th, so the picture could have been taken the same day [22nd] or up to the 24th i suppose. Do you know when it was taken? The reason I am asking is, as to when the sign was actually removed. It would be nice to know the "actual" date was that it was removed. I have to assume that it was the named "survey" company that was hired to remove it. Maybe in his "kept" notes and records he has it recorded as to when they removed it. It would be great to get access of those records, and see what was removed, put back, and removed completely. It may even tell of "relocating" a sign, as i posted earlier, to throw off peopledoing any investigating into the Zfilm, or any of the other films taken that day. Just my opinion FWIW. thanks-smitty
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John, It could be said that it was "set up", as the empty bottle of pills was found of Seconal, and the test report came back with Nebutal residue in the empty glass. Im sure both of the drugs are close, but can be found differently by a chemist. Who ever did it, "set her up the way she was found" but drugged her [forced] with a "load" of lethal drugs, more than enough to kill her, along with alchohol residue also in the glass. [there were 2 empty glasses?] I have to assume the pills were her prescription, and not someone elses. The killer used Nembutal, and left the Seconal bottle as evidence. The set up was that she was to have been found "looking good" with eyelashes, make-up, blouse, etc..... indicating that she committed suicide, but wanted to be found looking "glamourous", as Im sure she was vein, to some point. There also is a descrepancy on the "found" times in the reports. I dont know if this had anything to do with it or not. Just my wild guess for now.
thanks-smitty
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Michael,
When I used to spend hours studying the Z film, one of the very smallt hings I noticed was a slight dent/chip in the top left of the Stemmons sign from Z frame 183 onwards. It might just be my eyes playing tricks on me, but take a look and let me know what you think.
Thanks for all of your input guys. Nice attachment Tom, thanks. Adam, I will try and see if i can pick it out in the "copy" of the Z film i have. I have tried to check all photos i have of the sign, but as of yet, nothing. The pictures I have are "grainy", and hard to pin point anything. I have tried to see "light" holes through the sign, but like I said, its hard to make out. Its a shame noone that i know of, didnt get a real good "shot" [no pun intended] of the sign that day. Raymond, that could be a good possibliity. I dont know if the location of the sign would have extended that far to interfere with such a shot. I have a picture I took out of the sixth floor window [one over to the west] i can go back and look at it, and see if it might have been close. Estimating of course, the location of the sign back then. [maybe Ashton could "recreate" an image of the sight line with sign in place, with his "magic imaging machine" LOL!] I dont believe I have seen any photos from the window to Kennedys location with the sign still in place. There are alot of things that will go unanswered, as im sure that we all have nagging questions about. Such as the "pool of blood" found on the sidewalk by the pergola. I have heard that photos were taken of it that day, but as of yet, have not seen them anywhere. FWIW
thanks-smitty
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Good Day.... In the Altgens #5 photo, does it look to you that the dark haired white woman wearing a dark coat with a large purse or bag, located on the Houston east sidewalk in front of the Records building, standing photo-apparently directly beneath the "L" and the "E" of the "CLEAN" light-colored truck parked just south of the Dal-Tex, is in the act of preparing to or capturing a photo or movie with the camera up to her right eye?
Don, it very possibly could be. It sure does appear that way, doesnt it? I have thought for a long time, there were other people filming that day during the assassination. I beleive that the assassination may be "proved" to a point, that it was a conspiracy, and may actually show what, and how it happened by someone elses "never seen" film. Not everyone is after money. There may be some man or woman out there with this film, and has never came forward because of fear of harm, or fear of getting involved in such a horrible Government issue. It may very well be that they will not ever let it be seen until they are gone, and at that point, some son, daughter, or relative, may come forward with what everyone has always waited for. If it does happen that way, it will be because of greed probably, against the persons wishes. Their family may have never known of the film, but will upon their death. It is possible. Just my opinion. FWIW
thanks-smitty
Here are some A#5 photo crops featuring the woman....
Best Regards in Research,
Don
Don Roberdeau
U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker
Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly
ROSEMARY WILLIS Ultra-fast Headsnap Westward Towards the "Grassy Knoll" Discovery
BOND Photos Do Not Timestamp GORDON ARNOLD's Presence on the "Grassy Knoll" + Addendum
AOL Homepage.... "4 Principles"
T ogether
E veryone
A chieves
M ore
"Drehm seemed to think the shots came from in FRONT OF or BESIDE the President."
(my EMPHASIS)
----CHARLES F. BREHM, a combat gunfire experienced, United States Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness, quoted only minutes after the attack, and while he was still standing within Dealey Plaza (11-22-63 "Dallas Times Herald," 5th & final edition)
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John, without asking questions, my take is that he stepped on the trap, [even if it was his, it would have been hidden under the snow-maybe he forgot it, or his son had placed it there] almost surely cutting his leg off, deciding that his leg couldnt be saved, finished cutting it off with his knife, after applying the tourniquet. He then tried to crawl to safety somewhere/somehow, and finally bled to death there. But now you say he was murdered. Well, I would say the same thing, only his son found him shortly after it happened, and because for what ever reason his son had against his father, untied the tourniquet, and let him bleed to death, reapplied the tourniquet, and found the other men. His tracks had to have been at the site, as he said he "had" found him already. I could ask a bunch of questions, but i wont at this point. I have to assume there was no other tracks at the scene, and no other fatal wounds. thanks-smitty
You need to concentrate on the knife.
John, were there any other "wounds"? If no other wounds were evident, im going to have to think about this one! thanks-smitty
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I have added another crime puzzle "The Mystery of the Missing Leg".
John, I would have to agree with Greg on his point. I dont think that a "battery operated" small type tape recorder could possibly simulate the 'actual" sound of an "actual" shot being fired in the other room, even at full volume. I have to assume that it was this type of recorder, for him to be able to retrieve it in the way described without someone noticing. Just my opinion. I dont mean to put a damper on your "mysterys", and having fun with this! lol! FWIW
thanks-smitty
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There are a few peculiarities in this story, but I can't see a definite answer. The amount of blood around the body is suspicious, given that a tight torniquet had been applied. That's assuming it wasn't applied where the body was found. Was there much blood leading up to the body from the bear trap?
Also, it's odd that this man, as owner of the land, wasn't aware of the location of that particular bear trap. In any case, it would have been noticeable due to the chain holding it to the tree.
There's something in there I'm missing, I'm sure ...
John, without asking questions, my take is that he stepped on the trap, [even if it was his, it would have been hidden under the snow-maybe he forgot it, or his son had placed it there] almost surely cutting his leg off, deciding that his leg couldnt be saved, finished cutting it off with his knife, after applying the tourniquet. He then tried to crawl to safety somewhere/somehow, and finally bled to death there. But now you say he was murdered. Well, I would say the same thing, only his son found him shortly after it happened, and because for what ever reason his son had against his father, untied the tourniquet, and let him bleed to death, reapplied the tourniquet, and found the other men. His tracks had to have been at the site, as he said he "had" found him already. I could ask a bunch of questions, but i wont at this point. I have to assume there was no other tracks at the scene, and no other fatal wounds. thanks-smitty
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Interesting point on Stemmons sign. I too have always wondered if a bullet had hit this sign and
wondered also about why and when and by whom the sign was removed. Where is it now?
If a bullet or projectile had hit the retaining wall ( or any other structure in Dealey Plaza would it
(the wall or any other structure) have been removed?
EBC
Eugene, thanks for your input. I know that when I was there, you can see the "supposed" bullet strike on the south side of Elm manhole cover concrete form. It looks to be coming from the Records building, or the Dal-Tex building. If it was a bullet strike, and they knew it, they left it alone all these years from what i know of it. The curb where Mr. Tague was standing was left alone until one of the "Commisions" had it removed for testing, I believe. We know of the "supposed" bullet stikes in the south side grass that was checked by Ptl. Foster, Det. Walthers, and the "unknown" FBI guy, but there was nothing permanant left there. If the sign was "hit", it was destroyed long ago, im sure, because of the evidence left from it. All evidence was hidden and repaired immediately on the limo, so we know they were covering up whatever they could as soon as possible for evidence reasons. Thinking on the sign removal, if it was hit, or was a "marker" for the Zapruder film, why didnt they replace [an exact replica] it later in a "slightly different" place, say a foot or so, one way or another, just to throw off anybody looking for evidence later on checking the film? They could have said they removed it while they were doing their "investigation" as I stated earlier, and replaced it when they were done their work there. Why wasnt it replaced? Seems odd, I would think, as it drew alot of attention at the time that it WAS removed. Just another question to the "puzzle". Just my opinion, FWIW
thanks-smitty
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Very interesting topic... further, does anyone have an image that shows the purported damage to the sign after the shooting?
John, good question, Ive never seen anything either, but have heard of people "SEEING" a hole in it. [that bullet would have to be accounted for] I know this seems like an old, beat to death question..........but has there been anything positively answered about it? Not that I know of. To me, its like the Tippit killing. Lots of speculation, but nothing in concrete. Everybody seems to have their "own" answer to the nagging questions, but to me, this just starts these crazy "solutions" people come up with. I would just like to hear from some of the more "knowledgeable" people here, what their answers are to the sign removal. Like I said, if its been discussed before here, PLEASE send me to the previous postings, if possible, and I'll be GONE. I have heard that the sign was there for a few days after the shooting, and I have also heard that it was removed within a day. I have also read somewhere that the "city/county" workers removed it, and Ive heard it was just "gone" one day, with no one witnessing its removal. I have thought several things, other than the above. If there was nothing "sinister" about it, then maybe they removed it because it may have been in the way of "officials" taking investigation photos of the area and site. It looked pretty large, so I can see that it would get in the way of people taking photos from the ground/elevation, for the investigation. But then again, it has to be figured into the whole picture because it was there during the shooting. I can see where it was a "marking site", for the lack of a better term, for the Zapruder film if it WAS altered. One thing is for sure, from Zapruders film, [the one we see] Kennedy was deffinately hit while he was behind the sign. As he re-appears, he has his arms up, and is deffinately in distress. Not to "beat a dead horse", but I would just like to hear some other "versions" of why it may have been removed. Just my opinion. FWIW
thanks-smitty
.... 
William Cooper - Behold a Pale Horse
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Great post Paul. I had similar thoughts myself. Plus by the time Kennedy was hit the Connallys, were down on the floor. I agree with the left side hit theory myself, as I posted earlier. It also sounded like the shell would have been out in front of his head when, and if he shot. [he wouldnt have shot with the gun that close to his body] As you said, it would have ejected cleanly out of the car. If you think about it, alot of things would fit into that scenerio. It just seems far fetched to many, as it is a theory that isnt looked at that much, or thought about. Just my opinion FWIW
thanks-smitty